VTech community heads to church to ask God for answers
posted at 10:50 am on April 23, 2007 by Allahpundit
Looks like a slow news day. Might as well see if we can get a 500-comment thread going.
Tough questions. Luckily, the world didn’t end so God’s off the hook:
Through it all, [Pastor Tommy] McDearis told his congregation Sunday morning, he struggled to control his emotions — to understand how God could let something so vile happen to so many good people.
“I was sitting at the Inn at Virginia Tech, waiting for the next broken family to come in, and a woman pulled my badge … and said, you know it seems like God could have done better,” McDearis said. “I wanted to be able to argue with that woman. But the truth of the matter was that I knew just what that woman was feeling.” [Me too. -- ed.]…
At the Blacksburg Presbyterian Church, Associate Pastor Susan Verbrugge told her congregation that she too was having a hard time dealing with the shootings. During a recent morning walk, Verbrugge said, she stopped on a hill overlooking a normally stunning city skyline. Everything looked gray.
“I didn’t see anything beautiful,” she said. “My heart had been numb since Monday.”
She screamed into the wind at God: “This is your world, so do something about it!”
That moment, she noticed woodpeckers, and saw beauty again. She realized that the world would mend, and that “God started with my heart.”
Great news for her heart, not so great for Liviu Librescu and Ryan Clark. Meanwhile, another VTech student died this weekend when his car flipped over. He had come home to be with his family after the massacre on Monday.
Blowback
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Hmmmm, it’s almost as if this “God” fellow is just a figment of many wishful, traumatized imaginations…
Enrique on April 23, 2007 at 10:55 AM
For someone who doesn’t believe in the existence of God, you sure enjoy using Him as a chew-toy.
spmat on April 23, 2007 at 10:55 AM
to ask “how could God allow this to happen” is of the most ignorant arguments that can be made about God.
that Presbyterian church has to be a PCUSA church, which is very liberal and teach hardly anything from the Bible. Its basically just a ‘feel good’ denomination. Actualy that line of theology is getting closer and closer to the type of Heresey that led to the protestant reformation.
jp on April 23, 2007 at 10:56 AM
I knew Enrique would have my six.
Allahpundit on April 23, 2007 at 10:56 AM
Really, why? Because we all have free will? I thought God had a master plan, though.
Allahpundit on April 23, 2007 at 10:57 AM
The living God is a Soverign God
jp on April 23, 2007 at 10:58 AM
Atheist conservatives need to stick together. Only black conservatives have it worse. (Or do they?)
Enrique on April 23, 2007 at 11:02 AM
Hmmmm…an internet debate over religion.
This should go well.
Slublog on April 23, 2007 at 11:04 AM
Oh.My. Do pastors even read their Bibles anymore? When did God become responsible for man’s sin?
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:07 AM
No, AP, we don’t have free will. The Bible doesn’t teach that. It teaches man’s free will is enslaved to sin.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:09 AM
Wow.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:11 AM
Yup. I tried to ask that very question once – why atheists like Allahpundit never stop talking about God – but he got a little miffed.
Just AP doing his usual poke-at-the-Xtians schtick. Move along people. Nothing (new) to see here. You’ll find the same thread next week, too. Good for a chuckle, I guess.
Professor Blather on April 23, 2007 at 11:20 AM
I’d bet every penny I have that this pastor is in a Presbyterian PCUSA church. They are extremely liberal, they support Palestine over Israel for example…
You’ll find the answers to these questions in a PCA or ARP Presbyterian Church, and their may be a few holdouts that still read their bibles in the PCUSA denomination, they’ll eventually join the PCA branch in all likeliehood
jp on April 23, 2007 at 11:20 AM
I’m an OPCer myself, I know all about it.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:22 AM
The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a horrific event but look at the results.
We can’t wrap our puny brains around such tragedies.
Valiant on April 23, 2007 at 11:22 AM
sure enough, PCUSA….
here she is: http://blacksburgpres.org/susan.shtml
jp on April 23, 2007 at 11:23 AM
L. O. L. ! Exactly!
The Ritz on April 23, 2007 at 11:24 AM
Aren’t they praying to mother, daughter, womb now?
