New VTech thread: Victim’s roommate debunks the jilted lover theory; Update: Roommates say he stalked classmates, had imaginary girlfriend; Update: “Ismail Ak”? “Ismale Ax”?
posted at 7:19 pm on April 17, 2007 by Allahpundit
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The last thread was unwieldy with updates so direct your comments here henceforth. The media’s been speculating for the past two days about a relationship of some sort between Cho and the first victim, Emily Hilscher, but someone already sort of debunked it on Facebook this afternoon (scroll down after you click) and now Hilscher’s best friend, who’d be in a position to know, says it’s nonsense.
They were roommates and best friends and they were planning to meet in their dorm room Monday morning to go to chemistry class together. Emily Hilscher got there first and was killed. Heather Haugh arrived minutes later and became a key figure in the chaos unfolding on the Virginia Tech campus…
In an interview with The Times, Haugh said she knew of no connection between the killer and her roommate, or any reason why Cho Seung-Hui would have launched his deadly rampage on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston Hall.
“I’ve never seen him,” she said. “I don’t know his name. Emily didn’t know him, as far as I know.”
Haugh said that speculation that the killing spree was triggered by a domestic dispute likely stemmed from the fact that Hilscher’s boyfriend [Karl Thornhill] was an avid gun user. She said that when she was first questioned by police, “they asked if her boyfriend had a gun or something.”
I guess that explains who the other “person of interest” was. It’s a completely understandable assumption: a woman had been shot to death and her love interest was known to have a gun fetish, so they busied themselves with him while Cho wandered off. What an awful coincidence.
Plenty more updates to come, I’m sure, but in the meantime chew on this:
Haugh said she and Hilscher typically spent Sunday nights with their boyfriends, but met at their dorm on Monday morning to head to their 9 a.m. chemistry class. Hilscher typically arrived shortly after 7 a.m., while Haugh tended to make it back an hour or so later…
“Maybe he followed her up,” Haugh said, noting that Hilscher would have been arriving at the dorm around the time that Cho is believed to have entered the building.
Was Hilscher a target of opportunity, whom this lunatic seized on when he was out for a stroll looking for someone to kill? Or was he stalking her from afar? It’s got to be the latter, right?
Update: Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, whose pet issue has been gun control since her husband was shot to death in the LIRR massacre, is striking while the iron is hot with the Anti-Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device Act of 2007. Minor footnote: not only is there no evidence that Cho used a large-capacity magazine, there’s actually good reason to believe he didn’t.
Oh, and it turns out he did not use
Update: CNN’s airing an amazing interview on Paula Zahn’s show right now with Cho’s two roommates. The details aren’t online yet, but here’s the gist: he stalked three girls on the floor they lived on, including via instant messages he signed with a question mark; he once told his roommates that when he looked in one girl’s eyes he saw “promiscuity,” shortly after which they sent him to a counseling center on campus for a few nights; then, at some point after he was released, they went out drinking and he opened up to them, telling them he had an imaginary supermodel girlfriend … who called him “Spanky,” and whom he called “Jelly.” Oh, and he also liked to listen to “Shine” by Collective Soul over and over and over.
But other than that, he was completely normal.
Update: Caution urged on gun-control legislation by … Harry Reid?
Update: Another timeline mystery. We were told earlier today that the first shootings happened at around 7:15, whereupon Cho returned to his room to prepare for the assault on Norris Hall. And yet:
Mr. Cho’s room in Harper Hall is located one building away from West Ambler Johnston Hall, the dormitory building where the first shooting occurred about 7:15 a.m. At about 8 a.m., Mr. Aust returned to the room from a class. His roommate was gone, but Mr. Aust noticed something strange on his desk, a battery-powered screwdriver. It was a small thing, but it was one more mystery among many for Mr. Cho’s roommate.
Maybe Cho went to his permanent home, in Centreville, instead? Update: A quick check of Yahoo Maps reveals that Centreville’s on the other side of the state. So much for that theory.
Update: MSNBC has information on 27 of the 32 victims.
Update: Still a reach, but this Freeper’s theory of what “Ismail Ax/Ak” might mean is interesting.
Update: Lots of little scoops in tomorrow’s page one WaPo profile of Cho. How on earth was this time bomb allowed to go on ticking for so long?
Cho (whose full name is pronounced joh sung-wee) appears first to have alarmed the noted Virginia Tech poet Nikki Giovanni in a creative writing class in fall 2005, Giovanni said.
Cho took pictures of fellow students during class and wrote about death, she said in an interview. “Kids write about murder and suicide all the time. But there was something that made all of us pay attention closely. None of us were comfortable with that,” she said.
