Weekend VTech thread: Cho may have told someone of his plans Plus “33rd Victim” Update!” CORNELL PRESIDENT: 33 “Members of our family”
posted at 9:20 pm on April 20, 2007 by Allahpundit
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I’ll be away this weekend but star guestblogger See-Dubya will be keeping tabs on the case. Check this space for updates on Saturday and Sunday. I’m sure there’ll be something.
The news tonight is that my theory about Emily Hilscher having been merely a target of opportunity might be disintegrating:
ABCNews has obtained new court documents that show police are probing the possibility that Seung-Hui Cho may have confided to someone else his plans to unleash a bloody campus massacre that left 32 victims dead earlier this week…
[A]nother warrant affidavit filed Friday … says that “there is probable cause to believe the computer information maintained by Virginia Tech for Seung-Hui Cho and victim Emily Hilscher, may contain information relating” to a murder. The warrant also cites a criminal investigative analyst who tells police “that in 80 to 85 percent of homicide cases the victim is known to the offender.”
On Thursday, Virginia Tech police seized Hilscher’s laptop computer and her cell phone.
They don’t say in whom he might have confided but they do mention that he spoke to his parents every Sunday night. Maybe he said something oblique to them the night before the shootings and they didn’t realize the import? As for Hilscher, Cho of course had a history of stalking women online, and there’s now circumstantial evidence to suggest that she might have been on his mind:
Many days, Andy Koch would return to his dorm to find suitemate Seung-Hui Cho standing in the hall, staring out a window that offered a sweeping view of neighboring West Ambler Johnston Hall.
Cho never lived at West AJ, as the towering dorm was called. He had no friends there, as far as anyone knows. And yet a room on the fourth floor was the spot where the 23-year-old senior chose to start the deadliest one-man shooting spree in modern U.S. history.
The same article goes on to theorize why Cho might have targeted the engineering department. Someone e-mailed me on the day of, or the day after, the shootings to suggest that he may have started off as an engineering major and then shifted to a “soft” major like English when he couldn’t keep up. Sounds like that might be close to the truth:
Another mystery: Why did the English major target Norris, a building dominated by engineering and foreign language classes? Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who went to high school with Cho, said he remembers seeing Cho on campus a lot freshman year, and concluded that Cho, like him, started out as an engineering major.
“If he started in engineering and had to switch to English that might be a reason why he’s angry at the engineering department,” Davids said.
Another lingering question here, which I asked in one of the earlier posts, is when exactly Cho’s introversion metamorphosed into something pathological and dangerous. His great aunt in South Korea told the media that he was diagnosed with autism as a kid, and now it’s come out that some of this classmates before he got to college suspected he might have kept “a hit list.” That may just be a case of kids making up stories about the weirdo in their midst, but it’s worth noting that there are two sources for it and they come from different points in his childhood: one went to middle school with him and the other was with him from eighth grade through high school. Strange that a rumor like that would persist without there being some substance to it.
That’s all I’ve got for now. Here’s the statement the Cho family issued earlier today. According to cops, no fewer than 168 and possibly as many as 225 shots were fired; most of the victims were hit at least three times. Will this make a difference in public opinion on gun control? CBS took a poll and found that it hasn’t. Not yet, anyway.
UPDATE (by See-dubya): While hard news on the shooting is slowing down, reactions are coming in from big columnists and also from Planet Zroknob, aka Daily Kos, emphasis mine:
My heart aches. Of course I mourn the passing of the thirty-two Virginia Polytechnic University students, as do we all throughout the globe. Nevertheless, I cannot forget how my heart hurts for the thirty-third victim, the one the media never seems to count among those killed, Seung-Hui Cho. On April 16, 2007 thirty-three lovable and fragile individuals passed.
In case that disappears, or if you can only take a small dose of this without projectile regurgitation, or if you just don’t like giving Zroknob the traffic, Little Green Footballs has a screencap with more than enough crazy for you.
Remember: The only person worthy of hatred is George Bush. And Dick Cheney and John Bolton and John Ashcroft and Joe Lieberman. But Psy-Cho? We feel his pain.
I’m not going to apologize for dubbing this psycho “Psy-Cho”, by the way. He wants to be feared and taken seriously and have his name spoken in hushed tones. I’m not going to give the respect he never tried to earn, and I want anyone who wants to do what he did to know that his legacy will be eternal ridicule and derision. As I wrote in the other column, it works for big-time terrorists like Abimael Guzman and Zarqawi, so it will work for malfunctioning poser nerd terrorist wannabes like Psy-Cho.
Anyway, more reactions: Victor Davis Hanson shares (scroll down) his own crazy roommate story from–can you believe he went to UC Santa Cruz? This UC Santa Cruz? It involves flaming arrows. He recommends passing along this advice to freshmen entering the modern, “therapeutic” university:
You will meet very eccentric people there, with all sorts of problems and strong passions, most of them antithetical to your own. Don’t expect moral guidance necessarily from your professors, or physical protection from your colleagues or the administration. Ask for such help, but don’t count on it. Instead keep you eyes open and at all times expect the worse.”
Peggy Noonan visits the therapeutic university culture as well:
The school officials I saw, especially the head of the campus psychological services, seemed to me endearing losers. But endearing is too strong. I mean “not obviously and vividly offensive.” The school officials who gave all the highly competent, almost smooth and practiced news conferences seemed to me like white, bearded people who were educated in softness. Cho was “troubled”; he clearly had “issues”; it would have been good if someone had “reached out”; it’s too bad America doesn’t have better “support services.” They don’t use direct, clear words, because if they’re blunt, they’re implicated.
I’d say that’s pretty blunt.
IVY LEAGUE BALDERDASH UPDATE also by See-Dub: Not to be outdone by Yale’s outlandish banning of realistic weapons from stage plays, Cornell President David Skorton raises the bar for Ivy league numbskullery:
“We are one,” said Cornell President David Skorton. “We are one community, one people, one planet. We are here today to affirm that oneness … We are here to bear witness to the passing of the 33 members of our family at Virginia Tech University who have met an untimely and terrible fate.”
And, he said, “We are here for all of those who are gone, for all 33. We are here for the 32 who have passed from the immediate to another place, not by their own choice. We are also here for the one who has also passed.”
He added that those present were there to “join with our friends in the Korean and Korean-American communities for we are all one family, most especially today we share the same sorrow and the same need for comfort and reassurance.”
Good gravy. What preening folderol. “Ooh, ooh, look how exceptionally moral and broad-minded I am–I consider Psy-Cho part of my very family. Top that. You can’t? I win the tolerance sweepstakes. Yay ME!”
Why in the world did President Skorton give that shout-out to the Korean communities at Cornell? One of two possible explanations is that Skorton thinks they were feeling a great degree of racial guilt for the sins of their monstrous blood-brother. (“Racial guilt” isn’t something most people feel these days, but it is indoctrinated in Ivy League schools.) I’m sure he and most of the Cornell faculty blubber themselves to sleep over the collective sins of white dudes around the world, so it’s only logical to think that Korean-Americans need some special affirmation when a Korean student does something bad. But no need to worry, my friends. President Skorton has absolved you of the stain of Cho.
The other possibility: maybe he was trying to head off an Ugly Racial Incident. But for President Skorton’s brave inclusion of the Korean American Community in his address, Cornell’s vast Intolerant Redneck-American Community would have perpetrated an outrageous wave of despicable hate crimes upon every Korean in Ithaca.
But now that’s not going to happen. Thank you President Skorton, for delivering the Korean-American Community at Cornell from such an awful fate!
Hat tip to Wytammic, whose daughter goes to Cornell. Which would mean Wytammic is paying President Skorton’s salary. Think about that when you write those tuition checks, pal.
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Here’s the Rosetta stone.
Cho didnt send his video to CBS, or Fox, or ABC, or Chris Matthews, or YouTube, or Keith Olberman, or Nightline, or to Charlie Rose, or to Rush Limbaugh, or to Larry King, . . . etc.
He sent it to NBC.
And NBC went or air immediately and ran the whole thing.
Cho got just what he wanted, didnt he?
If anyone had prior knowledge, was it someone at NBC?
Labamigo on April 20, 2007 at 9:31 PM
AP, the HS classmate was on O’Reilly last night and confirmed the Hit List. He remembers one of his close friends was on it. The School made a big deal of it with Cho being suspended and the parents of the kids on the list being called in.
Looks like I was right about the reason for his animosity toward the engineering department. There is a strong cultural predisposition toward science & engineering among first and second generation Asians in my experience.
Didn’t you mention Emily just got home from her boyfriends that morning? If so, that could be what set him off. He was watching her. He knew she was out all night at her boyfriends. He saw her come home and that set him off.
TheBigOldDog on April 20, 2007 at 10:03 PM
He didn’t just send it to NBC. He sent it specifically to Brian Williams! Who has a very, very, very, very, very sincere post at HuffPo about all the soul-searching they did. When you think about it, Williams is really the 33rd victim.
