Please be civil. Your desperate attacks only make you seem…desperate.

How can you not be concerned about the inflammatory misspelling of “Ismale” that every media outlet except WaPo made? Obviously the killer was just stating that he “is male”.

…obviously.

I’m not telling some numbskull on the Internet my personal information. Your ad hominem attempt to dodge a rebuttal about your WaPo conspiracy nonsense is typical conspiracy nut rhetoric. You’ve blown a lot of smoke here but you have yet to back your wacked out conspiracy nonsense with a bit of fact.

The WaPo is a liberal paper which often trims the facts to suit its liberal bias. However, I require proof of such acts. Your accusations don’t even pass the smell test as possible, let alone pass the evidence test.

When I disagreed with you, you accused me of working for the Washington Post.

Tantor

Well jeepers, if you don’t work at WaPo just say so. It certainly seemed plausible by your desperate defense of the the disgraced news outfit.

The spelling on the NBC envelope makes it seem at least possible that WaPo had the spelling correct. We’ll see.

In other words, the gun and our laws caused the shooting, not Cho Seung-hui. It is very much a group culture in Korea–one nation, one blood, one race–so you are going to get this denial that an individual Korean (and by Confucian implication the Korean nation) was to blame. There will be denial, but it is still irritating.”

januarius, we finally agree on something. I spotted the messages from the Korean government this morning in the Washington Post that warned of Americans discriminating against all Koreans because of this kid. Quite frankly, such race-baiting makes them the racists, not us. Their nation is based on the Korean race, ours is based on principles of freedom. When the Koreans accept other races as citizens as easily as we accept Koreans, then they’ll have the moral authority to make such accusations.

And also, I haven’t heard of anyone blaming this on Koreans.

To enlarge on your point, this is a soft form of the anti-American propaganda you see everywhere in the world. The reason that opinion is sour on America in some sections of the world is that they are only exposed to a negative spin on every news item involving America.

Academics and scholars are at the top while the military (any military) is at the bottom.

That has traditionally been the case, although an officer in the military is not on the bottom of the totem pole. In any case, Koreans comically used to bemoan the fact to me(it must be something they learn in school) that they have been invaded 900 times in their 5000 year history. I used to think, with your opinion of the military, duh! Japan has a much healthier opinion of the military. To me, Japanese culture was my favorite of China, Korea, and Japan.

Second, on that topic, Korea has a 1700 year old history (history is defined as written records originating within that culture). Yet every Korean believes they have 5000 years of history dating back to a Tangun, and they really believe it. It is a myth perpetuated within the school system. China doesn’t even have 5000 years of history.

the junior and senior comment has multiple applications from job to family and neighbors. In other words you can be the senior person at work but still junior to your uncle or older neighbor.

That’s true; the only really true form of equality on the Confucian scale is between two friends or classmates who are the exact same age.

This is why I think it is so hard for Korea to interact with the United States. We have a concept of equality. We can easily say: You have a great country and we’re equal. Koreans cannot do that. That have to either be superior or inferior. They know they received all their technology from us and Japan and that we are defending them. That very much bothers them, hence their needing to prove their superiority through anti-Americanism.

They also have never forgiven Japan. Japan was always considered their “junior” (Chinese culture passed from China to Korea to Japan) and Japan resented this characterization. Koreans will never forgive this “dongsaeng” for having invaded the “hyeong” and not being suitably submissive and loyal.

Once one understands Confucianism, one can understand Koreans. They are the most Confucian country.

januarius on April 18, 2007 at 5:49 PM

Also, keep this in mind. You can look at the comments you posted from the Koreans and find comments even more pathetic on DailyKos or DU by liberals right here in this country. There are stupid people everywhere.

januarius on April 18, 2007 at 5:49 PM

Based on the comment you posted this time, I would agree with you on the gun issue. It wasn’t the same quote that you had posted in the previous comment.

I have to say that I don’t agree with your take on South Korea as a whole though. I’ve spent time in South Korea and my experience was almost 100% positive, although I have to admit that things might have changed since then. Yes, there is some anti-American trash in their media, but looking at our own media, I’m not even sure it’s worse than the crap NBC puts out, or for that matter, what our public schools are currently teaching our own children. Also, you mention the “distrust of outsiders”, but I’d note that you and I have plenty of distrust of outsiders as well. I don’t see that as anything unusual.

Either way, I do agree with you regarding the comments you posted.

While in Korea, I got a second B.A. in Asian Studies from University of Maryland. However, there is a pervasive anti-Americanism that can be very frustrating. It stems from the Confucian distrust of “outsiders” and the lack of equality in Confucianism. You can only be someone’s “senior” or “junior.” There is little equality.
januarius on April 18, 2007 at 5:49 PM

You seem to have forgotten that the “equality” you mention has more to do with the “pecking order” based on one’s station in life per Confucian thought. Academics and scholars are at the top while the military (any military) is at the bottom. I think you need to reread your textbooks. the junior and senior comment has multiple applications from job to family and neighbors. In other words you can be the senior person at work but still junior to your uncle or older neighbor.
Like Germany and France, the generation that immediately benefited from the American support and GIs is slowly dying off and the younger generation doesn’t feel the loyalty/obligation of their fathers and mothers. Just as the current generation of Iraqis will tend to be favorable towards Americans, the next generation won’t understand the reasons from the gut. Natural progression to be expected.

