New VTech thread: Roommate thinks videos were shot in dorm common area; Update: Cho watched “Old Boy” repeatedly; Update: WaPo reveals the Norris Hall shootings, minute by minute; Update: NBC posts parts of written manifesto
posted at 12:43 am on April 19, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Got a few loose ends and open questions to toss at you here, but first let’s dispense with this before word gets around and people start sending it to us. If you’re unfamiliar with NIN, be advised that it’s notoriously alarmist. There’s nothing on the wires right now about Cho having mentioned 9/11, and even if it turns out he did, what will it prove? Most of the ranting appears to be about Jesus and rich kids and revenge. He’s a disturbed nihilist with national traumas on the brain, per his Columbine reference, so don’t leap up and automatically scream “jihad!” if he happens to have free-associated himself into a WTC reference, too.
Now that we’ve addressed that, here’s an important timeline detail from NBC:
Karan Grewall, one of Cho’s roommates, said Wednesday night that Cho appeared to have shot the videos in their shared home.
It looks exactly like our common areas where we hang out every day,” Grewall told MSNBC-TV’s Joe Scarborough. “I can’t be sure, but the walls look exactly like our suite.”
The Times reported yesterday that another roommate, Joe Aust, returned to their room at 8 a.m. Monday morning — during the period between the two shootings — and looked in on Cho, but didn’t find him in his room. Which means the videos couldn’t have been shot on Monday or else Aust would have walked in on the filming. So when did Cho film them? He would have needed a long stretch of time where he could work uninterrupted, without fear of anyone coming home to find him waving guns around in front of a camera. One obvious possibility is spring break, but VT’s calendar says that started on March 2 and ended on March 11; Cho didn’t buy his second weapon until March 13, and he’s seen in the video brandishing two guns.
I have no answers, but I do want to note for the second time a tidbit from Tuesday’s Times that’s been bugging me ever since I read about it:
Earlier Tuesday, a single spent long-rifle shell was discovered on the sidewalk near the entrance to [Cho's family's] house [in Centreville, Virginia]. After the discovery, by news cameramen, police immediately moved reporters back and took the round away for investigation.
The link goes to the India Express, which preserves the original Times reporting that the shell was “long-rifle.” (The version of the story at the Times’s own website now omits those words, for whatever reason.) Why does it matter? Because Bob Owens tells me that “long-rifle” rounds can be fired in a .22 handgun like the one Cho had. It’s hard to believe that a spent shell that fits one of the murder weapons would be lying out in plain view near the Chos’ home, and yet wouldn’t be connected somehow to Cho himself. (Update: See update below.) Assuming that it is, it means he must have been home in Centreville — which is all the way across the state — sometime fairly recently and been messing around with ammo while he was there. Could he have shot the videos while he was there, too? Seems far-fetched, but he probably would have been able to work uninterrupted at home while his parents were out. Of course, this all depends on the shell having come from him; if it came from one of the dozens of cops who were swarming the area on Tuesday then forget it.
Enough speculation. I got an e-mail from a VT student tonight that answers a question I asked in another thread — namely, why Cho did his killing on the second floor of Norris Hall instead of the first. Reader Geoff writes:
I have a couple classes in Norris and can answer why Cho stayed on the 2nd floor. Norris is located on a slight hill and is shaped like an L. If you make an L in your left hand using your index finger and thumb, you get a general layout of Norris. Your index finger sits on top of the hill and runs parallel to the hill. Your thumb runs perpendicular to and down the hill. The two main entrances to Norris are at the tip of your index finger and the tip of your thumb. If Cho entered at the entrance that is at the tip of you index finger, he would be on the second floor without climbing any stairs. If he entered at the entrance that is at the tip of your thumb, he would be on the true first floor, and would have had to climb up the stairs to reach the 2nd floor. Seeing that my classmates he killed were not on the 3rd or 1st floor, I assume he entered at the entrance at the tip of your index finger.
Here’s a map. Norris is #132. He’s saying Cho entered at the entrance on the right, where 132 intersects with 130, and that left him on the second floor:
This photo of the entrance shows the hill Geoff describes. If Cho had chosen the other entrance (just out of frame on the left), we might have had a completely different set of victims. It’s actually worth asking why he didn’t choose the other entrance considering that his dorm was south and slightly west of Norris, and thus he would have passed it on his way to the second entrance. The answer, I guess, is that he didn’t go there from his dorm — indeed, if he had, he probably would have been in his room at 8 when Aust peeked in and there wouldn’t be a post office timestamp at 9:01 a.m. In all likelihood he came to Norris straight from the post office. Which, if I had to bet, I’d bet is located north and/or east of the building such that he arrived at that middle entrance first.
Here’s another great tip from a reader that I stupidly sat on when I got three hours ago, only to find it on the front page of the New York Times website an hour later. Responding to my theory in the last thread about Cho’s hammer being his “ax,” reader RLW writes:
If Cho meant to have an ax in his photo, wouldn’t he have gotten one instead of using a hammer to represent one? Was the hammer meant to be a hammer? He didn’t have a problem getting his guns or knives.
Oldboy is the second part of Park Chan-Wook’s “Vengeance trilogy.” A hammer is the weapon of choice in a single take fight in the middle of the film. Preceding that fight is the teeth pulling interrogation scene with the same hammer…
The movie is South Korean, but I would imagine that anyone likely to go on a spree killing would have it in his netflix queue, along with Battle Royale, which is Japanese, but is reputed to be barred from wide distribution in a post Columbine US. I know that back in the day, my teen angst bullsh*t friends in HS seemed to know about every murder/vampire/weird indie movie out there. The internet probably negates the need to have friends now.
Did it send him over the edge? I doubt it, but the iconography may have resonated with him, resulting in the hammer photo.
The protagonist had been imprisoned for 15 years and was seeking vengeance against an unknown tormentor and wreaking havoc with anyone that stood in his way.
Here’s the hammer scene from the movie.
That’s enough for now. I’ll leave you with two pieces: this ludicrous AP stpry on Cho’s sister, which offers no insights at all into the shooting except to imply that somehow, in some Michael Moore-ish way, it must be connected to Iraq, and a look at federal privacy laws governing mental illness by the Times. Money: “For the most part, universities cannot tell parents about their children’s problems without the student’s consent. They cannot release any information in a student’s medical record without consent. And they cannot put students on involuntary medical leave, just because they develop a serious mental illness.” Expect the law to change as a result of this case, and then to change back again in a few years when some overzealous college administrator has some poor, relatively stable kid involuntarily committed.