The students once recited their poems in class. “It was like, ‘What are you trying to say here?’ It was more sinister,” she said.
Days later, seven of Giovanni’s 70 or so students showed up for a class. She asked them why the others didn’t show up and was told that they were afraid of Cho.
“Once I realized my class was scared, I knew I had to do something,” she said.
She approached Cho and told him that he needed to change the type of poems he was writing or drop her class. Giovanni said Cho declined to leave and said, “You can’t make me.”
Meanwhile, in another English class:
“He would keep his headphones on a lot,” she said. “I remember one instance where the teacher had addressed a question to him and he really just stared off into space. He didn’t even recall acknowledging that she was talking to him. We were like, ‘What are you doing?’ The teacher said, ‘Will you please see me after class?’ and he still didn’t even acknowledge her. It was an awkward silence, and then she went back to lecturing.”
His poetry tutor was so frightened of him, she had her assistant eavesdrop on the lessons so that she could call security in case the tutor started to feel threatened and uttered a code word the two of them had agreed upon beforehand.
WaPo says two notes were found in Cho’s room but neither was a suicide note, strictly speaking; they were “manifestos” about the people he hated and who had wronged him, etc. The Post also provides a date on the purchase of the .22: February 9, more than a month before he bought the Glock. Cops had suspected he’d bought the .22 this past weekend, but now it looks like he was planning something for much longer. Oh, and as Bob Owens suspected, it turns out he didn’t use high-capacity (i.e., 30+ round) magazines. Cops say it was 15 for the Glock and 10 for the Walther.
But the most provocative tidbit? WaPo spells the writing on his arm as “Ismale Ax,” not “Ismail Ax.” I think we might have been on a wild goose chase with the other spelling.
Update: Most media outlets are still spelling it “Ismail Ax.”
Update: Here’s an article about what the roommates said on CNN, including the imaginary girlfriend named “Jelly.”
Update: An eyewitness describes the scene in one of the classrooms.
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That has always bugged me too - for two reasons.
The first is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being rich. And, it’s quite likely that, if you are a rich kid, you had no choice in the matter. I suppose you could renounce your parent’s wealth and live on the streets, but that would be silly. There are bad & good rich people just as there are bad & good poor people.
The second reason this bothers me is that I went to an expensive, private University….it was very common to hear the support staff (front desk guards, cafeteria workers, etc) make snarky comments about all the rich kids. Certainly, some of the kids were from wealthy families. However, most of the kids I met were from backgrounds similar to mine. My father works in a GM factory & my mother was a stay-at-home mom. I busted my butt to get scholarships and took out an enormous amount of loans to cover the rest of my tuition. I’ll be repaying it for years to come. To assume people are ‘rich’ and ‘privileged’ just because they go to a particular school is ignorant.
JadeNYU on April 17, 2007 at 7:28 PM
Insanity.
Nonfactor on April 17, 2007 at 7:28 PM
Great work AP… I haven’t been listening closely to Shep because frankly he makes me want to turn my TV off. He and Geraldo and their sensationalism and irresponsible speculation and dramatic talk is infuriating.
Anyway, my point was that I may just have missed them talking about it, but I haven’t heard any of this information yet.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 7:28 PM
My money’s on “stalker.”
Enrique on April 17, 2007 at 7:30 PM
Everything is speculation. Someone said it well in the previous post: You can’t apply rational explainations to someone’s irrational acts.
Nonfactor on April 17, 2007 at 7:32 PM
MM’s latest
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007327.htm
with help from Jessica McBride
http://www.620wtmj.com/_content/talk/jessicamcbride/index.asp?id=125&entry=36208
Michelle will link you to the audio, but here’s what you need to know:
Screw you Barry.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 7:33 PM
This is the best place for reasponsible, timely updates in this case.
brak on April 17, 2007 at 7:33 PM
There’s speculation, and irresponsible speculation. Like when Shep and Geraldo last night were hyping that unrelated facebook site HOURS after we all knew it was unrelated. Linking to stories that piece together different angles, and potential different angles according to different sources to try to learn what happened and what lead to it is entirely different NF.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 7:35 PM
So much as I figure there isn’t going to be any more breaking news and I’ll be perfectly happy to leave this subject alone and let families mourn and the victims rest in peace.
I will, however, continue to mock the partisanship involved in a grim topic such as this.
Nonfactor on April 17, 2007 at 7:35 PM
Amen
Valiant on April 17, 2007 at 7:39 PM
I hate to speculate on such things, Allah. My first question would be how did he know her? Stalkers usually have at least some tenuous connection to their victims, I think. Was it a random stalking because he saw her on the quad once and thought she was cute? Were they in the same class once?