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:24 AM
spmat and the afa answered this already.
the children were killed because you don’t pray enough. it’s your fault, and if you keep it up, you can be guaranteed that more will die.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 11:25 AM
Hilarious! Most Christians certainly won’t find their positions in that statement, jummy.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:27 AM
ARP – in the middle of Reading Francis Schaeffers trilogy as we speak. Then I got to read “Godless” by coulter, because she is speaking at this evangelical thing a friend bought be tickets to next month.
jp on April 23, 2007 at 11:27 AM
Wow. This is, to me, the toughest question to answer about God. Especially to those that don’t believe in him in the first place.
I think the real problem here is that first you have to answer the question of God’s existence before you can move to his whether or not he is good. Since you don’t believe in God at all, none of the answers on “why do good things happen to bad people” will make any sense at all to you.
greenpiece on April 23, 2007 at 11:28 AM
For Someone who doesn’t exist, Allahpundit sure does spend a lot of time on Him…
It’s almost impossible to prove a negative.
unamused on April 23, 2007 at 11:28 AM
He does. We simply are incapable of understanding it. I know that’s not a particularly helpful or comforting notion in times of real trouble and distress, but it happens to be the truth I’ve stumbled on by faith. I also believe in an ultimately benevolent and loving God (also a leap of faith), but hey, it helps get me through the rough patches.
Atheists (in my limited experience) use God as an intellectual chew toy because they are still asking questions about Him, still unsure, deep down, with the finality of their conclusions about whether or not He exists. I don’t mind hearing the questions, even the fist shaking and shouting. It just means you (we) are human.
Fred on April 23, 2007 at 11:28 AM
Yes, and I answered that question once, too — I do stop talking about him. Posts about atheism are probably 1% of my total output.
Besides, your argument is the religious equivalent of “if you disapprove of homosexuality, you must be secretly gay.” I could just as easily claim that the reason Bryan posts occasionally about religion is because he secretly doubts God’s existence and is trying to convince himself. But (a) I don’t believe that and (b) it’d be hugely insulting to him. Just like you’re being hugely insulting to me right now, which is perfectly acceptable since I don’t have the super religious-sensitivity forcefield that shields religious people from too-harsh criticism. So, flame on.
Allahpundit on April 23, 2007 at 11:29 AM
you should confront the afa about it then. write them a letter. let them know that they do not represent your views.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 11:32 AM
Man goes on a killing rampage, but God is assigned the blame. Well, at least we know we’re incapable of doing anything about it ourselves.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:33 AM
expressing atheism as a confession of faith, which is basically what they are doing, is a relatively new thing. You can begin to understand how this happened if you study what happened in the 1800′s with philosophy in Western World…Francis Schaeffer breaks this down brilliantly in his famous philosophical works. “The God who is there” “He is there and he is not silent” and “Escape from Reason”….very fascinating subject
jp on April 23, 2007 at 11:34 AM
AP, you are an atheist? Swear to God?
Dr. Gecko on April 23, 2007 at 11:34 AM
There’s a petition underway to stop Pat Robertson from speaking. I’ve signed it. Falwell and Robertson don’t represent anything more than a minority, a small on at that. That’s the big, big difference between Christians and the Taliban, jummy.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:35 AM
You got it right on! I often make this point as well…why do so many atheists find such a fascination with 1) criticizing God or Christianity or 2) trying to convince others not to believe? Is it really that bothersome?
ballz2wallz on April 23, 2007 at 11:35 AM
“How Should We Then Live?” is good as well.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:36 AM
go in peace then. the fact is that i used to think that the vast majority of christians thought like you. i only started being an a**hole to them when i realized that most instead think like katherine harris.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 11:40 AM
Whats the difference between God “allowing” the VT massacre or actually commanding it as he did in Eze 9: 5-6 or Num 31:17
9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man whom is the mark…………
I personally think God should do his own dirty work rather than command his followers to do so. But that’s just me. Shrug.
frreal on April 23, 2007 at 11:42 AM
Ahh, I see its time for AP to try to poke Christians in the eye with a sharp stick again. If our faith was so shallow as to be shaken by silly little “gotch ya’s!” like this, it wouldn’t be worth much, would it?
It would be kind of funny if it wasn’t so tragic.