Considering your countless posts about the Koreans and Muslims while bemoaning the Korean distrust of outsiders is almost too laughable to comment on.

Look at the headline at the Korea Herald. They are doing the same thing. http://www.koreaherald.co.kr

Concerned that the recent massacre by a South Korean student in Virginia, the United States, would spark prejudice or confrontation against South Koreans, the Seoul government held emergency meetings yesterday to discuss any necessary measures. Leaders from all political groups in South Korea also expressed their condolences to the victims and their families after the deadliest shooting in the history of the United States. A 23-year-old South Korean student …

This is fully in line with the pervasive anti-Americanism there. Have you lived in South Korea or experienced it? Have you seen doormats of American flags in front of numerous college buildings on their campuses for them to spit and wipe their feet on? I think you just have to observe it firsthand.

Their worry about Koreans in the U.S. suddenly being the target of hate is completely ignorant and a psychological form of projection. It is also insulting, considering their reaction in 2002 to the two GI’s who accidentally ran over two Korean schoolchildren. There were massive demonstrations, flag burnings, demands for President Bush to personally apologize, a popular video of S.E.S. killing Americans, etc. Of course, this did not get much airtime in the MSM, so many Americans are in complete ignorance of these events. I was there in 2002.

Here is the quote about guns causing the shooting:

Office worker Kim Sun-kuk, 32, said that the core of the incident was not Cho being a Korean but U.S. laws which allow individuals to possess guns.

“The evidence shows that Cho did this for personal reasons, because he had broken up with his girlfriend, not because of any ethnicity issues,” he said. “It happened because he had access to a gun. We should not confuse the core of the issue.”

In other words, the gun and our laws caused the shooting, not Cho Seung-hui. It is very much a group culture in Korea–one nation, one blood, one race–so you are going to get this denial that an individual Korean (and by Confucian implication the Korean nation) was to blame. There will be denial, but it is still irritating.

I don’t hate Korea at all. I have many Korean friends still over there, and they are a wonderful people as a whole. While in Korea, I got a second B.A. in Asian Studies from University of Maryland. However, there is a pervasive anti-Americanism that can be very frustrating. It stems from the Confucian distrust of “outsiders” and the lack of equality in Confucianism. You can only be someone’s “senior” or “junior.” There is little equality. They got all their technology from us and Japan and were extremely poor until the last 30 or so years. In order to boost their national self-image, they somehow have to prove that they are superior to America. They do this by anti-Americanism. Also, the American presence bothers them, though they know we need to be there. It is a very complicated love-hate relationship.

But it doesn’t excuse their anti-Americanism: http://www.usinkorea.org

This is interesting.

What is your explanation for the striking difference in temperament between the guy pictured in the Indonesian photo and the temperament described by the shooters room-mates and documented by the photos of him?

Tantor on April 18, 2007 at 5:12 PM

I have to agree. Not only does this kid look like a fun-loving normal guy … he also doesn’t look anything like the killer, other than being Asian of course. At least, that’s my opinion.

As for why she took the photo down? Duh. If I had family photos on the internet and the entire world was bombarding me with accusations such as this … I’d take it down too, and so would everyone on this board.

Maybe the reason that the Indonesian woman took down the photo was that she did not want to be falsely associated with mass murder.

But interesting she took down the picture and interesting that the Korean in the Indonesian woman’s picture would take the name Ismail.

Of course, no one in the MSM is asking about “Ismail’s ax.” That wouldn’t be politically correct! Good post at Atlas Shrugs http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/04/ismail_ax.html about this complete lack of interest in the MSM.

I have read it and I posted my rebuttal of it, a rebuttal you largely dodge. Why? What is your evidence that the shooter ever went to Indonesia? What is your explanation for the striking difference in temperament between the guy pictured in the Indonesian photo and the temperament described by the shooters room-mates and documented by the photos of him?

I have paid very close attention to your ridiculous assertions and am knocking them down with common sense and straightforward questions. You endorsed this link as proof of your foolish argument that somehow the shooter is an Islamic terrorist. Now that you are trying to evade criticism of this farfetched link by claiming its not your link.

januarius: “Second, yes, Kim, Park (Pak), and Lee are very common surnames. Cho/Joe/Jo is not particularly common. Seung-hui is fairly common. But Cho Seung-hui, not really.”

And your evidence that this photo plucked from the Internet is that of the shooter who you evidently claimed travelled to Indonesia is what? Nothing. Squat. It is all speculation and innuendo with you.

If I came up with a photo of an SS prison guard from Auschwitz who was roughly your sex and race and bore your name, would that prove you’re a war criminal?

