New VTech thread: Was Cho schizophrenic, “mean,” or both? Update: NBC receives material mailed by Cho; Update: Video added; Update: Cho called Columbine killers “martyrs” in manifesto; Update: Envelope signed “A. Ishmael”
posted at 4:40 pm on April 18, 2007 by Allahpundit
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There’s new information about him this morning but most of it is stuff we already know. The cops held a press conference to say that he stalked two women in 2005 and then got sent away to a mental hospital for a spell, which we learned last night from that bizarre CNN interview with his two former roommates. Meanwhile, the NYT has a scoop about the cops having initially misidentified the suspect in the first shooting as Emily Hilscher’s gun-aficionado boyfriend. If only the LA Times hadn’t had the same scoop hours earlier.
Here’s some genuinely new information, though, via ABC News. A forensic psychiatrist who’s been following the story says Cho’s behavior sounds familiar, and it goes way beyond depression:
What then leads you to believe Cho had schizophrenia?
How he related to his roommate was just too bizarre to be depression. The bizarre content of his plays — mashing a half-eaten “banana bar” in someone’s mouth, the hypersexual, nihilistic (death obsessed) obsessions in the absence of depressive guilt or tearfulness are another clue. The progressive decline of a period of years. Those with schizophrenia, especially in their earliest years, are not readily recognizable as such — their condition is evolving. But here was someone who, as early as 2005, was carrying himself so strangely that he was a spectacle. The depressed withdraw and disappear. Those who are so peculiar in their manner so as to be inappropriate (taking cell phone pictures of his teacher, speaking inaudibly, pulling a cap low over his eyes) exhibit signs and symptoms more indicative of schizophrenia. He was communicating in a rambling manner reflective of what we appreciate as autistic thinking — characteristic of schizophrenia. In a similar vein, Mr. Cho’s stilted communication in his homicide note (deceitful charlatans — not the language of a 23-year-old college kid) is also the manner of a schizophrenic’s communications, as is his pronounced delay in responding to questions.
Poet Nikki Giovanni, who taught Cho in one of her classes, tells the LA Times that she actually had guards stationed nearby at one point to intervene in case Psy-Cho (as See-Dub dubs him) went off. And here’s what she told CNN:
“I knew when it happened that that’s probably who it was,” Giovanni said, referring to her former pupil. “I would have been shocked if it wasn’t.”…
[In the fall of 2005,] Giovanni went to the department’s then-chairwoman, Lucinda Roy, and told her she wanted Cho out of her class, and Roy obliged.
“I was willing to resign before I was going to continue with him,” Giovanni said. “There was something mean about this boy.”
Giovanni said she’s taught her share of oddballs in the past, but there was something malicious about Cho’s behavior.
“I know we’re talking about a troubled youngster and crap like that, but troubled youngsters get drunk and jump off buildings; troubled youngsters drink and drive,” she said. “I’ve taught troubled youngsters. I’ve taught crazy people. It was the meanness that bothered me. It was a, really, mean streak.”
We all knew weird, quiet kids at college, but I certainly never knew anyone so weird that the teachers felt they needed guards around in order to teach him. British journalist Toby Harnden (who’s been reading this blog, among others, to keep tabs on the story) is promising an interview on Thursday in the Telegraph with Cho’s roommate that’ll reveal even more warning signs about his lethal strangeness. And so I repeat my question from last night: how did they let this time bomb keep ticking for so long?
The other stuff I’ve got right now is just a grab bag. The Times has posted a new graphic showing the layout of the second floor of Norris Hall; so far as I know, no one’s explained yet why he went upstairs instead of sticking to the first floor. Bob Owens discovers that ABC News is deleting comments that challenge them on their crappy reporting about large-capacity magazines. And readers are kicking up a fuss about the Australian Telegraph’s sensationalistic headline and lede about Cho’s possible obsession with Emily Hilscher. I think it’s nonsense: they’re just being tabloidy about the fatal attraction element, not blaming her for her own murder.
I’m sure there’ll be updates here throughout the day, albeit (hopefully) not as many as the last few posts have had. In the meantime, compare Iran’s reaction to the shooting to the “teacher’s lesson” on terrorism for “Bowling for Columbine.”
Update: Steyn tries to parse the rules for what constitutes “adulthood” these days: “[W]e live in a selectively infantilized culture where twentysomethings are ‘children’ if they’re serving in the Third Infantry Division in Ramadi but grown-ups making rational choices if they drop to the broadloom in President Clinton’s Oval Office.”
Update: Just breaking — NBC says it received a package from Cho which it has reason to believe was sent between the first and second shootings. Supposedly it contains photos and video, which probably means they’re images he took of the first shooting on his cell phone right after it happened. You’ll recall he was known to take cell-phone photos of his classmates during class, one of his little habits that freaked them out.
NBC says it’s already turned over the information to the police. Stand by.
Update: Multiple photos, video, and “rambling writings” were in the package.
Update: It sounds like the video, at least, wasn’t of the crime scene but of Cho listing his “grievances.” He must have mentioned the first shooting, otherwise I don’t how they could be so sure that he filmed it after that had happened: “Cho Seung-Hui sent NBC News a long and rambling communication and video about his grievances, the network said Wednesday. Network officials turned the material over to the FBI and said they would not immediately disclose its contents pending the agency’s review.” Update: They’ve updated the article to say that the timestamp is the giveaway. Hmmm.