Jim Treacher on April 20, 2007 at 10:05 PM
Like Hillary’s after she “found out” about Monica… of course I mean after she finished “gulping for air”. I never tire of hearing that clip on Drudge Radio.
From the CBS poll article:
This is odd, aren’t minorities responsible for the vast majority of gun crimes? Perhaps they should solve problems within their own communities, rather than taking away guns of those who legally obtain and keep them.
RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 10:34 PM
Treacher, to clarify, I’m not saying Hillary posted at HuffPo, I should have made clear, I was referring to the “sincerity” part.
RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 10:34 PM
That is some bitter snark, but well put bitter snark.
Bad Candy on April 20, 2007 at 10:47 PM
Actually, Williams is the 34th victim. Cho, as we heard today, is the 33rd.
Slublog on April 20, 2007 at 10:54 PM
And just think of Rosie. How much upsidedown time is she going to need to recover?
- The Cat
How come stalking really isn’t concidered a crime?
MirCat on April 20, 2007 at 10:58 PM
Actually he was the first “victim”. The “victim” of teasing, and the “victim” of mental illness that excuse his behavior entirely.
RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 10:59 PM
;
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=3061894&page=1
Va. Tech Shooter Showed Signs of Schizophrenia
By DR. MICHAEL WELNER
April 20, 2007 — The mental health field has been very successful in taking the stigma out of many conditions like depression, anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorder. But schizophrenia remains a term that inspires fear in many and shame in families, including the patients themselves, and the avoidance is part of a long-standing problem that needs to change.
Schizophrenia is a condition that affects the rationality of thoughts, emotions, communication, relatedness to others and interpretation of the environment.
Schizophrenics’ perspectives are often distancing, and their faces expressionless. It is easy to experience them as unfeeling, or cold, because their outward appearance reflects differently. A schizophrenic’s emotional tone may include hostility, which can be intense.
To some afflicted more severely, that may mean hearing things that others don’t hear, or even seeing things that others don’t see. To make matters worse, those voices are typically disparaging, often profane and commenting on someone in the third person. Imagine having to navigate through your day through a jangle of voices saying, “You’re a loser,” “Shut the —— up,” or “You should lose weight, everyone thinks you’re a lard.” Such a tragic burden, such a distraction.
Even for those who don’t have hallucinations, schizophrenia is a tough condition to carry. A schizophrenic has difficulty with the correct frequency of communication, interpersonal skills, efficiency, new information and complex demands. Unfamiliar circumstances separate those with this condition in ways similar to the autistic. They have difficulty relating to others, and others have difficulty relating to them.
Furthermore, the person with schizophrenia labors under an uncertainty of who he is, his place in the world, what he aligns with. That fragility affects sex orientation, religion and future pursuits.
People with schizophrenia — and others with paranoid disorders — use defense mechanisms just like the rest of us. Their limitations, however, affect the defenses they use. Schizophrenics’ defenses may be irrational displays of anger and hostility, or irrational ideas of persecution or grandiosity. Thinking may be replete with the most peculiar preoccupations of death, sex and religion.
Paranoid schizophrenia is a subtype of schizophrenia in which persecutory thinking or ideas that others refer to you or mean you harm are prominent. Those with paranoid schizophrenia often function at a “higher” level that those with other subtypes, but they are still notorious for intense hostility and for being quick to suspicion, prickly and highly defensive. They differ from those with merely suspicious personalities by having frankly bizarre aspects to their behavior, speech, appearance and or/manner.
Now imagine having that kind of condition and reading — or being told — that you just have to live with it because it is incurable.
Is it any wonder that those who might be told they have schizophrenia, especially in their late teens to early 20s, might refuse dealing with mental health professionals in order to refuse dealing with the illness?
The medical problem worsens: The person’s guardedness and suspiciousness and associated chemical imbalance worsens and exerts second-generation effects on the brain.
The social problem worsens: The person’s suspiciousness distances him from others. The person’s hostility distances others.
The interpersonal problem worsens: The person’s emotions become that much more frayed, and his disconnectedness and helplessness contribute to increasing frustration, anger and lashing out at others.
The functional toll worsens as each of these symptoms mount in significance and interfere with everyday life.
Awareness of that toll has left many, and for many years, feeling helpless to intervene. They, in turn, may drift away from the schizophrenic who leaves them feeling rejected, offended, insulted, creepy and in some instances, frightened.
None of this happens overnight. The earliest stages of schizophrenia are a progressive slide. Even doctors may have difficulty recognizing what is happening in the beginning — in part because patients are too guarded to tell them. Or, when patients who have already seen doctors fear being tranquilized or told of the chronic nature of their condition, the patient simply does not disclose history.
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Mellen on April 20, 2007 at 11:02 PM
I started off with an engineering interest and switched to English. I eventually ended up with a JD and a MA in literature. That might make me a bit eclectic and indirect. But it didn’t make me a mass killer.
Why can’t anyone just accept that evil can exist on its own? We are analyzing this prick like a Tolstoy novel. He has more depth in death than he could ever have achieved in life.
SailorDave on April 20, 2007 at 11:03 PM
Rightwing…
It didn’t excuse his behavior….it
his behavior…….
Let’s hope it never happens to someone in your family…………
Mellen on April 20, 2007 at 11:04 PM
Sailor Dave—One is wasting their time analyzing his behavior except to deduce that he had Paranoid Schizophrenia… rationaliing the behavior of a schiophrenic will keep you busy for many, many years…..trying to reason with one will make you crazy
Mellen on April 20, 2007 at 11:06 PM
Would you spend time analyzing why an alzheimer patient tries to put his glove on his foot???? Same thing……
Mellen on April 20, 2007 at 11:08 PM
Yeah, I can’t even say that even as a joke.
Jim Treacher on April 20, 2007 at 11:14 PM
I cannot believe they consider him a victim.
Okay, I can believe it, but it’s disgusting.
Slublog on April 20, 2007 at 11:16 PM
The US as a whole is the 34th.
Williams is just a slime ball. Being the 34th victim would be a step up for him.
Labamigo on April 20, 2007 at 11:19 PM
Guilty conscience? You posted after I did, so I obviously wasn’t even talking to you. That said, all this “schizo” stuff is rationalizing. It’s one thing for someone who snaps and loses it, or is totally disconnected from the real world. This SOB planned this for months (at least). He attended classes, obviously didn’t fail out. He may not have functioned in what society would consider normal, but he functioned. He fed himself. He didn’t go in to fits to the point he was dragged off.
I know, I know… schizos can do all of that right? Well to that I say there is a constant flow of studies that “scientists” say show there is mental illness behind virtually every character flaw in existence. Even being fat! I’m not saying schizophrenia is not real. I’m saying that anyone can be diagnosed with a mental illness these days, it’s a cop out. It’s why virtually any kid would be diagnosed with ADD and depression if assessed.
You can claim not to be excusing the behavior all you want. But as long as people call every killer “crazy”, that’s essentially what you’re doing. Was he the victim of bullying? Certainly, but so are millions of other kids who don’t kill people.
RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 11:24 PM
Implication being that if one so chooses, one could swipe a constitutional right away from US citizens by acting out an atrocious plan.
Perchant on April 20, 2007 at 11:33 PM
Right Wing , You attacked me in another thread but that’s okay, I’ve seen you do it to others…no biggie…. I am not the only one who thinks he was schizophrenic…there are a multitude of mental illnesses and schizophrenia is the worst of the lot. I have seen various Drs interviewed on programs this week that agree…..you’re free to think what you want but I have personal experince with a schizophrenic so it didn’t take long to figure it out. I’m sure many others with family members afflicted with the illness can also spot it fairly fast.Anyone can be diagnosed with a mental illness but the psychotic aspects of schizphrenia are much more severe and thus it is obvious to most. The Unabomber has schizophrenia, as did Son of Sam I believe. By the way often these people are extremely intelligent…it is just that their brains are wired wrong.And they are not disconnected totally from the real world…they blend the real world with their fantasies which makes them seem like they are for real…
Mellen on April 20, 2007 at 11:42 PM
Exactly! I am so tired of folks making excuses for the behavior of anomalies that have been subjected to the same stresses as the rest of us. I was bullied. My friends were bullied. Youth was not a walk through the park.
My parents taught me that success is the best revenge, not murder.
SailorDave on April 20, 2007 at 11:42 PM
“rationaliing the behavior of a schiophrenic will keep you busy for many, many years…..trying to reason with one will make you crazy”
So true. Yet there are blogs even today that are still attempting analysis of his motives, etc. It is almost comical to watch it.
crosspatch on April 20, 2007 at 11:46 PM
Mellen,
Contempt prior to investigation. It never fails to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.