Fatal on April 23, 2007 at 11:42 AM
Who’s Katherine Harris? I think you’ll find that, while Jerry Falwell types are annoying, they’re the least of your worries.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:43 AM
Yes, we do. Yes, He does. It was Cho’s free will to become a monster. If God “prevented” every such act, it would make Him inconsistent if He then didn’t go all the way and prevent every evil, in thought or deed. And then there is NO free will.
God wishes to be loved. That would have no meaning if He was not loved freely. Of all that He is able to create, the one thing He cannot create is a being who loves Him freely and certainly. For if there would be no doubt about the creation’s affection, then again, there is no freedom.
God must think it so important to Him that beings choose freely to honor and love Him, that He allows us to choose against Him as well. That does not make it God’s fault people do evil. But choosing to think He doesn’t exist because things don’t always go as you want is a fairly weak position.
Every time in our lives that things go wrong around us, we can choose to pity ourselves, or we can watch to see what God brings of those events, if we have eyes to see.
Freelancer on April 23, 2007 at 11:44 AM
Aww, Goddammit, are we really gonna start a religion/atheism slapfight over the recently buried? Never mind, I already think I know the answer…
Bad Candy on April 23, 2007 at 11:46 AM
You’re right, AP. This is a 500-comment thread. I’m just gonna prop my feet up and enjoy the ride. :-)
Chris L. on April 23, 2007 at 11:48 AM
My contribution to the first 1000 post thread!
You could just as easily redefine the above statement to say
“You got it right on! I often make this point as well … why do so many self identified Christians find such a fascination with 1)Criticizing faiths or denominations they are not part of or 2)trying to convince others that they will burn in hell and are worshiping the devil if they have a different faith? Is the thought of judgment/retribution what gives you the most joy in your beliefs?
Bradky on April 23, 2007 at 11:48 AM
Here come the Arminians to undermine my argument.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:50 AM
I think it’s the fact that we will participate in the new heavens and the new earth. Yes, there is a coming judgment. But it sounds like you already know that.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:51 AM
Calma, Calma, AP.
That question of “bad things happening to good people” goes to the very foundation of ones beliefs. How one answers it defines how strong their belief in God actually is.
It’s pretty easy to believe in a just and fair God when things are going well. When events come along that seem grossly unjust or obsenely unfair, it’s for sure natural to wonder why things happen the way they do.
If you believe we’re all victims of fate, and ascribe to the “shit happens” mentality, well, you will try to understand through analysis of the facts. For those who believe in the “master plan” of a higher diety, the only answer is “it is God’s will” and must be for a reason I will never understand.
Personally, I believe a person can experience events that shake the very core of their beliefs and make them lose faith for awhile. Or even forever.
Still, why does God allow these things to happen? Is it a test to validate ones faith? If so, couldn’t He find a more benign way to do it?
BacaDog on April 23, 2007 at 11:53 AM
jummy,
You certainly have the right to feel offense at a particular statement coming out of the AFA, and I am not likely to be one defending them, since it’s well nigh useless for a religious organization to make such pronouncements in the non-religious public.
Do I believe that a societal increase in godlessness creates an environment where such evil becomes more likely? Yes. Do I believe for a moment that such an opinion can then be applied as proof that godlessness in America led directly to Psy-Cho’s rampage? I’m not that foolish.
If you remove from society the foundational moral absolutes of faith, you leave a vacuum behind, into which anything can be drawn. But there is no way to say that Cho wouldn’t have done this in ANY societal circumstance. Mass murderers have existed at all times, and in all societies. Insanity doesn’t answer to anything, that’s sort of definitive.
All that said, which is more idiotic; A call to ban all firearms because of this massacre, or a call for more prayer?
Freelancer on April 23, 2007 at 11:54 AM
We need to separate whether we believe in God or not from whether we like how He handles things. The two are separate issues. I find that about the strongest objection many atheists have for God’s existence is, “well, why do little kids get sick and die?” — which has no bearing on the issue at all.
His Inscrutability is a doctrine that we need to bear in mind in times like this. This is the lesson that Job shared with us.
jdpaz on April 23, 2007 at 11:54 AM
Thou shalt not take the bait. :)
- The Cat
P.S. Pearls dude, pearls.