Update: I feel bad for having dumped on NIN when the fact is I’ve been reading their site for years. To be sure, they do sometimes get stuff right (and may well be right about Cho referencing 9/11), and even when they’re wrong they’re usually a fun read. There are enough people on the Web who don’t take terrorism seriously that I shouldn’t be knocking those on our side who occasionally take it too seriously, so ignore my earlier crankiness. If they’re right on this one, I’ll give them full credit.
Update: Speaking of jihad, Robert Spencer notes that Cho is already being praised on some Arabic-language Muslim forums and referred to as … Abu Musab al-Virgini.
Update: The backlash begins. According to Newsbusters, Meredith Vieira admitted this morning that the victims’ relatives who were scheduled to appear on the Today show have pulled out in protest of NBC’s decision to air Cho’s video. The New York Times quotes Brian Williams this way: “This was a sick business tonight, going on the air with this.”
Here’s the video of Lauer and Vieira this morning:
Update: Geoff from VTech has e-mailed again with further thoughts about why Cho would have chosen the second floor of Norris Hall and which direction he came from. Again, Norris is #132:
The main Blacksburg post office is actually located to the north and west of Norris, about a mile to a mile and a half away. However, if Cho used a vehicle to get to the post office, he most likely would have parked on Old Turner St., which you can see is right behind Norris. While this parking lot is reserved for faculty, I am sure getting a parking ticket was not on his mind. Since I have not heard anything about him owning a car [He may have. -- ed.], I will assume he walked/biked to the post office and to Norris. There is one minor entrance to Norris that I did not tell you about, and that is the entrance that is located directly below and to the left of the 132 on the map. Looking at the map, this would seem to be the easiest way to enter the building if you are coming to Norris from the west/northwest. However, the map does not show that there is extensive renovation going on to Burruss Hall, which is directly next to Norris. The entrance next to the 132, and the rest of the walkway between the two buildings, is usually blocked by construction workers, pickup trucks, and construction materials in the morning hours. While it is possible to enter Norris at this entrance, it is just easier to keep walking and enter through the tunnel. I also think that you should know that the first floor of Norris is more like a basement then a 1st floor of a building. Since Norris is built on a hill, there are not many windows or classrooms down there. The one big classroom that is on the first floor is being renovated this semester, and therefore was empty. This is me speculating, but I assume he didn’t kill anyone of the first floor because no one was down there. The second and third floors are where most of the classrooms are. Again I am going to speculate, but seeing how it now seems that this was not some sort of a hunt for a lost lover, I think Cho chose Norris for a reason. It is one of the only campus buildings that I can think of that has less than 4 exits, and most of the classrooms are not on the first floor. These two facts make it a hard place to get out of in a hurry, especially if you chain shut the doors.
I’m not so sure it was that random. The note found near Cho’s body apparently mentioned the engineering department specifically, which I believe is located in Norris Hall.
Geoff sends a second e-mail:
As I said before, the main Blacksburg post office is to the northwest of campus. However, there is a small post office to the east of campus and several mini-post offices inside of several dorms that are closer than the post office to the northwest. I don’t think he used these post offices though because if he went east, he would be walking right into most of the on-coming police officers. Both the Tech and Blacksburg Police Departments are located to the east of West AJ, where the first murders took place, and Harper, Cho’s dorm.
Patterico sent me Mapquest images of the two post offices last night. Here’s the one to the east which he probably didn’t use. And here’s the one to the northwest, which Geoff describes and which Cho probably did use. Norris Hall is the “start” point in both:
Update: Damn, I really should have jumped on that “Old Boy” tip when RLW sent it to me: Sky News now quotes detectives as saying Cho wathched the movie “repeatedly” in the last few days before the massacre. Presumably a roommate told them that, otherwise I don’t know how they’d know.
Update: This morning’s piece by David Maraniss in the Post is so detailed I felt obliged to flag it in the headline here. It’s the first lengthy treatment I’ve read of what happened in Norris Hall, moment by moment. It begins with another clue about when Cho shot the videos, too: according to Maraniss, Cho’s roommate went back to sleep after encountering him in the bathroom that morning at 5 a.m. So he would have been there during any filming that was happening in the common room. Could he have slept through that? Why did Cho spare his roommates, anyway?
Here’s just a taste from the piece — the final moments of Liviu Librescu, whose classroom was the last Cho reached such that everyone inside already knew what was happening just outside the door:
The teacher and his dozen students had heard too much, though they had not seen anything yet. They had heard a girl’s piercing scream in the hallway. They had heard the pops and more pops. By the time the gunman reached the room, many of the students were on the window ledge. There was grass below, not concrete, and even some shrubs. The old professor was at the door, which would not lock, pushing against it, when the gunman pushed from the other side. Some of the students jumped, others prepared to jump until Librescu could hold the door no longer and the gunman forced his way inside.
Matt Webster, a 23-year-old engineering student from Smithfield, Va., was one of four students inside when the gunman appeared. “He was decked out like he was going to war,” Webster recalled. “Black vest, extra ammunition clips, everything.” Again, his look was blank, just a stare, no expression, as he started shooting. The first shot hit Librescu in the head, killing him. Webster ducked to the floor and tucked himself into a ball. He shut his eyes and listened as the gunman walked to the back of the classroom. Two other students were huddled by the wall. He shot a girl, and she cried out. Now the shooter was three feet away, pointing his gun right at Webster.
“I felt something hit my head, but I was still conscious,” Webster recalled. The bullet had grazed his hairline, then ricocheted through his upper right arm. He played dead. “I lay there and let him think he had done his job. I wasn’t moving at all, hoping he wouldn’t come back.” The gunman left the room as suddenly as he had come in.
Update: Michael Welner, a forensic psychiatrist who consults for ABC (and who claimed yesterday that Cho was schizophrenic), calls NBC’s decision to air the videos “a social catastrophe.”
Update: According to U.S. News & World Report, Cho’s name would have been added to the NICS firearms background check database if the judge had ordered him committed when he was sent to a mental hospital in 2005. The fact that he ordered outpatient treatment instead kept Cho out of the system and made the later handgun purchases legal.