On the other hand, if it was truly random and a crime of opportunity, why follow someone all the way to the 4th floor. Surely there were easier targets available, even at that early hour.
I’m really not sure what bothers me more (as the parent of 3 daughters), the thought that it may have been stalking by a distant, unknown predator, or that it truly was a random act. Either way, my job as a parent just got more interesting.
SailorDave on April 17, 2007 at 7:40 PM
So those of us who are avid shooters have a “fetish” now?
I did not have sex with that pistol, Kimber Polymer. Or the Ruger Super Redhawk. Or the Taurus PT-99. Or the Ruger M77. Or the Mossberg 500. Or the STG-58. Or the…
Hollowpoint on April 17, 2007 at 7:41 PM
So much as you figure? I guess you don’t “figure” much, because this information is “breaking”, and AP has been bringing u “breaking” developments all day.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 7:44 PM
Oh magnificent and wonderful Allah,
We have not had such pertinent information since the prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him.
Thanks for the effort.A+
Rustyw on April 17, 2007 at 7:45 PM
Kind of reminds me of your past election coverage….
Rustyw on April 17, 2007 at 7:46 PM
And by the way NonFactor, if you want to mock the partisanship… why aren’t you at some Obama supporting blog blasting his comments (seen and audio linked to over at Malkin’s site)
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 7:47 PM
So lets take a look at this monster.
He turns in writings that were so bizarre the professor reccomended he seek counseling. He set a dorm fire. He was stalking women. All the signs of a disturbed personality and once again no one thinks that this guy was a time bomb ready to explode.
robo on April 17, 2007 at 7:47 PM
Just as I turned on the TV, there was something on there about him signing his letter “Ishmial” but then they went to commercial and I missed it. Did anybody catch that?
Tony737 on April 17, 2007 at 7:48 PM
As I mentioned in my tip email regarding the introduction of HR1859, the bill is quite vague.
And just what exactly is a “Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device”? I couldn’t find an exact definition for that or an assault weapon either. And now that I think about it, it doesn’t even address pistols as was used in the VT shooting, rather it only targets the EVIL ASSAULT WEAPONS! Yeah, I know the legal definition of a hi-cap mag is 10rnds, and if the bill is passed with “large capacity” and no numerical description, there is nothing stopping DOJ or BATFE from interpreting “large” as any random number that’s larger than one.
-Joel
ViperPilot
ViperPilot on April 17, 2007 at 7:48 PM
Okay did anybody else read Jessica McBride and translate it to Jesse McBeth The Liars Club lifteime member?
LakeRuins on April 17, 2007 at 7:48 PM
Posted by: Mary Katharine Ham at 6:15 PM
Olbermann’s already implicating Bush and gun-rights advocates for the massacre.
Both ABC and Olby are saying that the high-capacity 9mm magazines the shooter was using would not have been available had the Assault Weapons Ban not expired.
Bob Owens, who works in a gun store, says this is a big fat lie:
The Ross entry states that high-capacity magazines “became widelyavailable for sale when Congress failed to renew a law that bannedassault weapons.” This is a patently false statement, containing notruth at all.
High-capacity magazines have been around for more than half a century, and the sale of high-capacity magazines was not impacted whatsoeverby the 1994 Crime Bill. These magazines were freely and commerciallyavailable, both in retail stores and online, without interruption, forthe 10-year life of the ban, the decades preceding it, and afterward.
Ross implies that high-capacity magazines are now for sale on Websites as a result of the ban expiring. Again, this is a deceptive,inaccurate statement.
The fact of the matter is that high-capacity magazines were alwaysavailable for purchase (as noted above) both online, and in retailstores, without interruption.
Rustyw on April 17, 2007 at 7:50 PM
Admit it, Hollowpoint - you DID have s-e-x with them.
Editor on April 17, 2007 at 7:50 PM
This has been out for hours.. discussed heavily in earlier thread. He signed it Ismail Ax.
Interesting, yet speculation wouldn’t be prudent. But for those wondering Ishmael (just different spelling) is essentially the father of Islam. He was Abraham’s son with his servent. Basically Ishmael is to Islam what Isaac was to Judaism. Start reading Genesis 16 and you’ll know.
Again, to jump to any conclusion based on this wouldn’t be right, but that’s the gist, and I am definitely keeping it in the back of my mind.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 7:54 PM
Actually, it sounds like people were worried he’d explode… but what could they do? He was an adult, and it’s not a crime to be a quiet, anti-social loner with violent fantasies so there’s really nothing the police could do. Sadly, being armed in self-defense wasn’t a legal option for his classmates or professors.
