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New VTech thread: The Telegraph fills in the timeline, maybe; Update: He deserved to die, says … Cho’s grandpa; Update: Cho’s family “so very sorry”

posted at 10:11 pm on April 19, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Not only do they not name their sources, they don’t even specifically claim to have sources for some of it. So take it with a grain of salt:

At 7.15am on Monday campus police at Virginia Tech received an emergency call from West Ambler Johnston Hall reporting that two people had been shot outside their bedrooms.

By then the killer, Cho Seung-hui, had made the two-minute walk to his own room in Harper Hall. Most of his five flatmates in suite 2121 were asleep in the three double rooms that open out on to a small communal area…

After killing Emily Hilscher and Ryan Clark in West Ambler, Cho spent the next 80 to 90 minutes putting the finishing touches to the multi-media package that would prove his shocking testament to his crimes and his morbid insanity.

Either in the communal area or in his own room, Cho quickly got to work on preparing the package he would send to NBC news. The network said he amended the 1,800-word, 23-page rambling invective written on one of his two computers at 7.24am.

He also loaded 28 video clips on to a DVD, and, it is believed, recorded two after the first murders in his bedroom or the suite’s communal area. Shot in close-up, he appears agitated and hurried. In one of the later clips he says: “This is it. This is where it ends. End of the road. What life it was. Some life.”

Shortly after 8.30am, Cho set off for the post office… At about 8.45 he arrived at Blacksburg’s post office, a 1930s red-brick building on Main Street, opposite a Starbucks and Big Al’s Grill Bar.

The post office on Main Street is the one to the east of campus; Geoff, our VTech correspondent, theorized that Cho had used the post office to the northwest so that he wouldn’t have to pass by Ambler Johnston hall on his way to Main Street. I guess you can’t expect a lunatic to look at things that reasonably. I wonder how close he came to the cops while he was heading over there.

Here’s yet another map for ease of reference. Harper Hall is #42 at the lower left; Ambler Johnson, scene of the first shooting, is directly to the right at #32; the Main Street post office, at the intersection with Roanoke Street, is off the map in the red circle; and Norris Hall is of course #132.

post.jpg

There’s an obvious problem with the Telegraph piece, isn’t there? They claim that Cho left the dorm room at 8:30, but as I’ve noted twice before now, Cho’s roommate, Joe Aust, says he looked in on him at 8 a.m. and found no one there. The Telegraph says it’s “not known” whether Aust did or didn’t see him that morning, so either they’re wrong or the Times is wrong. Given the specificity of the Times piece, I’ve got to believe it’s the former. Needless to say, though, if he was hanging around his dorm room after the first shooting, his sleeping roommates are unbelievably lucky to be alive.

Moving along, here’s another piece of news that’s been a point of contention ever since Bob Owens caught ABC News spreading misinformation about whether the since-lapsed assault-weapons ban prohibited high-capacity clips. WaPo reported yesterday that Cho hadn’t even used those kinds of clips, making ABC’s error that much more egregious. But now NBC says otherwise:

Virginia State Police say they’re nearly done with their on-scene investigation at Virginia Tech. But inside the classroom building, investigators say they found a surprising number of handgun magazines, or clips — 17. Some, officials say, were high-capacity magazines that hold 33 rounds. That means, investigators say, that Cho may have fired at least 200 times during his killing spree on Monday…

Investigators also say Cho practiced shooting at a firing range in Roanoke, about 40 miles from the campus, in mid-March.

I caught a segment on CNN tonight claiming that Cho rented a car from the Enterprise rental agency at the Roanoke airport sometime prior to March 30, when he was ticketed for speeding. Roanoke also happens to be where he bought his second gun, on March 13. Presumably he needed the car for all the gun-related commuting he was doing to that city. (The car was returned in April.) He also allegedly checked into the Mainstay Suites in Roanoke on or around March 29 for one night under his own name. They don’t know yet what he was doing there, but I can’t help thinking of those photos and video he took with the striped wallpaper as a backdrop. It didn’t look like a dorm room’s wall facing. I bet he shot those at the hotel.

The CNN information isn’t online yet, but this article in the Guardian mentions the cops’ interest in an unspecified hotel.

Moving along yet again, an eagle-eyed reader pointed out something to me that I missed in the WaPo article this morning: Cho was on the first floor of Norris Hall at some point.

There was more carnage in the hallway. Kevin Granata had heard the commotion in his third-floor office and ran downstairs. He was a military veteran, very protective of his students. He was gunned down trying to confront the shooter. His brother-in-law Michael Diersing, down on the first floor, heard the awful sounds and realized that the building was under attack. Diersing stepped out into the hallway with Greg Slota and noticed that the first-floor entry doors had been chained and padlocked. No way out. They shuddered to think that sometime earlier, as they were chatting or working or drinking coffee, the murderer must have walked right past their room on his way to chain the doors. Their room had a lock on it. Several students came rushing toward them, and they let them in and then locked up.

Presumably he spared them because he knew there weren’t many people down there and didn’t want to alert the classes going on upstairs to his presence with gunshots. Note, though, that this is at least the third creepy example of Cho risking apprehension simply to make sure his plan was excuted perfectly: the first was filming in the common room after the first murders with his roommates asleep a few feet away and the second was him walking past the cops near Ambler Johnston when, for all he knew, they had an APB out for an Asian male. If Diersing or Slota had noticed him padlocking the doors from the inside, one can only assume they would have confronted him and things might have played out differently.

The late buzz tonight has to do with the background check that was run on Cho when he went to buy the gun in Roanoke. As previously reported, he passed the state check because the magistrate chose to release him for outpatient treatment when he was sent to to mental hospital in 2005; had he been committed, he would have been in the system. But as I say, that’s merely. According to Newsweek, he should have failed the federal background check:

[T]he same 1968 federal gun law that bars convicted criminals from buying firearms (passed in the wake of the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy) also prohibits gun purchases by those who have a history of mental illness. Indeed, when Cho bought the guns, he had to answer the following question on Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Form 4473: “Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or … committed to a mental institution?” Cho answered “no.”

The magistrate ruled in 2005 that Cho presented “an imminent danger to self or others as a result of mental illness, or is so seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment.” He should have been in the FBI’s NICS system, but apparently states don’t always provide mental-health records as fully as they might or should.

I’m sure there’ll be updates here tomorrow. As for tonight, the kids at VTech are watching “Ferris Bueller’s Day Off.” I hope it helps.

Update: It keeps getting worse:

Ross Alameddine sat a few feet from Mr. Cho for months in a class examining contemporary horror films and literature. Both students were required to keep what were known as “fear journals,” where they chronicled both their reaction to the material covered in class and their own fears.

Mr. Alameddine, according to classmates, made an effort to speak to Mr. Cho on several occasions, trying to draw him out of his closed world and his refusal to interact with other students.

On Monday, Mr. Cho shot and killed Mr. Alameddine.

Apparently he was quite the diligent stalker, too, having once surprised/scared the shinola out of one of his victims by telling her which sports her siblings played in school.

Update: CBS News has identified the online dealer from whom Cho bought his .22 and obtained copies of his e-mail exchanges with the owner.

Update: Interesting family, the Chos:

US university campus killer Cho Seung-hui “deserved to die”, his grandfather was reported to have said in UK papers today.

Kim Hyang-Sik, 82, told the Mirror Cho was a “trouble-causer who has destroyed his mother’s life”.

Speaking from his South Korean home, Kim said: “Son of a bitch. It serves him right he died with his victims”.

He added: “It’s better not to have such a child in the family.”

Update: The NRA’s talking to Democrats about a gun-control bill? Yup. Smart move, too. By acquiescing in stricter reporting standards for mental illness on background checks, they end up on the right side of a hot-but-easy issue while denying the more ambitious gun-grabbers in Congress a pretext to do something more drastic.