Update: I won’t repeat my ticking-time-bomb question yet again, but … okay, I will repeat it. If they knew in 2005 that he was “mentally ill” and an “imminent danger to himself,” why did the magistrate refer him for outpatient treatment?
Update: More: “The package, timestamped in the two-hour window between Monday’s shootings, was sent to NBC News head Steve Capus. It contained digital photos of the gunman holding weapons and a manifesto that ‘rants against rich people and warns that he wants to get even,’ The Associated Press quoted an unidentified New York law enforcement official familiar with the case as saying.”
Update: NBC says it’s going to air portions of the video tonight. Wow.
Update: Still more. Why would Cho have sent the video to the president of the NBC News instead of Brian Williams or whoever? “The package, timestamped in the two-hour window between Monday’s shootings, was sent to NBC News head Steve Capus. In an interview with MSNBC.com, Capus said Cho talks to the camera in the videos. In one instance, he makes a vague reference to the massacre, Capus said, and said, ‘This didn’t have to happen.’ ‘The statement is hard to follow, kind of rambling. He speaks about hatred,’ Capus said, adding that it was ‘distrubring, very angry, profanity laced.’”
Update: The post office must have been his last stop before Norris Hall: “The package bore a U.S. Postal Service stamp recording that it had been received at a Virginia post office at 9:01 a.m. ET Monday, about an hour and 45 minutes after Cho shot two people in the West Ambler Johnston residence hall on the Virginia Tech campus and shortly before Cho entered Norris Hall, where he killed 30 more people.” There are 23 Quicktime files in the package, according to NBC.
Update: Go see the photo on MSNBC’s front page. The survivors said he was wearing a tan shirt during the attack, almost like a boy scout’s uniform.
Update: I admit I’m keen to see what Cho had to say for himself, but Mona Charen makes a good point. Does NBC realize what it’s doing here by extending Ismail Ax’s 15 minutes of fame?
And speaking of which, I don’t see any writing in red ink on his inner arm in that NBC photo.
Update: Yet another update from NBC. Lest there was any doubt left, this was highly premeditated. And as I speculated the other day, the ammo appears to have been unusually lethal:
The production of the videos indicated that Cho had worked on the package for some time, because he not only “took the time to record the videos, but he also broke them down into snippets” that were embedded paragraph by paragraph into the main document, Capus said…
Other photographs show Cho holding a knife, and some show hollow-point bullets lined up on a table, Capus said.
Update: Spruiell thinks this is a bad call by NBC too. I think it’s a close call, but I’m not sure I agree.
Update: The NBC Nightly News is airing now. Brian Williams just said the return address on the envelope was signed “Ismail” — or “Ishmael,” as Williams pronounced it. Pete Williams says there’s evidence that he was preparing this at least six days before the shooting.
Update: Here’s the segment from the Nightly News. Question: Where were these videos shot? I assumed it was in his dorm room, but that white brick background looks more like a hallway.
Update: They aired a little more video at the end of the show. More of the same: Cho ranting about trust funds, hedonism, Jesus Christ — and then, in the written document he gave them, a reference to “martyrs like Eric and Dylan.”
Update: Catherine Herridge is on Fox News right now telling Shep Smith that a VTech spokesman said this afternoon they had no idea Cho was taken a mental hospital or investigated for stalking in 2005.
Update: All right, two screencaps. First is the envelope slip, showing pretty clearly he signed it “A. Ishmael.” Presumably that means what was written on his arm was “Ishmael Ax,” not “Ismail Ax,” which makes the already dubious jihad theory that much more dubious.
Recall that reader Ray F. theorized a few days ago that “Ismail/Ishmael Ax” was a reference to James Fenimore Cooper’s story “The Prairie,” the lead character of which was “Ishmael Bush” — spelled the same way Cho spells it here. So let’s not rule that theory out just yet.
Now the second photo. Is this him wielding his “ax”? It’s a strange way to hold a hammer.
Update: NBC’s got a slideshow with new photos in the sidebar here. You can see clearly in their copy of the envelope slip that it’s “Ishmael.” Note the array of hollow-tipped bullets in photo 7.
Update: Williams and Williams say there’s no way to tell (yet) when the videos were recorded, but note that at one point he says, “You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today.”
Update: Newsweek’s got a great, terrifying article up about Colin Goddard, a senior who was in French class in Norris Hall when Cho shot his way through the locked door and began walking up and down the aisles, pumping bullets into students. Goddard was hit in the leg but played dead until Cho left. Then:
Suddenly, the classroom door burst open again. The killer was back. “He came back in and started going around the room again, shooting people.” Up one aisle and down another, Cho moved through the room, repeating the path he had taken the first time. When the killer reached Goddard, he felt two more bullets punch into his body, one in the shoulder, and one in his buttocks. “My chest and torso were kind of underneath a desk, that’s why I think I got shot in my extremities,” he told NEWSWEEK.
It sounds like Cho committed suicide in that very room just a few moments later, moments before the cops burst in.
Update: I know people are going to start sending me this link soon, so let me flag it now and warn you: the Northeast Intelligence Network is a notoriously alarmist site. Before you go jumping at shadows about jihad and 9/11, wait for a credible media source to report it.