MirCat on April 23, 2007 at 11:56 AM
I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with Him for creating a world.” – CS Lewis
packsoldier on April 23, 2007 at 11:57 AM
This is neat, I made a huge response in the Cho thread along these lines. Doesn’t need a complete rehash. I feel like I did 12 years ago when I first discovered alt.atheism on the usenet. There is another Michelle Malkin who is/was a very well thought of Atheist floating around in cyberspace. Had to do a double take when I first saw this Michelle Malkin on Townhall.com.
I digress. The pertinent part of my other rant as it relates to this topic goes something like this:
1-We don’t know God’s plan. This is obvious, because he hasn’t even told the people who are the most staunch believers. I suppose he has trust issues, which is fine when you are omni-everything.
2-If we don’t know God’s plan, the we cannot be sure that Cho was not acting in accordance to God’s wishes.
3-Therefore, the VTech massacre might be a part of God’s plan and we should simply accept it and not attempt to discern what is unknowable, as no one has access to the Plan.
Faith is neat.
Krydor on April 23, 2007 at 11:59 AM
Whoa whoa, PRC, I don’t think we disagree. I’m not in the “God did it to get your attention” camp. Cho acted on his own, God didn’t order him. God also wasn’t sleeping when it happened. My whole point was that God is aware, but He doesn’t go around stopping evil from happening, because He chose to grant us free will.
Freelancer on April 23, 2007 at 11:59 AM
I think Tammy Bruce has it worse. She is probably the most unlikely bedfellow of us conservatives.
It’s not authentic for you atheists to ask “why do bad things happen to good people.” If you don’t believe in God, then good or bad are merely arbitrary lables that you assign to time/space events. Good according to whom? Bad according to whom? All of it is 100% arbitrary.
For the atheist, the V-Tech shootings are the same morally speaking as one fish eating another and nothing more. If you add any “morality” beyond that you’re not being an authentic atheist.
When 3,000 Americans were murdered by Muslims, the Palestinians danced in the streets with joy. They thought that it was the morally right thing to do. What basis would you the atheist argue with them and say “no, it was wrong for you to dance for joy at our tragedy.” What standard or code would you apeal to? If moral truth comes from within then they have the perfect right to dance for joy because it’s “their” truth.
Atheists love to dwell in the metaphysically mushy middle ground but when driven to its logical conclusions atheism can’t stand up to the light of scrutiny. If you’re really interested in truth and not just being snarky on a blogsite, then get any one of Francis Schaeffer’s books (as earlier posts recommend) and debate his writings on atheism as he is the master. My 2¢.
Mojave Mark on April 23, 2007 at 11:59 AM
It seems to me that we don’t want to blame ourselves when we do awful things. We want to blame someone or something else. When other people do awful things, we seem to want to find answers apart from the obvious–there is evil in the world, and people do evil things, and it’s up to the rest of us to combat evil however we might. We want to blame society, or the killer’s family, or even the people he stalked. Especially for nonbelievers, when people do evil things, God takes the rap–How can an all-powerful God let things like this happen?
But if God always intervened when evil is afoot, what happens to our ability to choose our own course of action? What becomes of heroism and sacrifice? What is cowardice? Why do we teach good from evil, if God is just going to step in and stop evil using us as proxies? Do we become mere puppets in the hand of a protective God, to stop evil in its tracks?
If so, then we’re really not free in any meaningful way. And good isn’t really something to strive for and to teach, if we know that God is just going to grab our strings and make us do his bidding whenever evil strikes. If we’re puppets, nothing we do or say has any meaning at all. We’re just action figures acting out a stage play.
But that’s just not how it works. God gives us a way to understand good apart from evil, and he gives us choices when confronted with either one.
Bryan on April 23, 2007 at 12:02 PM
Where in Scripture does it say we have it? I can find several examples that say that we don’t.
It makes all the difference in the world in this type of argument. AP is using the ‘free will’ angle to bolster his argument.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 12:02 PM
This summarizes my view on religious beliefs.
Nonfactor on April 23, 2007 at 12:02 PM
I believe very strongly in God. I was just busting Allahp’s chops with my last statement.
I think it spiritual arrogance to argue with someone over the existence of God. Each man must make up his own mind, in the light of his own circumstances. The more us religious folk badger the atheists about religion, the more they see why they shouldn’t believe.