Update: Just thinking out loud about the first shootings, but it seems to me there are two possibilities. One is that Cho was fixated on Emily Hilscher and targeted her specifically on Monday morning. That’s certainly plausible given his history of stalking, although in that case it’s odd that she doesn’t appear to have been mentioned in his rantings (or else NBC probably would have said so). The other possibility is that he was looking to kill someone, anyone, on Monday morning just to get a taste of what it felt like, and Hilscher ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time. That’s also plausible when you consider that her roommate, Heather Haugh, told the LA Times that “she and Hilscher typically spent Sunday nights with their boyfriends, but met at their dorm on Monday morning to head to their 9 a.m. chemistry class.” I.e., in all likelihood, Hilscher wasn’t asleep in bed in Ambler Johnston when Cho came calling; she was outside, on her way home from her boyfriend’s room. Imagine Cho standing around outside his own dorm at 7 a.m. or so, looking around for a victim but finding the pickings slim given the hour and the fact that it was Monday. And then, suddenly, here comes pretty Emily Hilscher passing by. You can picture the creepy bastard following her or even approaching her to ask whatever bizarre question he had in mind (“Are you a hedonist?” or what have you) while she kept walking and tried to ignore him while becoming increasingly alarmed. If he followed her into the dorm and upstairs, she must have been terrified by the time she got to the fourth floor. That would explain the “argument” she and Cho allegedly had — she was probably screaming for the freak to get away and leave her alone. Ryan Clark, hearing the commotion, would have come out of his room to intervene and that would have brought about the moment of truth.

Again, just thinking out loud. But it won’t surprise me at all to find that Hilscher was purely a target of opportunity.

Update: Bob Owens catches the media peddling more gun misinformation.

Update: The Cho family responds at last. Must be tough losing a son and having the family name turn to mud in an instant.


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MAGAZINES, AP. High-capacity MAGAZINES.

SEE: The recent RED EYE clip.

fusionaddict on April 19, 2007 at 10:28 PM

He should have been in the FBI’s NICS system, but apparently states don’t always provide mental-health records as fully as they might or should.

But of course Rush Limbaugh’s ‘Mr Happy’ pills, well that’s a different story.

But inside the classroom building, investigators say they found a surprising number of handgun magazines, or clips — 17. Some, officials say, were high-capacity magazines that hold 33 rounds. That means, investigators say, that Cho may have fired at least 200 times during his killing spree on Monday…

Well like that one doctor(I think) said. Most of the people he treated were shot 3 times. 3 bullets X 60 people = 180 shots, not to mention the misses. But if they found 17 magclips (or is that clipmags?) and 33 rounds each, ummm guys, that’s 561.

- The Cat

MirCat on April 19, 2007 at 10:28 PM

It really bugs me how Cho’s calling in of the bomb threat against Norris Hall that morning has been dropped from all these timelines. Presumeably the cops know exactly when that call came in, but no time has been released. I really don’t get why that isn’t that a bigger deal.

John on April 19, 2007 at 10:30 PM

Pistol w/ clip. Please note that this was designed not last century but the one before that.

Stephen M on April 19, 2007 at 10:32 PM

Sorry for the sloppy wording there.

But why isn’t it a bigger deal?

John on April 19, 2007 at 10:33 PM

I really don’t get why that isn’t that a bigger deal.

John on April 19, 2007 at 10:30 PM

It’s called CYA for not doing more.

- The Cat

MirCat on April 19, 2007 at 10:33 PM

MirCat,

That’s what I’m thinking too. But newspapers in the UK? What have they got to lose?

John on April 19, 2007 at 10:36 PM

and 33 rounds each, ummm guys, that’s 561.

Not all of them were extended mags. Anyway, I’ll wait for further reports on them. I wanna know for sure, because we’ve been told yes, no, yes on the bigger mags. Particularly given how aggro MSNBC has been on the gun control bandwagon.

Bad Candy on April 19, 2007 at 10:38 PM

People. PEOPLE. MAGAZINES. Not CLIPS. There is a DIFFERENCE.

fusionaddict on April 19, 2007 at 10:42 PM

He’s dead.

They’re dead.

Who cares what he did, time-line-wise or forensically.

It won’t stop anything, solve anything or cure anything.

Burn all of his effects. Erase his name from history.

What was his name again? Who the F*ck cares?

Scumnut zero.

profitsbeard on April 19, 2007 at 10:43 PM

Here’s the MSNBC timeline. No mention of the bomb threat.

Here’s the CNN timeline. Guess what’s not mentioned.

Here’s the NPR timeline. No mention.

I’m sure I could find more, but you see the pattern.

John on April 19, 2007 at 10:44 PM

SAY IT WITH ME…”MAG-A-ZINE…MAG-A-ZINE.” It’s not a clip.

BirdEye on April 19, 2007 at 10:58 PM

According to Newsweek, he should have failed the federal background check:

Allah,

State medical privacy laws prevent the giving of mental health records over to the federal government. I’m sure Virginia has similar laws preventing such a transfer.

P.S. Let’s just say I know this from personal experience and leave it at that.

bert169 on April 19, 2007 at 11:03 PM

I’m genuinely sick of this story, now. It’s time for us to move on (by us, not those directly involved, us meaning the media and its audience).

Patriot33 on April 19, 2007 at 11:06 PM

Yo Allah, crew & the rest of you knuckleheads, check this sh*t out. Saw this at Misha’s.

http://www.counterpunch.org/ross04182007.html

You won’t believe this bit of leftist hatred, read it. Your blood will boil.

Bad Candy on April 19, 2007 at 11:08 PM

I’m genuinely sick of this story, now. It’s time for us to move on (by us, not those directly involved, us meaning the media and its audience).

Amen!

bert169 on April 19, 2007 at 11:09 PM

Apparently he was quite the diligent stalker, too, having once surprised/scared the shinola out of one of his victims by telling her which sports her siblings played in school.

AP do you Tivo fox? If so you may want to find this video from last night. I think it was with Greta.

A high school classmate who is also a VT student was on Fox last night. He was also friends with one of the girls who was stalked. It seems Cho did this sort of thing all the time. The kid said Cho would anonymously IM them (their little group) with all sorts of personal tidbits and ask them to guess who he was. Somehow (I forget how) they were able to figure out it was Cho and they confronted him and it all stopped. They were shocked he knew this stuff. At one point he showed up at the girls dorm door and knocked. When she answered he stood there and wouldn’t speak. Really crazy stuff.

TheBigOldDog on April 19, 2007 at 11:16 PM

Patriot, I disagree, we need to know the facts of this case, and we need to show what it is shooters do, and make people wake up about this issue and hope they demand their schools establish plans on how to deal with this type of crisis. Obviously its getting tabloid-y, and the gungrabbing agenda pimping by the media is shameless, the fact that they politicized it that way is exploitative and unfair to everyone.

Bad Candy on April 19, 2007 at 11:18 PM

That’s what I’m thinking too. But newspapers in the UK? What have they got to lose?

John on April 19, 2007 at 10:36 PM

I’ll get back to you on that (runs away crying)

Not all of them were extended mags. Anyway, I’ll wait for further reports on them. I wanna know for sure, because we’ve been told yes, no, yes on the bigger mags. Particularly given how aggro MSNBC has been on the gun control bandwagon.

Bad Candy on April 19, 2007 at 10:38 PM

So, there were a few houses in the hotels. Have they made police reports available?

profitsbeard on April 19, 2007 at 10:43 PM

Those that don’t know their history are doomed to repeat it.

Case in point Patriot33 on April 19, 2007 at 11:06 PM and bert169 on April 19, 2007 at 11:09 PM. Those comments have never stopped comments :)

Oh, and it makes me wonder, how many more people with similar, shall we say, symptoms are floating around out there? If nothing else, the way news cycles go, it will call attention to these cases.