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That’s a good point. I live in DC and of all the schools in this area–UVA, George Washington, Maryland, Georgetown, John Hopkins–Virginia Tech has the reputation of being the least likely to attract “rich kids” from from elite families. It’s definitely perceived as more of a second-tier school for middle-class Virginians.
That just gives me more reason to believe Cho was just completely out of his gourd and it’s really pointless to attempt to look for rational explanations for this.
JaHerer22 on April 18, 2007 at 8:03 PM
Did he say forced? He is simply stating a medical fact - if schizophrenics do not take their medication, they become symptomatic.
Do you disagree with that?
Slublog on April 18, 2007 at 8:04 PM
He talking his children in his own imaginery planet. I bet the tape will contain sci-fi stuff in it.
Ouabam on April 18, 2007 at 8:05 PM
Exactly. We can’t understand the motivations of a person who likely didn’t understand his own motivations.
Slublog on April 18, 2007 at 8:05 PM
That’s why I’m wondering if he’s possessed. Just because you’re schizo doesn’t mean you’re going to be violent. We had one in our church. He just heard cartoon voices but was the most gentle guy you’d ever meet.
PRCalDude on April 18, 2007 at 8:06 PM
And Papa Bear leads-off The Factor with the killer’s video…Dear gawd, people! This crud should not be shown. The story itslef is news, but this video is not.
At least NBC is getting it’s props with their logo plastered on all the vids and pics…You go!, peacock…
JetBoy on April 18, 2007 at 8:06 PM
I thought he just got caught up in talking points. And like envroweenies in highschool saying about future generations. Thing is, did he plan on offing himself at the end?
- The Cat
P.S.
Then again, it could be that.
MirCat on April 18, 2007 at 8:07 PM
If they did not show the pictures and videos of killers CourtTV would be off the air.
EnochCain on April 18, 2007 at 8:09 PM
Point is, the Olby types are there to preach their psychosis to the likes of Cho.
Perchant on April 18, 2007 at 8:09 PM
I can’t believe it! Keith Olberman just actually said that a friend of his in the middle east sent a note to him saying that this video looks very much like the suicide videos of the terroorists he was used to seeing in the Middle East.
Rightwingsparkle on April 18, 2007 at 8:10 PM
I will say that the voice difference in the videos is more than creepy.
Rightwingsparkle on April 18, 2007 at 8:11 PM
I would go even so far to say that if the Olbster were off the air this massacre wouldn’t have happened.
Nonfactor on April 18, 2007 at 8:12 PM
Yeah, I’ve considered the possession angle too. I just don’t get how he could have been so precise, etc. How the hell do you walk in to those classrooms with handguns (not machine guns, not grenades) and kill 30 people without anyone stopping you? I’m still so confused by that. Was this kid some sort of amazing marksman who managed to kill each person with one or two shots? Remember he had to reload too.
Another thing that’s odd, but could be nothing more than deranged ranting, he claims we (or whoever he’s attacking in the video) spilled his blood, and acts as if that’s what set him off. Did this “nerd” get beat up by a “jock” the day before? Actually, that wouldn’t make sense because he was picking up the guns well before… I just don’t buy “mental illness” as such a simple “he was crazy, end of story” conclusion. In my mind, there has to be more. Obviously not real justification for his actions, but more beyond just being out of his mind.
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 8:12 PM
I can understand NBC showing the video, but there was no reason they had to include the audio. They should have shown him talking, but denied him the chance to spread his hate. It’s not a perfect compromise, but it’s certainly better than what they did.
Slublog on April 18, 2007 at 8:13 PM
When they were in the hospital they were forced to take meds….later my sister was given a shot because on the outside she wouldn’t take her meds……Schizophrenia is a devastating illness….it is somewhat akin to alzheimers where the person you knew is gone…as though their body was taken over by another. It is very sad for the family…almost like living with a zombie…the body is there but the mind of the person you knew is gone. My sister is doing okay in a nursing home but her life has been a hell on earth. She tried numerous times to kill herself and no one would let her…she was always saved at the last minute. Before my Dad died he said , we should have let her kill herself. So, yes hate the evil that takes over their mind, but the family probably remembers the person they used to be…. Again, as far as forced “health care”. It is important to treat the mental illness or something like this can happen…The ACLU should be made to allow the family to get these people the help they need. Right now you need their cooperation which you most often will not get….
Right now my sister has uterine cancer, she should have an operation but although I am her guardian and want her to have it, she doesn’t want to (cuz she is crazy) and I cannot make her……makes a lot of sense eh????
Mellen on April 18, 2007 at 8:13 PM
I’m not talking about making a bunch of new laws, only doing what that very uni had talked about doing and decided against before this all happened (which it would have stopped) BTW, how many planes out of all the yearly fights actually fly into buildings? Are Air Martials a bad idea?
Yes those were two words but hardly what I was getting at. Nice use of extremes. Forced Evaluation leading to (if deemed worthy) forced hospitalization.
- The Cat
P.S. Yes it’s all a work in progress (just like anything/system) but no work at all = no progress
MirCat on April 18, 2007 at 8:14 PM
Oh, man…how flame retardent is your underwear?