Yes, Cho was evil. All people with schizophrenia are evil. And as long as you view it that way, there’s not a damn thing you can do to stop them from being evil.
unamused on April 20, 2007 at 11:47 PM
Crosspatch…thank you!! They are driving
crazy!!! It always makes me nuts when I realize how unaware people are about serious mental illness. I thought the stigma had been eradicated for the most part. Lord knows many ,many people have family and friends who suffer from it….But watching people like OReilly call it evil in an almost religious kind of way is so frustrating….It is a BRAIN DISEASE…And there is NO Cure and it is usually a chronic disease. Yes, we can say schizophrenia is an evil disease…and frankly it is a fate worse than death in my opinion…For a parent to hear their child has schizophrenia it is a virtual death sentence for the most part. Yes, there are newer drugs , but they still do not live a normal life…..
Mellen on April 20, 2007 at 11:51 PM
Yeah. Almost as real as the death sentence this guy passed on innocent people?
SailorDave on April 20, 2007 at 11:57 PM
Unamused….No, I am sorry to tell you that you are wrong.My sister is schizophrenic and is one of the nicest ,most generous sweetest people you can meet when she is on her medication. She has been ill since 17 years old and is now 65. She is almost childlike in her demeanor…There are different types of schizophrenia….Many of them fight hard to avoid medication and help. Yet others ,like my sister had numerous treatments, including shock in a vain effort to cure her illness. Her life has been a lonely tortured existence…she does not attack people…But the voices she still hears even medicated are confusing and an affliction that has made her life one I would choose not to live…..So it is more complicated than that…Did you read the Drs description I eneterd? It eplains the differences to you…….In her early years at times she did seem as though possessed, but they didn’t have any of the drugs they have today when she first became ill.
Mellen on April 20, 2007 at 11:57 PM
I don’t believe I “attacked” you, and you called me out here. I’m sorry that you’re part of this victim culture. You or someone close to you has been able to excuse behavior because some Dr. told you it wasn’t your fault, so you feel the need to play it up in all instances to justify your own issues and to convince yourself that your (or whoever it is) actions and thoughts are different “but it’s not our fault”, we’re just “wired differently”. You know full well if they did a “sweep” interviewing people looking for schizos suddenly we’d see headlines “millions possibly affected, to varying degrees”. It’s the victim culture where no one takes responsibility for having issues they need to either talk to God about or get a kick in the pants and told to grow up. Some people will always be outcasts and live what truly should be called “alternative lifestyles” (a term gays shouldn’t have gotten to take). Oh I know, I know, nothing is anyone’s fault. Eatting is a mental illness! Drinking and substance abuse is a mental illness!
In high school I used to have to go see a shrink and get prescribed ADD and depression medicine because suddenly I started getting shi**y grades. It’s called – I hated high school, our teachers were horrible, we did virtually no class work and they assigned hours of homework that I didn’t care about doing because I could do well enough on tests to get a passing grade. I just wanted to get out in the real world. But instead, because I tested at college levels when I was a sophomore in high school they pumped pills in me (like they did to hundreds of other kids, and it gets worse every year). I took them for roughly one school year. I changed pills constantly because I got all the dry mouth, etc. effects. Some made me concentrate better, some made me more alert, some made me crash in the afternoons, some made me moody. Today I wish I’d never taken them, and I don’t discount that there is such thing as depression, and that I’m supposedly more susceptible to it because both of my parents (divorced since I was 2) “have it”… But I’m not going to be a lazy turd and refuse to work and be some kind of loser and embarrassment to my family. I’m not going to play weak victim. I’m going to acknowledge that depression is an excuse to be a victim, and I’m going to take responsibility for my own life.
Whatever, I’m just so tired of this mental illness crap. When is an evil person ever going to just be evil? When are hardened criminals not “products of their environments”? This kid was an evil SOB. He may have been a loser, but he chose to let it get to him. Particularly after leaving high school, you start fresh, even if you are weird. He chose to be who he was, and those choices weren’t based on his “fantasy”, his fantasy (if he even had one) was to make himself look like he wasn’t the pathetic douche he was, and act like he really mattered. He knows no one would have cared if he’d just killed himself. He was desperate for attention, so he made this whole plan with the videos and murdered a bunch of innocent people to get famous.
RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 11:59 PM
Sailor Dave, You are missing the point..There is a group called The Alliance for the Mentally Ill. It is a group of people who have relatives with mental illness that joined together to help each other because it is the most ignored illness even today. Thanks to the laws we have today we have homeless schizophrenics on the streets. Years ago there were mental hospitals where they could go and be treated. That is not the case anyomre.. This is why this happened…years ago treatment and hospitals were more available…This could have been avoided …..haven’t you ever noticed homeless people on the street? Many of them are schizophrenics, and harmless, some are not..It is etremely hard for families to get help for them ….They can no more control their actions than one can control an alzheimers patient.
Mellen on April 21, 2007 at 12:03 AM
I misspoke: For some reason I thought I read that it was addressed to Williams, but it was to Steve Capus. Which is even weirder, if such a thing is even possible at this point.
Jim Treacher on April 21, 2007 at 12:10 AM
Mellen,
Please don’t misunderstand me. Those people who are truly dysfunctional and homeless are not involved in this debate. We are talking about a psychopath who was able to reach his fourth year at a major university. Not exactly a rambling street corner denizen.
And there was a lot more planning put into this than a severely affected mental dysfunction would permit. This a-hole put more thought into his rampage than I put into my yearly tax planning. Don’t defame all the truly sick people in need by tossing him in their midst.
SailorDave on April 21, 2007 at 12:12 AM
Last post…
Schizophrenia is a BRAIN DISEASE!!! Like cancer is a disease….It is not a personality disorder…You really could use an education
Pretending it isn’t does nothing to help the problem. The ACLU and lawyers need to get out of the way and allow people to get help for their relatives……They need to reinstate hospitals for the severely mentally ill…By the way, I am not a victim, I am a guardian for a person who is mentally ill with schizophrenia,..it is similar to mental retardation…but I suppose you think those people are also “faking it” …..
I think psychiatrists today, mainly due to Big Pharma push too many pills on people…But some people would be dead without them….ans yes I agree Chou is better off dead…but then I always thought my sister would be to…
Anyway NUFF said..just trying to eplain it to you….trying to understand his actions is a big ole waste of time….He was NUTS-Psychotic, Out of his mind……And IGNORANCE of his illness is what allowed this horrible thing to happen.
Mellen on April 21, 2007 at 12:13 AM
The DailyKos is honoring the Murderer
Egfrow on April 21, 2007 at 12:14 AM
More victims. These aren’t bums or people who screwed up their lives and refuse to pick themselves up by their bootstraps. As I said, alcoholics? Victims! Fat people? Victims! A-holes? Victims! Bitches? Victims! Bad drivers? Victims!
RightWinged on April 21, 2007 at 12:15 AM
Mellen, I misspoke. I was calling RightWinged and those like him ignorant. My attempt at sarcasm was poor.
I have bipolar disorder and was diagnosed at 7 years old. I was part of a study at NIMH in the 1980’s to determine if children can have manic depression. My father and his side of the family were convinced there was nothing physically wrong with me, that I was just being bad. Does anybody have any idea how supremely counterproductive that was to my recovery? To make matters worse, when my parents divorced, I was taken off of my medication by my father, because he, as a professional condominium manager was sooooo learned in psychiatry and neurology (sarcasm again). A year later I began using street drugs and continued to until I was 17, at which time I was hospitalized for being suicidal. I began taking my medication again after that and have been more or less sane ever since.
So when I hear people so quick to call the actions of a mad man evil, it makes my blood boil. Nobody who calls Cho evil gives a damn about the real reason this happened or how we might prevent it in the future. They just want to take out their anger and sorrow on SOMEONE or SOMETHING. While I do too, I don’t recognize Cho as the target. And I know who the victims were here: the VT students and teachers and their families. I could care less if people call Cho a victim or a predator as long as they understand that there are millions of potential Cho’s walking the streets of this country right now and that taking a stance of ignorance toward mental illness is nothing short of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
You people better get a grip on the reality of mental illness because it’s here and it’s not going anywhere. Chances are that it will crop up in your own family. What will you do then?
Unless you are prepared to just slaughter all of us outright, you better learn how to understand, and if need be, help us when we need it. Once we lose control of our minds, we are already dead. That’s what you guys don’t seem to understand. During all that insidious planning that Cho did, he was dead already. And the fact that he was so meticulous and so careful and so precise worries me even more about people with this illness.
Like I said in a previous post, I have and will do whatever I can to keep the mentally ill around me healthy. I stay healthy myself and provide example. I will take them to the hospital or doctor if they need it. And if they are seriously in crisis, I will call the police or use force against them. And I would expect anyone else to do the same for me.
Don’t scratch your heads and wonder why nobody “noticed” or did anything to stop him before he woke up on Monday. Your ignorance on this very web sight is the clearest example of why nobody stopped him: nobody knew what it was or how to deal with it. He was just “evil” or “mean” and they left him alone. And in his solitude, he listened to the voices, and the voices told him to buy guns and kill people. For all we know, when he looked at his fellow humans, he saw the faces of demons. Don’t doubt it, not even for a minute.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 12:15 AM
Sailor-The Unabomber was a Math Genius AND A SCHIZOPHRENIC..