- The Cat

MirCat on April 19, 2007 at 11:21 PM

Well, I’ve answered my own question. The line about the bomb threat has disappeared from the LA Times story where it appeared (same story at the Trib).

I’ve written the readers rep to ask why no correction was issued.

John on April 19, 2007 at 11:29 PM

He’s dead.

They’re dead.

Who cares what he did, time-line-wise or forensically.

Right, dead is dead, whether you die in your sleep or at the mercy of a gun-wielding psycho. Big deal! Just please cover your mouth when you yawn.

I’m genuinely sick of this story, now. It’s time for us to move on (by us, not those directly involved, us meaning the media and its audience).

We don’t even know everything that happened yet or how, it’s been a whole 3 days, and you’re already calling a shark-jump. If you’re so tired of it, go read a book or something.

Jim Treacher on April 19, 2007 at 11:34 PM

The post office on Main Street is the one to the east of campus; Geoff, our VTech correspondent, theorized that Cho had used the post office to the northwest so that he wouldn’t have to pass by Ambler Johnston hall on his way to Main Street. I guess you can’t expect a lunatic to look at things that reasonably. I wonder how close he came to the cops while he was heading over there.

Why would he have to pass Ambler Johnston? Look at all the paths and routes he could use to get to the post office. There are so many ways at Virginia Tech that are of equal distance to get from Point A to Point B depending on one’s routine or inclination at a particular time. Also, there are roads not listed on that map because they are not on campus: For instance the one way Wall St. right across from 26 (barringer dorm) that he could well have used if he wanted to avoid a crowd of people.

It would be odd if he did not use the Main Street Post Office. That is the one most on campus students would use. You basically have to take a bus if you don’t have a car to the other one. The Main Street one is an easy walk from campus.

januarius on April 19, 2007 at 11:35 PM

“He should have been in the FBI’s NICS system,”

I’ve been saying this for several days now.

Section 103 of the Brady Act OVERRIDES any state privacy laws and requires state compliance.

Section 103 (e) (1) AUTHORITY TO OBTAIN OFFICIAL INFORMATION- Notwithstanding any other law, the Attorney General may secure directly from any department or agency of the United States such information on persons for whom receipt of a firearm would violate subsection (g) or (n) of section 922 of title 18, United States Code or State law, as is necessary to enable the system to operate in accordance with this section.

In case you didn’t know, 18 USC 922 (g) says:

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person –

(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

Newsweek is correct. The instant that Cho was adjudicated an an imminent danger to self or other due to his mental illness back in 2005, Cho was inelligible to purchase or possess a firearm. This is irrespective of whether or not he was ordered to receive inpatient or outpatient treatment. This information should have been forwarded to the NICS database. Obviously, it was not.

Obvious, somebody did not do their job.

georgej on April 19, 2007 at 11:41 PM

Maybe AP’s saying the video clips he sent to NBC were high capacity…

Blacklake on April 20, 2007 at 12:04 AM

And in terms of moving forward with a constructive purpose, it should be quickly noted that this “someone” who didn’t “do their job” probably doesn’t know that this is their job.

Coincidences don’t come that big. I would bet real money that the State of Virginia mental health system never reports that information.

Jaibones on April 20, 2007 at 12:05 AM

I suspected all along that the bomb threat on Monday was a confusion on the part of some reporter. My guess is they heard about the previous bomb threats and assumed it was referring to the same day as the shooting. An easy mistake to make in the confusion of the moment, but LAT is acting irresponsibly by deleting the error without issuing a correction.

And, by the way, those of you who do not want to talk about this anymore are welcome not to. But could you please do it somewhere else? Your not talking about it on this thread is interrupting those of us who still do want to.

JackOfClubs on April 20, 2007 at 12:09 AM

Investigators say they found a surprising number of handgun magazines, or clips — 17. Some, officials say, were high-capacity magazines that hold 33 rounds. That means, investigators say, that Cho may have fired at least 200 times during his killing spree on Monday.

Nitpick,

“A clip is not a magazine, a mag is not a clip,
And neither is a grip a stock, and “stock” does not mean grip.
I do not mean to nitpick, but improvement could be seen,
If we could ever bring ourselves to say exactly what we mean.” – Author Unknown

If NBC cant even get that right then I doubt they would be able to follow up and see if he had hi caps mags correctly.

None of the pictures he sent to NBC showed 33 round “clips”

http://www.hellinahandbasket.net/g18-thumb.jpg

The link above is a pic of a Glock G-18 machine pistol it has a 33 round “clip”. You need a federal class 3 license to even import a G-18 in the states, (I may be corrected on that). however the cap mag is possible.

The point is that no pictures showed him with a 33 round mag like NBC claims he had.

I think he had a mag of 15 to 17 rounds.

In the end does it really matter how many rounds his mags held?

F15Mech on April 20, 2007 at 12:14 AM

Investigators say they found a surprising number of handgun magazines, or clips — 17. Some, officials say, were high-capacity magazines that hold 33 rounds. That means, investigators say, that Cho may have fired at least 200 times during his killing spree on Monday.

Nitpick,

“A clip is not a magazine, a mag is not a clip,
And neither is a grip a stock, and “stock” does not mean grip.
I do not mean to nitpick, but improvement could be seen,
If we could ever bring ourselves to say exactly what we mean.” – Author Unknown

If NBC cant even get that right then I doubt they would be able to follow up and see if he had hi caps mags correctly.

None of the pictures he sent to NBC showed 33 round “clips”

http://www.hellinahandbasket.net/g18-thumb.jpg

The link above is a pic of a Glock G-18 machine pistol it has a 33 round “clip”. You need a federal class 3 license to even import a G-18 in the states, (I may be corrected on that). however the cap mag is possible.

The point is that no pictures showed him with a 33 round mag like NBC claims he had.

I think he had a mag of 15 to 17 rounds.

In the end does it really matter how many rounds his mags held?

F15Mech on April 20, 2007 at 12:14 AM

The post office on Main Street is the one to the east of campus; Geoff, our VTech correspondent, theorized that Cho had used the post office to the northwest so that he wouldn’t have to pass by Ambler Johnston hall on his way to Main Street. I guess you can’t expect a lunatic to look at things that reasonably. I wonder how close he came to the cops while he was heading over there.

I’m still not certain that it was the Main Street post office, I’m pretty sure I heard on Fox yesterday that a postal worker at the University City Blvd. I’ll take that grain of salt you offered with that Telegraph piece.

Needless to say, though, if he was hanging around his dorm room after the first shooting, his sleeping roommates are unbelievably lucky to be alive.

I’m sure he spent a few minutes there, but I don’t think he “hung around”.

Again, see what the set up is of these “suites”. He was in a 6 person 2 people X 3 bedrooms suite, with a common area and bathroom. It’s not a common area like a main lobby. Posing with guns and knives, etc. in the common are he risks screwing his whole, clearly WELL constructed plan if any one of the 5 roommates gets up to go to the bathroom or anything. You can click on a map of the building to see how the different Harper Hall suites were set up here:

http://www.studentprograms.vt.edu/vtour/harper.php

Does anyone know yet if Cho had a car? We know he’s in a car in one of his videos, but was that the rental car in Roanoke? I ask this in still thinking about the post offices. The University City Blvd. location is about a mile/mile and half away, and looks like something you’d drive to from campus. But as you note, he’d have had to go through an area that would be increasingly swarming with cops if he went to Main St.

Your comment about this not being something he’d consider because you can’t expect much from a lunatic. He may have been crazy, but he wasn’t “out of his mind”. He knew what he was doing and had been planning this out for a long time. I still don’t understand why the two shootings in the dorm, but getting the guns over a period of time, practicing shooting, the chains, the dozens of videos and photos, etc. etc. He obviously thought about this non-stop. I doubt he’d be stupid enough to go right through an area full of cops.