Like see-dubya said above to Allah, better put it on. ‘Cause you are going to need it after that one.
Slublog on April 18, 2007 at 8:14 PM
I’m more inclined to think this guy was crazy enough on his own without having to get his ideas from some idiot on cable news.
Besides, if he was really influenced by Olby, where were the complaints about Booooosh, or comparisons to hitler? Or halliburta? Or blaming the illegal war for oil for anything and everything? etc.
dead-duck on April 18, 2007 at 8:15 PM
Any context around this? I mean this read with the shock you have, or knowing Olby, to him it means ’see, we are just as bad’
- The Cat
MirCat on April 18, 2007 at 8:17 PM
In a case like this, I think forced health care is a great idea. If you are so bad that you need medication in order to be considered safe, then yep, it must be forced, or you need to be locked up. Whatever the case may be, medical institutions need to start sharing certain info with the FBI and ATF. Didn’t we learn our lesson from putting up “walls” between agencies?
Just another example why closing down all the institutions was a bad idea - more liberalism at work…
reaganaut on April 18, 2007 at 8:18 PM
When are we going to see video excerpts where he describes that he did it because of Global Warming and Dick Cheney.
faraway on April 18, 2007 at 8:18 PM
The ATF?…ha…now there is a great agency…
EnochCain on April 18, 2007 at 8:19 PM
We can all thank Jimmy Carter and staff for that.
rockhauler on April 18, 2007 at 8:20 PM
Even though this might come back to bite me, I’ll vote “yes”
ScottMcC on April 18, 2007 at 8:21 PM
Interesting. Ishmael and Issac were sons of Abraham. Ishmael became the father of the Muslims, while Isaac, his brother, became the father of the Jews. So when Cho ‘rails against Christianity’, he is speaking on behalf of the Muslims and the Jews.
RedWinged Blackbird on April 18, 2007 at 8:22 PM
Regarding the white block wall background, I’m seconding sunny’s comment.
UCLA dorm walls, in at least one of the large buildings, look exactly like that. But at least they’re smooth. Cal Poly SLO has some dorms with the nastiest, roughest, vertically-ribbed concrete walls ever seen in a living quarters.
JoeEgo on April 18, 2007 at 8:23 PM
.
AP,
with all due respect there are many accepted spelling variations on Ishmael, because it’s an English phonetic rendering of the Arabic. (Like Muhammed, Mohamed, Mohammed. ) Ishmael = Ismail. It’s the same name. We now know that he deliberately chose that name, having used it at least twice, and therefore he had reason for chosing it. It meant something symbolic to him, it’s part of his message.
If it was Ismail alone, that could mean any number of things, but with the ax, that means smashing through the idolators and their false idols. Everything in the message re: money, gold, cars, riches, etc. refers to idols, the debauchery harkens to the debauchery of the temples of the idol worshippers. Even the poses are like someone ready to smash. Written on his arm, the arm symbolizes the ax.
What we don’t know is whether he found this reference himself and liked it or if it was suggested to him. Where did he practice his shooting? Where did he make the video? Did he do it himself, did someone help? Did he tape it then edit it - so when and where did he do that? If he left the campus to mail his package, where did he keep his guns, his package, everything? He had roommates. One supposes he could have done it all from his room … laughing at the cluelessness of his roomates, but who knows?
naliaka on April 18, 2007 at 8:23 PM
He could imagine himself as Ismail and that is why he signed the package that way, why he sounds funny on the video, and why he refers to his brothers, sisters and children.
faraway on April 18, 2007 at 8:24 PM
I think its probably best to have released this stuff.
It cuts of the “Conspiracy” crowd.
I can just see olby now saying this guy was a right wing gun nut. Or that this is just another Christian Fanatic.
But the killer himself dispells that notion. If anything he sounds like a left wing moonbat railing about the “Rich” and society.
William Amos on April 18, 2007 at 8:26 PM
Well, by my count, I have four votes, counting my own, for “DITCH THE AGITPROP HOME VID and ONLY show the morgue photo with his FACE BLOWN OFF”…
Votes?
seejanemom on April 18, 2007 at 8:28 PM
I am not so sure about the talk of him being demon possessed…if I remember correctly in the video he talks about “this didn’t have to happen, I could have fled” as if he wanted to get away from something…perhaps his life or the people he thought were persecuting him…this just seems like something that built up over time inside of him until he finally lost grip on whatever reality he still had a hold on.
EnochCain on April 18, 2007 at 8:28 PM
Well, maybe you should read them before lecturing others.
There’s no way this guy should have been getting a passing grade as an English major.
Exactly.
So, we shouldn’t be so judgmental of people who might be dangerous, but it’s OK to suggest that college kids who lost or could have lost their lives are basically cowards? Nice.
John from WuzzaDem on April 18, 2007 at 8:29 PM
I’d call that a ’small minority of extremists’.
RedWinged Blackbird on April 18, 2007 at 8:30 PM
Psy-Cho recorded the majority of these stupid vids in his dorm room and took over a dozen photos with his guns, bullets, hammers, and knives everywhere…
Didn’t his roommates consider that sort of thing to be a little freaky?