Sometimes I wish I DIDN’T believe… But my history has God’s grace written all over it.
unamused on April 23, 2007 at 12:04 PM
Free will is not expressly written of but implied by the Bible. God told Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He “chose” to do so. If we were God’s automatons, God would not have cautioned Adam and original sin would not have existed.
unamused on April 23, 2007 at 12:08 PM
Looks like myself and the other 2.1 billion Christians in the world have it all wrong. Thank you for setting us straight.
You cannot be a conservative and an atheist. One is the antithesis of the other.
“Conservatism is a relativistic term used to describe political philosophies that favor traditional values, where “tradition” refers to religious, cultural, or nationally defined beliefs and customs.” Wikipedia
repvoter on April 23, 2007 at 12:10 PM
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
GoodBoy on April 23, 2007 at 12:10 PM
Yeah, I’m getting that vibe too. I’m not gonna enjoy it though. I know, I know, I don’t have to read it, but I have to protest this. Its still not right to have a religion/atheism slapfight over these people’s funerals. Argument over policies is understandable, this sh*t can wait. Shame on Allah and Enrique for trolling and shame on the rest of you for feeding him. I’ll await my flaming or canned Allah response…
Bad Candy on April 23, 2007 at 12:10 PM
Unfortunately, Catholics at Virginia Tech won’t have any real place to turn to.
The Diocese of Richmond was for a long time one of the most liberal dioceses in the U.S., so for a long time the only real priests it attracted were gay liberals who didn’t believe in any of the Catholic doctrines and who looked a priesthood a social function. Therefore, no real Catholic wanted to become a priest in the Diocese of Richmond, and there is a huge shortage of priests.
Recently, the campus priest (a liberal rumored to be gay) was kicked out by the new more conservative bishop for alcoholism. Therefore, Tech of which 1 out of 4 students are Catholic has had no campus priest. Blacksburg itself only has one priest. When I was at Tech, they had four Catholic services on the weekend at War Memorial Chapel; now they have no priest.
When I was at Virginia Tech, to have a decent, conservative priest I had to drive with my friends to Roanoke to attend the Maronite Catholic service.
Contrast the liberal Diocese of Richmond with the very conservative, traditional Diocese of Arlington, which has numerous young priests and no shortage whatsoever. In fact, it has a surplus of priests.
januarius on April 23, 2007 at 12:10 PM
It was definitely present before the Fall, but not afterwards.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 12:11 PM
Good post, unamused. I’ve never been to church and somehow this thread rubbed me the wrong way. You will never change someone’s beliefs with the same tired arguments (both sides), so why bother? Mankind has been debating these issues since the beginning, we certainly won’t come to a consensus on HotAir.com. I’ve never even been to church, but threads like this make me queasy. The only thing they can possibly accomplish is make people angry at each other.
RW Wacko on April 23, 2007 at 12:13 PM
Not true at all. When people do “evil” things it’s not the fault of any specific “God,” but the fault of the person who did the deed. Find me an atheist who blamed a god for something happening–chances are you won’t, and if you do it’ll be one (like used in this post) asking a question about a specific god.
That’s what I think about people who are chained down by religion. Especially a religion where the god knows what will happen to you, will will you to die when he sees fit to fulfill his master plan. If you believe in that you aren’t really free to make your own decisions.
Fundamental question in moral philosophy. Euthyphro by Plato.
Nonfactor on April 23, 2007 at 12:16 PM
Thank YOU!
“A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?”
Bad Candy on April 23, 2007 at 12:19 PM
And the Lord said:
“Kevlar.”
BTW-
Why should the “Creator” have to wipe everyone’s noses after making hands?
Grow up and watch out for your own axes.
(Of the “Ismail Ax” detail, I found that “Ax” means “dust” (in a ME dialect)- while looking up info on the Yezidis, a group of minority Kurdish ‘heretics’ recently mass-murdered by Islamofascists in Iraq.)
profitsbeard on April 23, 2007 at 12:24 PM
Heather Macdonald from the Manhattan Institute had a great debate with Michael Novak about this subject matter. For all those interested:
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/am_spectator_HM_12-06.pdf
Zetterson on April 23, 2007 at 12:27 PM
Another flashback!