I also think he went back to the dorm after mailing the package (unless he had a car, which I think is likely), because he had to get his guns and ammo, cargo vest, hat, gloves, etc. I doubt he’s wandering around campus in all over that while cops are showing up to the scene of a murder, ya know? That’s why I think he probably parked and got his gear all together somewhere close to Norris Hall.

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:24 AM

The thing I can’t fully grasp is, why do the first murders when he had no connections to the 7:15am victims? Any advantage gained by the diversion is outweighed by the risk of apprehension. I know he was crazy but he also planned this out carefully. I can’t understand why he’d risk getting caught. Was he stalking the female victim? The Columbine killers didn’t knock off a 711 on the way to school. He had a reason other than diversion. What was it?

Buck Turgidson on April 20, 2007 at 12:27 AM

Update: It keeps getting worse:

Ross Alameddine sat a few feet from Mr. Cho for months in a class examining contemporary horror films and literature. Both students were required to keep what were known as “fear journals,” where they chronicled both their reaction to the material covered in class and their own fears.

Mr. Alameddine, according to classmates, made an effort to speak to Mr. Cho on several occasions, trying to draw him out of his closed world and his refusal to interact with other students.

On Monday, Mr. Cho shot and killed Mr. Alameddine.

This is Ross
http://www.myspace.com/kazinkilu

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:31 AM

In the end does it really matter how many rounds his mags held?

F15Mech on April 20, 2007 at 12:14 AM

For the same reason it matters that a auto fatality involved an SVU rather than a minivan.

- The Cat

P.S.

I still don’t understand why the two shootings in the dorm

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:24 AM

If you want to rob a bank, set a fire on the opposite side of town.

MirCat on April 20, 2007 at 12:32 AM

What’s the big deal about the magazines? It only takes a couple of seconds to change magazines so does it matter if he had 10 magazines with 30 shots or 30 magazines with 10 shots? I’m sure the families of the victims would feel much better knowing that the guns used to kill their loved ones had “only” 10 shots.

calirighty on April 20, 2007 at 12:33 AM

I don’t think this can be posted enough (just copying and pasting, sorry about post times, etc)

By the way guys, I found the myspace pages of many of the victims last night in the other thread. Just want to pass them along in one post to everyone so that you can put a face with a name. Seeing the victims as “real” people, their friends, what they said about themselves, see posts from their friends desperate to find out if they are okay, and later posts saying goodbye…. rather than just 1 in 32 names in the paper.

Anyway, set up an account if you don’t have one already so that you can view the other photos some people have (you can view other photos by clicking the main profile photo of anyone, if they have more, but you need an account)

Here is Emily J. Hilscher, shot first and for about 24 hours the media convinced everyone that she was his ex-girlfriend. SHE WASN’T. She also obviously didn’t use myspace much after setting up her page:
http://www.myspace.com/captivepixie

The RA that was shot with her was Ryan C. Clark. He had two pages, one that he apparently abandoned shortly after setting it up and another that is set to private, but is newer… Last login was 2 days ago
old:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=10336168
new:
http://www.myspace.com/vtones

Here’s Ross Abdallah Alameddine
http://www.myspace.com/kazinkilu

This was Brian Bluhm, looks like his sister has accessed the page
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=167170728

Here’s Dan O’Neil
http://www.myspace.com/residenthippy

Dan wrote and played music too. DaveS found his web site in another thread http://www.residenthippy.com/

Only the “music” link works on that page, but here’s what I posted last night

Most of his links aren’t working from his homepage, but I searched Yahoo and got his bio:

http://www.residenthippy.com/aboutme.htm

and more of his songs with a couple photos here
http://www.residenthippy.com/songs.htm

covering songs here
http://www.residenthippy.com/dan&matt.htm

RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 1:28 AM

Austin Cloyd:
http://www.myspace.com/rckmyworld

Matthew La Porte:
http://www.myspace.com/mattjlaporte

Mary Karen Read:
http://www.myspace.com/blueluver6

Maxine Turner
http://www.myspace.com/super_sneaky_ninja

Lauren McCain
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=14903990

I’m sure there are more out there, but those are the ones I was able to find.

It’s really sad to read the messages from their friends and family on a lot of them, begging them to call and let them know they are okay two days ago, then the sad RIP statements when these same people found out that their friend or family member was one of the victims.

RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 6:05 PM

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:33 AM

If you want to rob a bank, set a fire on the opposite side of town.

MirCat on April 20, 2007 at 12:32 AM

Yeah, but as others said, there’s the matter of being apprehended. He could have come up with other diversions that could have been just as effective, instead of setting up a diversion right in between his dorm and the post office (if that’s the one he used, which I’m not sure he did, as explained earlier)

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:35 AM

What’s the big deal about the magazines? It only takes a couple of seconds to change magazines so does it matter if he had 10 magazines with 30 shots or 30 magazines with 10 shots? I’m sure the families of the victims would feel much better knowing that the guns used to kill their loved ones had “only” 10 shots.

calirighty on April 20, 2007 at 12:33 AM

It’s all about the gun laws. Some are talking about “high capacity clips” because they want to say he wouldn’t have gotten them if not for the GOP letting the assault weapons ban expire, but it doesn’t seem he had or even could have had them. I’m not a gun aficionado so I’m not sure if I got that exactly right, but I think that’s the gist. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter, except to battle back the gun control crowd’s lies.

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:37 AM

The thing I can’t fully grasp is, why do the first murders when he had no connections to the 7:15am victims? Any advantage gained by the diversion is outweighed by the risk of apprehension. I know he was crazy but he also planned this out carefully. I can’t understand why he’d risk getting caught. Was he stalking the female victim? The Columbine killers didn’t knock off a 711 on the way to school. He had a reason other than diversion. What was it?

Buck Turgidson on April 20, 2007 at 12:27 AM

Yes he was stalking her (among others). Think about it, how long does it usually take to figure out who a murderer was? 24/48 hours minimum?

- The Cat

P.S. Hmmm, if her friends knew she was beign stalked . . . why wasn’t he takin in for questioning? He had to know how they reacted by the bomb threat(a dry run to test them). And knowing that, and how nothing was done, he felt safe.

MirCat on April 20, 2007 at 12:38 AM

Yeah, but as others said, there’s the matter of being apprehended. He could have come up with other diversions that could have been just as effective, instead of setting up a diversion right in between his dorm and the post office (if that’s the one he used, which I’m not sure he did, as explained earlier)

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:35 AM

I think he knew how the uni thought and acted. Having everything quietted down, not raising panic or whatever; acting in a manner to do damage control and not actively trying to find out who did what and/or prevent things from happening. I mean just look at how they acted when the main attack happened. Where was the intercom or anything?

MirCat on April 20, 2007 at 12:43 AM

P.S. You heard the presser. They tried to find out who did the first shootings by locking down that building and seeing if anyone came out. Now that’s really digging for clues/evidence/following leads.

MirCat on April 20, 2007 at 12:45 AM

If you want to rob a bank, set a fire on the opposite side of town.

MirCat on April 20, 2007 at 12:32 AM

I know, but a college campus is small enough police can cross the campus even while investigating a murder in no time. The dorm murder would only draw Blacksburg PD to campus whereas Vtech police are normally present. Did her friends know she was being stalked? Did the victim know? I hadn’t heard that.

Buck Turgidson on April 20, 2007 at 12:54 AM

If anyone needs a bit of entertainment on the matter and haven’t checked out what the conspiracy crowd is up to, read this:
http://cryptogon.com/?p=636

We know that Cho’s sister works for a State Dept. contractor in charge of Iraq aid money.

One unnamed source claims it is a specific company, which happens to be owned by a larger corporation who’s President and another Principal are part of….. you guessed it…. CFR! (The Council on Foreign relations, also known as one of the biggest wings of the Illuminati in Truther circles)

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:57 AM

Think about it, how long does it usually take to figure out who a murderer was? 24/48 hours minimum?