Hollowpoint on April 17, 2007 at 7:56 PM
Well, oral doesn’t count.
Hollowpoint on April 17, 2007 at 7:57 PM
Gotta love the cryptic call-sign. It makes this turd seem deep… kinda like the Zodiac Killer without the press contacts or restraint.
There is another possibility for the Ismail reference. Isn’t that in the opening lines of Moby Dick (with a possibly different spelling)?
SailorDave on April 17, 2007 at 8:00 PM
Oh crap, O’Reilly following a great “Talking Points Memo” with a Geraldo segment.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 8:04 PM
Allah…to clarify high capacity depends on who you talk to. The Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 banned the manufacture of magazines holding greater than 10 rounds. Sale of pre-existing magazines were not impacted. According to the Glock website, the 19 currently accepts 15 (standard) 17, 19, and 33 round magazines. I believe the 33 round magazine is restricted to police only.
Catseye on April 17, 2007 at 8:05 PM
You got me thinking with your ‘deep’ comment. I wondered, “What if he was deep & smart?” So I plugged ismail ax into an anagram program and got (among other things):
Alias Mix
Salami XI (or Salami IX)
Mail Axis
I Am Al Six
So, I’m thinking that he was not deep or smart. Just disturbed.
JadeNYU on April 17, 2007 at 8:10 PM
O’Reilly has been pretty fair on this, except he’s complained that Virginia has lax gun laws, in that it’s very easy to obtain a gun… but oddly enough gun enthusiasts wish they had the gun laws we do up here in arguably the most liberal state in the nation, Vermont
http://www.gunowners.org/vtcarry.htm
We also have one of the lowest crime rates in the nation, but that has less to do with loose gun laws and more to do with one of the lowest minority populations in the country. Call that a racist statement if you want, but that stats don’t lie… As a general rule of thumb you go to the cities with the highest percentage of minorities, especially blacks, and you’ll find the highest gun crime rates.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 8:12 PM
So the Democrats can’t seem to get a military funding bill passed.. but they sure can get legislation going to score political points… The group is disgusting.
Skywise on April 17, 2007 at 8:15 PM
“Ismail” is the anglized Arabic spelling.
There is a story about Ismail and an ax in the Q’uran.
In the story, Ismail was the son of Ibrahim.
Ibrahim made stone figures and as a boy, Ismail would play around the figures his father sculpted, ride on then, etc.
One day, Ismail saw his father’s carvings in the temple and saw men bowing to them and offereing them food and drink.
Ismail thought it ridiculous that these men were doing this with “toys”.
His father explained to him that the statues he carved were gods.
Ismail didn’t buy it.
Finally one day Ismail watched the statues in the temple, waiting for them to eat the offered food, drink the offered drink.
When they didn’t, he destroyed the idols using an ax.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ibrahim.htm
Anybody else ready to AX the question?
.
The Machine on April 17, 2007 at 8:16 PM
High capacity?
It would have been possible for someone to do the same nasty deed with a six-shot double action revolver and 30 speedloaders in his vest.
Really.
Google Jerry Miculek.
.
The Machine on April 17, 2007 at 8:20 PM
Look back at the previous thread. People have been AXING the question all day. I don’t think much of it.
tommy1 on April 17, 2007 at 8:20 PM
Doesn’t that say that Ibrahim actually destroyed the idols?
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 8:20 PM
Extended magazines for pistols are junk anyway, They decrease the reliability of the weapon. The only ones I ever tried that didn’t cause ‘failure to feed’ malfunctions were only 1, 2 or 3 round extensions. Better to use standard magazines and learn how to swap ‘em fast.
LegendHasIt on April 17, 2007 at 8:21 PM
Hilscher looks like a pretty girl. Unfortunately, I would have to guess the latter also.
I still can’t believe the school didn’t go on lock-down if the boyfriend wasn’t admitting to anything. Why take the chance? In the absence of witnesses, you are just going to assume you’ve got the right guy because he happens to be into firearms? Unbelievably foolish.
tommy1 on April 17, 2007 at 8:24 PM
Busy week! some things possibly lost-and some that should go away.
Go away: Tehran Rosie, Olberdouche, Pelosi, Geraldo, Shep.. ( this list would be tooo long.)
Things the left is trying to destroy;
First Amendment
Second Amendment
And something that self destructed;
B. Hussein Obama (that’s a good thing)
feel free to add on.
shooter on April 17, 2007 at 8:24 PM
Admittedly, I’m not well-versed on Anglicizations of Arabic names; however, Ishmael is also a Bible name and I’ve always seen it rendered in English as Ishmael.