Update: Reader Pablo passes along this link with details about the spent shell found outside the Cho family home. According to McClatchy, it was an unspent round designed for a rifle and was found in a parking lot near the house. (See the 11:45 a.m. Tuesday item.) So it’s probably not connected to this.
Update: NBC has posted a few pages of Cho’s (redacted) manifesto online and, as promised, credit must be given to NIN: he does indeed mention 9/11 on page 2, although he casts himself as a victim, not as a jihadi perpetrator.
Update: Mary K asks a good question in the comments:
[H]asn’t the roommate said Cho had started getting up really early every morning? If he was up at five, it seems to me he could have easily spent an hour or two filming in the common area of a suite without his sleeping roomies knowing.
If he did shoot the film on Monday morning, I bet that’s when he did it. Remember, though: NBC said the video clips were split into 27 separate Quicktime files and that the written document referred to each separate file at various points. That’s a lot of coordination and probably not something that could have been done between 7:15 and 8 a.m. (after the first shooting and before Cho’s roommate looked in on him) or 8 a.m. and 9:01 (after Cho’s roommate looked in on him but before he sent the package out). It seems strange to me that he’d be willing to film between 5 and 7, though, knowing that his roommates were in their bedrooms and liable to overhear him — and potentially intervene and stop him — before he could go out and start shooting. Plus, he’d already met one of them in the bathroom at 5 a.m. so he knew at least one of them was awake.
Update: Re: the manifesto, a reader e-mails to note that the backdrop in some of the photos (page 21) looks like striped wallpaper, not the painted bricks seen in most of the photos and video. Wallpaper was unusual for dorm rooms when I was in college, so I’m thinking maybe those photos were taken at his parents’ house.
Update: Via Slublog, the Chronicle of Higher Education has surprisingly lengthy (and touching) profiles of each of the victims.
Update: Yet another e-mail from Geoff at VTech answering my question about Cho’s supposed vendetta against the engineering department:
[W]hile Norris is an engineering building, I would say that at least 30-40% of the classes that take place in Norris are not engineering classes. For example, I am a business major and have taken several accounting and finance classes in Norris, and two of the classes that were hit hard by this murderer were a French and a German class. There are other buildings on campus where the classes that take place in them are closer to 100% engineering. That being said, and I should have told you this earlier, the Dean of the Engineering College office is located on the third floor of Norris, along with the offices of other high ranking engineering officials (link). This raises another question though, why did he not go up to the third floor and shoot these engineering officials if he wrote something about the engineering department in a note?
He might not have known that the engineering department’s offices were on the third floor, and had simply assumed they were on the second (or assumed that the engineering professors were teaching class on the second floor at the time).
Update: I’m skeptical towards this theory that Cho was aping “The Punisher” comic books in some of his photos, but he was after all a nerd and I got burned last night by not running the “Old Boy” thing when we first got the tip.
Update: Obviously, no one will ever know at precisely what point Cho went from weird to psychotic. But for what it’s worth, his uncle says he was conspicuously “quiet” even as a kid:
Cho “didn’t talk much when he was young. He was very quiet, but he didn’t display any peculiarities to suggest he may have problems,” said the uncle, who requested to be identified only by his last name, Kim. “We were concerned about him being too quiet and encouraged him to talk more.”…
Cho’s maternal grandfather also told local newspapers that relatives were concerned about Cho not talking much as a child.
Cho “troubled his parents a lot when he was young because he couldn’t speak well, but was well-behaved,” the grandfather, who was identified by only his last name Kim, told the Dong-a Ilbo daily.
In a separate interview with the Hankyoreh newspaper, Kim, 81, said the relatives were worried that Cho might even be mute.
Update: Another non-surprise. Expect the media to seize on the boldfaced part any minute now:
Long before he snapped, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was picked on, pushed around and laughed at over his shyness and the strange way he talked when he was a schoolboy in the Washington suburbs, former classmates say…
Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho’s turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded “like he had something in his mouth,” Davids said.
“As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, ‘Go back to China,”‘ Davids said.
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I don’t see how they change it in the first place, unless the student is under 18 (or whatever the age of consent is in that state).
Rick on April 19, 2007 at 12:57 AM
Allah - you’ve been working overtime on this story. Thanks for the latest update! I get more information here than I get from tv news - thanks to you.
I’m curious why Joe Aust looked in on Cho. Did he suspect something? I can’t get my head around being this guy’s roommate and not suspecting or knowing he was up to something. Particularly in hindsight of all this.
thedecider on April 19, 2007 at 12:59 AM
AP
Good advice not everyone is inclined to heed. Not suggesting this is the case for the VT incident but in our town there was a woman who shot her husband dead in his sleep for no apparent reason. She was sentenced to life and a few months later died of a brain tumor.
This kid had some serious issues and sadly it will happen again at some point. In countries without guns, the “nuts” use knives or swords, here they use guns.
Bradky on April 19, 2007 at 1:03 AM
This quote from Cho’s sister is interesting:
As where he was so introverted, she is obviously an extrovert. How could two such different people come from the same family. This really blows away an earlier assumption I had about Cho’s parents.
thedecider on April 19, 2007 at 1:04 AM
Apparently you haven’t been introduced to Schlussel and januarius.
Another angle
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070418/480/dc4e1cf5bdb5494bad9589ddf945c58c
I just read that after being linked from an update by MM, and quickly found the conspiracy nuts running wild with it, further than I would have even thought. You’re up Alex Jones:
http://cryptogon.com/?p=636
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 1:04 AM
Yeah we have to watch the slippery slope of what is or isnt mental illness.
Wasnt there some study here on Hot Air a few months back about some liberal Psycologist arguing that Conservatism had some kind of mental deficency ?
William Amos on April 19, 2007 at 1:07 AM
No, he just stopped by his room (he lived there too). As for the common area, so everyone is clear it’s not like the lobby… it’s a common area for 6 kids, I heard him talking about his “suite’s common area” on TV earlier. So it’s not like he’s by the lobby where hundreds of kids come and go. As for the wall “looking” like that of the common area, it also looks like countless other areas.
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 1:09 AM
Yeah we have to watch the slippery slope of what is or isnt mental illness.
William Amos on April 19, 2007 at 1:07 AM
That slopes already been slopped
- The Cat
MirCat on April 19, 2007 at 1:10 AM
William Amos: “Wasnt there some study here on Hot Air a few months back about some liberal Psycologist arguing that Conservatism had some kind of mental deficency ?”