HAVEN’T YOU EVER HEARD MENTAL ILLNESS AND GENIUS ARE RELATED…VAN GOGH, HEMINGWAY,F. Scott Fitzgerald, Many many writers were mentally ill. It’s not an excuse-it’s a fact.
Mellen on April 21, 2007 at 12:17 AM
Who in the Hell made you the resident psychiatrist? This kind of cold calculation is exactly what makes schizophrenia so frightening. The mumblers and the droolers are the ones who are actually taking the right medication. Do you get it now????
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 12:18 AM
Again, you’re saying it wasn’t his fault Mellen. And where did I say anything about “faking it”? YOU keep putting those words in my mouth. People have problems, but it’s not always a “disease”. We have a hypochondriac disease/victim culture because it removes the idea of personal responsibility. Retarded people are clearly retarded, that comparison is retarded.
It’s not just pills being pushed, it’s disease labels. It’s not just big pharma, it’s partly doctors who need return customers. Are there really that many more “disorders” these days? Or is it primarily people labeling normal issues in order to rationalize behavior?
RightWinged on April 21, 2007 at 12:19 AM
Unamused,
I have suffered from depression since childhood. Check the archives to see how many killing sprees I’ve had. Stop excusing bad behavior.
Or are we supposed to just accept that some folks should be allowed to kill us so they can work through their “issues”?
SailorDave on April 21, 2007 at 12:22 AM
Unamused…Bipolar is more prevalent today than ever….One of the more famous bipolars is Patty Duke…you may be too young to remember her..BUT she is an actress and won an Oscar for playing Helen Keller as a child actress with Ann Bancroft…She later wrote a book about her manic depression and what hell her life was.then..she wrote another book about her recovery with lithium and told others how to recover which evened her out and her life became much more manageable…She was also in Valley of The Dolls with Sharon tate when she was older….great actress…. but bipolar is not as severe as schizophrenia. I happen to believe that our diets and chemicals in our lives has cause dan increase in mental disorders but unfortunately there is not enough research done on these ilnesses…a shamesince they cause more disabilty than almost any other illnessess. As far as the homeless , many ARE mentally ill,…Famous case..Margot Kidder another actress had a abreakdown…(she was Lois Lane in the Superman movie with Christopher Reeves) She had a breakdown nd was found living on the street with homeess people totally out of it!! This is after she was famous…Interestingly enough she is now back to normal through alternative mental health treatments offered through orthomolecular doctors who treat with vitamins,amino acids etc…..More should be studied about those things too,,,
Mellen on April 21, 2007 at 12:29 AM
Yes, I recall those old news reels of their killing sprees. You have made your point very well. They were quite the mass murderers too. Shall we count Cho as a master of modern American literature?
SailorDave on April 21, 2007 at 12:30 AM
Right Winged–SCHIZOPHRENIA is a brain disorder…if you look at the brain of a schizophrenic it looks different than a normal person….get yourself a book on it…or ask a dr about it…It is one of the most feared diseases in the entire world
Mellen on April 21, 2007 at 12:33 AM
Sailor Dave- I never said they killed and people are not all alike…they suffered depression which is a mental illness…as dd MIKE WALLACE, ART BUCHWALD, Do you know who they are?? I give up…you really need to get educated……..
Mellen on April 21, 2007 at 12:34 AM
That’s right RightWinged, and I am more angry at the drug companies and the libs for using mental health as a shield.
For those of us who have had spinal taps and scientific evaluation of our brain chemical contents, it does nothing but cheapen what we go through and drive regular americans towards skepticism.
I have two young boys, 6 and 8. My oldest has a form of autism. I refused to believe it from a single doctor, we took him to 6. They wanted to medicate him when he was 4, I refused. I wonder what may have been if Lithium wasn’t introduced into my system at 7 years old. So we tried behavioral and environmental changes. I’m proud to say that 4 years later he is attending public school and performing at a much higher grade level than his classmates.
I went through the same mental exercise with my youngest who doctors wanted to give ritalin. I refused. What he needed was for his father to be sane and nicer to him and his mother. Again, I’m happy to say he is doing just fine without drugs.
My point is that I hold personal responsibility in the highest regard–more so for the mentally ill. I don’t know Cho, but I know his behavior (aside from the shootings). Once he crossed the line into harming others, he earned that bullet. Sick or not, there is no excuse for murder. “I heard voices” does not do it for me if I were to talk with him about this. Every ill person knows they are ill if they have seen a doctor. Cho knew he was ill and probably stopped taking his meds. It is common for psych patients to not take their meds either because the side-effects make life hard for them (heavy nausea 24/7, inability to sleep, incapacitating lethargy) or they feel less than human for having to survive on a little pink or yellow pill. And we all know the consequences of not taking our meds or seeing our doctor. The first person to scold us for not taking care of ourselves is our doctor because the stakes are so very high.
No doubt, Cho did this. Like an alcoholic who murders in a blackout, he knew damn well that bad things would happen if he deviated from his treatment, but he did it anyway. And now he’s dead and so are so many others because of it. I imagine that consequence is not lost on his soul.
The blame is all his. He did this and he alone. The fact that in not following the orders of a judge or his doctor set this all in motion does not, in my mind, make him evil. But those of us who understand mental illness see that critical decision of his as the ultimate cause of all of this.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 12:36 AM
Most kill only themselves …as Hemingway did..Van Gogh Lincoln suffered from severe depression as did Winston Churchill who called it his Black Dog……you must be very young…or I am very old…don’t you know this stuff??.
Mellen on April 21, 2007 at 12:37 AM
No, just the ones who go on a murderous rampage. Why don’t you go try out your theories on the families and friends of these people? I’m sure they’d love it. “The guy who killed your daughter and all those other people, have you stopped to think that he’s a victim too?”
Jim Treacher on April 21, 2007 at 12:37 AM
Unammused- I don’t know about you but I would rather find ways to prevent it from happening again….His history should have gotten him committed or hospitalized…it didn’t,… years ago it would have and those people would be alive…….
Mellen on April 21, 2007 at 12:39 AM
And that allows you to make judgments on schizophrenia…how?
Have you ever hallucinated to the point that you interacted with the hallucination? Have you heard a baby’s cry in the night that wasn’t there? Those two are fairly regular symptoms of schizophrenia.
I have a better example: when was the last time you honestly believed that NBC was plotting against you personally? Did your wife call the police on you because of how paranoid you were of NBC? When given the propper medication did you then feel deep shame at how you acted and helplessness in the face of your own mind because you remember what it felt like to be so sure that NBC was trying to destroy you? Can you grasp this or are you just too comfortable in your contempt to even try to understand?
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 12:40 AM
Whats the use??????
The ignorance about mental illness is as pervasive as ever .
Ciao baby!!
Mellen on April 21, 2007 at 12:41 AM
Just because I say he’s not evil does not mean I think he’s a victim in the shooting.
He threw his right to victimhood out the window the second he fired a shot at a co-ed.
And would I tell the families of the victims this? No way. That would be stupid considering what they are going through. I would not expect them to even want to talk about the experience. If it comforts them to believe him evil, so be it. What I’m trying to do here is make sure YOU guys know that this kind of thing can be stopped by reinstating the ability to involuntarily commit a person who is dangerous OR by just being aware and vigilant.
But no, you’d rather burn someone in effigy. If it makes you feel better, burn me in effigy, but remember my words if you ever come across someone like Cho. You can stop them before they get evil.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 12:45 AM
NBC, CNN, CBS and ABC ARE trying to destroy me. What’s your point?
SailorDave on April 21, 2007 at 12:46 AM
More prevalent? Or diagnosed more often? And I don’t mean “recognized”, I mean diagnosed, correctly and otherwise.
Yes, millions upon millions have these “illnesses” and get by. But every time a douche bag murders a bunch of people, “he’s a victim of a disease!”
Do we have any evidence that he ever took any medication?
I’m sorry, any time someone acts a certain way and kills a bunch of people, you guys are going to blame it on an illness. I know, I know, you say it’s his fault for not dealing with the problem… but as long as “illness” is still assumed, he’s got an excuse to an extent.
I say he just didn’t deal with stuff like a normal person. Maybe he had crappy parents? Who knows. But there are plenty of people who deal with sh** in their own ways. Others make a plan to go kill people, and then have the world blame it on mental illness. Whether you consider what you’re doing as rationalizing his behavior or not, the fact that you’re so quick to do it is because you need an answer. It’s the same reason conspiracy theorists come up with conspiracy theories. You need something to blame, and you choose to blame illness. Some will blame it on Satan. I blame it on the society of pussies we’ve become. This kid was selfish and desperate for attention, and makes himself out to be this victim of “the world”. Some think he may be screwed up from possible molestation. He talked about it in his plays, and in the manifesto he talks about John Mark Carr and Debra Lavafe. Maybe that screwed him up, but there are millions who’ve been molested and deal with it differently. They didn’t kill a few dozen people. Sometimes things happen to people and they don’t deal with them like a “normal” person might. But that doesn’t make them a victim of an “illness”.
