Video: American Family Association blames godlessness for VTech massacre
posted at 9:30 pm on April 22, 2007 by Allahpundit
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They claim not to have produced this but merely stumbled upon it during their travels on the Internet. Either way, it’s theirs now and they’re looking to get paid. Upshot: If only we allowed prayer in public schools and had impeached Clinton, God would have smote Cho or cured him of his insanity or at least made that imaginary supermodel girlfriend of his real or whatever.
As an atheist, I blame myself. My dearest apologies to the victims and their families.
If this “argument” sounds familiar, it should.
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I’m Christian and I don’t blame godlessness. I blame society. Maybe I’m not that original, but at least I won’t step on AP’s toes.
Darth Executor on April 22, 2007 at 9:37 PM
I don’t disagree.
Whether you believe in God or not, our nation is reaping what it has sown.
unamused on April 22, 2007 at 9:40 PM
Oh, by the way, all the initiatives talked about in that video were driven by the far left.
This is why I hate the left. They cry foul and do nothing but destroy the moral fabric of our nation, then wonder why our children have no conscience.
unamused on April 22, 2007 at 9:42 PM
That’s kinda like saying: you don’t blame peachyness, you blame peaches.
- The Cat
MirCat on April 22, 2007 at 9:42 PM
How, exactly, is “our nation” to blame for the actions of a particular individual who chose do do evil?
Slublog on April 22, 2007 at 9:43 PM
That is, who chose “TO do” evil.
Stupid typing fingers.
Slublog on April 22, 2007 at 9:44 PM
I guess we’ve been reaping it for a long time.
Allahpundit on April 22, 2007 at 9:47 PM
Not quite. There is far more wrong with society than its godlessness. The overwhelming majority of Americans are Christian. Including many of the stupid liberals who are responsible for society’s disintegration.
Darth Executor on April 22, 2007 at 9:50 PM
I guess when they kicked God out of school, he took the geography teacher with him. Jonesboro is on the other side of the state from what they show on that video.
arkansasmike on April 22, 2007 at 9:53 PM
Stupid. Cho was apparently a schizophrenic. If we’re looking to blame someone or something other than him for what he did, how about we take a look at de-institutionalization of the extremely mentally ill rather than godlessness?
I guess everyone just wants to use the VTech tragedy to jump on all their old hobbyhorses and ride them into the sunset, never mind the specifics of this particular incident.
Bryan on April 22, 2007 at 9:54 PM
They keep repeating, “you can’t legislate morality”. But that is exactly what the law is. It is a common foundation of morals upon which a society has agreed. The moral foundation is between the human and his creator, the law is between the human and his society.
If you remove morality from the equation, then all you have left is the law, which can be re-legislated to be whatever is popular with the legislature (pure democracy rules). Since there is no inherent right or wrong, the only thing the legislator worries about is the polling of his votes.
Then we wind up with G-d not being allowed in schools, concepts such as marriage being redefined to satsify perverts, an education system actively subverting the relationship between children and parents, etc, etc.
stonemeister on April 22, 2007 at 9:55 PM
I’m keeping a list of these people.
Jack Thompson (videogames did it)
Fred Phelps (God did it because of all the homosexuals)
I Liberals (Bush did it)
II Liberals (gun control did it)
AP’s original post.
Darth Executor on April 22, 2007 at 9:59 PM
Ooo, ooo, I know why he did it! I know why he did it! Mr. Allahpundit, pick me sir, pick me (hand waving in air, as Mr. AllahPundit says, “yes, amerpundit”)
HE WAS A FREAKEN NUT!!!
Godlessness has nothing to do with it. Cho thought he was dying like Jesus Christ, and saw himself as a martyr. He was Christian, as is his family.
amerpundit on April 22, 2007 at 10:02 PM
It is Bryan for the win!
F15Mech on April 22, 2007 at 10:04 PM
Give me a break.
I’ll agree with this:
Not that he was a Christian.
jman on April 22, 2007 at 10:05 PM
The act itself was vile.