ScottMcC on April 18, 2007 at 8:33 PM
I wonder if what Goddard is talking about is what we heard in the cellphone video where shots are heard. From the sounds of the shots, they were done one by one - stopped for a few seconds, and then resumed, and then there was a massive loud pop at the end, which could have been Cho killing himself.
SisterToldjah on April 18, 2007 at 8:34 PM
When you suffer a hallucination of a cup of coffee and try to pick it up, then you can tell me about what a mentally ill person should and should not know. Until then, don’t let your righteousness keep you from helping those who need it.
What he did was evil, no doubt, but he was under the control, not influence, CONTROL of something beyond his conscious mind.
That said, I am responsible for my own care and feeding. If I miss doses of medication, don’t eat right, don’t sleep right, it’s my fault. If I am out of my mind, stop me. I don’t need a hug, I need to be stopped. I have been put in the hospital without my consent on more than one occasion and have learned that I was lucky to have only had that as a consequence. Many others die by their own hand or murder innocents.
I’m making no apologies for Cho. He knew he had an illness and was at one time given treatment. No doubt he was not doing all he could to treat the disease. Most schizophrenics abhor the medication they have to take and will try again and again to go without it, usually to the detriment of their family and community. I have had many schizo friends and have forced them to go to the hospital when it occured to me that they were so unstable they may hurt someone. I saw it as my duty. I would rather waste 8 hours in an ER with a rambling psychopath than try to tell myself later on that “I’m sure it was nothing. They’ll be ok.”
So, who do we get to vilify if not Cho? While I’m sure most of you will be loathe to see Cho as sick and not evil, the question should still be asked. After all, you know damn well the MSM will be asking it soon enough. Here’s the choices as I see it:
1. His psychiatrist
2. His parents
3. VT Health Services
4. Anyone else who had knowledge of his psychosis
But these are all slippery in terms of blame. Each one can present an argument buttressed by the fact that, in lieu of power of attorney/guardianship, nobody has absolute responsibility over the mental health of an adult.
Which brings us back to the guns.
I am pro-gun. Not only would I fire on a psycho about to attack me or anyone around me, knowing full well that he is not himself, and with no malice towards him in my heart, but I would expect anyone else to do the same to me.
Anyone remember the movie Kujo? Was Kujo evil or sick? This would be a lot easier for us if he had all his faculties. Then I would agree that he was evil. The two boys that caused the Columbine massacre were, in my opinion, evil. But since Cho was obviously sick, the anger and anguish has nowhere to go. It is horrible, and I’m sorry if I have offended anyone, but I felt this perspective needed to be shared.
So here’s where my mind is and has been since last night: what now? If we can’t hate, if there is nobody to hold accountable and no clear way of preventing this in the future, what do we do? I think that there is only one realistic response to such a nightmare as this: help. We need to find a way to help those who need it. We need to accurately identify exactly what went wrong in the case of Cho and see what can be done to prevent it. Now is not the time for knee-jerk reactions or rhetoric. It’s time to pick up and dust off and help those who cannot do that for themselves. There will be plenty of time for everything else later.
unamused on April 18, 2007 at 8:35 PM
Olbermann just aired a video of Cho saying he was sacrificing himself for the innocent like Christ…
He’s officially nuts…I don’t remember Christ taking anyone else out with him…
JaHerer22 on April 18, 2007 at 8:38 PM
You’ve gotta be kidding me.
Nonfactor on April 18, 2007 at 8:41 PM
yup
- The Cat
MirCat on April 18, 2007 at 8:43 PM
Actually those cuts occurred during the Reagan administration.
Bradky on April 18, 2007 at 8:44 PM
Hate to say it, but these vidoes are going to cement a notorious legacy and will likely bring about many copycats. How many kids out there have been thinking about doing something like this? Will this put them over the top? Maybe.
Patriot33 on April 18, 2007 at 8:46 PM
NOT the worse mass murder in American History… not even close (h/t Malkin)
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/187474.php
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 8:48 PM
I also would like to add: what are the terrorists thinking right now? They see three-straight days of wall-to-wall 24/7 coverage of a school shooting. What if they were to carry out a 12-site, 2-man each rampage across the country? 12 schools with avg. 20 dead at each site, that’s 140 dead and the country paralyzed with fear. Chilling thought, but it just seems to unstoppable in a free society. It really is amazing and fortunate this happens so rarely…
Patriot33 on April 18, 2007 at 8:48 PM
Sadly, it is. The only thing that can be done to stop people who really want to kill other people is to stop them in the act.
Nonfactor on April 18, 2007 at 8:54 PM
Thank you. You know what’s cowardly? Walking into a building where you know everybody’s unarmed, blocking off the exits, and shooting as many as you can before the cops come and you kill yourself. That’s cowardly.
Jim Treacher on April 18, 2007 at 8:56 PM
Hollow tipped bullets or jacketed hollow points are nothing special. Police use them almost everywhere and are very common self defense rounds. They are not “unusually lethal” by any means.
Black talons aren’t more leathal either. The company that made the rounds caved into political pressure and renamed to SXT, short for Same exact thing.
Bodacious2182 on April 18, 2007 at 8:57 PM
I thought the same thing after the DC area sniper episode. Two men with one rifle terrorized a major city for weeks. Imagine that happening in ten major cities simultaneously. It could be done for a few thousand dollars.