MirCat on April 20, 2007 at 12:38 AM

Not if there’s a camera system. I can’t believe a college dorm full of coeds gets less protection than beer in a mini mart.

Buck Turgidson on April 20, 2007 at 1:00 AM

Hey Allah, just want to thank you for the great work you’ve done this week chasing down the VT story in all its permutations. Hot Air (along with The Lounge at techsideline.com and a couple of facebook groups) has been my go-to source.

Throughout your extensive coverage you’ve managed to keep your posts free of any emotional editorial. I appreciate that.

ganeshpuri89 on April 20, 2007 at 1:01 AM

It’s all about the gun laws. Some are talking about “high capacity clips” because they want to say he wouldn’t have gotten them if not for the GOP letting the assault weapons ban expire.

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:37 AM

Speaking for me only…

You got it right. I live in Centreville, VA.

While I did not know any teachers/students currently at VT, I work with some of the alumni. The one thing I fear will happen is that some congresswomen will have a knee-jerk reaction and will set some laws in place that do not make sense. (Oops too late)

All because some deranged student thought too many of his class-mates drove BMWs of some other F’ed up stuff.

F15Mech on April 20, 2007 at 1:01 AM

As more details pour out I just get more and more horrified by this guy. The chaining of the doors, practice at a firing range, leaving those on the first floor alive in order to get the maximum amount of victims on the second floor, the digital manifesto and media… He put a lot of thought and time into this.

Concerning the state of Virginia not sending Cho’s mental health record to the Feds, it’s no surprise. How many of you work for or with state or federal agencies? Those of you who do understand why VA did not comply with the law. The stigma and stereotype given to bureaucracies is well earned. I’ve been a government contractor for federal and state agencies and I can tell you that incompetence at the level of management in most of them is normal. No doubt the people in charge of updating the NCIS system both on the side of the FBI and the various states do not have what they need to keep it accurate. The level of ignorance, arrogance, and shear stupidity involved in government information systems would make your blood boil. Scapegoating is the very fabric of these bureaucracies.

Please, stop looking to the government to protect you from crazy people. It will never happen to the degree you would expect. If we don’t look after each other on a neighborhood-by-neighborhood basis, our society will continue to suffer from ills like public shooting massacres and all manner of other tragedies. This was what the founding fathers of our country understood and it is what they intended. The role of the government is to protect your God-given rights, not foresee and intercept every possible failure of human nature.

unamused on April 20, 2007 at 1:02 AM

Allah,

What purpose does the quote from his “Grandpa” serve? You’ve done such a good job so far, why slip into gossip now?

unamused on April 20, 2007 at 1:07 AM

I don’t understand grandpa’s comment… I mean, isn’t he kinda insulting “mom” when he calls him an SOB?

dead-duck on April 20, 2007 at 1:12 AM

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 12:57 AM

BWWWAAAHAHAHAHAHA! These little rich kids have been smokin way too much dope!

sonnyspats1 on April 20, 2007 at 1:13 AM

Cho’s family – very interesting article on parents, aunts, etc.

His grandfather feared Cho, at eight, might be mute; the boy’s great aunt worried that he had mental problems. And his mother, Kim Hyang-im, spent most of her time in church praying for him to snap out of his unhealthy taciturnity.

“She was heartbroken. It was always her biggest worry when she called home,” said the mother’s aunt, Kim Yang-soon. “After they moved to America, she hoped his silences would ease as he grew older. But in fact, they got worse.”

The poor but hard-working family had a difficult beginning. Cho’s mother was forced into an arranged marriage with his father, Sung-tae, who was 10 years older and from a very different background. She was from a well-educated family of North Korean landowners, who had been forced to flee without possessions during the Korean war; he was from a poor family in the south, but had made enough money to marry by working in Saudi Arabia for 10 years on construction sites and oil fields.

As Hyang-im was 29 – a late age for a woman to find a husband in South Korea – her father told her she had to accept the proposal. “She didn’t want to marry, but she gave in,” said Yong-soon. “Her husband was not fit for her. But she always followed and obeyed him. She never fought him, though sometimes I wish she had done.” No one in the family recalls any violent behaviour from Cho or his parents that might have hinted at the carnage to come.

Entelechy on April 20, 2007 at 1:18 AM

BWWWAAAHAHAHAHAHA! These little rich kids have been smokin way too much dope!

sonnyspats1 on April 20, 2007 at 1:13 AM

Did you read the comments? They’re worse than the conspiracy theorist post.

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 1:22 AM

Concerning the state of Virginia not sending Cho’s mental health record to the Feds, it’s no surprise. How many of you work for or with state or federal agencies?

unamused on April 20, 2007 at 1:02 AM

VA’s background check should have caught the mental issue without sending the records to the Feds.

VA law….

A person who has been judged legally incompetent or mentally incapacitated may not purchase… (VA law sec 18.2-306.1:2)

A person who has been involuntarily committed to a mental health institution may not…. (VA law sec 18.2-306.1:3)

A person who is under a protective or restraining order, or an order against stalking. may neither purchase,possess…. (VA law sec 19.2-308.1:4

The VCIN should have had that data.

F15Mech on April 20, 2007 at 1:22 AM

I refuse to get drawn into blaming the Campus Police’s response to the first shooting. It’s easy in 20/20 hindsight to see that they should have done things differently but I honestly believe that nobody could have predicted that a mass murder attack would follow what appeared to be a isolated and most probably domestic related shooting across campus. The saying that when you’re up to your azz in alligators it’s easy to forget that you’re there to drain the swamp has a lot of truth to it. Cops deal with shootings all the time, the VT Campus Cops had handled shootings before and not a single one of them had led to a mass murder in a building across campus, it wasn’t in their experience and therefore never entered their minds that this might be the case.

I appears to me that Cho expected the Campus to be locked down after the shooting. The two hour wait may have been designed into his plan for that very fact. Within two hours the campus would have been taken off of lock down and he would have been free to commit his crimes.

MirCat, do you honestly believe that the only thing the Cops did was lock down the dorm and wait for someone to come out? That isn’t the case, and was never presented as such, but I guess you can believe whatever you want to. They did identify a “person of interest” and were interviewing him as the second wave of attacks began.

The great high capacity magazine debate will certainly rage on in some circles but honestly the difference between him having 33 round mags or 10 round mags is a small one. Reloading doesn’t take more than a second and nothing I’ve seen leads me to believe that time was a factor in these attacks.

It would surprise a lot of people to find that mental health records aren’t entered into the FBI NICS system. Public Mental Health files are protected and confidential. Strange that the left protects the right of those adjudicated to be a danger to themselves or others much more than the right of society to be safe from them.

Buzzy on April 20, 2007 at 1:36 AM

Allah, I see your thinking out loud and raise you this:

Was Cho wearing contacts during his rampage? This isn’t particularly important but he wore glasses as we know in non-manifesto photos, and I remember hearing a fellow student talk about him always wearing glasses at some point in the past couple days. But in all the manifesto photos he’s not. This get’s back to the question of how the hell was he such a good shot?

Also, as per your possible scenario for how the first shootings went down… Are there security cameras around and the video has simply just not (if it ever will be) released?

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 1:48 AM

What reason was there to believe the dorm murder was a domestic dispute? Female victim? I doubt the police never heard of stalkers. I don’t fault the police response. I do think the domestic angle was overplayed.

I was aware Cho had engaged in creepy stalking behavior of female students.
Has it been determined that he stalked Emily Hilscher specifically prior to 4/16? If she was his primary target, why no mention of it in his mad ramblings? If he went there to shoot anyone he could…why, when Norris was his plan?