Then, it is exploited and prostituted to the masses.
How is this thread any different?
Tru2my2 on April 22, 2007 at 10:06 PM
I guess we’ve been reaping it for a long time.
Allahpundit on April 22, 2007 at 9:47 PM
I’ll say up front that i’m not religious and think there’s a lot more to school shootings than lack of prayer, but, if you were implying that school shootings were common before prayer was taken out, that just doesn’t seem to be the case. I’m not familiar with the prayer in school law, but apparently this was the first law to take prayer out of schools and it was in 1962. So if Wikipedia is right, then all the school massacres have taken place after prayer was removed from school except for the one you cited.
forged rite on April 22, 2007 at 10:07 PM
jman, I said he was a Christian, I didn’t say he followed the teachings of the church. He mentioned being like Jesus, at least once in his video. My point is solely, that being Christian had nothing to do with it. I’ve not once been to a mass, where the pastor ended the mass with “Mass has ended. Go now, and massacre a bunch of people”.
amerpundit on April 22, 2007 at 10:07 PM
PS I may have jumped on a hobbyhorse during the VTech tragedy.
F15Mech on April 22, 2007 at 10:09 PM
i don’t want these talibanists in my party anymore.
jummy on April 22, 2007 at 10:09 PM
Then find a new party.
EnochCain on April 22, 2007 at 10:10 PM
Then there was the Poe Elementary School attack, in 1959.
amerpundit on April 22, 2007 at 10:12 PM
Agreed.
jman on April 22, 2007 at 10:13 PM
you’re confirming that these talibanists are in our party then?
jummy on April 22, 2007 at 10:14 PM
I blame it on North Korea. If the pussies had won the Korean War and taken over the South, there would be only one Korea. A nice communist country, where nobody leaves, hence Cho would have been their problem.
There is only one to be blamed fot VTech: the murderer!
Ropera on April 22, 2007 at 10:14 PM
EnochCain, I actually don’t want these talibanists on my earth any more. They mass slaughter people. Christianity has nothing to do with it, it’s, again the fact that he was a nut.
amerpundit on April 22, 2007 at 10:14 PM
’scuse me. my party.
jummy on April 22, 2007 at 10:14 PM
No but you are confirming you are an ass for referring to them as such…when the first Christians saw off the head of a non believer at Jesus Camp get back to me.
EnochCain on April 22, 2007 at 10:15 PM
i fear i won’t be waiting long.
jummy on April 22, 2007 at 10:18 PM
Actually, something that has suprised me about all this is I am yet to see anyone (or at least anyone notable) blame this on videogames, movies or music
Perhaps if Lieberman was running for president..
Reaps on April 22, 2007 at 10:18 PM
Forged Rite,
Isn’t that similar to blaming “global warming” on a lack of pirates? Correlation is not proof of causation. There are a number of other things that changed in the 60’s, so can I infer that desegregation is somehow related to school shootings?
Krydor on April 22, 2007 at 10:22 PM
Straw man. They’re saying that a nation that divorces itself from its primary source of morality, i.e. its Christian heritage, and instead embraces a culture of hedonism is setting itself up for dire consequences. Saying that Cho is one of those consequences is a stretch, to be sure, but I agree with their basic thesis.
In the words of Robert Bork, America is slouching towards Gomorrah. If you create a vacuum, something will always fill it. Europe’s vacuum is being filled as we speak. It won’t be long before America’s is as well.
spmat on April 22, 2007 at 10:24 PM
Jack Thompson was pontificating about it on Fox News.
Darth Executor on April 22, 2007 at 10:26 PM
Oh, and the killer WAS Christian. He was also crazy. I honestly don’t even hate him, I feel sorry for him. It’s obvious he had some real mental issues. I’ve had my own share of them and it isn’t easy.
Darth Executor on April 22, 2007 at 10:27 PM
Sounds like “9/11 is our fault” to me.
Amen, if you’ll pardon the pun.
No problem with Christians, but just like I implore the “moderate” Islamists to stand up to their kooks we need to stand up to these nuts.