RedWinged Blackbird on April 18, 2007 at 9:04 PM
Still waiting for someone in the media to make the connection between the anti-depressents that Cho had apparently been taking for years and the violence.
In most of the rest of the world, the major anti-depressant drugs include warning labels about suicide and rage/violence. Not in the U.S.
I’m tired of hearing people try to explain how he shouldn’t have had weapons. Without a felony record or a mental commitment, he couldn’t be prevented from legally purchasing firearms. And given his premeditation in this, who here thinks a gun-control law would have stopped him from acquiring a weapon? The ONLY thing gun limiting rules did in this case was ensure he wouldn’t face armed opposition.
Freelancer on April 18, 2007 at 9:05 PM
Two more quick points:
1. The second amendment IS the answer to how you protect society from it’s own freedom. You don’t have to take your meds, but if you break into my house while under a delusion I will put you down like Ol’ Yeller.
2. RightWinged: ultimately, crazy is a good enough explanation, but in the case of many people with schizophrenia there is a logical narrative that they believe they are taking part in. One of my friends with schizophrenia used to believe he was a character in a novel (just like that new movie Stranger Than Fiction). If the story became violent, so did he. We have already noticed some loose themes in association with Cho, but keep in mind anything we find out will tell us nothing except he was crazy.
unamused on April 18, 2007 at 9:06 PM
Make that five.
heroyalwhyness on April 18, 2007 at 9:10 PM
One of the drugs he took at one time was Effexor.
That drug caused me to go into a rage that ended with me escorted by the police to a hospital, drunk.
That drug has been linked to many incidents of the same for other patients.
unamused on April 18, 2007 at 9:13 PM
This ain’t a democracy, folks. Allah is all knowing, all powerful.
RedWinged Blackbird on April 18, 2007 at 9:13 PM
Effexor?…my ex girlfriend was on that…..that explains a lot…
EnochCain on April 18, 2007 at 9:15 PM
Who filmed him? Did he record himself?
Also, how many students really consume much cognac and vodka, even if rich? It seems that his rants are metaphorical, almost as if he imagines himself to be the sacrificial lamb for all misery and poverty in the world, dying “Jesus-like”, as he said.
It could be that culturally his failures were not accepted; also, for same reason that help for him wasn’t sought early and his condition worsened.
I’m not excusing his actions, just speculating on his illness/condition and inaction for treatment by his family, him, the school, all around, with very tragic consequences.
It’s still incomprehensible how one person can do all this, over the span of so much time.
Entelechy on April 18, 2007 at 9:16 PM
I think quite a few people, including myself, have speculated on that. For whatever reason, it just doesn’t seem to fit the way terrorists like to do things. Not spectacular enough? Hard to believe after this much news coverage, but I suspect that could be part of the reason. I think we should just be relieved that it has not occurred.
As for the ‘Ismail Ax’ angle, I’ve seen some interesting theories on that:
Reaps on April 18, 2007 at 9:25 PM
It bugs me that his entire family had to know how disturbed and deranged he was - and did (essentially) nothing. Did they not love their son enough to do something about his mental state? Did they not care enough about his future to know he wasn’t doing well in school - or in society at large? Ultimately he was a grown man who would create his own path, but the parents (surely knowing what he was becoming) should have done more.
thedecider on April 18, 2007 at 9:27 PM
moments before the cops burst in.
Finally got out from behind the cars, did they?
HerrMorgenholz on April 18, 2007 at 9:30 PM
There’s a long string of comments here so forgive me if someone has already posted this. Here’s a link to Cho’s disturbing play from The Smoking Gun.
thedecider on April 18, 2007 at 9:36 PM
I posed a question earlier that obviously didn’t register. I’ll pose it again in the naive assumption that it wasn’t read.
How many people who support the posting of this video also supported the posting of the sniper videos from Iraq?
It’s not meant to be an argumentative question. I’m just curious.
SailorDave on April 18, 2007 at 9:39 PM
That explains the high fatality rate. He wasn’t an extraordinary shot. He was just methodical.
TheBigOldDog on April 18, 2007 at 9:47 PM
Maybe you’ve missed it but he was committed. He was court ordered into treatment for being an imminent danger to himself and others. Fox has the court order.
TheBigOldDog on April 18, 2007 at 9:50 PM
I just don’t by a lot of “mental illness”. People are so quick to diagnose people with illnesses these days. Instead of people being told to stop acting like douches or be flicked in the ash bin of society, they’re coddled and told “you’re a victim, but these pills can help!”. As for that Stranger than Fiction syndrome, everyone has that. Obviously everyone is the most important person to themselves and it feels like the world going on around you is the story of your life. You never get the feeling like “Am I the Jim Carey in the Truman Story?”, you know it’s not the case, but we are the center of our own universe so it sometimes seems like it.
A friend of mine and I discussed this years ago, and to this day have what we call “robots” moments… his word actually originally, but now we use it anytime something weird happens. The joke is that everyone is a robot but “you” (in your case “me” in mine, etc.). Like I mention a story about someone that happened in high school and he’s like “robots! I hadn’t seen that person since high school and I just ran in to them yesterday!” Meaning that it’s too much of a coincidence, and me mentioning that person out of the blue indicates that I’m one of the robots. Meanwhile, it happens the other way, and I insist he’s one of the robots (which started out as his word, I never looked at it as everyone being robots but that was the funny way he explained the feeling).