Are there instances I don’t know of where the name is written as “Ismail” or is it simply that “Ishmael” and “Ismail” are close enough close enough that we can count it if we are so inclined?
JadeNYU on April 17, 2007 at 8:24 PM
Ishmael is only a “biblical name” in the sense that he was Abraham’s son he had with his servant, and the originator of Islam (were you not there when we went over all of this earlier?). The Ishmael from the Koran and the Bible are the same person.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 8:29 PM
Actually, this case could be held up as a prime example of the utter ineffectiveness of previous gun control legislation. Neither the waiting period nor the lack of high-capacity magazines made any difference. Meanwhile, in a neighboring state, we have an example of how different things might have been if some of the law-abiding students had quick access to firearms.
Of course, that other campus attack would not have ever happened without the intervention of a liberal do-gooder to begin with.
tommy1 on April 17, 2007 at 8:30 PM
and by the way JadeNYU, as you probably know, most Islamic names often have many different spellings (for whatever reason).. and Ismail is just another spelling of Ishmael (as far as I can tell)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail
Disclaimer: Before anyone accuses me of trying to imply some Islamic motive to Cho, read my repeated caution here
(I just want to preempt anyone who might want to just read the most recent comment)
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 8:33 PM
The Thomas link appears to be broken.
The bill is H.R. 1859 no text as of yet.
Here is the summary…
H.R.1859
Title: To reinstate the prohibition on the possession or transfer of large capacity ammunition feeding devices, and to strengthen that prohibition.
Sponsor: Rep McCarthy, Carolyn [NY-4] (introduced 4/16/2007) Cosponsors (None)
Latest Major Action: 4/16/2007 Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary.
F15Mech on April 17, 2007 at 8:35 PM
Well, I’m going to go ahead and say that’s the most vile thing I’ve read today. Blaming the guy who got killed because he’s a liberal?
You have huge “Malkin’s” my friend.
SouthernDem on April 17, 2007 at 8:36 PM
I think Rep. Carolyn McCarthy has had that act written up for awhile now. She may be just renewing it, but I’ve definitely heard of it before.
Enoxo on April 17, 2007 at 8:38 PM
Of Ishmael:
Genesis 16:
11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
“You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael, [a]
for the LORD has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward [b] all his brothers.”
Ishamael was not ever going to be the ‘inheritor’ or of the true blood line. Islam- mo, tried to change this most basic element 1400 years ago.
shooter on April 17, 2007 at 8:39 PM
Oh, get real. I didn’t blame the dean for the shooting. Ultimate responsibility rests upon the shooter, of course. I simply acknowledged reality: it would not have happened if he had not made an exception for this student who clearly was not adjusting to life at the university and was described in very negative terms by other students. The dean’s decision was a necessary, but not sufficient, cause for the shooting. And by the way, he wasn’t the only one killed: a professor and a student who had nothing to do with this dean’s decision lost their lives also. The point of the article is that you cannot assume that a non-white, non-western student isn’t coping at a university simply because of some liberal bogeyman like “institutionalized racism.”
tommy1 on April 17, 2007 at 8:48 PM
I heard Olberman just said the VT massacre did not have to happen if Bush and the e-e-e-e-e-e-evil Repubilcan Congress had kept the ban on all rock groups from the 90s from being purchased on iTunes. A ban that expired in more than two years ago.
Google it!
ScottMcC on April 17, 2007 at 8:51 PM
What is the MSM saying about the Ismail (the Arabic way of spelling Ishmael) message written on the South Korean killer’s arm? My guess: They won’t pursue it.
I saw some posters on the other string giving Gregor grief about one of his comments about Islam. Gregor is correct. I’m sure you won’t see much grieving in Islamic newspapers. The Saudi student who strangely videotaped the outside of the building while the shots were being fired was on CNN capitalizing on the propaganda value by equating the massacre with the way Palestinians are treated by Israelis. So, frankly, Gregor is correct. I generally like BadApple and SouthernGent’s comments, but definitely go read The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam.
As for my comments on the anti-Americanism in Korea, have those like BadApple and SouthernGent actually lived in Korea? I have and this guy have: http://www.usinkorea.org Another commenter who actually served in Korea agreed my assessment. So what are BadApple and SouthernGent basing their opinions upon? I now don’t think Cho was too influenced by it having grown up mostly in Fairfax County, but South Korea is hardly a staunch (if you get most of your information from the MSM you might think so.)