Dash on April 22, 2007 at 10:27 PM
elgeneralisimo blames global warming…
elgeneralisimo on April 22, 2007 at 10:30 PM
So sayeth Rev. Falwell. And spit Rev. Phelps.
Pablo on April 22, 2007 at 10:34 PM
No, it’s the designated hitter rule that’s to blame.
Pablo on April 22, 2007 at 10:34 PM
Yeah, i think taking prayer out of schools was more a symptom than a cause and amerpundit has already pointed out another school shooting that took place before 1962. But the correlation is there.
forged rite on April 22, 2007 at 10:38 PM
Did you support Ross Perot in ‘92?
spmat on April 22, 2007 at 10:38 PM
If a police officer goes out on patrol and gets shot while not wearing his vest, no it’s not his lack of a vest that got him shot or shot him, it was the person who shot him. But his lack of a vest did aid in his death.
Cho was crazy and Cho did it period. But taking away things that help protect children in their life . . . do you see the point now?
- The Cat
MirCat on April 22, 2007 at 10:46 PM
AFA has got it right.
Maxx on April 22, 2007 at 10:47 PM
no.
jummy on April 22, 2007 at 10:59 PM
Well, I certainly don’t. Cho would have become sane if he had been forced to pray in school? The other students would have been protected by a magical force field? What are you trying to say?
Watcher on April 22, 2007 at 11:06 PM
Ropera, I have to also blame the VaTech administration that refuses to allow even CCW permit holders to defend themselves and others, despite the track record. They are responsible for disarming the victims.
The Monster on April 22, 2007 at 11:06 PM
You know, it just “frosts” me that more people will believe in “Global Whatever {trade mark pending}” than they do when you remove standards, rules, faith, discipline, stucture, our Founding Fathers, and responsibility when teaching our young, might, just might, have an ill effect.
True, there will always be unbalanced minds, but hey, throw Ward Churchill and his like into the mix, year in, year out, Bad America, Bad Capitalism, Founding Fathers were just slave owners, all Corporations exploit their workers, Viva Che, don’t judge Bill Clinton on his personal life, Bush lied {no he didn’t}, Cheney wants to eat your babies in their mother’s womb kinda stuff………..
Some of you wouldn’t know a “clue”, let alone “getting one”, if it was sitting on your face……..
PATHETIC……
PinkyBigglesworth on April 22, 2007 at 11:10 PM
Allah, you’re an atheist? I wouldn’t have guessed it.
This world could use a lot more atheists with your convictions and determination.
Coronagold on April 22, 2007 at 11:14 PM
How does this explain the thousand-plus years of “Christians” in Europe slaughtering Cathars, Huguenots, Jews, “witches”, and other heretics? (Not to mention the New World.)
Not enough prayer in medieval school?
Crazy this sick doesn’t respond to anything but its internal morbidity.
The social climate only irritates it, whatever it is.
profitsbeard on April 22, 2007 at 11:16 PM
Gingrich on This Week
Pam on April 22, 2007 at 11:20 PM
Can’t comment on all of those but Cathars started the killing first and Jews killed Christians before we took over the Roman Empire.
Darth Executor on April 22, 2007 at 11:20 PM
Thank you. Comparing Christians who are upset that Christian prayer has been removed from schools to the Taliban is ridiculous.
wytammic on April 22, 2007 at 11:23 PM
There’s more truth to that then there is to the left’s ideas why it happened and continues to happen.
JinxMcHue on April 22, 2007 at 11:32 PM
spmat on April 22, 2007 at 10:24 PM
~I agree.
INC on April 22, 2007 at 11:33 PM
The VTech shooting makes a perfect argument for prayer in schools. If I’d been in that classroom I’d have been praying. Maybe kids should pray that some nutsack doesn’t come shoot up the school today? Or pray the goth kid in study hall is a lousy shot…etc.