Buck Turgidson on April 20, 2007 at 1:58 AM

Update: The NRA’s talking to Democrats about a gun-control bill? Yup. Smart move, too. By acquiescing in stricter reporting standards for mental illness on background checks, they end up on the right side of a hot-but-easy issue while denying the more ambitious gun-grabbers in Congress a pretext to do something more drastic.

Imagine what a difference it might have made over the last thirty-five years, had anti-abortion activists had such tactical finesse.

Kralizec on April 20, 2007 at 2:07 AM

Also, as per your possible scenario for how the first shootings went down… Are there security cameras around and the video has simply just not (if it ever will be) released?

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 1:48 AM

If there were security cameras on the dorm entrances, they should have had an APB for Cho by 8am. Rewind and play or, hard drive back to 7am. You don’t need video of the actual murder. They may suspect the killer was a resident who was already in the building, but you look for suspicious persons entering, then exiting. Playback should be viewed by persons with knowledge of the known residents looking for non-residents.

Buck Turgidson on April 20, 2007 at 2:14 AM

OK, I went back and read your update AP. Sorry if I was asking questions already posed. If he planned a Columbine style rampage for months, why risk getting arrested on some type of test run before he could carry it out? It was a huge risk from his perspective. What motivation would he have had to risk his revenge on society?

Buck Turgidson on April 20, 2007 at 2:31 AM

Is it okay to start blaming this guy now?

Jim Treacher on April 20, 2007 at 2:49 AM

Buzzy on April 20, 2007 at 1:36 AM

I’m just going by what they said in the press conference.

Is it okay to start blaming this guy now?

Jim Treacher on April 20, 2007 at 2:49 AM

I don’t think anyone’s not blaming him. It’s just, what to do when the criminally insane don’t police themselves.

- The Cat

MirCat on April 20, 2007 at 2:57 AM

Is it okay to start blaming this guy now?

Jim Treacher on April 20, 2007 at 2:49 AM

Not yet… I’m still busy blaming Marilyn Manson, video games, the Matrix, and the NRA.

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 3:33 AM

Cho’s family – very interesting article on parents, aunts, etc.

The poor but hard-working family had a difficult beginning. Cho’s mother was forced into an arranged marriage with his father, Sung-tae, who was 10 years older and from a very different background. She was from a well-educated family of North Korean landowners, who had been forced to flee without possessions during the Korean war; he was from a poor family in the south, but had made enough money to marry by working in Saudi Arabia for 10 years on construction sites and oil fields.

Entelechy on April 20, 2007 at 1:18 AM

Oh crap, you’ve unintentionally just thrown fuel on januarius’s fire…. Here we go again.

RightWinged on April 20, 2007 at 4:00 AM

Not to excuse the perpetrator or blame the victims, but I find it tragic that Cho could enter multiple rooms filled with dozens of people with impunity. The correct decision, if you’re holed up in a room with no chance of escape, and you know a psychopath is in the hallway about to enter, is that everyone should gather around the door and jump the guy the moment it opens. If there are more people than can fit around the door, the rest should be throwing their shoes or any other heavy object they can find at him. The guy looks to have been about 5′6″, and could not have withstood a bullrush by several larger people.

Two or three strong guys who knew what to do could have taken this creep out and possibly saved many lives.

When in doubt, lash out.

LagunaDave on April 20, 2007 at 4:01 AM

Well, maybe next time.

Jim Treacher on April 20, 2007 at 4:25 AM

You see something much different in Cho in the videos they think he made after the first killing. So much so that it was my first thought when I saw them. One thing that struck me is that his eyes are really red/bloodshot. The other thing is that you can tell he is feeling….different.

If he wasn’t stalking his first victim, perhaps he just wanted to get the feel of it before he went and did this big thing. Perhaps he wanted to take the easy shot as a way to force himself to fulfill his plan (note he didn’t mail anything before those first murders), kind of like taking the first step off the ledge.
Maybe he wanted to make the easy kill in case he got caught in Norris Hall- a far riskier plan- so he killed someone before he killed himself.
Maybe he wanted to police on campus so there’d be a faster response- perhaps he had dreams his blood would be spilled by the police rather than at his own hand. His CD production would have made a lot more sense if he had been killed by the cops.
Who knows?

MayBee on April 20, 2007 at 4:39 AM

Where did he get the money? Glocks and PPKs are not cheap. About 500.00 each. Magazines, ammo, hotels, rental cars. This guy dropped $2500.00 on this operation. That’s a heck of a lot of money for a college senior, and I doubt he did real well in the interview process at the local Wings and Suds. He complains about rich kids, yet if I’d had 2500 clams in college I would’ve been a rich kid. Just very odd to me.

HerrMorgenholz on April 20, 2007 at 6:28 AM

Not if there’s a camera system. I can’t believe a college dorm full of coeds gets less protection than beer in a mini mart.

Buck Turgidson on April 20, 2007 at 1:00 AM

The lack of video security was one of the most shocking things I heard too, Buck. I just took it for granted that at least the entrances and exits would be covered in every dorm.

My guess is they will be by Monday.

BacaDog on April 20, 2007 at 7:29 AM

Does anyone know what the most deadly mass shooting in modern history was?

It was in a country with one of the strictest gun control laws in the world: South Korea.

From Washington Times “Koreans shocked at killer’s ID”:

Although mass gun killings are rare in South Korea because of the difficulty of acquiring firearms, the country was the scene of what may be the deadliest shooting spree in modern history. In 1982, a drunk police officer, Woo Bum-gon, killed 57 persons before turning the gun on himself after an argument with his girlfriend.

Don’t forget this fact when gun control advocates start clamoring for more gun control.

januarius on April 20, 2007 at 7:29 AM

Instead of this continued rampant speculation about timelines and Magazines, why dont we channel our energy into trying to prevent the next of these sick events, since as you all know, he who shall remain nameless has upped the anty for the next Psy-Cho who decides to shoot up a school, mall etc..

Viper1 on April 20, 2007 at 7:41 AM

High capacity Magazines? thats suspect, none of the pics of this lunatic show any such thing. 15rd Mags are available everywhere for the Glock 19, not sure the Walther accepts them or that they are even made for it. Takes a very experienced shooter to handle a weapon the size of the 19 with a loaded magazine that is bigger than the weapon, I dont give this creep that much credit.

Viper1 on April 20, 2007 at 7:48 AM

I think she was a ‘target of opportunity’ too, Allah – I remember reading somewhere that supposedly Hilsher and Cho had argued that morning, and he left her – presumably to get his gun(s), and the next time she saw him he shot her and Ryan Clark. I wish I could remember where I read that.

SisterToldjah on April 20, 2007 at 8:00 AM

Viper1 is right, we can’t trust what the know-nothing media says about what kind of magazines he used.

There is one thing that I think should be said, and said loudly by everyone, from Bush on down: This guy was a pathetic loser, in the same vein as Lee Harvey Oswald and any number of psycho losers who decide to get attention by going out in a “blaze of glory.” The media, and us, are playing right into there hands. NBC is letting this guy win EVERY TIME it puts his picture or his name up. Every time someone says his name, its a victory for him. We should call for a national guideline (guideline only, not talking restricting the First Amendment here) that whenever such a shooting takes place the killer’s name, face, and personal details get BLACKED OUT. Zip. Nada. Nothing. The person’s name is never mentioned, he dies as even more a nonentity than he lived. The media wants to run stories, they can run stories of the victims and their lives. The heroes’ names should be trumpeted, not the villians’. Doing this will be a greater defeat for these vermin than anything else, an dI do beleive that it would do more than anything else to stop these atroctities from happeneing, once it sinks in that the media would hold to it.

That said, I have no doubt that the MSM would not give this suggestion a moment’s consideration, even if we could prove it would prevent more of this in the future. Anyone who thinks they really give a damn is a fool.

Lastly, I hope they rename Norris Hall for the professor who died protecting his students.