Anyway, back to the point about “crazy” people. I think the vast majority are immature people who want attention. I’m sorry if you know a bunch of schizos, and I’m curious why you know so many unless you’re in some related field, but I just think these are labels given to people, when sometimes people just need a kick in the pants.
When I was a sophomore in high school I was getting crappy grades after having gotten honor roll up until high school. They tested me, determined I had college level abilities and that I just couldn’t concentrate so they started feeding me ADD and anti-depressants, and sending me to this shrink once a week. Each drug and combination of drugs affected me differently. Some made my heart race, some made my mouth dry, some made me zone in to my school work and block everything else out (not creepily, just that I would stick to a project rather than get distracted and take 10 minutes to get back in to it), etc. etc.
My point is, half the time the pills can be as much a part of the problem as anything. This all doesn’t mean this kid shouldn’t have been removed from school (based on the evidence), but I’m just saying everyone is so quick to ascribe “illness” to things so that no one has to be truly responsible for things.
Alcoholics aren’t “drunks”, they’re suffering from an “illness”, fat people aren’t unhealthy eaters, they have an “illness”, etc. etc. Every year we get studies reported in the MSM about the most ridiculous character flaws being called “illnesses”.
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 9:52 PM
M
Got my vote.
forged rite on April 18, 2007 at 9:56 PM
I’m not sure I think the MSM should be pumping this, but I think it should be available, and I’m actually annoyed that more isn’t available for use to mull over.
The sniper video is emboldening to the enemies in the battlefield. It’s like “look, we can kill US troops!” to the demoralized AQs who know they’ve been getting spanked (back to Zarqawi’s captured letters). It was a recruiting tool to get AQs and to energize them to go after US troops.
You could argue that this is encouraging other losers in the country to go kill classmates I suppose. But the reason I want to be able to sift through the information myself is to learn more about the motive. I don’t want to hear this “schizophrenic”, “illness” noise, there’s much more here. And do we trust the “authorities” and MSM to disseminate the information honestly? What if there is a Muslim connection? Do you think we’ll hear that? What if he is anti-ALL religion or like the evolution loving Columbine murderers? Do you think the information will come out in an honest way? I don’t. And there may be nothing to either of those things, and I’m not even meaning to imply there is. But consider this - We heard for about 24 hours that the first girl was an ex-girlfriend and that the guy with her was likely her new boyfriend. We had an entire night of the media hyping that facebook page of an innocent unrelated dude. Geraldo talked about his “hateful” comments and his “arsenal”, etc.
That’s my problem.
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 10:02 PM
And there is the confirmation of my problem. I’m not putting any stock in any of these theories at this point, though taking them all in to account… But “credible media”? What is that exactly? I don’t trust the reporting from the MSM, and I don’t think anyone here does or has any reason to.
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 10:05 PM
You’re right. But, it was not a “Mandatory” treatment order. The judge stated today that if he had issued a mandatory order, it would have been recorded and prevented Cho from obtaining a weapon. Since it was not mandatory, it didn’t.
BacaDog on April 18, 2007 at 10:07 PM
The Greeks used to take killers/assasains and erase them from history. Their name, their story, their image. We give them unlimited press time and publish their nutty pre-killing spree data, and make their names live on. Wonder why we get more nuts carying on the tradition?
One sick, evil, creep killing innocent people is simply that. What should be the story is what are we doing to arm sane people to takes these nuts out before they kill.
Hening on April 18, 2007 at 10:10 PM
The insanity is starting
Student arrested over Va. Tech remarks Wed Apr 18, 6:13 PM ET
BOULDER, Colo. - A University of Colorado student pleaded not guilty Wednesday to making comments that classmates deemed sympathetic toward the gunman blamed for killing 32 students and himself at Virginia Tech, authorities said.
During a class discussion Tuesday of Monday’s massacre at Virginia Tech, Max Karson “made comments about understanding how someone could kill 32 people,” university police Cmdr. Brad Wiesley said.
Several witnesses told investigators Karson, who turns 22 on Thursday, said he was “angry about all kinds of things from the fluorescent light bulbs to the unpainted walls, and it made him angry enough to kill people,” according to a police report. Witnesses “said they were afraid of him and afraid to come to class with him,” Wiesley said.
Karson, of Denver, was arrested Tuesday on a misdemeanor charge of interfering with staff, faculty or students of an education institution.
His father, Michael Karson, told the Camera newspaper that the comments may have been misinterpreted and questioned whether his son’s free speech rights had been violated.
“I would have hoped that state officials would know their First Amendment better than they seem to,” he said.
University spokesman Bronson Hilliard said privacy laws prevented him from releasing personal information about students.
At Oregon’s Lewis & Clark College, another student was detained by campus police Wednesday shortly before a vigil for the Virginia Tech victims when he was spotted wearing an ammunition belt. Portland police later determined that it was “a fashion accessory” made of spent ammunition, and said the man did not have a weapon. The belt was confiscated.
William Amos on April 18, 2007 at 10:11 PM
I think that’s a bit of a red herring but I’ll answer your question anyway. I think all material should be available for people to see if they want not because I support the material or don’t, just because I believe it offers people more freedom. I personally haven’t even seen a beheading video yet because I just don’t want to, but I support that the videos be available (which is not to say I support the making of the video or the act portrayed on the video).