Buck Turgidson on April 22, 2007 at 11:36 PM
Well, I’m a Christian too, but try as I might I can’t see how taking faith out of schools caused what happened this week. I’m more inclined to agree with Bryan…people like that need to be safely put away where they can’t easily hurt themselves or other people. I realize that’s not PC to say, but there you have it.
Old family friends. Parents, my father’s age, both have died in the last few years. Two children, one married, succesful, with two teenagers. Other was mentally unbalanced, and he went on a rampage last year and killed his sister and brother in law. We’ve known for a long time that the son had mental issues, but despite his parents’ and sister’s best efforts, he could not be forcibly sent to where he needed badly to be. And now two wonderful people are dead and two teenagers made orphans. What this could possibly have to do with taking prayer out of schools totally escapes me, though.
Bob's Kid on April 22, 2007 at 11:38 PM
It’s interesting to see this post on the same day with YouTube’s tributes to Cho.
The far Left and the far Right are both scary and dangerous to this country.
Entelechy on April 22, 2007 at 11:41 PM
Yeah, we got a word for Moderates. Wanna hear it?
Coronagold on April 22, 2007 at 11:47 PM
to call this nut a “christian” is absurd. So what if he compared himself to Christ, Christ never stalked girls then went nuts and killed 32 innoncent people in an act of terror followed by suicide.
there are no true Atheist by the way, what they say they beleive and what their actions show to be their truth are very different things.
jp on April 22, 2007 at 11:58 PM
Many who were institutionalized were let go and then there is HIPAA, Title II, The Privacy Rule. Bill Clinton signed it in 1996, with a conservative Congress; then it was strengthened in 2003, and you know who was in charge…
HIPAA has its strong/good points but this massacre should revisit serious discussion on the mentally ill and who can speak for them.
As is now, only hospitals and insurance companies can exchange information (only on charge codes, what was treated, and at what price, so hospitals/doctors get paid), without the permission of the patient. Every other topic or decision must be with the authorization of the (mentally ill) patient.
Such discussions, better background tracking and checks on the mentally ill before they buy guns, better security at schools and colleges, better processes and procedures on what to do in such a dire case would be much wiser than placing blame aimlessley, be it from the Right or the Left.
Entelechy on April 23, 2007 at 12:14 AM
America has always been a praying, Christian nation, from the top down. Now it is not so. Our schools are as devoid of Christian influence as is possible, considering that the solid majority of the student body is nominally Christian. This practice of scouring the schools of any hint of Christian taint is a very modern conceit dictated by and enforced under the secondary and tertiary sources of Constitutional case law.
God exists. We ignore Him at our own peril. And by peril I mean, we are kept safe by the hand of God. There’s been a hedge around this nation for a long time now, in my opinion precisely because it was a praying, God-fearing nation. All God has to do is to remove His hand, remove that hedge and leave us on our own. To an atheist, this is of course nonsense. There is no God, no hedge but our will, no hand but our own. To Christians like myself, however, the idea of God leaving America to its own devices is frightening. Very frightening indeed.
God is the reason why the American revolution didn’t eat itself alive. God is the reason why the Constitutional Convention did not devolve into a catch-as-catch-can affair among infighting regional factions. God is the reason why we weren’t attacked in force by a foreign power until 20 years after that document, and the government that it established, was created and allowed to stabilize.
America shouldn’t exist. By all rights and historical precedent, America should have Balkanized early on and been picked apart by the established world powers. It should certainly have blown itself apart in 1865. It didn’t. It’s still here. The providential hand of God, and the blessings and protections that it gives, are the reason why America still stands.
Our might, our industriousness, our ingenuity, all these things are a function of our willingness not to rely on ourselves, or our king, or the State, but to rely on God alone, and His blessings. That is our heritage. Read the letters from the common people throughout the first 200 years of our history. Read the letters of the political aristocracy at our birth. Read the speeches of Washington and Lincoln. Read the stories of the lives of the men and women that built this country, mile by mile, home by home.
All those years, all those prayers, all that heritage. It’s gone now. One court decision. A decision that reversed centuries of heritage, based on 5 judges’ interpretation of a document written by praying men, men that prayed fervently at the document’s inception and continued to pray publicly and in their official capacity for the safety of the nation for which the document was written.