Check out this very interesting (and very anti-American) website on Islam in Korea. There is no excuse for post 9/11 ignorance.
http://www.islamkorea.com/english/
Very intriguing! 47 Korean students are studying shariah law in Muslim countries right now and Islam is the fastest growing religion in South Korea. I wonder how many of those will come to the U.S.
http://www.islamkorea.com/english/articlean.html
januarius on April 17, 2007 at 8:52 PM
ScottMcC,
You you intiate and argument you should be the one to post the references. Just sayin.
Egfrow on April 17, 2007 at 8:54 PM
That doesn’t sound all that crazy too me… Am I the only one who can see that in certain girls? How about people who are shady individuals? Can’t you sometimes see it, even though they “look” just like everyone else.
This sounds like something one would say as a joke or something. I’m obviously not calling them liars or saying they didn’t get his joke, I’m just shocked at how crazy this guy was if he indeed had this imaginary girlfriend and if he actually told them this.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 8:55 PM
I was there. My point wasn’t to say that this guy could be a big fan of the Bible. My point was that it’s a name that anyone familiar with the Bible is likely to be familiar with and the only spelling I’ve ever seen of it is “Ishmael”.
However, your link clears up the fact that Ismail is an accepted rendering of “Ishmael” which was what I was asking.
JadeNYU on April 17, 2007 at 8:56 PM
Thank you guys, and no, I didn’t see the Ishmail Ax thing on the other thread … because it had over 600 comments and if I open it then I hafta read ‘em … almost like O.C.D. so I just didn’t bother opening it.
Tony737 on April 17, 2007 at 8:58 PM
Except that Ishmael isn’t someone looked highly upon by fans of the Bible, especially to anyone who recognizes him as the defacto “father” of Islam.
Glad to be of service.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 8:59 PM
Somebody needs to ask the question: “How many VA concealed hangun licensees (CHL) were either victims or survivors of this massacre. VTech is a “gun free victim disamament zone.” How many people either in the buildings or in the classrooms had to leave their guns in their cars, like Sue Gratzia (sp?) had to do when she watched her parents get gunned down at Lubby’s Cafe in TX?
I hope somebody is looking into this because THIS would crucify the university if a legal CHL was deprived of their weapon and was injured as a result. Remember, they were jumping with joy when the legislature killed a premption bill.
As Michelle pointed out, a similar rampage was STOPPED COLD at a lawschool when two students ran out, got their guns, and confronted the perp.
As we can see, the media is going gangbusters to use this to pass more gun control. An Ms. McCarthy is a gun and gun owner hater.
georgej on April 17, 2007 at 9:00 PM
Tony, just a tip (that I use all the time, and comes in handy finding replies to me on HA threads, etc.) is to either click Edit>Find (or just hit Ctrl F on the keyboard) and then search a word or phrase.
To catch up on the whole Ismail thing, you can run a “find” one Ismail on this thread
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/17/breaking-abc-news-ids-gunman-as-seung-hui-cho/
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 9:01 PM
RightWining,
Based on his willingness to slaugher people like sheep, He was projecting his fears onto his victims whom he never saw as human. He viewed them not as individuals but as a collective. The collective was viewed as his ememy.
Since he was not basing his views on stable reasoning, he used his feelings and will to project this reality onto everyone around him. “Promicuity” to him could have been “care free” or “indifference” to someone who saw her as an individual.
Egfrow on April 17, 2007 at 9:02 PM
True. But I stand by my statement that he’s in there and most people familiar with the Bible would know the name. I never said they had “Happy Ishmael Day” celebrations. :)
JadeNYU on April 17, 2007 at 9:02 PM
Cho is reprentative of the Diesease of Liberalism taking over the MSM and the nation as a whole.
Egfrow on April 17, 2007 at 9:03 PM
Got the names slightly mixed up in my comment above. My comments were directed to Bad
AppleCandy and SouthernGentDem.januarius on April 17, 2007 at 9:03 PM
Do we know if Cho’ parents were Korean or was he taken in by a family. Who the hell raised this whack job?
Egfrow on April 17, 2007 at 9:05 PM
The link was vicious my friend. It essentially painted this professor as textbook liberal who ignored the warning signs of a deranged lunatic. I remember the incident, the guy was just trying to give the student a second chance.
I wouldn’t want you to confuse me with SouthernGent, he may get offended.
I’ve have been to Korea (certainly not to the extent you have) and have seen the demonstrations against our military first hand (in Daegu as well). I have relatives there and my father-in-law lived there for many years. My brother-in-law lives there still by choice. He has experienced racism, especially considering he married a Korean.
I know of the anti-American sentiment in the youth of SK, but I don’t believe it borders on the incitement to murder.
What I object to the most is any politicization of this at the onset. I understand everyone is looking for reasons here and I don’t fault you for that.