Nonfactor on April 18, 2007 at 10:20 PM
What is A Ishmael? Whats it got to do with Islam?
spazzmomma on April 18, 2007 at 10:28 PM
As opposed to just plain ol’ lethal? Your lack of knowledge about firearms and ballistics is overwhelming and does not provide any clarity in the present matter or to others that do not possess such knowledge.
AZ_Redneck on April 18, 2007 at 10:35 PM
Ishmael, in Islam, Judaism and Christianity is the son of Abraham, Ibrahim in Islam.
Ishmael and his father are important figures in Islam because they brouoght the black cobblestone to Mecca. the stone that is now in the center of the area in which people make al-Hajj to. in some islamic interpretations, Abraham destroyed pagan icons with an ax.
blatantblue on April 18, 2007 at 10:36 PM
idk, maybe im crazy. he shaved his head, just like Muslim Shahid (martyr) operations. idk. who knows; nut job either way
blatantblue on April 18, 2007 at 10:37 PM
I’ll remember to mind my pints and quarts before posting comments.
thedecider on April 18, 2007 at 10:38 PM
I don’t want to stoke this wild speculation, but I suggest doing a CTRL+F (or running a “find”) on all previous threads on Ishmael/Ismail to see the discussion so far.
Ishmael is the father of Islam. Start reading Genesis chapter 16 of the Bible if you need background. Abraham’s first son was with this servant and his name is Ishmael, the second son who got the inheritance with his aged wife was Isaac, the father of Judaism for all intents and purposes. Basically this is the point when the two religions split.
AGAIN, A Ishmael, Ismail Ax, etc. doesn’t mean anything that we know of yet. Certainly there is some significance, but we look like a-holes if we go assuming it’s related to Islam at this point. Which is why I’m glad people like Januarius haven’t been back. He, and others, have obsessively and often idiotically attempted to find Islam links. These people need to take a breathe.
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 10:38 PM
word his he railed on Christianity in his manifesto?
blatantblue on April 18, 2007 at 10:40 PM
Ishmael was not really the father of Islam, but one of his descendants, Mohammed, born a couple of thousand years later was, and he appears to have been an early history and religious revisionist.
INC on April 18, 2007 at 10:44 PM
More Cho audio released:
http://gotwavs.com/Movies/Napoleon_Dynamite.html
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 10:46 PM
Well yeah, but you know what I mean… Ishmael and Abraham are figures in both the Koran and the Bible’s Old Testament. What I mean when I say “father” is just that it was basically the beginning of the split between Judaism and Islam.
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 10:48 PM
blatantblue-
He compared himself to Christ, and to being crucified.
Don’t remember The Big Angry Jesus Massacre.
Lost Book of the Bible?
profitsbeard on April 18, 2007 at 10:49 PM
Wow, the more I hear the audio from the video playing on the news, and then listen to these clips the more I realize just how much he sounds like Napoleon Dynamite
http://gotwavs.com/Movies/Napoleon_Dynamite.html
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 10:50 PM
The warning sign
http://gotwavs.com/php/sounds/?id=bst&media=WAVS&type=Movies&movie=Napoleon_Dynamite"e=feelverygood.txt&file=feelverygood.wav
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 10:51 PM
If by “railed” you mean ‘compared himself’ and if by “on” you mean ‘to’ and if by “Christianity” you mean ‘Christ’ then yes, he “railed on Christianity” over and over and over again.
Nonfactor on April 18, 2007 at 10:52 PM
and his brothers and sisters that we f**k (i guess was the bleeped word?
idk guess we will see
blatantblue on April 18, 2007 at 10:53 PM
Gah, profitsbeard beat me to a great joke.
Nonfactor on April 18, 2007 at 10:53 PM
supposedly in his manifesto he went after Christianity. waiting to hear about it again tho.
blatantblue on April 18, 2007 at 10:54 PM
I’ve had students who scared me enough to wish fervently that they were not in my class. Only a few, but every few years you get one who you wouldn’t be at all surprised if they did something like this. I had one this year. You find yourself being extra nice to those sorts on the off chance that if they do go off and start trying to kill people, you might have enough of a rapport with them to intervene somehow.
And no, I don’t get hazard pay.
Bob's Kid on April 18, 2007 at 10:55 PM
Nonfactor–huh? First of all, is there a complete tape of the manifesto I’ve missed?
Second–MSNBC’s voiceover–presumably written by someone who has seen the whole thing–said he rails against Christianity and hedonism, and then you hear him complain that “Christ is crucifying me”. Go up and watch the video for yourself.
see-dubya on April 18, 2007 at 10:56 PM
In addition to all the pain he has already caused, now he’s smearing people struggling with schizophrenia from the grave despite never having been diagnosed as such. Evil genius. May he burn in hell.
Buck Turgidson on April 18, 2007 at 11:00 PM
I keep forgetting to mention… I blame Marilyn Manson, The Matrix, video games, and guns!
RightWinged on April 18, 2007 at 11:03 PM
RightWinged, OK, I wasn’t sure.
INC on April 18, 2007 at 11:04 PM
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