RightWinged on April 21, 2007 at 12:56 AM
The problem is, this isn’t an epidemic. You’re acting like there are millions of these people roaming the streets like this guy, and that we should be scared because it’s going to keep happening. The problem is it RARELY happens. If this were such a common issue, the story would be so common it wouldn’t even be news..
I know, seriously!
RightWinged on April 21, 2007 at 1:02 AM
RightWinged, you are soooo sure of yourself in a matter you know nothing about.
Hubris.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 1:02 AM
I don’t want to speak for RW’ed, but I think we are talking about 32 worthy, promising and righteous lives being extinguished by a thing that could only be known by extinguishing them.
Thanks to NBC, et al, he got his death wish.
SailorDave on April 21, 2007 at 1:09 AM
You’re right, everything anyone ever does wrong is obviously due to an illness. My bad.
RightWinged on April 21, 2007 at 1:16 AM
If every time a student threatened or told someone they were going to go on a rampage, most of these shootings could have been stopped. I think the problem is twofold, one, they fear the embarrassment of being wrong (Greg Gutfeld wrote a great piece on terrorism and people who are refused to address potential dangers because they fear being wrong and embarrassed), or they fear that the kids is nuts and will end up shooting them for telling someone of they can’t prove it or take care of the problem effectively.
Nearly every one of these shootings the shooter tells someone, and their confidantes don’t report it. Same deal at my school, the student said they were gonna shoot their tormentor, and it wasn’t reported, and surprise, we became national news too!
I agree that we need to watch for these people, the problems are many: We’ve decided that its wrong and/or unethical to have people committed, and that isn’t gonna change for decades. Its been portrayed as the pinnacle of abuse for a loooong time. Many of the shooters HAVE been receiving psych treatment, but they still go off.
Many schools are afraid to approach these issues, because of fear of bad reactions from the families, possibly even legal action. Many parents refuse to acknowledge the problems their child have at all, and without parental consent, there’s no treatment.
There is a general breakdown in many schools, and students pretty much run it like Lord of the Flies, and kids that fit the shooters profiles are harassed and alienated further, the schools ineffectiveness at controlling harassment of students is like letting kids play with a live grenade, at some point the pin might get pulled.
You can tell kids that are harassed that, its school, it ain’t the real world, man up nancy, you’ll be out soon, but most kids don’t think that way, doubly true of someone with issues.
These kids basically go into Angel of Death mode and start killing and terrorizing whatever it is that harassed them or was ineffective in controlling their tormentors, many people choose to dismiss this out of hand, even the FBI(I think) whatever, it was a Clinton panel after several shootings, put a high emphasis on ‘perceived’ injustice or harassment.
Its a big mistake to dismiss it as perceived injustice, often the injustice is entirely real. But its a convenient one, because it keeps responsibilty away from schools, if you’ll excuse the expression, educators let the inmates run the asylum. This doesn’t apply to VTech, as we are talking about a uni, but in grade school it applies, perhaps many of Cho’s issues from grade school were carried over into his college career.
Sometimes its a case of too little, too late in terms of care. That was the case in the shooting at my school, and many others. A lot of times its just an issue of not having the pieces fall into place.
As for the chastisements toward those who aren’t up to speed on psych issues, you only know about them because you’ve dealt with them extensively. I have a fair understanding of what these people are and what they do because I had it happened at my school, and its an issue that I’ve studied a lot. And if you go back through my predictions throughout the Vtech threads, I’d say my predictions on this guy have been pretty accurate.
Also, trying to weed out the loners, quiet types, nerds and weirdos from the nuts, and the nuts that could be the next Cho is difficult, plus you risk agitating people into instability if you don’t tread carefully.
This is a highly complex issue, I disagree with the assertion that the guy was Evil Incarnate, but he WAS evil as a product of madness when he decided to go on a murderous rampage. Which is kinda a way of saying theres a middle ground here, and with that Ted Kaczynski sized manifesto, I’ll stop.
Bad Candy on April 21, 2007 at 1:29 AM
I think Al Sharpton said it best in January
Argue with that!
RightWinged on April 21, 2007 at 1:36 AM
I don’t believe that he is a schizophrenic, he is more a psychopath
Ropera on April 21, 2007 at 2:23 AM
This girl has 4 albums in her webshots account. 3 of them (all except “Camping Trip”) contain photos of an Asian dude named “Joe”. We learned a couple days ago that Cho is actually pronounced more like “Joe”.
I would link you to specific pictures, but multiple links will get this hung up in the spam filter, so just take a minute to go look in the other three albums for any photo of “Joe”, and tell me he doesn’t look virtually identical to Cho… only happy.
Keep in mind these photos are roughly 4 years old, but I have reason to believe these people lived in Harper Hall (where he lived). A couple of photos in the Karaoke Night album are entitled “Harper Halllllllll :) Michelle, Jim, & ME!” and “4th Floor Harper Hall Represent!”
Anyway, make sure you see all dozen or so pictures in the 3 albums and compare them with Cho. Sometimes I think the eyebrows don’t match, but in some photos Cho’s just look shorter when he’s trying to make his tough/mad face in the videos, but they are slightly thinner and extend further across the top of his eye in other photos (more like how Joe’s look most of the time.
http://community.webshots.com/user/shakey2150
The obvious assumption is that it’s not him because we’ve heard him described the same way by his roommates all the way back to former middle school classmates. And I’m not even trying to convince anyone it is, because I don’t think it could be. But tell me that doesn’t look like him (and don’t be thrown by his shaved head in his videos, that was new, his hair and hairline, even shape of sideburns were just like this kid’s before).
RightWinged on April 21, 2007 at 6:02 AM
According to Tom Plate, former LA Times editor, writing at CNN:
“These students were not killed by a Korean, they were killed by a 9 mm handgun and a .22-caliber handgun.”
Quisp on April 21, 2007 at 10:01 AM
I admire Allahpundit’s cool forthrightness.
Kralizec on April 21, 2007 at 10:22 AM
I’m pleased on that small point. To my knowledge, the people who were murdered at Virginia Tech had long since been disarmed. Nor can I imagine that many of the students had ever been trained to fight. Did they become safer with each year they spent unarmed and not knowing how to fight? I’m reminded of the Rape of Nanking: Only after the men of Nanking were disarmed could the bayonet practice begin.
But I came here to link to Mark Steyn’s attack on “The Culture of Passivity.” You see, I’ve never learned to write articles to make my points, because I depend on Mark Steyn to do it for me.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YzEzYzQ0Y2MyZjNlNjY1ZTEzMTA0MGRmM2EyMTQ0NjY=
Kralizec on April 21, 2007 at 10:59 AM
I think what you’re touching on here is a key point that those tossing “crazy” and “schizophrenic” around seem to be missing.
The key point is this: if he had survived his massacre, would a court have found him not guilty due to diminished mental capacity?
When we call him “crazy,” it’s really only the legal standard that matters. Of course he was crazy by any moral, ethical, or even psychological standard – but was he really “crazy” in the eyes of the law?
I don’t think so. In fact, I don’t think it’s even close. Had he lived, his attorneys would have tried it, of course, but I think the things you list – his continued functionality, the cold calculation, his obvious understanding of what he was doing, the specific targeting, the premeditation (especially during the extended time period waiting for the second handgun) … all of that in its entirety suggests that, legally, he was not even in the ballpark of “crazy.”
He would have been convincted in a court of law. Thus, I have no interest in the posthumous “schizo” defense. He knew what he was doing.
The only actual insanity I see are those who are still opposed to arming themselves. Now that’s clearly nucking futs.
Professor Blather on April 21, 2007 at 11:23 AM
You know, I really sympathize with children that are the victims of serious bullying. I do. In some cases it is horrific. Frankly, I’d like to see real punishment for the bullies – as in prison time in some cases.
But what gets me is that the “victims,” when they finally snap, never seem to go after the bullies.
While I wouldn’t excuse it, if some little geek was tortured for a few years by some big dumb jocks at his high school, and then capped all the bastards (and just them), I’d at least understand.
But it never seems to happen that way. The victim of bullying just becomes a bully himself, and goes and picks on (or murders) complete innocents. I’m sure Cho was bullied, I have no doubt. So how did shooting up a bunch of strangers, including young women, have anything to do with that?
Anybody rememeber Bernie Goetz? For those too young, in the mid-80s he was picked on in a subway by four thugs. They had sharpened screwdrivers. Bernie was a geeky little guy who got tired of being picked on. The bullies picked the wrong guy that day … and he put a round or two in every one of them.
I never felt sorry for those “victims.” They got what they deserved.
Professor Blather on April 21, 2007 at 11:33 AM
I was so appalled by this that I actually followed your link, and visiting Kos is not high on the list of things I enjoy.
Sure enough, the original post is almost mind-bogglingly evil. Beyond stupid. Truly unbelievable.