SouthernDem on April 17, 2007 at 9:05 PM
While everyone is falling all over themselves to participate in 500+ comment threads that speculate about the killer’s psychological profile, and/or argue endlessly over the politics of gun control (much to the dismay of some who were directly affected by the tragedy), is anybody (a-n-y-b-o-d-y) out there (besides me, that is) scared witless and/or wondering what to do about that which will almost inevitably come next? I am fairly certain that it has already occurred to at least some of you, but no one seems to have the courage to say the word out-loud, viz. “copy-cats”.
CyberCipher on April 17, 2007 at 9:06 PM
Next up on the ban list: Revenge of the Nerds.
Jim Treacher on April 17, 2007 at 9:08 PM
CyberCipher,
Try to overcome your fear and do what rationaly need to be done without letting fear and emotions getting clouding it all up. Get emotional only after your rationality validates and understands.
Egfrow on April 17, 2007 at 9:10 PM
Whether we like to admit it or not, the reality is evil walks on this earth among us.
SPIFF1669 on April 17, 2007 at 9:10 PM
Why did you call me Rightwining? Was this just a (very odd) typo, or are you accusing me of whining about something?
Interesting title for this event… though the same could be said for virtually all school shootings. Columbine, last fall’s Montreal “Vampire freak” (remember him everyone?)
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 9:12 PM
Jim Treacher,
People who are innovative, smart, and steadfast. The ones who created guns, the internet, manned flight, the wheel. The mindless have always wanted to control the mindful. No thought is required to use a whip.
Egfrow on April 17, 2007 at 9:13 PM
Agree with you fully, so long as you mock it coming from all sides.
Entelechy on April 17, 2007 at 9:13 PM
RightWinged,
LOL, sorry! No way man! That’s not what I do. I don’t call people names. Other always call me names instead of using reason.
Egfrow on April 17, 2007 at 9:14 PM
We always hear that, and have it to an extent, but it never amounts to a whole lot. There were a bunch of bomb threats today, etc. But remember the Dawson school shooting in Montreal last year… though his “death toll” was only 1, he shot nearly 20, he was just a bad shot. But it wasn’t followed by tons of copy cats. Don’t live in fear man.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 9:14 PM
What you say makes sense. Early on I was speculating because the info at the time stated he had arrived on a visa recently.
Question for anyone:
Does anyone know what exactly Cho said about religion? It’s ironic: We always hear people claim that religion causes violence. It is very much the opposite (except Islam).
januarius on April 17, 2007 at 9:14 PM
Not really, honestly. I think the copy-cats will be mostly in the form of stupid bomb threats and the like.
tommy1 on April 17, 2007 at 9:14 PM
Haha, okay that’s cool. I just read “Rightwining” and was like “hey, WTF did I do to you!?”
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 9:15 PM
I have noticed that these school shootings do seem to occur towards the end of the school year which I would by now those in academia would realize.
Oh what am I thinking they think “An Inconvient Truth” and “Farenheit 911″ are documentaries.
LakeRuins on April 17, 2007 at 9:17 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren’t there a rash of copy-cat school shootings in the late 1990’s in the vicinity of the Columbine massacre? Maybe those incidents didn’t get that much press, since there were not THAT many victims.
CyberCipher on April 17, 2007 at 9:19 PM
I’m less worried about copycats and more worried that this method demonstrated by Cho is the new strategy of Al Qaeda for terrorism.
From https://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2007/04/17/200704170036.asp
januarius on April 17, 2007 at 9:20 PM
And of course wouldn’t you know it, I found a web site that has compiled the data already.
LakeRuins on April 17, 2007 at 9:21 PM
Thanks for the link. Now I am more paranoid than ever.
CyberCipher on April 17, 2007 at 9:24 PM
Obviously wikipedia isn’t the authority on… anything… but I don’t see a rash of anything (according to their list) following Columbine… just one event in Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 9:24 PM
The shooting at Pearl, MS was stopped by an ass’t principal who went and got his gun. The school was also one of those “Gun-Free” Zones. They had signs and everything.
LakeRuins on April 17, 2007 at 9:27 PM
Hey, thanks for the tip “RightWhiner” - Ha! Just kiddin’!
