i fear i won’t be waiting long.

jummy on April 22, 2007 at 10:18 PM

Ding! I believe we have a winner in the Biggest AssHole of the Thread contest.

Dummy, if you weren’t a perfect asshole before saying that, you are now. Congratulations!

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness,” do you not understand?

The person who wrote that, Thomas Jefferson, was a Deist, not a Christian.

that’s like saying the country was founded by people who didn’t drive automobiles and wore buckled shoes. so what? there was nothing else to be but christian.

jummy on April 23, 2007 at 12:07 PM

What part of “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness,” do you not understand?

“Let them revere nothing but religion, morality and liberty.” –John Adams

This is the point where I get snarky and revert to an earlier mindset that I thought I had outgrown. I know all about organized religions, as I was a member of one for a number of years. I know the Bible, and I can still quote it (not chapter and verse, thankfully). I can leave that aside, as you don’t know me, and I don’t know you. However, keep in mind that in discussions such as this, I know the theology pretty good for a layman.

What are some of the accomplishments of prayer versus actual work? There was a schism in the church way back when because of this. Faith versus acts, or somesuch (yes, I’m well aware of what went on, and I’m assuming you do as well). There was a vocal group that was pretty sure that just believing in Jesus as saviour wasn’t enough doing the things Christ would want done was more to the spirit of the thing.

Ideally, that means that instead of praying Jesus magically repairs a spinal cord, one would fund spinal cord research so that they could be healed. Instead of praying that the tornado misses the house, one would go to the storm shelter. Instead of praying that the flood magically stops before engulfing the town, one would prepare the town in case of flood.

Also, I don’t think the Apollo missions were launched on prayer. The Hoover Dam wasn’t built on prayer. The atom was not split via prayer. WWII wasn’t won because of prayer. So on and so forth. Remind me that if I need a wall built not to ask you. There might be some lifting involved, and while JC was a carpenter, I don’t think praying for him to bring his hammer will really get much done. (snark!)

I will give you this, though: St Augustine was a neat dude. That’s a whole ‘nother discussion at some other place.

I think this is wrong, but then I see that when God is in the schools education for the children is much better. Then again I teach in public schools and see how stupid these kids are.

If we could only get God into the churches once again. That would be enough. We don’t need to Christianize our schools, we need to Christianize our own churches.

I guess Private Christian schools believe they actually have a duty to God to teach the children vs. babysit them.

Sorry I jumped to conclusions.

PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 12:18

don’t be sorry. i meant to be offensive and controversial.

…but arent we creating a whip for our own backs by passing too many laws

sonnyspats1 on April 23, 2007 at 3:45 AM

your counterpoints are well-taken, but i frankly don’t see the church or religion making a difference. we are litigious now, aren’t we? there’s even a religiously-inspired coonstitutional ammendment to ban gay marriage. the problem has never been the abcense of the structure provided by the church. rather it has been neglect of the structure provided by the constitution and the abuse of the interstate commrse clause to abuse the sovereignty of the local to set it’s individual customs.

i said talibanists, not christians. there are plenty of rational christians. but you’re right. the better analogy would be to the leftwingers who’s response to 911 was to say we deserved it for not serving the un to the exclusion of our own interests.

jummy on April 23, 2007 at 12:11 PM

Fair enough. Sorry I jumped to conclusions.

Your comment shows a complete lack of understanding of Christian belief. Christianity does not teach that we are “magically” kept from bad things happening to us. That is an absurd assertion. Prayer is about our soul, not our body. Do physical miracles occur? Sure. But I think only those who have experienced them understand how and why they happen. And the phrase “two hands working accomplish more than one thousand hands praying” is equally absurd. Prayer is the most powerful tool we have on this earth. I have personally seen and experienced changes that was accomplished by prayer that a “thousand hands working” would never have accomplished. I suggest you read some of St. Augustine’s writings to understand the power of prayer.

I guess we’ve been reaping it for a long time.
Allahpundit on April 22, 2007 at 9:47 PM

YES AP, Satan has been at work for a long time.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.

May God sincerely Bless each and everyone of You. Amen

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:16-32 The New Covenant

Brilliant moral equivalence. You wouldn’t have a nation if it wasn’t for Christians like George Washington.

PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:00 AM

i said talibanists, not christians. there are plenty of rational christians. but you’re right. the better analogy would be to the leftwingers who’s response to 911 was to say we deserved it for not serving the un to the exclusion of our own interests.

Still doesn’t change the fact that you, sir, are the anomaly compared to the vast majority of our nation’s history, certainly its formative period.

You want Christians out of “your” party? We built your party.

that’s like saying the country was founded by people who didn’t drive automobiles and wore buckled shoes. so what? there was nothing else to be but christian.

We all enjoy much of the material over on the blog Hot Air. Michelle Malkin has worked hard, literally from her own closet to make it a success. Just the same, I have to mention that fellow Conservative blogger Allahpundit needs to recognize God is…

JFK was shot in 1963, therefore the assasination of JFK has something to do with school violence. If only we could un-assasinate the President! Wait, that doesn’t even make sense. We can’t unassasinate JFK.

Ok, what else can we look at. I mentioned that that whole Civil Rights thing was reaching its peak. Well, we can’t decivilrightify everyone. That would be silly.