But you know what? I read through the comments, and I have to give them credit: a significant number of the commenters have the right idea and are calling BS on the original post. Good for them.
(Of course, there’s also a good number of “poor baby was off his meds” comments, too. But I’m being nice here. The intelligent comments were far more common than I expected.)
Professor Blather on April 21, 2007 at 11:45 AM
The problem with your viewpoint is pretty obvious: it raises one very obvious question – is ANYBODY ever just plain “evil” or “mean” or “bad?”
When I read your post, it occurs to me that if I accept what you’re saying … then I’m not sure how anybody can ever be held responsible for their actions.
Must I then assume that Osama bin Laden has a mental illness and a bad childhood?
Don’t get me wrong – I understand what you’re saying. But where do YOU draw the line. If Cho wasn’t evil – who is?
And since you bring it up, if there are “millions” of schizophrenics, many of them not medicated … what made Cho go on rampage – and not them?
No offense, but I think you’re reasoning is just as overly simplistic as those you’re arguing against.
Is anybody evil in your world? If so – how do you know?
Professor Blather on April 21, 2007 at 11:55 AM
We should, it was better than most of that deconstructive crap I read in my Modern Literature class….
Tim Burton on April 21, 2007 at 1:35 PM
Blather,
My point was that the time to help people like Cho is BEFORE they become sick enough to kill.
I agree, evil is as evil does. He was evil on Monday, and deserving of his last bullet, or the first bullet of anyone who could have been carrying a firearm.
I guess my problem is that this group is so quick to dismiss his actions as evil. This leaves us no recourse to stop future Cho’s.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 1:54 PM
As a matter of fact, after having slept on this, I agree with what RightWinged and Slublog have said. Their seeming lack of knowledge about severe mental illness tempted me to play devil’s advocate for a while. I feel very strongly that our country is far too ignorant of mental illness. The left has seen to it that we cannot protect ourselves or our loved ones from those who have gone off the deep end and should be committed for life.
I came to conservatism initially because those who helped me recover from the mess my life was in the mid 1990’s refused to accept any excuses from me, including mental defect. They said, “If you like what you are getting, keep doing what you are doing. If not, do something different.”
So personal responsibility and accountability are, in my experience, the BEST tools for the mentally ill to recover. And my point about helping those who are ill didn’t mean that we excuse their behavior and do things for them. It meant that we pay careful attention and kick them in their rear when they needed to continue getting help for themselves.
This is why I speculated that Cho was on medication at one point and stopped taking it. At some point in his life, he was rational enough to, as many have said “make it through years at a university”. And at some point he made a rational decision to give in to his inner demons, his illness. I can relate, I have done the same. And so the destruction that followed was his fault and his alone. My message to you guys was that, since he is dead, I feel the need to focus my attention on how to keep YOU guys and your families safe. Were he in a court of law today, I wouldn’t care if the verdict was guilty and they gave him death/life in prison or if he was found to be not guilty by defect and locked up for life–so long as he was never to step foot on our soil again.
Since the difference between illness and evil will always be nebulous, I have to come down on the side of the ability to ultimately put a raging psychopath down with the same indifference we would a rabid dog. They are lost to us at that point and can only bring suffering and misery.
I live with the reality that skipping doses of medication can lead to mass murder. And should I show up in public with a weapon and desire to kill, I could care less if you see me as evil or not, as long as you stop me at all costs.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 2:37 PM
BTW, there was a time when I expected everyone around me to excuse my behavior due to my having bipolar disorder. It worked with some people for some time, but in the end those that love me had no choice but to distance themselves from me.
I lost my wife and my job, and I was truly mentally ill. But the fact that I was ill did not give me or win me my wife and kids back. I finally realized that, ill or not, my behavior is what people MUST judge me on. So I had to find a way to make sure my illness did not influence my behavior anymore. I had to be fully responsible for my illness. This is the same realization the main character in A Beautiful Mind came too. You can be ill or have a normal life, not both.
So when I deal with the mentally ill who are struggling and being told by the left that it’s ok to be sick, I push them towards taking responsibility. Whenever they say, “I can’t”, I say “why not?” And if their answer is “I’m crazy”, then I tell them, “You will be alone in your craziness, no matter what the tree-huggers tell you.” And if they can’t be reasoned with, I try to talk them into seeing a doctor. If they are violent, I call 911.
I’m sorry if I offended any of you this week. It was not my intention to do so. This is an issue that hits close to home with me. Recognizing the evil in Cho forces me to recognize the evil in me and it scares the hell out of me.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 2:47 PM
I suspect the investigation — ’seizing’ the computer and and cell phone of Emily Hilscher — is mostly the collection of things that might give police information and leads. Maybe Cho called or sent e-mails to her, anonymous or otherwise.
Here’s a possible variation of the Hilscher target of opportunity line of thinking, though it doesn’t fit well from what info I have of the events it does advance the ‘hit list’ line of thinking. Cho went to AJH not to get Hilscher but to get Clark– he’s an English major. Hilscher bumped into Cho on coming back to the dorm and maybe questioned why he was there waiting around (maybe Cho was having last minute second thoughts or planning to take out Ryan on the way to class.) It might have been she was just a staring at him and he said “What you looking at!” and it went down hill from there. It was only coincidence Clark was RA and responded thus, looking like the innocent intervening bystander.
I’d also note, IIRC, that Alammedine was in one of Cho’s English classes and attempted to talk to him to get him to open up. so that’s two folks that have the English connection, not the Engineering connection.
This line is harder to track because it’s the English major track whereas an Engineering one is simple because he went to an Engineering Bldg. But the foreign language classes are heavy there too, which course structure is likely also heavy with English. So why not the English. Everyone takes a couple English classes at some time in their 4 years.
If Cho kept hit lists it could have included folks from a year or so ago from English classes and the list is of people from those classes who commented that his essays were “Dark, man.” and “You got head problems!” (Of course, those folks were then probably the Engineers.)
I don’t discount the Engineering possibility. I’m just suggesting people might be starting to look at the events from a rut.
Dusty on April 21, 2007 at 3:08 PM
I guess my question for you – or for those you’re arguing with – is why does it have to be such an either/or all-or-nothing proposition?
Do you seriously believe that the only two options are 1) never use the word “evil” and approach every mass murderer as a probable mental health case, or 2) “have no recourse to stop” future murders?
That’s it? The only possible choices?
As usual, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Of course we should recognize the importance of dealing with mental health issues. And of course we should also recognize that not every act of evil stems from mental health issues.
There. Was that so hard? My bills in the mail. I accept Visa.
For what it’s worth, Unamused, I don’t think anybody here is really arguing with your basic point. I think what’s bothering people (and you can put me on the list) is that it really seems like in the last 30-40 years, EVERYTHING has become tied to some illness or other … whether the illness actually exists or not.
Drink too much? You’ve got a disease! Steal stuff? You’re sick! Mean to your kids? Take your meds! Murdered a few dozen of your classmates? It’s your doctor’s fault. Or society’s. Or your parents. Definitely not yours. Cuz you’re ill!
Do you know the the reported incidence of some conditions (like autism, for example) have skyrocketed exponentially just in the last 20 years? The truth, of course, is that the “diseases” haven’t haven’t suddenly exploded – it’s just the diagnosis that has. That “culture of victimology” that other posters referenced has led to a propensity to assume illness as causation for everything.
It’s funny, but in a way the whole thing reminds me of the global warming debate. The same logic. It’s much easier to assume cars and cow farts are responsible for minor temperature changes … rather than just calling it “weather.”
What’s the truth? The truth is that “illness” is vastly over-reported as a cause for behavior. I’d conservatively guess 99% of the things blamed on “illness” have nothing to do with organic, biological, or chemical conditions. Just a guess, of course, but I’ll bet I’m close. Mental illness is unquestionably far more rare than the pharmaceutical industry and the psychology profession wants you to think.
But that doesn’t mean the 1% is any less serious. There are, unquestionably, millions suffering real mental illness.
The problem, of course, is that (like, say, the Duke rape case) the 1% that needs serious attention gets ignored because of the 99% – and the real issues of that 1% get shoved over onto the 99%.
When everything is labeled an illness, nothing is an illness. When nothing is labeled as evil, real evil gets away with its crimes.
I don’t think you offended anybody. But if you’re part of my 1%, it should be people like you who are most vocal in fighting the 99%. Calling everything an illness has limited what can be done for the real sufferers.
In fact, if we assume for the sake of argument that Cho really was seriously mentally ill … you could argue that if it weren’t for this massive cultural shift towards the assumption that EVERYTHING is blamed on illness, our society might have been better able to identify Cho’s behavior and address it, before it was too late.
Ironic, isn’t it? But the argument is there. If you are quick to jump on “illness” as the reason for everything (as quick as some people are to jump on “evil”) then real mental illness is going to go unnoticed. If you wanted to, you could blame that very culture for what happened this week.
I think that’s what people are reacting to. I don’t think anybody here is really minimizing real mental illness.
Cuz that’d be crazy.