Tony737 on April 17, 2007 at 9:28 PM
That’s an interesting political side note, janarius. As long as Islamists fight America and the West with some apparent success, their brand of Islam will be adopted by those outside of the Muslim world who would also desire our defeat. Perhaps when one’s own society or culture seems either impotent or collaborative, one can comfortably reject it in favor of a fresh start with the hot, radical religion that hates the same folks you do.
shuzilla on April 17, 2007 at 9:29 PM
On Ismail’s Ax:
Take a look at the first comment on the following string, referring to Ismail’s Ax being linked to the Assassins, a breakaway sect of Islam:
http://www.redstate.com/blogs/nathan_nelson/2007/apr/17/call_him_ismails_ax
Now, take a look at the link from the Korea Herald (same day as Cho Seung Hui’s massacre) about JI (Al Qaeda of Asia) moving away from blogs into the direction of the Assassins, assassinating diplomats and infidels.
Is Ismail’s Ax written on Cho Seung-hui’s arm and JI’s new strategy a coincidence?
januarius on April 17, 2007 at 9:31 PM
I was referring to the shootings that occurred just (immediately) prior to Columbine, as seen in the compiliation graciously provided to us by LakeRuins.
CyberCipher on April 17, 2007 at 9:31 PM
Yeah… huh??
Jim Treacher on April 17, 2007 at 9:34 PM
In my post directly above, link about JI’s new strategy similar to the Assassins:
https://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2007/04/17/200704170036.asp
Here we have “Ismail’s ax” written on Cho’s arm referring to the breakaway Muslim sect of the Assassins; JI’s new strategy reported the same day; and a Saudi Arabian student at Tech filming the massacre on his cellphone as a message to the world. Too much a coincidence.
januarius on April 17, 2007 at 9:37 PM
Am I missing something? The only incident remotely close in proximity (time wise) to Columbine was a month later. The others that came before were roughly an entire year earlier.
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 9:37 PM
(further elaboration cybercipher:see specific dates of the events at that other link at the link I gave you, the one before columbine was in May 1998, 11 months earlier)
RightWinged on April 17, 2007 at 9:39 PM
Oops, should have proofread better: Bombs not blogs!
januarius on April 17, 2007 at 9:39 PM
Centreville is about 4 hours from Blacksburg, there’s no way he went home in between shootings
Yossarian on April 17, 2007 at 9:39 PM
I mentioned that on the previous thread here. Actually, they get it backwards at Red State: the Assassins were a branch of Ismaili Shiism, Ismaili Shiism is not a branch of, or synonymous with, the Assassins. Still, I think if this is a reference to that, it most likely comes from the numerous mentions of the assassins in role-playing games and the like rather than Cho converting to what is a relatively uncommon form of Shiism.
tommy1 on April 17, 2007 at 9:41 PM
The Arabic spelling of the word uses a “seen” (I don’t know how to use actual Arabic letters in this post) which has an “s” like sound as opposed to a “sheen” which is, as you might guess, the “shh” sound in Arabic.
TBinSTL on April 17, 2007 at 9:42 PM
See if some posters dogpile on you as they did on me for wondering about that. :)
As an aside, more to chew on, Stratfor had an earlier analysis - before more information had come in. It’s interesting as it is written by security people, experts. Two things: one: the thought that the high mortality indicated a well-trained shooter (some posters already have wondered along those lines earlier) but, the second comment was very interesting, that the dorm shooting might have been a deliberate diversion to get the cops over to one side of the campus while the shooter went to his real target. Since that analysis, more information has come in, but seems only to have muddled any attempts to figure out why the dorm shooting happened. It, so far, makes less sense the more info comes out. That may change, but it’s odd.
It makes perfect sense if it was a calculated diversion.
Perfectly evil sense, but logical, especially given the preplanning that went into the engineering building assault - the extra clips, chaining the doors, for example? That was definitely not spur of the moment.
It’s not something an amateur would think of, but it is fascinating that’s how a security/terror analyst interprets such things.
One could perhaps spend some time researching if the date and time have any historical significance.
naliaka on April 17, 2007 at 9:46 PM
Naliaka- And take a look at the following about the Saudi Tech student who just so happened to be right at the building shooting footage of the terrorist act by Cho Seung-hui. Weirder and weirder.
About the Saudi student at Tech, Debbie Schlussel says:
From http://www.debbieschlussel.com/
januarius on April 17, 2007 at 9:53 PM
Again, perhaps Cho’s bomb threat was meant to get students out of Norris and into the open for “picking off”, which is why he went unaccounted for between 8:00 and the shootings. Perhaps after spending some time lying in wait for enough students to congregate outside, the opportunity never materialized and he had to change his tactics. The “peeiking into the classroom” testimony seems to indicate as much. Does anyone know how long until students were let back in to Norris after the bomb threat was made?
I still think door hardware that is always locked on the hallway side is essential in keeping the number of future such victims to a minimum, perhaps even more important than arming professors.
shuzilla on April 17, 2007 at 10:12 PM
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