It’s enough to break your heart to think we’ve given up so much, for so little.
spmat on April 23, 2007 at 12:17 AM
The Machine agrees with The Monster.
Now why are we all in this descending handbasket again?
.
The Machine on April 23, 2007 at 12:33 AM
Check out the straw poll on AFA’s front page
Looks like the “Religious Right” will be picking the Republican nominee.
Theworldisnotenough on April 23, 2007 at 12:35 AM
C’mon gangsta’s what could possibly be influencing the population to kill so many lil kids. I would stay and talk but I need to finish this game on my x-box then go catch a flick with my baby’ mama.
sonnyspats1 on April 23, 2007 at 1:07 AM
True. And I would bet much that Mr. Thompson will not associate himself with the title of this thread. It is possible to be conservative, religious, or both, and not make such claims. They give the other side unnecessary fodder, when we have more serious issues to address.
Entelechy on April 23, 2007 at 1:22 AM
I think the following info was compiled in the 90’s. It is small excerpts from “America’s Godly Heritage” by David Barton - Revised and condensed by Annette Nay.
roydee43 on April 23, 2007 at 1:27 AM
was that an impersonation of the vtech killer? because it sounded nothing like him.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 1:47 AM
I WILL step on AP’s toes. There’s nothing in that video that wasn’t 100% true. You kick responsibility (a set of rules and accountability) out of school and you get what we have today. If anything goes, then anything goes. We truly reap what we sow.
thedecider on April 23, 2007 at 1:57 AM
nope. i’m afraid that is not what is being discussed.
the analogy i drew was between christians - and let us be clear: the american “family” association - attributing a massacre of innocents to the just wrath of an offended deity, and the taliban.
the analogy is apt.
spmat just gave us a lengthy sermon on how we can expect more acts of terror because we’ve offended “god” through our infidelity such that he’s removed his hand of protection.
now, i’m not ready to sic the marines on him, but i am ready to march he, the afa and anyone who thinks like him out of my party and mainstream policy discourse.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 2:04 AM
Bryan, unless I’m completely misreading your comments, this seems to be a callous remark for an acknowledged christian to make.
Why not look at both? I’m not saying Cho wasn’t mentally ill, but isn’t there an argument to be made for the fact that anything remotely “christian” in nature being removed from the public eye has an impact on our society?
thedecider on April 23, 2007 at 2:04 AM
the sticky part is that “real” conservatives know you have to be a judeochristian in order to be a “real” conservative.if you buck theocracy, you’re smeared as a liberal, even though christianity is just a bunch of socialism.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 2:11 AM
callous? bryan’s being sane.
you know who’s callous? the twin vultures of christocrats and gun-grabbers circling around the still-fresh corpses.
get a grip on yourself. look what you’re doing. this isn’t just embarrassing to other conservatives, you’re abusing the victims with this horses**t.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 2:19 AM
No jummy, I’m not making an argument about gun control. I’m making an argument about kicking God and the ten commandments out of the public arena.
thedecider on April 23, 2007 at 2:30 AM
no, you’re making a “pray to my lord or more kids will doe” argument. it’s disgusting. you should be ashamed.
does your “god” pay taxes?
no. in fact, your “god” is tax-exempt. seems to me your god should count his chips and shut his mouth.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 2:42 AM
was that an impersonation of the vtech killer? because it sounded nothing like him.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 1:47 AM
No as a matter of fact it was a refference to gangster rap,violent vidio games and movies and sexual promiscuity all prevalent in todays schools and culture. Why you got a problem with that!
sonnyspats1 on April 23, 2007 at 2:48 AM
Ha Ha besides the spelling?