Which means it’s only a matter of time before the loony lefties blame this on Bush.
Tantor on April 19, 2007 at 1:10 AM
Didn’t he lock both sets of doors? If so, maybe he did enter downstairs first, locked those doors, and then went upstairs to lock those. I thought the police were only able to evacuate people through some other door where there was construction.
Rick on April 19, 2007 at 1:16 AM
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/DN-teenshot_18met.ART.State.Edition1.4385293.html
Sometimes people wake up. Too bad it took Cho to wake em up.
Limerick on April 19, 2007 at 1:20 AM
Okay. But, could you share a room with someone like this and not know they had the crazy on? I think there would be some clue that the person you shared a room with - a person who was about to commit an atrocity as horrible as this - would leave you asking WTF about something.
thedecider on April 19, 2007 at 1:21 AM
AP, don’t try to make too much out of that “long-rifle” thing. I’m sure if you check with Bob he’ll agree with me that the .22 Long Rifle is the most common cartridge in America today, as it has been for at least 50 years and probably a lot longer. The little Remington single-shot my dad bought me in ‘62 would fire .22 Shorts, Longs, or Long Rifles. At that time Shorts were $0.52 for a box of 50 and I went through thousands of them learning to put a bullet where I wanted to. When I was going hunting I’d spring for a box of Long Rifles for more stopping power. (Started doing that after I put 3 Shorts into a running Ground Hog and he kept right on going.) When I was old enough to buy something more substantial I bought a Ruger 10/22 carbine and a Ruger Standard semiautomatic pistol for varmint hunting and just shooting for the hell of it like teenage boys in these parts do; the only thing they’d either one chamber was .22 Long Rifles. The first time I ever fired anything with a bigger cartridge than a .22 Long Rifle it was a 38 Caliber Smith & Wesson Combat Masterpiece owned by the U. S. Air Force. Learned to shoot an M-16 about the same time. Finally bought myself a Ruger .357 Security Six for self-defense use about the time I got out of the Air Force. Had a .243 Winchester varmint rifle for a while along he way but hunting just wasn’t fun any more after Nam and I sold it. Rambling aside, my point is that finding a spent .22 Long Rifle cartridge on the ground in any rural area in America proves about as much as finding a penny someone dropped and didn’t bother to pick up. A 9mm casing might be worth comparing to the ones found at the murder scene but not the .22.
bdfaith on April 19, 2007 at 1:24 AM
It’s also interesting about the bullet found at his parents house. I’d like to hear more about that. One thing about it that (sort of) answers another question I had, is that he likely had some kind of regular contact with them. Surely they were paying for his expenses at VT and had some knowledge that he was slipping off the deep end. Why didn’t they do more to intervene? His sister was obviously enjoying a lot of success.
thedecider on April 19, 2007 at 1:25 AM
But his parents didn’t live in a rural area. From what I understand, it was a well-established neighborhood. I mean, I get your point about rural areas (I live in Oklahoma - I know what they’re like) but I believe from news reports this wasn’t like that.
thedecider on April 19, 2007 at 1:28 AM
The roomies have to be kicking themselves. If I were any of them, I’d be requesting new digs about now.
Connie on April 19, 2007 at 1:31 AM
Hey AP, there are two post offices in Blacksburg:
909 University City Blvd
Blacksburg, VA 24060-9998
and
118 N Main ST
Blacksburg, VA 24060-9997
If Google Earth is zeroing in roughly on the correct locations for those addresses, i’d say that the Main St. location is closer, probably a half mile, while the University City Blvd. is about a mile (give or take on both, but that’s somewhere between as the crow flies and actual road distance)
I’m pretty sure I heard it confirmed earlier that he sent it out at the University City Blvd. location, but maybe I just heard that street mentioned in relation to something else. I’m only 80% sure about that.
The University City Blvd. location is almost perfectly northwest of Norris. Main St. location almost perfectly east. But it’s more important to remember that it’s not like he’s walking across a field. There are numerous blocks of buildings between Norris and each post office, so he’d be forced to follow roads.
First question: Was he walking or driving.
Second question: If he was driving, it matters where he parked in determining where he entered the building, no?
Point Three: As I mentioned, it’s not a straight shot from either post office, so roads and paths would force him certain directions, so I’m not really sure about what any of that really means.
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 1:32 AM
This is scary sh!t - not to mention it’s in my neck of the woods. Glad the authorities opted to put this guy back in custody - especially after this:
Rick on April 19, 2007 at 1:32 AM
Walked up to his door, knocked, kid opened the door and blam. Bail set at 100k.
Limerick on April 19, 2007 at 1:33 AM
And the guy walking his dog? I guess Ji was bored that day.
Rick on April 19, 2007 at 1:37 AM
Could be anyones casings, .22LRs are pretty common but I wouldn’t doubt its his. They’re small, dirt cheap rounds, and are often used in rural areas to shoot pest animals.
Did anyone listen to those videos and think, what a pathetic whiny emo b*tch…why didn’t you just kill yourself, its clearly what you wanted, why drag innocent people into it?
Bad Candy on April 19, 2007 at 1:37 AM
Oh no doubt. In fact, don’t we already know that they were part of what got him in trouble for the stalking and forced to see mental health professionals? There’s so much going on, I’m losing track, but I’m pretty sure they had something to do with that.
That said, he obviously totally hid his plans, I mean these kids aren’t stupid. I do have to say I’m surprised they’d tolerate him as their roommate though. But then again, maybe they liked that he didn’t bother them? Also, maybe some of them spent a lot of time off campus at girlfriend’s houses or parents houses, or even friends houses… not uncommon.
Anyway, I’m not in disagreement with you, earlier I was just specifically responding about the roommate “checking in”. I’m pretty sure he was just stopping by his own place, unrelated to Cho, but is able to note that he wasn’t there.
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 1:37 AM
No, we all thought…
http://gotwavs.com/Movies/Napoleon_Dynamite.html
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 1:39 AM
By the way, in case anyone missed it, Malkin links to this Jawa post on the “worst mass murder” LIE, and why the media is running wild with it (beyond the usual sensationalism of course)
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/187474.php
A must read.