Lancer on April 20, 2007 at 8:09 AM

If he followed her into the dorm and upstairs, she must have been terrified by the time she got to the fourth floor

This is another question I have. I’ve had kids in dorms at two colleges–UC Merced’s dorms are apartment-like and while the doors are open to the outdoors, there’s no 4th floor. UC Berkeley’s dorms are mostly tall buildings, but you can’t get into one without either a key or an ID–every time I visited Freeborn Hall there was an RA sitting at a desk to check who you were and who you were visiting before s/he let you on the elevator. You can’t just walk into one without being stopped. How the heck did he get in? Did she let him in with her when she unlocked the building door to enter herself? Are the outside doors not locked?

Bob's Kid on April 20, 2007 at 8:23 AM

Ryan Clark was an English major, wasn’t her? Maybe he and Cho had a class together and he was the target. Wasn’t there something about Cho freaking a girl out by stating he knew what sports her siblings played in school, and the girl didn’t even know him? He seemed to research people he didn’t know.

januarius on April 20, 2007 at 8:48 AM

Is it okay to start blaming this guy now?

Jim Treacher on April 20, 2007 at 2:49 AM

Treacher, he’s dead, so naturally, we have to have someone else to blame. Someone must suffer! (I mean someone must suffer besides the victims and survivors and witnesses and families.)

sarahk on April 20, 2007 at 8:53 AM

georgej,

Newsweek is correct. The instant that Cho was adjudicated an an imminent danger to self or other due to his mental illness back in 2005, Cho was inelligible to purchase or possess a firearm. This is irrespective of whether or not he was ordered to receive inpatient or outpatient treatment. This information should have been forwarded to the NICS database. Obviously, it was not.

Obvious, somebody did not do their job.

And once again, we have a case where the answer isn’t new law, it’s properly enforcing the law that’s already on the books.

Why do we have such trouble doing that?

Pablo on April 20, 2007 at 8:56 AM

Instead of this continued rampant speculation about timelines and Magazines, why dont we channel our energy into trying to prevent the next of these sick events

No time, No time….. There’s a cndlelight vigil at 11:00, then a moment of silence at noon, and I have a counseling session for my latent grief at 3:30, and hey a guys gotta eat, ya know.

The bodies were still warm before the first candles were lit and songs sung. Grief counselors were on their way to the airport. The hugs and wails and laments and tearing of hair and the beating of breasts were almost done, for the day, when the shooter was identified.

When did we turn from a nation of righteous anger to a nation of solipsistic navel-gazers? Why is the State of Ohio having an official moment of silence at noon today? This is not Memorial Day or the anniversary of September 11; those are ceremonies and events with greater meaning. This is a psychotic atrocity, and we just have to have our self-indulgent feel-better moment (and it doesn’t hurt that our eight-year old pain over Columbine can be indulged this day, too). But no prayers. Oh no. That’s not for the public square. Keep that stuff where it belongs!

Sitting back as an observer, not caught up in the emotive emesis, I can see why our enemies believe they can defeat us.

HerrMorgenholz on April 20, 2007 at 8:59 AM

I know these are very side issues, but this morning I read that the killer was diagnosed as autistic, he clearly could not write, apparently he did not respond to teachers in high school or at Va-Tech, he did not talk to other students.

1) Why did his parents send him to a university, when he clearly had no tools to handle the experience? Did their lack of will in dealing with their son’s problems reflect a cultural issue, or just stupidity.

2) Are the admississions standards at Va Tech really that poor?

doufree on April 20, 2007 at 9:02 AM

I typed too fast and didn’t proofread:

Ryan Clark was an English major, wasn’t her?

As Hyang-im was 29 – a late age for a woman to find a husband in South Korea – her father told her she had to accept the proposal. “She didn’t want to marry, but she gave in,” said Yong-soon. “Her husband was not fit for her. But she always followed and obeyed him. She never fought him, though sometimes I wish she had done.” No one in the family recalls any violent behaviour from Cho or his parents that might have hinted at the carnage to come.
Entelechy on April 20, 2007 at 1:18 AM

Arranged marriages are very common. Even today, you have semiarranged marriages by agencies (a huge business) that arrange for couples who have similar educations, backgrounds, wealth, to meet. Marriage for love is not the norm in Korea. It is more likely you have marriage with someone you find suitable from the same background.

don’t understand grandpa’s comment… I mean, isn’t he kinda insulting “mom” when he calls him an SOB?

dead-duck on April 20, 2007 at 1:12 AM

He probably used the term “kaeseki” which is a common but extremely severe insult that means “son of a dog” or “child of a dog” or whatever. In English it would be translated “Son of a bitch” but the term is much more vulgar in Korean.

januarius on April 20, 2007 at 9:03 AM

2) Are the admississions standards at Va Tech really that poor?

doufree on April 20, 2007 at 9:02 AM

No the admissions standards are very high at Virginia Tech. You would need at least a 3.7 these days. At my time there, you would need at least a 3.4 to get in.

januarius on April 20, 2007 at 9:05 AM

Hey all, just in case any of you have ingested something poisonous and need to induce vomiting this morning, VT has posted the poem Nikki Giovanni read at commencement. An excerpt:

We do not understand this tragedy
We know we did nothing to deserve it

But neither does a child in Africa
Dying of AIDS

Neither do the Invisible Children
Walking the night away to avoid being captured by a rogue army

Neither does the baby elephant watching his community
Be devastated for ivory
Neither does the Mexican child looking
For fresh water

Neither does the Iraqi teenager dodging bombs

Neither does the Appalachian infant killed
By a boulder
Dislodged
Because the land was destabilized

No one deserves a tragedy

saint kansas on April 20, 2007 at 9:26 AM

Saint Kansas,

Saw that over at Sweetness & Light yesterday. Just nuts. Typical liberals, never miss an opportunity to promote your freaky agenda. Disgusting.

wytammic on April 20, 2007 at 9:35 AM

Sigh. Yes, my degrees in English just mean more and more, don’t they?

English 3984: Special Studies: Contemporary Horror
Stevens

It used to be that horror films came out at a prescribed time: October. But now it seems as if every week a new film invades the multiplex. We are consuming horror on an unprecedented scale. But the rules have changed. Until recent years, lead characters could be counted on to survive the invasion of zombies/ homicidal maniacs/ vampires. But this margin of safety no longer exists; horror has become a masochistic pleasure. How do these texts construct us as spectators? How does identity affect our readings of these works? What do they say about our current societal fears?
In order to answer these questions, we’ll watch films such as Saw and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and we’ll read The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpole, considered the first gothic horror novel; William Beckford’s Vathel, a forgotten gem that tells the Faustian myth from an Eastern perspective; some tales by Poe, Lovecraft, King, Ramsey Campbell, Clive Barker, Joyce Carol Oates, and Dean Koontz. We will also read Patricia Cornwell’s semi-nonfiction book on Jack the Ripper, Case Closed, and one book of criticism: Men, Women and Chainsaws by Carol Clover. And finally, we will read one graphic novel, From Hell by Alan Moore, one of the most popular and accomplished writers in the medium. There will be two papers, a midterm and a final as well as a fear journal in which students will write narratives about their personal fears and catalogue their interactions with the texts we encounter. WARNING: Not for the faint of heart.

Or the criminally insane.

saint kansas on April 20, 2007 at 9:38 AM

Saint Kansas-

Nikki Giovanni has very little talent but is a celebrity on campus. She became famous for her radical prose poems in the 70s. She has really toned down, but she often has a compulsive need to go back to being radical because that is why she is famous.

By the way, she is an open lesbian whose lover is Virginia Fowler, a crazy anti-male feminist at the English department, who is now one of the heads of the Department. Nikki Giovanni only has a B.A. not even a master’s, yet she feels she is the celebrity at Virginia Tech.