sonnyspats1 on April 23, 2007 at 2:49 AM
no it just seemed odd and out of place because we’re talking about something some talibanists said about the vtech massacre, and your comment referenced none of that.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 2:59 AM
I understand you reference to the christian taliban (fallwell and robertson) My reference was more behavior related lets just say I am of the opinion we (as a country) have lost our moral compass with our values. I don’t think it could hurt returning to them . I also beleive the christian faith (protestant/catholic whatever) is a good reference guide to those values. Don’t you agree jummy, or no?
sonnyspats1 on April 23, 2007 at 3:12 AM
Will you guys please STFU about this “Christian taliban” garbage: there is no Christian equivalent to the mass-mudering moon-worshipping lunatics of the Taliban who while governing Afghanistan used a soccer stadium for mass slaughter, among other High Crimes
And don’t pull that flagrantly dishonest bit where you compare the Taliban NOW to fanatical Christians a millenium ago. We had the Reformation and the Renaissance and a Scientific Revolution and an Industrial Revolution
Those monkeys had…..dick; nada; jack
Janos Hunyadi on April 23, 2007 at 3:17 AM
Janos Hunyadi on April 23, 2007 at 3:17 AM
You talkin to me?!!
sonnyspats1 on April 23, 2007 at 3:26 AM
i don’t really. i think there is a legal apparatus in place through which we can arrive at standards for social conduct.
yes, that means a de-centralized system based on individual rights, and yes, it is incompatible with a centralized dictatorship from the pulpit.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 3:29 AM
it’s a rhetorical swipe perhaps as overplayed but not half as offensive as the message in that video you all seem eager to extoll.
the afa and here, spmat, said nothing less repulsive than what, for instance, leftists said about 911. we could take religion out of it altogether and talk about it in those terms, except that you guys seem to think it’s a matter of “pray to my lord or more kids will die”.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 3:36 AM
yes, among others. If you boys keep equating the Religious Right ( such as it is, or was ) with the Taliban, you sprial downwards from Dumb to Dumber to a HuffPo-level of Truly Dense Dumbness.
Janos Hunyadi on April 23, 2007 at 3:40 AM
“You guys”? I’m not defending the “afa”; I never heard of them, and don’t care to hear more.
Janos Hunyadi on April 23, 2007 at 3:45 AM
OH I see hmm crime and punishment. Well yes these are in place and I must confess as an adult male mabey I have rethought my impules to react in light of the consequences. But what about children what about the kids. Should we be charging 3rd graders with a crime for stealing a kiss (which has happened) I think in SC about six mos ago. How much leistration can we pass or who gets to decide these laws. I mean every time a heious crime is commited all it takes is one person the appear befor a congresional commitee for it to be enacted. Look at the Amber Alert We have now. One parent has impacted the entire DOT of the country. I think this paticular law is a truly wonderful and effective thing but arent we creating a whip for our own backs by passing too many laws
sonnyspats1 on April 23, 2007 at 3:45 AM
If anything the vt shooting means MORE guns are needed by law abiding citizens. Teachers need to be EDUCATED in the use of firearms JUST in case nuts like this are let out. I really hold off on the whole *reap what you sow* case because you can say that about every little negative thing that comes along.
I think we should channel our efforts to guns are a good thing if you are educated in how to use them. No need to FEAR them…….seriously. If we think education is such a great thing to do away with fear, there is no reason NOT to educate people how to deal with how to keep down mass death.
Highrise on April 23, 2007 at 3:46 AM
Janos Hunyadi on April 23, 2007 at 3:40 AM Well first I will say you are entitled to your opinion. second you are assuming you know something you don’t third if you read my post before you go spouting off you would realize I and in a debate with jummy! forth is that the name of your church STFU?
sonnyspats1 on April 23, 2007 at 3:52 AM
This is the same argument that the Fred Phelps cult makes. I don’t consider the Westboro Baptist Church to be Christians and the same goes for these people as well.
BohicaTwentyTwo on April 23, 2007 at 8:34 AM
Hmmm, the Clinton scandal = child porn. Whaaaa?
If our children “don’t have a conscience and no sense of right and wrong”, look to the parents first. The real culprit of moral decay, IMHO, is that no one is watching the children. Let them surf the internet for hours, let them watch t.v. for hours, let them play video games for hours. Chores, sunlight, creative playing and character developing activities are lost in our thoroughly modern wired 24/7 society.