If God gave Adam and Eve “free will”, then he did not know the outcome of forbidding them to eat from the tree of knowledge. Let’s leave that aside, just for a second. This is where it gets philosophically interesting.
Ok, so the tree was called “The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”. Adam and Eve had no idea, I will repeat, no idea of good and evil as they had not eaten from the tree. Therefore, disobedience toward God cannot be seen as good or evil, as Adam and Eve had no framework to operate from.
The one thing that differs in Judeo-Christian God from the other religions I have studied is this: the notion of an all seeing and all knowing God. Throws a real wrench into the works once glaring and not so glaring contradictions come up.
Krydor on April 23, 2007 at 12:28 PM
If you play the live version of Jimmy Hendrix’s “Purple Haze” backwards you can faintly hear him saying ax and what sounds ismael….
Not sure what it meant – prophecy maybe?
Bradky on April 23, 2007 at 12:30 PM
that’s it. that’s all. there’s not else to say but what you said there, you see? any branch out from that is one which leads to “but cho is really just a scapegoat for…”
they are each irrational.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 12:35 PM
Bradky on April 23, 2007 at 12:30 PM
No, no Bradky. That was the Cowsills Live, not Hendrix.
BacaDog on April 23, 2007 at 12:35 PM
LOL
Bradky on April 23, 2007 at 12:37 PM
You mean the type of heresy that led to a different type of heresy?
Darth Executor on April 23, 2007 at 12:49 PM
I can’t think of anything more disprespectul than using this tragedy to bash it against the head of a belief many of the victims held.
Darth Executor on April 23, 2007 at 12:51 PM
There’s both. He sows, and at the end He comes to reap the good harvest. What that harvest ends up looking like depends on us.
Darth Executor on April 23, 2007 at 12:52 PM
PRCalDude:
Uh….then why Christ? It would appear that we have a choice, i.e. free will.
How many times have you heard “they hardened their hearts” in the Old Testament? The hardening of the heart is a choice.
The Old Testament says many times that Israel “turned away” or “turned toward” God. How is this not an expression of the free will of Israel? One cannot turn without a wheel. A wheel provides right and left turns. Free will.
Find an e-Bible and do a word count on the words “choose” and “choice”. You will be surprised that while we cannot choose if there is evil in the hearts of men (sadly, original sin made that outside the bounds of our choice), we can choose to fight it by being baptized in the blood of Christ–in effect, reborn.
The term temptation implies choice. If there were not choice, why would Satan tempt? Temptation would not exist if not for the free will of men.
unamused on April 23, 2007 at 12:53 PM
The hallmark of true atheism is not disbelief but active hostility toward religion in general and Christianity in particular. I’ve accepted it and moved on. Bye.
Buck Turgidson on April 23, 2007 at 12:55 PM
It is against my experience and faith to be without humility. I do a horrible job most of the time. But faith is something so important that I refuse to attempt to rig the ballot box.
My parents and grandparents shoved it down my throat for many years. I refuse to do that to anyone else.
However, my speech will not be devoid of my beliefs. I will talk of God and good and evil and Jesus and the Bible. What I will not do is try to convince someone of something that was a revelation to me. Were I able to give you my faith:
A. It wouldn’t be faith anymore
B. I would rob you of any revelation you have coming to you
Besides, I could be wrong about God. I acknowledge that. Faith without doubt is called fact.
unamused on April 23, 2007 at 1:00 PM
And the hallmark of many Self proclaimed Christians is active hostility against all people who don’t share their beliefs in totality. “Judgment is mine sayeth the Lord” doesn’t apply. It has distorted the original message Christ had in ways far more damaging to religion than any atheist could ever inflict.
Bradky on April 23, 2007 at 1:01 PM
Unamused,
Actually, I recall that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart after each plague. He totally subverted the King of Egypt’s free will to prove a point. Exodus 9:12
Krydor on April 23, 2007 at 1:06 PM
Christ redeemed men fully. They weren’t given a choice.
Romans3:9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
No one seeks God. Quite the opposite. If men had a choice, faith would be a work.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 1:08 PM
Leave God alone, when are we going to all agree to blame Bush?
RightWinged on April 23, 2007 at 1:09 PM
Not exactly something to be proud of.