She got her job at Tech because Fowler had written numerous praises and analyses of her work before Giovanni came to campus. Then Tech paid an enormous sum for Giovanni to be a member of the faculty (with only her B.A.) Talk about a conflict of interest! Praising your lesbian lover, then getting Tech to hire her.

januarius on April 20, 2007 at 9:39 AM

Giovanni’s poem is typical in that it tries to see a pattern and give greater meaning to an event. It’s about meaning, and feelings, and compassion, and “learning the broader lessons”. And there is a broader lesson: If you see a psychotic loser with a gun, take him down NOW! Two to the chest, one to the head. That’s the difference between grown-ups who have and take real responsibilities and children who moan and pout about their feelings. Feelings about the infant crushed by a rock, the Iraqi kid, the baby-freaking elephant!? Solipsism without insight, blathering without purpose, and of course symbolism over substance.

HerrMorgenholz on April 20, 2007 at 9:53 AM

Wow….

Burn all of his effects. Erase his name from history.

What was his name again? Who the F*ck cares?

Scumnut zero.

profitsbeard on April 19, 2007 at 10:43 PM

That’s sad. You know, there are two schools of thought on this. Cut off his tirades from TV so no one knows him or about him. The other is to tell all.

I vote for tell all. Why? Because, honest to God, we need to understand WHY someone does these things.

Why? To help figure out how to stop it in the future. I’m not saying that we need to make laws to do it, but people who are in positions of authority, Professors for example, should be able to see problems before they go this far.

I was a teacher once in a college (for six years). I had more than one “nut case” in my school, who, for whatever reason DIDN’T snap, but might have. In fact, I was sure one would, I reported it to administration and no action was taken. I called the cops and was told unless he “actually did something, there was nothing they could do”….

Well… there. I guess that’s about when *I* started carrying a weapon. And have ever since. And probably always will.

But, for you to say “No one cares” and “who the F*ck cares” just shows that it’s really true what they say about liberals. They really don’t care. (I know you must be a liberal, because the remarks I’ve been seeing, and parrying on my own sites the last few days have been the same sort of crap and they invariably have been ‘liberals’ who ‘hate guns’.)

Rick Donaldson on April 20, 2007 at 9:54 AM

Thanks much januarius; I just checked out the website.

Honestly, after reading that poem I thought for sure it was something thrown together by a student, likely a graduating senior and English department darling. And I don’t say that lightly; I mean, I spent years studying Eliot and Arnold and Pound and Frost and Blake and lots of dead white men (and Dickinson, for the ladies). I do know a little about poetry. Real poetry.

Nikki Giovanni has very little talent but is a celebrity on campus.

Yeah, we had one of those too. She had loads of lesbian devotees but was sleeping with a male student at the time. She was our celebrity Pulitzer nominee, even if she did have to nominate herself.

saint kansas on April 20, 2007 at 9:57 AM

She got her job at Tech because Fowler had written numerous praises and analyses of her work before Giovanni came to campus. Then Tech paid an enormous sum for Giovanni to be a member of the faculty (with only her B.A.) Talk about a conflict of interest! Praising your lesbian lover, then getting Tech to hire her.

Wow. I’m sure the faculty members that worked hard for their Ph.D.s feel great about that.

Slublog on April 20, 2007 at 9:58 AM

And there is a broader lesson: If you see a psychotic loser with a gun, take him down NOW! Two to the chest, one to the head.

A-fred!ing-men, brother.

Now THAT’s poetry!

Sure I have an English degree, but I also have a Ruger SP-101 .357 magnum with a Golden Sabre hollow-point in the chamber, for those times when a poem just won’t do.

saint kansas on April 20, 2007 at 10:02 AM

Yeah, this is the kind of thing that has me pushing my son to attend the Naval Academy. It has nothing to do with my saving the cost of tuition, and spending it on something sensible, such as a beach house, fishing gear …

As to Nikki Giovanni, as much as I question some things at V-Tech right now, I bet every University in the nation has multiple stories like that one, involving plenty of gay and straight academics feathering their nests of higher learning.

doufree on April 20, 2007 at 10:07 AM

FYI – Heard the President of the Georgia Chapter of the Patriot Guard Riders on the Neal Boortz show this morning. The Patriot Guard Riders were invited by one of the members of Ryan Clark’s family at attend his funeral so that they could block Phelps and his so called “church” from being seen and heard.

Queasy on April 20, 2007 at 10:35 AM

“Both his parents knew he had mental problems but they were poor and they couldn’t send him to a special hospital in the United States.

“His mother and sister were asking his friends to help instead.

“His parents worked and did not have time to look after his condition and didn’t give him special treatment.

“They had no time or money to look after his special problem even though they knew he was autistic.”

Found the above at

Besides Cho being wrongly diagnosed as “autistic,” am I missing something? I didn’t know getting a court order and having your son committed to a mental facility would cost a lot of money. I think his tuition at Virginia Tech cost more, or sending the daughter to Princeton. Also, I’m not getting the “poor” angle. The townhome they live in, doesn’t appear to be in a “poor” neighborhood.

moonsbreath on April 20, 2007 at 11:01 AM

If Cho voluntarily went to a mental institution, NICS would nomally have no record of that. If he was involuntarily committed, NICS would [or should] have such a record, and he would not be legally able to purchase a firearm from an FFL for 5 years [I think this is 5 years from date of release from the institution, but I am not sure].

Henry Bowman on April 20, 2007 at 11:38 AM

Someone needs to start protesting against that Ryan guy. I wonder if we couldn’t get all the Freepers to start protesting at their “church”?

Rick Donaldson on April 20, 2007 at 11:56 AM

He’s dead.

They’re dead.

Who cares what he did, time-line-wise or forensically.

It won’t stop anything, solve anything or cure anything.

Burn all of his effects. Erase his name from history.

What was his name again? Who the F*ck cares?

Scumnut zero.

profitsbeard on April 19, 2007 at 10:43 PM

A Korean friend of mine said he was hoping that his name would be banned from clan rolls and his parent’s names marked for shame as having raised a murderer.

Tim Burton on April 20, 2007 at 12:30 PM

It occurs to me that as a loner, this guy quite likely never had a date, let alone a girlfriend. I’d bet money he was a virgin. And even if he wasn’t, it might be a box he wanted to check one more time before his death.

It seems possible that he went to the dorm early in the morning looking less for an opportunity to kill someone as possibly the opportunity to force himself on someone. It would explain why he followed a girl in, and why he had an interaction with her. His plan may have been to shoot up the crowded classrooms later in the day, but he headed to the dorm early in the morning to attempt to fulfuill another kind of fantasy first.

TexasDan on April 20, 2007 at 2:07 PM

I like how NBC published odd pages of the shitheads note. Whey did they skip to page 21 which suddenly has just this? What is your Point NBC?

Egfrow on April 20, 2007 at 3:14 PM

The NRA’s talking to Democrats about a gun-control bill? Yup. Smart move, too. By acquiescing in stricter reporting standards for mental illness on background checks, they end up on the right side of a hot-but-easy issue while denying the more ambitious gun-grabbers in Congress a pretext to do something more drastic.

But the NRA has always been behind the NICS. Here is a link to an NRA article in 2001:

President Clinton was determined not to allow NICS to succeed. The Department of Justice, Attorney General Reno and the Clinton administration dragged their feet to fuel the political fire in support of a waiting period. Success of NICS would have granted a victory to one of the former President`s bitter enemies, the National Rifle Association.

I know there are quotes from them promoting the instant check system as an alternative to waiting periods, but it is evidently not available online (or doesn’t come up in the search anyway).

Their biggest beef with the NICS was that it was being used as a back-door gun registration database by the Clinton/Reno justice department, but they’ve always been in favor of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and crazy people.

JackOfClubs on April 20, 2007 at 4:00 PM

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