Professor Blather on April 21, 2007 at 3:09 PM
So you have a mental disorder. I have certain physical disorders, such as extreme nearsightedness. It is my responsibility to have the contact lenses in before I get behind the wheel of a car. I can’t just go run over pedestrians and say “But I have myopia!”
It is your responsibility to take your meds. If a person has a mental problem that prevents them from taking the medication that keeps them from being a threat to others, then we have to insist that they be institutionalized to some extent or other. If that means wearing an ankle bracelet like a parolee, and having to check in to have someone administer the meds on schedule, so be it.
It’s a shame that some of the commenters here have family members with mental problems. But we all have problems. It’s our responsibility to make sure our problems don’t threaten to become others’ as well.
The Monster on April 21, 2007 at 3:29 PM
My gut instinct all along has been that he (possibly deluded) believed that the girl was going to go on the rampage with him. That would have been the reason for the .22 cal. pistol and not another 9mm. What happened would be consistent with him going over to inform her that “today was the day”, she refused to participate or had previously thought that his plan was fantasy and was shocked to discover that he was really going to do it. He goes back to his dorm, gets the gun, shoots her and the RA to keep his plan safe from exposure until he is ready to pull it off.
Everything else in his plan is so well thought though … the chains for closing the doors is one example. Why have two different guns that require two different kinds of ammunition that you have to keep straight? I still believe that he thought she was going to be using the .22
crosspatch on April 21, 2007 at 4:06 PM
I teach at a large university and this incident has made me think about a lot of things. Neither of my classrooms would be a safe haven in case of an attack, and there’s no way out but the doors, which I don’t think lock from the inside, and one of which has little or no furniture that could be used to block the doors or at least create an obstacle course.
The classroom next to mine is a huge auditorium and there are several of those on campus, with seating for several hundred students. I can’t imagine the carnage had Cho gone into an auditorium rather than the smaller classrooms he seems to have chosen. I’ve wondered about his thought processes. Maybe he figured that it would be easier to wipe out smaller groups of people because there would be less risk of being rushed when he reloaded.
Someone could easily carry a small arsenal in the ubiquitous student backpack, right under the noses of the police officers who are more visible on campus these days.
Remote possibility of something happening on my campus, but if something did happen, there wouldn’t be much anyone could do about it, unfortunately.
LibbyLA on April 21, 2007 at 4:39 PM
Saint Kansas-
More on the bad vomit inducing poetry subject. Have you seen this gem by Rosie O’Donnell?
That is painful, but I have to admit it is just as “good” as Nikki Giovanni’s.
januarius on April 21, 2007 at 5:11 PM
Then again, he did his stupid John Woo poses with them. And from what we’re being told, he was never much of a joiner.
Jim Treacher on April 21, 2007 at 6:24 PM
Some of the people here seem to be skimming my posts. Don’t latch onto what’s an obvious inflammatory statement by me and respond without reading the rest.
Blather does a good job of seeing what I’m saying.
The leftist idea that I needed to be embraced or hugged or reintroduced to my “inner child” did MORE damage to my mental health than the ideas of those who regarded it as purely evil.
At least the ones who saw it as evil were trying to get me to take responsibility for my actions, which I believe is the ONLY road to recovery for the mentally ill.
I came from the point of view that we need to understand before we decide what to do because you guys are NOT leftists. You understand the need for personal responsibility, which is why I come to this site in the first place. I offered the insight I thought was needed.
That said, I think we are about to be in the throws of some awful copy-catting by those who have been coddled by the left and inspired by the media. What’s worse is that I see no end in sight.
I can’t carry a gun because of my past. Even if I could, I wouldn’t until my boys are old enough to go shoot one with me so that I can teach them proper gun safety like my step father did me. But I hope that those of you who can carry, do. My mother carries one and I feel better about her safety because of it. I see our right to carry a loaded weapon as the only short-term, and possibly long-term, solution to this kind of tragedy.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 7:07 PM
The video and manifestos prove the entire thing was methodically planned and organized in advance. It was impossible for him to have filmed all that and packaged it up for the mail in the space of an hour. Where did he do it? Where did he store his weapons – on the gun-free-campus?
Since the excerpts from NBC seem to lead the readers to the assertation that he was “bullied” and so forth, what are they not telling us?
Seems like chum just for the Liberal media to circle around, the standard Leftie whinging about bullies. That sticks out like a sore thumb. The MSM is latching on to that to lead us all up, down and around the cowpaths to argue the Left uber-meme that America is intolerant, which chews up space that could be put to use discussing and reporting real, pertinent news about the massacre.
If you have kids in school, you’d notice it, but if you don’t you’d miss it. “Bullying” is the cause de jour for the Left education operators. Our kids’ school just ran a bunch of hapless boys through it and all the resources linked to the subject are typical Left sterotyping, with all cases of bullying eventually, somehow, someway worked back to the usual culprits: “Southern white boys.”
To see Cho’s complaint as being, “bullied” seems incredibly convenient, even tinny sounding. We obviously have to assume he wasn’t lying. What if he’d never been bullied? What then? American classrooms are oppressively correct. Teachers have a bird if they think someone is being slighted, even if he wasn’t. Cho’s rant about asking Americans if they have ever been tortured, burned, etc, also makes no sense. He wasn’t either, and wacked as he was, he knew that. He’s talking about a third party – an oppressed people. Well, did his writings reveal that in more detail? How are we supposed to make any sense of a redacted rant? The guy didn’t get Jesus Christ correct, why should we think anything else he said was reliable, especially given the way we are being spoon-fed the text?
I hate what has happened to the media. They jam themselves between the public and the events, to be a “filter,” which is an excuse to push what they find convenient and smother what they don’t. NBC lost no time showing the video, but seem coy in the revealing rest of it, which is less dramatic, but more informative.
naliaka on April 21, 2007 at 7:38 PM
Good stuff, Professor Blather.
I don’t know why the term “evil” has become so controversial. I’m also unsure why it is so common to jump to the conclusion that anyone that seems evil or does something horrific must be mentally ill (a broad term, indeed).
We don’t do that for all behaviors outside the norm, just the bad ones. When people do exceptionally heroic things, we never question their mental health.
MayBee on April 21, 2007 at 8:40 PM
Hey see-dubya,
My daughter attends Cornell University and they had a memorial service on Thursday … I think. Anyway, they rang the tower bells 33 times in honor of each victim. Makes one want to hurl.
wytammic on April 21, 2007 at 8:42 PM
Actually see-dubya,
Here is the link to the memorial service. President Skorton’s speech was not very long. Take a peek:
wytammic on April 21, 2007 at 8:44 PM
Sorry, forgot the link :)
Click here if you want
wytammic on April 21, 2007 at 8:47 PM
unamused,Mellen and RightWinged all have valid points, but I think in an effort to communicate them have focused at opposite ends of the spectrum of two extremes. One argument touts the use of drugs and therapy, the other argues for self reliance. While both have merit and validity neither is the where all and be all antithisis of the mentally ill or evil doers, both of which do exist. One by choice and one by the fact that they exist. Extreme behavior outside the norms or laws of society shouldn’t be excused as ‘mental illness’, sick thinking,a mistake in judgment,ego,immaturity,inexperience,stupidity,substance abuse,can all be a major factor here. For instance, did you know that continued exessive alcohol consumption can bring on full blown schizophrenia. How the process works is because alchohol is a super refined carbohydrate it depletes the body of the all important B-Vitamins (among others),which is neither manufactured or stored in the human body. Not to mention killing millions of brain cells. It has been shown under controlled conditions that mega doses of the B-Complex Vitamin especially B-2,B-6 and B-12 releive if not eliminate most of the symptoms of the self induced disease. How about ego or worse yet self pity these are self induced killers. To label someone with a mental disorder such as ADD or Bi-Polar seems to take away the persons self reliance and hope for recovery and replace it with drug dependance. In my day you just got a double dose of slap therapy and detention. By the way we even had to walk uphill to school,both ways! Seriously though in my home town in NJ we had an organization called Goodwill Industries. They had a factory where severely challanged (both mentally and physically) could find meaningful employment. My family wasn’t the richest and my mother bought many a refurbished furniture set there. These people were given an opportunity and took full advantage of it. I have no respect for anyone who repeatedly squanders away oppurtunities or abuses the very system desighed to help them. Thats a no no! On the domestic scene President Bush has implemented Faith based initiatives which is in the same tradition as the nonprofit GoodWill Industries. On the other hand the fact remains the mentally ill have always been with us and it was not until recently (last 100 yrs) that developments in Psychology have even been able to produce results or should I say relief of the terrible suffering of the afflicted. I must state here that I beleive this is the crux of our differences between the right and left. Psychology majors abounded in the sixties and seventies all vying for recognition. This is the main weponry formed against the right now. It’s a battle for your mind by a power MADD!group of eliteists from the left. Bombarding every form of media with the untruth,and calling it truth! Little by slowly they are encroaching on the sovereignty and sanctity of the individual. Now is the time for vigilance and courage ,in the FACE of opposition. We need sober leadership ASAP, THE PARTIES OVER !(at least till the election)
sonnyspats1 on April 21, 2007 at 8:49 PM
There are more than 32 victims in this tragedy. Those 32 people, their families, and the family of Mr. Cho. I, however, don’t consider Cho a victim — he was the perpetrator. If someone had thought of treating him for possible schizophrenia to begin with, this might not have happened.