Your weak speculation is the product of an undisciplined mind. Prove your case. Put up or shut up.

a) Deft use of logic
b) Name is a reference to Tarzan’s best friend, Tantor the Elephant

Thanks to Ace and Allah, I was led to a Washington Post article that explains that the shooter at Virginia Tech used standard capacity magazines during his rampage: The Glock was used in two shootings, first in a dormitory and……

Does the stupidity ever stop here? Your proof that the shooter was an Islamic terrorist is a photo of a Korean kid with the same name taken in Indonesia? First, do you know how many Koreans have the same name? Half of Korea is named Kim and the other half is named Lee. The problem of interrelation is so bad that many Koreans have trouble getting married because the law forbids them from marrying somebody related to them. There are lots of Koreans with the same name.

Second, since when was the Virginia Tech shooter ever in Indonesia?

Third, your photo shows a happy, smiling guy looking into the camera. Everybody who knew the shooter says he never smiled, exuded depression, and never looked anyone in the eye. His room-mates said he only had one expression, that blank expression you see on his ID photo.

Next thin you know, you’ll be claiming this kid shot Jimmy Hoffa.

Tantor on April 18, 2007 at 1:00 PM

Tantor- Did you even look at Debbie Schlussel’s post about Indonesia? It is not my link and my post; she posted it. Please pay closer attention.

Second, yes, Kim, Park (Pak), and Lee are very common surnames. Cho/Joe/Jo is not particularly common. Seung-hui is fairly common. But Cho Seung-hui, not really.

She says at http://www.debbieschlussel.com:

All day long, bloggers and e-mailers sent me to the Flickr photo archive site, where an Indonesian Muslim woman, named Eldarossell, kept pics of “Me & My Family.” One photo of “Ismail”–uploaded in August 2006–looked very much like Cho Seung-Hui and bore an interesting caption further telling us that it’s the same guy. Strangely, since yesterday, that photo has been removed by Miss Eldarossell, though the rest of her photos remain up. Also removed were the many comments posted by visitors to the site noting that her friend (or relative?) “Ismail,” sure looked like Cho Seung-Hui, and was probably him, given the caption she posted.

Too late, though, as many blogs–from our friend, the beautiful Pam at Atlas Shrugs, to the German-French Gudrun Eussner’s Blog–captured the photos and the caption, which I post below. So, the question remains: If Cho Seung-Hui is not “Ismail,” then why would she remove the photo? I think we know the answer.

I don’t think I’ve seen this anywhere else yet. Earlier, Allah had a round-up about Cho’s mental state, including speculation that he was schizophrenic.The Richmond Times-Dispatch has gotten ahold of court records from a run-in with Va. Tech……

When I disagreed with you, you accused me of working for the Washington Post. That is an ad hominem attack, seeking to discredit my argument by questioning my motives. Your grasp of logic is poor, which is why your mind is clogged with stupid conspiracy theories. It also why you never rebut my criticism logically, but by leaping to new lines of nonsense such as speculative scenarios about the Jerusalem Post. This is junk thought.

The fourth reason why this is stupid is that you think Occam’s Razor proves the more complicated explanation than the simplest one.

Tantor

Nothing complicated about it. Creating misperceptions is their specialty.

If the tatoo read “Ismale” and the Jerusalem Post reported it as “Ismail”, wouldn’t you question their motives for the misspelling?

By the way, accusing someone of making an ad hominem attack when they didn’t is an ad hominem attack.

I put those peculiars all on one page simply because they turned up, one after the other, as the previous ones were debunked. I don’t know why the thinnest of threads are being used to look for SJH. As has been noted before, and coined by Chris Rock “what ever happened to crazy?”

The more that comes out, the less likely it is that he is a member of some secret Indonesian assasin squad.

You realize of course by putting all those peculiars on one page just enhances the questionable elements. A thing like the use of the word “Asian” was correct, given the usage of the speaker, so that’s not an issue. Ishmail is spelled a number of different ways, depending on the first language of the user, Arabic itself has many dialects and the English spelling renditions differ to reflect that, but they all refer to Abraham’s firstborn, who became the patriarch of the Arabs.
My point is, it’s not hard to cut out the extraneous details that don’t really matter, and we’re still left with some oddities that need to be fully investigated.

It’s a bit like Nick Berg sharing Moussaoui’s laptop in Oklahoma City. Of all the people? A couple years later, what happens to Nick? No one dares disturb that cowpat, it just sits there on the open plain, slowly decaying.

Killer’s parents hospitalised ‘with shock’
Wednesday Apr 18 13:00 AEST
By ninemsn staff

Sad? I don’t feel sorry for them. They certainly had a role in their son being screwed up in the first place. Hard to believe, at the very least, that they didn’t know he was a fruitcake.

Lehuster on April 18, 2007 at 12:45 PM

I do feel sorry for them. They probably did know he had problems, and tried some things, but did not know how to deal with it. Despite all the talk, back and forth whether he acted with or without outside provocation or not, he was an unusually evil guy. Wouldn’t be surprised that they may have been scared of him.