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 1:41 AM
This is frightening stuff, Rick. Living in the lower mid-west myself, I can only say that it would only happen here that people were aware enough (and law enforcement was savvy enough) that this guy ended up in custody again. However, I’m bothered that he was released to “house arrest”. Those ankle bracelets do little to arouse suspicion of over-worked parole officers.
thedecider on April 19, 2007 at 1:45 AM
I’m surprised too, but you are probably right in that they may have liked that he kept to himself. I have some relatives in college right now, and when I ask about their roommates, they just respond that they really don’t know them, and enjoy that fact (they all keep to themselves).
Rick on April 19, 2007 at 1:46 AM
Yeah, I can see that.
Reminds me of some of Tetsuo’s tantrums in the Akira movie, If any of you’ve watched Akira.
Bad Candy on April 19, 2007 at 1:50 AM
Thanks Randy! Lest we forget (and, how could we?) there are other mass-murders in our very recent history which overshadow, even this one.
If any of you haven’t checked out that link, you should. It’s a real eye-opener.
thedecider on April 19, 2007 at 1:52 AM
The other thing being that .22lr casings are pretty darn small. Unless you were on a clean dirt path devoid of any objects you’d prolly miss it.
pic for reference.
http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn1358arz2.jpg
from right: .22lr, 9mm, .357sig, .40s&w, .45acp, 5.56mm, 7.62mm (last two being rifle rounds)
Another that just has more .40 rounds in it.
http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn1377azv5.jpg
When you say “a long rifle casing”, I imagine a rifle casing such as the last two in the pic or maybe even something bigger.
just fyi
Kai on April 19, 2007 at 1:58 AM
In case no one followed my link regarding Cho’s sister and what the conspiracy nuts are doing with it, I’ll give yo uthe gist. Let me note also that the afternoon of the shootings, Alex Jones’ minions were posting videos on YouTube talking about how this was part of the whole Illuminati conspiracy. I mean, it’s one thing to be stupid, and hanging on random twisted “evidence”, but these people are so blinded that nothing isn’t part of the conspiracy, and if it is, it’s just a deeper level, intended to distract.
Anyway, on with the insanity….
http://cryptogon.com/?p=636
By the way, I do have to agree with the crazy commenters about one thing - the kid’s accuracy. I still don’t get how the f**k he killed 32 people without anyone stopping him. He didn’t have a grenade or machine gun, he’s using little hand guns. Sounds like he’s a hell of a shot for some loser who sits around staring at the while and typing weird stories on his laptop.
Now, here’s the gist of what the conspiracy nuts are saying (remember AP’s link above, that Cho’s sister works for a State Dept. contractor). (someone press play on the Loose Change spooky music now)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=3048108
The nut from the blog I linked to wound up at McNeil Technologies’ Intelligence and Language Center page:
http://www.mcneiltech.com/go/services/language_services/overview
And focuses on this bullet
They give you some other “spookiness”, and end up at McNeil’s about page:
http://www.mcneiltech.com/go/about_us
This is where they finish their little match of five against one all over their keyboards:
http://www.veritascapital.com/team/index.html
and
If RedEye weren’t on right now I’d be pulling out my Manchurian Candidate DVD.
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 2:01 AM
Damn! Multiple link post hung up in moderation again
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 2:02 AM
RightWinged, Bill Schulz just said Cho sounded like Napoleon Dynamite too. Gut said he had to be the only guy to come up with that, heh.
Bad Candy on April 19, 2007 at 2:07 AM
Yeah, I had literally just clicked “send” on an email to them to that affect when Bill said that. They actually read an email I sent a few weeks ago, but this time if they do they’ll use it to mock me, because it’ll look like I was being stupid since Bill just said it.
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 2:14 AM
Heh. You actually got a letter read on RedEye? Cool.
Bad Candy on April 19, 2007 at 2:18 AM
Yeah, two on O’Reilly (though he shortened them which caused them to lose meaning, in order to make them “pithy”) and one on Cavuto too. This has been over the last approx 3 years. And I rarely email them either. I think I’ve maybe emailed Cavuto twice. I shoot a one liner off to O’Reilly roughly once a month, and I’ve probably emailed RedEye twice. I’ve also emailed a letter to Maxim 2 or 3 times, with 2 being printed. I got my free gift for the first one, but they screwed me and never sent me the gift for the second!
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 2:26 AM
“I’ve also emailed a letter to Maxim 2 or 3 times, with 2 being printed. I got my free gift for the first one, but they screwed me and never sent me the gift for the second!”
Samantha “oink” Judge?
Connie on April 19, 2007 at 2:38 AM
Not sure I entirely get the joke, but no… The gift for the first one was a sweet car washing kit. Everything came in this bucket with all sorts of high quality waxes and clothes, etc. Only some had busted during shipping and got everything sticky.
The second thing, which I didn’t receive, was supposed to be an Maxim engraved bartender’s mixer, etc.
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 2:45 AM
There is a direct relationship between selfishness and awareness of one’s surroundings. If we are so into ourselves, our own lives, we will always miss the warning signs of the Chos around us.
I have always viewed liberals as the ultimate in selfishness. Me, me, me. Now, now, now. Our society has encouraged the idea of “what about me” to a very dangerous point. When I was growing up in the 80’s, we saw the decline of a neighborhood that took care of it’s own. Now, we strive to completely ignore those around us.
I’m not saying that the victims deserved this, not at all. I’m saying that I believe this type of catastrophe to be an unintended consequence of Americans becoming too concerned with themselves. I doubt that most kids on that campus can recall a time when neighbors cared for and sacrificed for one another on pure principle.
I can tell you this: had I been in one of his classes, I would have taken him for treatment either by talking him into it or by just taking him with force. I’ve done this more than once with 3 schizophrenic friends, one of whom drove his truck deliberately into an oncoming semi on the highway.
It also occurs to me that someone may have done just that for Cho at some point and the media has either ignored it or hasn’t heard it yet. We don’t know. My point is that there are very real and grave consequences for turning away from age-old wisdom like “love thy neighbor”. Who among us will sacrifice his comfort for that of his neighbor? What TV shows do you know of that illustrate this? What modern-day role models do we have for this?
I’m sorry, but this catastrophe, as well as all the other school massacres, are what happens when right becomes wrong and wrong becomes right. The democrats want to connect this incident with Iraq? Well I want to connect this incident to the democrats.