How ignorant must one be to believe God is nothing but a puppet master, pulling strings and pointing fingers saying “you die, you die, and you die?” As if the world would be a better place if God somehow directed our lives like a Hollywood Director. Just what kind of world would it be if God prevented all death, took away all free will?
I went through this with my ex-wife when her father died of cancer and she lost all faith, blaming God for “allowing such a good man to die.” This question came after she spent her entire life begging him to stop smoking two packs a day. Of course, I guess it’s God’s fault for allowing him to smoke in the first place.
It’s always confused me why the same people who claim to want government out of our lives, want God to control their lives as if he’s operating a remote control.
I sometimes put myself in their position to try to understand, and immediately the question hits me; why does God allow so many otherwise smart people to be so stupid?
Gregor on April 23, 2007 at 1:11 PM
Heheh! Fight the real enemy!
Slublog on April 23, 2007 at 1:11 PM
I’m over this.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 1:15 PM
Actually it doesn’t say God LITERALLY hardened his heart. The impression I get when reading it is that Pharaoh was refusing to give in to God, so God kept whipping him until he gave up.
Darth Executor on April 23, 2007 at 1:18 PM
You’re thinking of the Cylons.
Bill C on April 23, 2007 at 1:24 PM
What you said.
wytammic on April 23, 2007 at 1:25 PM
Oh yeah? Well I’m even more over it!
Oh…sorry, got caught up in the excitement.
John from WuzzaDem on April 23, 2007 at 1:29 PM
This is just a rehash of the problem of pain. Pain exists because Man screwed the world up. God made a perfect world, put it in Man’s hand. Man broke it and is dealing with the consequences. God set up a system of maintenance in Jesus Christ. Evil exists and has the influence it does because of the active and passive decisions men make, not because of the actions of God. The only reason why the world isn’t awash in bloodshed and viciousness is because of the periodic intervention by God, either directly (which is very rare) or indirectly through His influence over the actions of His children.
Evil and suffering exist because of Man. Goodness, love, charity, et al. exist because of the grace of God. Were it not for God’s grace, the world would be far worse than it is.
Nice vicious combination of straw man and subtle ad hominem. Well done. For starters, they aren’t children. Second, it is the culture of hedonism and amorality born of the systematic disassembling of our heritage that has produced such excrescence as this. There is no absolute, objective truth. That truth existed and had real power when this country honored God and His law. My whole point is that the systematic and deliberate destruction of our nation’s firmly Christian heritage is not just correlated with the destruction of our formerly stable and growing society, it is the cause of it.
This nation grew and prospered under the rule of a Christian moral framework interpreted and enacted by free men. It was what civilized us, and the extent to which we deviated from that framework was the degree that we impeded that stability and growth (“Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.” — John Adams). The Spirit of ’76 was not a direct product of the Enlightenment any more than the depravity of the French bloodbath of ’89 was. It was an application of the principles of freedom enumerated in the New Testament through the mechanics of 18th century political philosophy. Locke et al. were the tools, not the motive force. Freedom tempered by a bottom-up Christian morality was the goal; the Enlightenment proved a valuable source of material to achieve that goal.
Now that framework is gone. This thread and its clinical excoriation of any reliance on that framework is an example of the degree to which we’ve left it behind. It demonstrates, by its presence within and influence over the only movement that still values our past traditions, the conservative movement, that the only thing standing between us and the moral vacuum of Europe is a tenuous reliance on reason and basic causality. Reason is a tool, not a motive force, and causality is a function of inference and even then is subject to interpretation.
We are not better off having left behind our Christian heritage. We’re far worse off. It is not the actions of Cho, but the glaring, sickening lack of denunciation of those actions that demonstrates how bad off we are.
spmat on April 23, 2007 at 1:35 PM
Insulting? Hardly. I’m just amused at human predictability, atheist and non-atheist alike. For instance, I know only one way to make sure you respond to me, AP – by commenting on the interesting paradox between your atheism and your poke-the-Christians game.
Your response was as kneejerk as the 500 comments you’ll get in this thread. Just kind of funny. And you get so touchy!
Which again confirms: atheism is a religion like any other. Challenge it, and its proponents get very, very sensitive.