This is not to say I agree in any way that movies, music and video games are responsible for moral decay. My son, 7, has seen somewhat violent movies, played shooter games on PS2, and I let him listen to Led Zeppelin. But I watch the movies with him and explain what’s going on, I play Battlefront (not Doom or anything like that) with him and teach him strategy and hand him his guitar when we listen to music. And you can bet none of this happens without chores and homework done first and with strict time limits.
To blame society for our children’s desensitization is only has merit because the parents are allowing it. If you want your children to be Christ-like, then raise them to be so. It starts - and ends - at home.
SouthernDem on April 23, 2007 at 8:58 AM
Allah,
I think instead of taking this personally, you should at least listen to the list of things we have allowed in society that damages us.
You don’t have to believe in God to believe that we reap what we sow.
And there is no doubt that we have done that.
Rightwingsparkle on April 23, 2007 at 9:28 AM
Personally, religion is very important in my life. Personally being the key word. Marx was right, to some, religion is an opiate.
honora on April 23, 2007 at 9:28 AM
Still doesn’t change the fact that you, sir, are the anomaly compared to the vast majority of our nation’s history, certainly its formative period.
You want Christians out of “your” party? We built your party. That is not a boast. It’s simply a fact. Religious Christians specifically were the driving force behind the formation of the anti-slavery movement and the Republican party. Their arguments against the practice were religious in nature, and their motive power in the process was their religious world-view.
I don’t care if you don’t pray. I can’t count on you to capitalize words. I only care that America no longer prays. We’re well on our way to formalizing what you seem to think is the correct and superior cultural norm, but I don’t think you’ll like it when it gets here. You’re sweeping the house clean and garnishing it with empty platitudes, and that space is going to get filled, chief. Not by your world-view, though.
spmat on April 23, 2007 at 10:19 AM
i fear i won’t be waiting long.
jummy on April 22, 2007 at 10:18 PM
Personally I don’t want this cretin in MY party anymore. Take your argument to the kindergarten playground where it belongs.
Denying the stark comparative difference between the real Taliban and American evangelicals = denying the sun travels east to west. It’s willful obfuscation. (don’t give me another moronic rebuttal like “uh, it’s the earth that’s spinning man, not the sun that’s traveling. duh.”) Only a fool would debate my point.
With “logic” like yours jummy, you fit neatly into the same category of the simple-minded who made this ad.
The Ritz on April 23, 2007 at 10:31 AM
Jummy,
Brilliant moral equivalence. You wouldn’t have a nation if it wasn’t for Christians like George Washington.
PRCalDude on April 23, 2007 at 11:00 AM
“How, exactly, is “our nation” to blame for the actions of a particular individual who chose do do evil?”
Hear, hear!
All this pseudo-righteous “we reap what we sow” crap is nothing but dishonest attempts to pimp a mass murder for one’s own social agenda. It’s time to take something for the nausea.
rightwingprof on April 23, 2007 at 11:14 AM
Now, for you brethren out there who’re afraid I’ve denied the faith by calling these ad-makers simple-minded, consider this.
It’s an individual heart problem that drives people to crazed and evil acts like the VT shooting. It’s an individual heart problem that rejects Scripture and prayer. In other words the abandonment of behaviors showing devotion to Christ is not the cause, it’s the visible effect of the problem.
The American church-goer has been too busy confusing Christian belief with the American Dream to recognize the rise of the real problem among us well before prayer was banned in public schools. Decades before O’Hare’s suit bore fruit, the American church was already poisoning the soil by ritualizing rather than realizing her faith.
“faith” is a word that’s been over-used to the verge of uselessness, so let me be clear when I use it. Scriptural faith is the simple belief that God is real, and that He rewards those who are devoted to understanding and following Him. Most of us have trouble with one or both of those truths, and that’s what causes us to fail. If God isn’t real why should we listen to anything he “says”. If God isn’t rewarding, why should we put down our toys and pet dreams to follow hard after Him?