Liberalism can only end in tragedy.
unamused on April 19, 2007 at 2:59 AM
unamused, why is it that you know so many schizophrenics? Do you work at a mental hospital?
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 3:06 AM
I’ve spent a lot of time in various support groups both inside and outside hospitals. Fighting mental illness is a full time job when you first start to really try to fight it. I have always banded together with other nutjobs (I have bipolar disorder) in order to help them, which is cathartic for me.
I also have a couple of mentors who were psychiatric nurses once. They taught me a lot about “crazy people” and how to deal with them.
Of the 4 schizophrenics I have known personally, 1 has a somewhat normal and regular existence. He holds a job and is a good father. He is a 6′ 6″ 250 lb black man who sees little green men from time-to-time (I kid you not). He is more afraid of having a psychotic break than anyone else around him, though you would think we should be more worried given how large and powerful he is. He is a gentle giant afflicted with a horrible disease and would sooner die than hurt someone. But he sees the danger in his brain. He calls it “a ticking timebomb” that will go off if left untreated. So he takes the debilitating medicine and trudges on in life. Where would he be without those who care for him? Don’t know. Don’t want to know.
I have also had a few episodes of hallucinations. I usually only suffer from mania and depression (of which I’m in remission right now) but under extreme duress, I will see things. It’s usually just polka-dots in odd colors but a few times I’ve seen real people who weren’t there, birds, cats, rats. I’ve learned to ignore it a’la A Beautiful Mind. My wife knows when I’m manic and makes sure I get help. I’ve given her legal permission to contact my doctor, or call the police, if I won’t listen to reason. I have no choice, I can’t tell when it’s happening. She also tries to make sure I’m on my meds. Most men would find it humiliating to be watched over like a child, but she and I have learned that the consequences of not doing it that way are far worse than humiliation.
Don’t misunderstand why I share this information. Cho deserves nothing from us. Let God sort out the matters of his soul. We should try to learn from this in some way, and as I’ve lived with mental illness all my life it is what I have the most profound experience with.
Legislation is NOT the answer to what happened in Virginia this week. Awareness is the answer. If you know what to look for and how to react, you can redirect the Chos of this world before their delusions reach critical mass. Awareness is something that our government can’t give us. We must want to pay attention and we must know what to watch for.
unamused on April 19, 2007 at 3:24 AM
Good. Know your neighbor.
Ouabam on April 19, 2007 at 4:55 AM
I don’t think the law will change. Liberals will probably concentrate on getting more gun-safe zones and stricter gun laws, and the MSM will probably run with the story that Cho’s access to guns caused the rampage, instead of his obvious mental illness.
Most mentally ill people don’t go on shooting rampages, but his violence in his creative writing and stalking charges should have been clues that he was dangerous.
januarius on April 19, 2007 at 7:16 AM
One more thing: It does seem like the MSM is going to try to spin the rampage as being about Cho’s angst as an “outsider” (racial angle) and his access to guns (gun control angle).
They certainly won’t bring up the real causes so many students died: The fact that Cho was still a student and not in an asylum and that perhaps if there had not been a gun free zone someone could have taken him out.
This article posted on Drudge was amazing. This is really what the MSM is worried about and the lessons they are taking from the atrocity:
http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_107170729.html
januarius on April 19, 2007 at 7:27 AM
Interesting article over at Jihad Watch this morning. It seems that some of the jihadis are happy to ‘adopt’ Cho as one of their own, regardles of his religion. Death to America.
RedWinged Blackbird on April 19, 2007 at 7:32 AM
I lived in Centreville VA (where Cho’s parents home is) and their house looks like any one of a thousand other townhouses that have been packed into the area since the commuter/housing boom that started in the 1970s. Centreville is one of a hundred different commuter sources along Rt 66 that goes straight into Washington DC.
That 22 bullet could have been left by someone as a comment, a joke, or just by accident - - all seem unlikely.
I have not heard of a cop using a 22 handgun, it does not really have that much stopping power.
A 22 long rifle bullet is pretty common for a hunting rifle.
If Cho went to the trouble of placing a 22 bullet at his parents house, that says volumes, but why would he leave it on the sidewalk? Did he no longer have access to the house?
And if he did place leave it there, how could he have any hope his parents would even see it before someone came along and kicked it away (by accident) or picked it up?
Cho appears to be way more methodical than that, to say the least.
erix138 on April 19, 2007 at 7:50 AM
Walking from the Main Street Post offices referred to above, he would have been coming from the Southeast. A little more East than South. The other Post office is Northwest, but awkward to walk to. If he went to the University City location, he likely drove.
HDW
from work
Blacksburg Virginia
High Desert Wanderer on April 19, 2007 at 8:17 AM
New video at CNN AP
RightWinged on April 19, 2007 at 8:29 AM
The walls are cinderblock walls painted the same color VT has been using for over 30 years
My VT dorm and classrooms had the same wall
Valiant on April 19, 2007 at 8:30 AM
So Brian Williams does still possess a modicum of shame, or humanity, in his ratings are all heart. Bully for him. Too bad it’s after NBC ran the scoop that fell in their laps.
Retread on April 19, 2007 at 8:54 AM
Would you and Drudge please stop showing this a$$hole’s ugly face?
packsoldier on April 19, 2007 at 8:54 AM
Regarding the .22 casing found, McClatchy says it’s an unspent round.
As already noted, this is an awfully common, awfully cheap round and without additional reason to make something of it, I wouldn’t. It’s entirely plausible that someone simply dropped it while putting stuff in/getting stuff out of their car.
Pablo on April 19, 2007 at 8:55 AM
BTW, the Houston Chronicle link is dead now.
Pablo on April 19, 2007 at 8:57 AM
Wrong link there, I think, Pablo.
Allahpundit on April 19, 2007 at 9:03 AM
Doh! A leftover from a pw thread. Here’s the right one.
Pablo on April 19, 2007 at 9:12 AM
Lauer, Idiot.
Viper1 on April 19, 2007 at 9:15 AM
A couple of the pictures look like he is sitting in a car.
BacaDog on April 19, 2007 at 9:23 AM
Allahpundit:
My $.02: your coverage has been fantastic. I haven’t even bothered with other sites to get information about this story. You seem to have grabbed it with both hands and are wringing the details out. Very good job.