So, what we have is removal of prayer in school as some sort of touchstone for the degradation of western civilization as embodied in God’s chosen nation. Well, not so much prayer in school as opposed to state sponsored prayer in school. Because, you know, they can’t really stop people from praying and God finds large groups praying loudly together to be a bunch of hypocrites. At least that what Matthew 6:5 says… Yes, I know, even the Devil can quote the Bible for his own nefarious plans.

Here’s something to ponder, and it will sound absolutely horrible: I gaurantee that in those classrooms, on that day, a whole bunch of people were praying. Strangely, God did not sweep down from the heavens and stop Cho. I’ll also bet good money that some of the people killed were devout Christians and were not spared.

I know, I know, we can’t question the strange ways of the Almighty. Perhaps Cho was His servant? You know, he only killed the most righteous so that God could fill a vacancy on the cloud subcommittee or something. We can’t question what God allows to happen unless we can twist it to match our narrative.

That’s exactly what is being done here. It’s not enough that a mentally ill freak was allowed to legally buy a couple of guns after avoiding involuntary committment. He probably could have snagged a couple of illegal weapons, anyway.

Yes, I am being absolutely insensitive to the belief structure of a whole bunch of people, some even on this board. I leave you with a couple of gems to think about: “The Lord helps those that help themselves” and “two hands working accomplish more than one thousand hands praying”.

(note: formatting does not appear to be working today.  I apologize beforehand.) Much has been made of "Where was God during the Virginia Tech shootings?"  First of……

The religion angle is used to explain our society’s “sorry state”.
In my opinion it has more to with the broken families that have increased in leaps and bounds in the last fifty years. 50% divorce rate means that a whole lot of kids grew up with more challenges and self esteem issues than any other time in history.

I’ll go out on a limb and make a guess but I would imagine that the number of people who identify themselves as “religious” in the divorced numbers mirror any other polls or studies about society in general.

If this steps on toes, sorry in advance but if you have been divorced due to reasons such as “couldn’t get along”, “just wasn’t working out”, “she/He was a *&*&” etc. and had kids then you own some of the blame for the current state of aimless or confused children in our society. Maybe you got religion after the first marriage and that is great, but to point at others who don’t share the same religious beliefs as you and say that is what is wrong with society is pretty hypocritical.

It’s an individual heart problem that drives people to crazed and evil acts like the VT shooting. It’s an individual heart problem that rejects Scripture and prayer. In other words the abandonment of behaviors showing devotion to Christ is not the cause, it’s the visible effect of the problem.

The American church-goer has been too busy confusing Christian belief with the American Dream to recognize the rise of the real problem among us well before prayer was banned in public schools. Decades before O’Hare’s suit bore fruit, the American church was already poisoning the soil by ritualizing rather than realizing her faith.

“faith” is a word that’s been over-used to the verge of uselessness, so let me be clear when I use it. Scriptural faith is the simple belief that God is real, and that He rewards those who are devoted to understanding and following Him. Most of us have trouble with one or both of those truths, and that’s what causes us to fail. If God isn’t real why should we listen to anything he “says”. If God isn’t rewarding, why should we put down our toys and pet dreams to follow hard after Him?

On the other hand, if He is real and rewarding – what fools we all are to substitute anything else in His place!

To all the members of my Christian family who read this – quit believing all our problems will be fixed by band-aid solutions like protecting public “moments of silence” or monuments to the 10 commandments. Instead, let’s concentrate on a diligent, devoted examination of our own belief in God’s existence and his overwhelming mercy and generosity made accessible to us through Christ’s sacrifice and intercession for us. If we are absolutely overcome by that reality, what we do in response will be a living monument to who God is, what He’s done, and the amazing goodness He’s promised to the one’s whose hearts He owns.

Hear, hear!

All this pseudo-righteous “we reap what we sow” crap is nothing but dishonest attempts to pimp a mass murder for one’s own social agenda. It’s time to take something for the nausea.

i don’t want these talibanists in my party anymore.

jummy on April 22, 2007 at 10:09 PM

Jummy,

Brilliant moral equivalence. You wouldn’t have a nation if it wasn’t for Christians like George Washington.

jummy on April 22, 2007 at 10:18 PM

Personally I don’t want this cretin in MY party anymore. Take your argument to the kindergarten playground where it belongs.

Denying the stark comparative difference between the real Taliban and American evangelicals = denying the sun travels east to west. It’s willful obfuscation. (don’t give me another moronic rebuttal like “uh, it’s the earth that’s spinning man, not the sun that’s traveling. duh.”) Only a fool would debate my point.

With “logic” like yours jummy, you fit neatly into the same category of the simple-minded who made this ad.

jummy on April 23, 2007 at 3:36 AM

Still doesn’t change the fact that you, sir, are the anomaly compared to the vast majority of our nation’s history, certainly its formative period.

You want Christians out of “your” party? We built your party. That is not a boast. It’s simply a fact. Religious Christians specifically were the driving force behind the formation of the anti-slavery movement and the Republican party. Their arguments against the practice were religious in nature, and their motive power in the process was their religious world-view.

I don’t care if you don’t pray. I can’t count on you to capitalize words. I only care that America no longer prays. We’re well on our way to formalizing what you seem to think is the correct and superior cultural norm, but I don’t think you’ll like it when it gets here. You’re sweeping the house clean and garnishing it with empty platitudes, and that space is going to get filled, chief. Not by your world-view, though.