On the other hand, if He is real and rewarding - what fools we all are to substitute anything else in His place!
To all the members of my Christian family who read this - quit believing all our problems will be fixed by band-aid solutions like protecting public “moments of silence” or monuments to the 10 commandments. Instead, let’s concentrate on a diligent, devoted examination of our own belief in God’s existence and his overwhelming mercy and generosity made accessible to us through Christ’s sacrifice and intercession for us. If we are absolutely overcome by that reality, what we do in response will be a living monument to who God is, what He’s done, and the amazing goodness He’s promised to the one’s whose hearts He owns.
The Ritz on April 23, 2007 at 11:14 AM
Religion or lack of religion is not the problem and isn’t the reason for an event such as the VT massacre. The individuals that do this have major problems and something breaks in their psyche that results in very violent behavior.
Reactions are predictable: (a) Need to ban guns (b) need to increase number of armed people (c) breakdown in religion is the cause
These things happen in every country on occasion. There is not much way to prevent the fact that some humans “break” mentally and lash out.
The religion angle is used to explain our society’s “sorry state”.
In my opinion it has more to with the broken families that have increased in leaps and bounds in the last fifty years. 50% divorce rate means that a whole lot of kids grew up with more challenges and self esteem issues than any other time in history.
I’ll go out on a limb and make a guess but I would imagine that the number of people who identify themselves as “religious” in the divorced numbers mirror any other polls or studies about society in general.
If this steps on toes, sorry in advance but if you have been divorced due to reasons such as “couldn’t get along”, “just wasn’t working out”, “she/He was a *&*&” etc. and had kids then you own some of the blame for the current state of aimless or confused children in our society. Maybe you got religion after the first marriage and that is great, but to point at others who don’t share the same religious beliefs as you and say that is what is wrong with society is pretty hypocritical.
Bradky on April 23, 2007 at 11:40 AM
I see another attempt farther up to correlate no prayer in school with the horrible moral decline of The United States Of America. Seems to be a fixation on 1963.
JFK was shot in 1963, therefore the assasination of JFK has something to do with school violence. If only we could un-assasinate the President! Wait, that doesn’t even make sense. We can’t unassasinate JFK.
Ok, what else can we look at. I mentioned that that whole Civil Rights thing was reaching its peak. Well, we can’t decivilrightify everyone. That would be silly.
So, what we have is removal of prayer in school as some sort of touchstone for the degradation of western civilization as embodied in God’s chosen nation. Well, not so much prayer in school as opposed to state sponsored prayer in school. Because, you know, they can’t really stop people from praying and God finds large groups praying loudly together to be a bunch of hypocrites. At least that what Matthew 6:5 says… Yes, I know, even the Devil can quote the Bible for his own nefarious plans.
Here’s something to ponder, and it will sound absolutely horrible: I gaurantee that in those classrooms, on that day, a whole bunch of people were praying. Strangely, God did not sweep down from the heavens and stop Cho. I’ll also bet good money that some of the people killed were devout Christians and were not spared.
I know, I know, we can’t question the strange ways of the Almighty. Perhaps Cho was His servant? You know, he only killed the most righteous so that God could fill a vacancy on the cloud subcommittee or something. We can’t question what God allows to happen unless we can twist it to match our narrative.
That’s exactly what is being done here. It’s not enough that a mentally ill freak was allowed to legally buy a couple of guns after avoiding involuntary committment. He probably could have snagged a couple of illegal weapons, anyway.
Yes, I am being absolutely insensitive to the belief structure of a whole bunch of people, some even on this board. I leave you with a couple of gems to think about: “The Lord helps those that help themselves” and “two hands working accomplish more than one thousand hands praying”.
Krydor on April 23, 2007 at 11:43 AM
that’s like saying the country was founded by people who didn’t drive automobiles and wore buckled shoes. so what? there was nothing else to be but christian.
jummy on April 23, 2007 at 12:07 PM
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