Mallard T. Drake on April 19, 2007 at 9:25 AM
He always does that, doesn’t he? As news gathering goes, Big A is the best blogger in the business, bar none.
Pablo on April 19, 2007 at 9:58 AM
A couple thoughts. Are we sure there’s not a full-service post office in the Squires Student Center on campus? I think most large universities have post offices in their student centers. Mine did, for sure. Second, hasn’t the roommate said Cho had started getting up really early every morning? If he was up at five, it seems to me he could have easily spent an hour or two filming in the common area of a suite without his sleeping roomies knowing. If it’s a dorm suite, the common area and rooms are small, but they are separate rooms, with closable doors, usually.
marykatharine on April 19, 2007 at 10:12 AM
I’m trying to remember from my time at Virginia Tech in the 90’s. I know there was a credit union that I used all the time at Squires, but I don’t recall a post office there. If you needed the services of a post office, most likely he would have used the downtown post office on Main Street. That is the one I remember using and I lived right next to campus on Wall St behind the Newman Center. The other post office Allah linked to speculating that is the one he used is way too incovenient for student on campus. First off it on the opposite end of the dorms beyond all these parking lots. Also, it is hill up and you have to cross major roads. If he lived on campus he would have used the Main Street post office.
As far as tracing which direction he went to Norris: There are so many ways you could get there from the downtown post office depending on one’s routine and inclination at the time, whether he wanted to not pass by many people, etc.
januarius on April 19, 2007 at 10:26 AM
Good question. Made me curious, so I looked up the zip code for Blacksburg versus the zip code for Virginia Tech, as some large universities often have their own.
The envelope was mailed from 24063, accordiing to the picture. The zip code for VT is 24061.
Slublog on April 19, 2007 at 10:27 AM
God bless you, my anonymous friend.
Buck Turgidson on April 19, 2007 at 10:31 AM
Hmm. I would say that if all his roomates were found dead and he was not among the dead, he would have been sought out immediately for questioning. So instead, he goes to another dorm, commits two murders which authorities mistake for a domestic dispute. While the police are distracted, he makes his away across campus in plenty of time, and without suspicion, to the engineering building.
I know people don’t like to see such crazy individuals as rational thinkers, but this young man, I think, planned his deed with patience. I think if he was an impulsive killer he would have shot his roomates. Yet they lived.
bert169 on April 19, 2007 at 10:31 AM
NBC is making millions from the free material sent by this monster, I think that money rightfully belongs to the victims and their families.
Speakup on April 19, 2007 at 10:35 AM
On the roomies being apparently oblivious:
I had two roommates when I lived in the dorm, and after the first month or so, I rarely if ever saw them. They more or less moved in with friends or boyfriends who had apartments and only popped in every once in awhile to get something they left in the dorm room. This is fairly common, I think.
aero on April 19, 2007 at 10:45 AM
Jihad Recruitment and Terror Process:
1. Find mentally unstable local or committed jihadist [check]
2. Assume an Islamic name [maybe Ismail/Ishamel]
3. Plan event in advance [check]
4. Kill as many innocent civilians as possible [check]
4a. Kill some Jews in the process [check]
5. Shave hair/body beforehand [check]
6. Prepare martyr video [check]
6a. Complain about Christians and Western decadence [check]
7. Kill/martyr self [check]
I agree, there’s no reason to question whether this guy is a jihadi.
faraway on April 19, 2007 at 10:45 AM
Only problem with that theory is that the martyr videos usually mention jihad and the reason for the killing. From what we’ve seen, Cho’s videos are mostly disjointed rambling about his own issues, not a greater cause.
Slublog on April 19, 2007 at 10:48 AM
Now that’s the best idea I’ve heard all day. Not only the families, but a memorial for the victims and for the University at large.
BacaDog on April 19, 2007 at 10:49 AM
You have assumed something that’s not a fact. Cho included 23 Quicktime videos on a DVD. We have seen maybe 60 seconds of those videos. The only videos we have seen are the ones that NBC wanted us to see. Let’s see all 23 videos before we conclude anything about them.
faraway on April 19, 2007 at 10:55 AM
That’s possible but it just seems strange to me that he’d be willing to do that with them in their bedrooms and liable to overhear him and potentially intervene to stop him before he could go out and start shooting. He knew that one of his roommates was already awake. Why risk it?
Allahpundit on April 19, 2007 at 10:59 AM
Bryan-Allah. Take the high ground on the rest of the weak and do a nice story on the lives of the victims. We know nothing about them.
Egfrow on April 19, 2007 at 11:00 AM
Two thoughts:
1. I had seen “Oldboy” a few months ago. I saw it because it’s a very critically acclaimed movie. You can check that out at http://www.imdb.com if you like. Although it is a violent Korean film, and this guy was Korean, that would be the only connection. To say that this film “made” Cho commit these murders is ABSURD. The plot of “Old Boy” has nothing remotely to do with what occurred at VT…especially when the “twist” is revealed at the end of the picture. It would be like saying that if an American college student was a big fan of “The Departed” and was responsible for all those killings, that “The Departed” had something to do with it. Park is a great South Korean director. I didn’t see what all the fuss was for “Oldboy,” but the third film in his “Revenge Trilogy” is “Lady Vengeance,” and that was truly a “Wow!” film to see.
2. I believe it was newsworthy and appropriate for NBC to show the Cho footage. Likewise, I feel it is appropriate if family members of victims decided not to go on NBC because of it. NBC can’t have it both ways…they lament that not having these family members will hurt their ratings, but I’m sure they were thrilled with the “exclusive get” of the Cho footage. When I watch the evening news, I usually watch ABC, but because I knew about this footage, I watched NBC last night.
asc85 on April 19, 2007 at 11:00 AM
I really think this site should take his photo down. He makes me sick and doesn’t deserve to have his face shown. Shut it down.
tomas on April 19, 2007 at 11:00 AM
As did you. There is more evidence to suggest the disturbed you man theory than the SJS theory, however.
Slublog on April 19, 2007 at 11:01 AM
The Chronicle of Higher Education has been doing a great (but heartbreaking) series on the victims.
Slublog on April 19, 2007 at 11:03 AM
I mentioned this Tuesday when it first came out about the shell found at the parents house. Its probably nothing but just because the press keeps saying its a bullet intended for a rifle doesn’t mean anything. 22 LR bullets are used in every conceivable type of gun.