By the way, a shrink would be fascinated that, although I didn’t (in this thread at least) allege that you’re a faux atheist, you leaped to that conclusion and assumed that’s what I was saying. Interesting reflex, don’t you think?
I was interested in this though: “I could just as easily claim that the reason Bryan posts occasionally about religion is because he secretly doubts God’s existence and is trying to convince himself.”
Out of curiousity … why dismiss that so quickly? Maybe you’re right.
Professor Blather on April 23, 2007 at 1:37 PM
It seems to me you have problems with personality flaws, not Christianty’s flaws. You list things that are a problem in every society, every religion, and hardly specific to Christianity. So while you have the opportunity to Bash Christians, how about choosing to be critical of something specific to Christians, and not a general attack on the flaws of human nature? You know very well this argument against Christians is weak, given that it is not even representative of most Christians.
ballz2wallz on April 23, 2007 at 1:39 PM
The fact that I’m perfectly in agreement with Nonfactor has me pretty troubled.
As I was just saying, it’s funny as Hell (er, Heck?) that these threads really are so predictable. And I cannot for the life of me figure out why either the religious or the non-religious work so hard to defend their beliefs.
We can’t KNOW the truth. We’ll all find out, one way or another, soon enough. I know what I believe. I bet I’m wrong on some of it. But I don’t get this need to argue it.
I especially don’t get the idea among many of the more religious types that they understand God. God – if He exists – is an ominpotent, omnipresent being so far beyond human comprehension that trying to understand Him is, well, kind of pointless.
But continue the scripture-fest. It’s always interesting reading.
Exit question: does God read message boards?
Exit question # 2: Does God POST on message boards?
Now where’s that thread on MKH? Now there’s an angel.
Professor Blather on April 23, 2007 at 1:42 PM
Theodicy is, perhaps, the toughest nut to crack. If God is the creator of everything, then God created evil as well. “Bringer forth of light, Creator of darkness, Maker of peace, and Creator of evil” Isaiah 45.
The best qualities of humans are most noticeable in the context of the worst depravities. Prof. Librescu’s noble actions are a particularly vivid example. It’s no different, however, from feeding the hungry in the sense that the good act could not have occurred if something bad hadn’t occurred first.
rokemronnie on April 23, 2007 at 1:43 PM
Serious question: How can one be Atheist and Conservative?
As I see it, certain morals and values lie at the heart of conservatism (political, economic, social, etc.), which originate in a Judeo-Christian ethic that has God at its center. There must be a basis for truth. Step back. Know the “Why?”
BTW, I’m ARP.
BNCurtis on April 23, 2007 at 1:44 PM
You shy away from insulting Bryan, but you don’t shy away from insulting other Christians you don’t know?
I think you’re getting a little sensitive in a thread you knew would end up like this. That’s why you posted it, right?
ballz2wallz on April 23, 2007 at 1:45 PM
That’s true.
John from WuzzaDem on April 23, 2007 at 1:46 PM
How do you know? lol
ballz2wallz on April 23, 2007 at 1:47 PM
Okay…
1. God creates the Garden of Eden for mankind.
2. Mankind rebels against God, allowing Sin into the world.
3. God says, now I gotta punish you for that, and I will do so by allowing the sin that you so desire to affect you.
4. Sin affects us in a negative way, and we get mad at God because He let us have free-will to sin.
5. Mankind says, I’m sorry God, that was a mistake. God says, okay, I’ll forgive you by sending a sacrifice to pay for your sin.
6. Christ arrives and sacrifices Himself for us.
7. Then we get mad at God because He did this all for us without giving us free will to save ourselves on our own merit.
8. What a bunch of selfish whiney pansies we are. We deserve what we get.
Lawrence on April 23, 2007 at 1:50 PM
Anyone reread “The Lord of the Flies” lately?
Connie on April 23, 2007 at 1:57 PM
Dude!
I am so on your side when people assume you can’t be a real conservative because you’re an atheist, but how would you like people to respond to your using the Va Tech massacre to argue God doesn’t exist?
Campus Crusade at Tech has a Korean group which reached out to Cho for four years. He consistently rejected their offers of friendship and community. Where was God at VTech, he was knocking on Cho’s door for four years waiting to be let in.
John on April 23, 2007 at 1:59 PM
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