When I was 21, I was diagnosed with a mild form of bipolar disorder. Before that, the initial diagnosis was depression. Before the former diagnosis, there was a point during a manic episode where, when I was taking antidepressants, I was experiencing some schizophrenic symptoms. It was mostly me hearing my own voice telling me to do stuff I would not normally do. But I told a doctor, found out what was wrong, and was treated. I’m not even on meds for anything now, and am doing fine without them.
I took the initiative to get myself better. Even with other people telling him he should get help, no one thought to recognize that what he had was a sickness. But I don’t blame the circumstances for what happened at VTech. I blame him.
ScoopPC11 on April 21, 2007 at 9:59 PM
Unamused: I also can’t carry a gun because of ‘my past’.
I have Aspergers Syndrome(very high-functional autism) that wasn’t diagnosed until my early 30’s.
I’m sick of people throwing ‘autism’ around like it’s some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card.
Yes I was bullied. Yes I was abused. Yes I was “different”.
Tha’s how I got my handle.
I still am-yet…amazingly…I’ve never gone on a killing spree because of it.
I was taught that the victim card is a cop-out and that the Lord gave me the intelligence to take responsibilty for my actions.
I’m autistic. Big deal.
I don’t need do-gooders making excuses for me.
Cho may have been different. He definately was an evil monster.
That’s how we should ‘remember’ him.
annoyinglittletwerp on April 21, 2007 at 10:57 PM
unamused, no hard feelings buddy, and I’m glad you see where we were coming from, and I understand what you’ve been saying too and I don’t deny the existence of mental illness, but I still think it’s too simple to add that in to the equation here, because we’ll always say that whenever someone does something “crazy”. I think this kid knew what he was doing. It was a “fantasy”, etc. He was a pissed off kid who’d had a shitty childhood, and instead of dealing with it the way millions of others do, he plotted for months and killed a few dozen people. There are tens of millions with “mental illnesses”, probably the vast majority of which don’t take any medicine and live relatively normal lives. He was very aware of what he was doing and it wasn’t because his “disease” made him delusional.
RightWinged on April 21, 2007 at 11:02 PM
Pile on guys. I’ll be here all week.
Tip your waitress. Try the veal.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 11:10 PM
Clarification I said “It was a “fantasy”, etc.”, that should have read “It WASN’T “fantasy”, etc.”
RightWinged on April 21, 2007 at 11:22 PM
>Schizophrenia is a BRAIN DISEASE
Maybe. The debate goes back and forth. Don’t let emotional attachment to the issue blind you to that.
Doghouse on April 21, 2007 at 11:35 PM
CHO purchased the ammo clips off of E-Bay.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4736957.html
zerodamage on April 22, 2007 at 12:40 AM
Pile on guys. I’ll be here all week.
Tip your waitress. Try the veal.
unamused on April 21, 2007 at 11:10 PM
LMAO I like veal!
sonnyspats1 on April 22, 2007 at 1:32 AM
Please. Personality disorders, depression, and sometimes bipolar disorder are often associated with creativity. Schizophrenia is not. Schizophrenics have difficulty functioning.
On another note, there seems to be a sentiment out there that, somehow, pondering whether a murderer had paranoid schizophrenia somehow amounts to an attempt to let him (or her–it happens) off the hook. I suppose in some quarters it is used that way. Personally, I don’t see the practical difference between paranoid schizophrenic delusion as a motive for murder than anything else.
Just look at some “sane” motives; “I wanted the insurance money,” or “I found out he was cheating on me.” Do those really explain the behavior, either? There are a lot of people who’d enjoy a large windfall in cash, and hundreds (if not thousands) of Americans learn each day that their significant other has cheated on them. And yet only a tiny minority murder. So the stated “motive” of a killer might indeed be his or her individual rationalization, but it doesn’t really explain the act at all, does it? If it did, all those non-killers who share the motive would behave similarly. But they don’t.
So clearly, all murderers have some special qualities to their psyches. That doesn’t make them any less dangerous, and it does nothing to lessen society’s obligation to defend its individuals from them. What difference does it make if the rationalization is a true statement (”She cheated on me!”) or a delusional one (”He’s spying on me for the CIA!”)? The threat is the same.
No, he purchased magazines. Magazines. It’s easy to remember, people. Magazines.
Blacklake on April 22, 2007 at 1:37 AM
Erase his name.
Burn his effects.
Mock his anonymous memory.
Or you get more and more and more.
Drawn by the diseased “romanticization” of “evil”.
This kind of murderous behavior is no more profound than a gas tank exploding.
To build it up to anything more “meaningful” encourages future cretins to emulate the “drama” of the “evil”.
Lunatics like this maniac are more in the nature of overgrown blood flukes. Or rotting molds.
There is no “charm” to these metaphors.
Time to reduce these violent imbeciles to contemptible pustules and humanoid blisters.
Not tomorrow’s mythologized “evil” icons.
Make them something no one would want to be.
Repulsive, insignificant, nauseating, trivial, vile.
____________________________________________________________
(”Clips” as Blacklake forgot to mention, are groups of bullets used a way of quickly loading a gun’s “magazine”.)
profitsbeard on April 22, 2007 at 1:55 AM
I find the clip/magazine distinction a bit pedantic. I use “clip” to refer to a detachable box magazine, and most people know what I’m talking about.
That doesn’t mean the media isn’t talking out of both sides of its @$$ about gun issues. Just that, well, I call them clips, I guess I’m wrong, and I’m okay with that.
see-dubya on April 22, 2007 at 2:30 AM
This is an amazing thread. Thanks to those who are giving up painful details of their own lives, in an effort to push the discussion further. It seems the problem is that on one side we have the undeniable fact that Cho was seriously mentally ill, and for a long time. Given that fact, it seems that something, somehow, should have been done to intercept the trajectory he was on, but it wasn’t. If he’s mentally ill, it may be beyond his ability to be the one who makes the critical move to change the trajectory–a someone or something outside of him needed to do that and didn’t. From that perspective this whole thing needn’t have happened, so that failure was tragic. On the other hand, what did happen on Monday sure looks a hell of a lot like evil. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. Since what happened was evil, then the perpetrator must have been evil, and therefore screw all the reasons, explanations, excuses, whatever–evil is evil, and should be called by its name. But are these positions are mutually exclusive?
Saying that somehow the mentally ill Cho was failed by those around him, appears to excuse what he did. But saying people around him failed to act doesn’t make what he did not evil. What he did was unquestionably evil. But the crux of the argument is was Cho himself evil? Can he be mentally ill (and I think that if you watch much of that video he made, and how little sense any of it makes, I can’t imagine that someone like that would not be considered legally insane) AND evil?
There’s something that’s always driven me crazy. When a child is molested by some sicko, he’s a victim. But we know that almost all perpretrators of child molestation were themselves victims of molestation when they were children. So when they are kids they are victims, and we feel for them, and they hell that they have to live in, until they become adults and start molesting, and now they are monsters, sickos, perverts, etc. For real, they are evil. But they were, for real, victims, and are “survivors” of molestation. So they have a dual identity–victim AND perpetrator. To say the perp was, is, a victim is true. To say he is evil is true. I think Cho falls into a similar category. The difference between the analogy and the analogue is that we see the molestor as fully responsible for his actions, but there’s a question as to how responsible Cho can be considered.
If we stipulate that Cho is evil by virtue of having done something monstrously evil, do those who want to discount the mental illness side of the question feel better about entertaining it as a factor in the situation? Conversely, can those who are concerned that minimizing Cho’s mental illness invites more of the same accept that by definition one who commits evil on this level is appropriately called, and considered evil?
I’m feel like I’m channeling George Will, and not in a good way–I just agree so strongly with both sides of this argument that I feel there must be a way for both positions to be true. Or maybe I’m just full of crap.
smellthecoffee on April 22, 2007 at 3:22 AM
3:22am? Holy crap, I need a life!
smellthecoffee on April 22, 2007 at 3:23 AM
What is Cho a victim of, Smell? Harsh language? Poor luck on the dating scene?
As for me, I think Cho was able to exhibit sufficient impulse control to lie on his ATF form and get the Glock. He planned his attack carefully and positively got off on the anticipation in his demo reel. He knew what he was doing was wrong and evil, and he did it anyway.
There are some people with psychological problems who go to my church. I don’t let my kids play with them unattended, but I can tell that despite their problems these guys are trying as best they are able to live good lives and do the right thing. Maybe they will fail someday, but I would stand up in court and say they struggled against the darkness.
PsyCho embraced it.
see-dubya on April 22, 2007 at 3:39 AM
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