RobertCSampson on April 19, 2007 at 11:03 AM
Don’t let RightWinged know that you are speculating from facts that it could possibly be jihad related.
I would add one to your list: A Saudi student with terrorist family ties recording the gunshots on his cellphone as they happen instead of being in class at the moment. It is good propaganda value, especially since the Saudi student then was comparing the atrocity to the treatment of the Palestinians.
Note: I’m not saying this is what happened; I’m just saying it is a little odd. Perhaps a total coincidence.
It is better to be overzealous about possible jihad connections than in no threat La-La land like most liberals.
januarius on April 19, 2007 at 11:04 AM
If I’m not mistaken, the roommate said that Cho had started getting up really early every morning shortly before the shooting, so I was thinking he could have filmed on successive mornings leading up to the shooting. There aren’t many college students who are conscious enough/sober enough at 5 a.m. to notice the wacko.
marykatharine on April 19, 2007 at 11:15 AM
There is no doubt the guy is a nutcase. I will go on record as saying that is fact.:)
faraway on April 19, 2007 at 11:16 AM
Can anyone read the address line on the package? 88 ?? Dr.
He uses the number 88 in his martyr document.
faraway on April 19, 2007 at 11:19 AM
By the way, I argued yesterday in my comments on the other threads that, despite Cho’s weird behavior, disturbing writing, stalking, and even his brief stint in a mental institution, that none of these were enough to involuntarily commit him or know that he was likely to go on a shooting spree. I wanted to acknowledge that I was wrong in Cho’s case since apparently a judge was notified by a psychiatrist that Cho was an imminent danger to himself and others. The judge dropped the ball by not making Cho’s treatment mandatory.
I still maintain that, in the absence of that psychiatrist’s assessment (of which the university officials, teachers, students, etc. were probably unaware), none of the rest of it warranted arresting Cho or trying to get him committed against his will. I do not blame anyone but Cho for what happened, though I do wish the judge had made the treatment mandatory. Even so, if the treatment had been mandatory, the chances are still high that Cho would have completed the treatment, gotten out and stopped taking his meds, and done it anyway. Call me cynical.
Anyway, I retract my statements that no-one could have known that Cho was an imminent danger to others. I do not retract my statements cautioning against hastily arresting or committing anyone in the future who displays any kind of aggressive or disturbing behavior (including weird writing, artwork, etc.). That’s a slippery slope I think we should work hard to avoid. It would not prevent future spree shootings, and would seriously curtail our collective freedoms.
aero on April 19, 2007 at 11:21 AM
Good point about the slippery slope. This may seem a little callous but let’s examine the odds of being a college or public school student getting killed by a crazy person. They are somewhere in the winning the lottery odds.
It is a terribly sad event that unfortunately is likely to happen again at some future point. In countries where there are no guns the crazies use knives.
This tragedy shouldn’t be blown out of proportion in order to justify more extreme protections such as “banning guns” or “concealed weapons permits for one and all”.
Perspective is needed.
Bradky on April 19, 2007 at 11:25 AM
Well I have finally picked up a couple of allies now on the “Why didn’t the students do something to fight back” issue. I have Neal Boortz and Mark Steyn on my side.
No I am preaching the “jump him when he reloaded” line. By the time you realized he was reloading the task would have already been completed. I haven’t seen a single comment where anything was thrown at this guy, anything other then blocking doors was done. For those who did block the doors and denied him access great. Once this clown was in the room it was time to take action and not simply pick out which desk you where going to die under.
LakeRuins on April 19, 2007 at 11:32 AM
Should be:
No I am NOT preaching the “jump him when he reloaded” line.
LakeRuins on April 19, 2007 at 11:34 AM
I see a little BDS in his writings
William Amos on April 19, 2007 at 11:37 AM
Lake, bad link on Boortz.
I don’t think our military could win anything it there wasn’t a pervasive attitude of sacrifice to achieve objectives. It’s the only way this could have gone different (absent a professor with a Beretta, of course).
On the other hand, good luck training your son or your straight A daughter to think that way. I have a daughter in college and I keep trying to place her and her friends in this arena to see what they could have done, and it would have been no different. Defense would have required military-style training of multiple individuals.
Our culture doesn’t do that.
Jaibones on April 19, 2007 at 11:38 AM
Fox has decided to stop showing the video portions of Cho’s “manifesto” (unless they become newsworthy again, says E.D.). That’s fine, except Fox seems to be smugly patting itself on the back for this belated decision. I don’t think they get credit for taking the high road after showing clips for several hours just like the rest of the nets did.
Personally, I don’t have a problem with the “manifesto” being completely revealed. I also don’t have a problem with a network deciding NOT to give the killer any more air time. I just think Fox is being disingenuous in its flip-flopping on this.
aero on April 19, 2007 at 11:44 AM
MKH,
He’s also wearing different outfits in different clips. I highly doubt that this was a one shot video, and your theory is probable. He was planning this for a while.
Pablo on April 19, 2007 at 11:44 AM
AP, your actual journalism on this story is quite refreshing, compared to the agenda-driven tripe we get and are getting from the networks.
Oops. I used the story to prop up my own worldview…
Jaibones on April 19, 2007 at 11:45 AM
LGF is reporting that 88 is a well know Neo Nazi Symbol for “Heil Hitler” (H being the 8th letter of the Alphabet)
William Amos on April 19, 2007 at 11:47 AM
Boortz
LakeRuins on April 19, 2007 at 11:48 AM
88, as in Duke 88?????
LakeRuins on April 19, 2007 at 11:48 AM
Are we really still milking the jihad angle? Januarius and others had quietly and smartly stopped with the release of this new evidence I thought, and then out of nowhere you come out of the woodwork.
Just a few questions for you…
Have any of Cho’s roommates mentioned anything about an interest in Islam or that he had attended a Mosque? If he was devout enough to kill himself for the cause don’t you think they would have seen him praying or reading the Koran at least once?
Can you think of any jihadists who fail to mention Allah at least once before/during their killing?
Who is the last jihadist who compared himself to Jesus Christ?
Who is the last jihadist who sacrificed himself for “the helpless and tormented?” Don’t they sacrifice themselves for Allah?
There are simply no facts to support your theory, you’re just reaching in the dark. Do all the speculating you want, but realize you come off like a 9/11 truther.
JaHerer22 on April 19, 2007 at 11:53 AM
I