Heart-ache: Prayer arrows in Dutch jail point away from Mecca

posted at 4:58 pm on April 14, 2007 by Allahpundit

Your quote of the day:

“This is a really gigantic, stupid blunder,” a police spokesman told the De Telegraaf.

I’ll toss this at you, too, since it’s sort of the flip side of the Dutch situation. Smells like an egregious First Amendment violation to me, but I have a feeling some commenters here might have trouble picking up the scent.

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So all this time those prisoners have been mooning mecca 5 times a day?

techno_barbarian on April 14, 2007 at 5:04 PM

So all this time those prisoners have been mooning mecca 5 times a day?

techno_barbarian on April 14, 2007 at 5:04 PM

funny! Wish I would have said that. Boo Freakin Hoo!! To quote Rachael In the big scheme of things it really doesn’t matter. Get over it already.

ChrisIansNana on April 14, 2007 at 5:08 PM

I wonder what the ratio of muslim prisoners are in Dutch jails?
My guess, probably a lot, and for practicing islamic peace rituals no doubt. Straight out of the quran, so it’s gatta be gospel.

Kini on April 14, 2007 at 5:08 PM

Any Muslim inmate who wants a special meal is given a kosher meal…

Oops.

RedWinged Blackbird on April 14, 2007 at 5:14 PM

I’ll toss this at you, too, since it’s sort of the flip side of the Dutch situation. Smells like an egregious First Amendment violation to me, but I have a feeling some commenters here might have trouble picking up the scent.

You think the chaplain is violating the prisoners’ free expression? Or is this a violation of separation of church and state on the part of the chaplain? Or both?

Or is it this?

The Muslim inmates said the misinformation in the pamphlets was compounded by the fact that there were drawings of Muhammad.

“First and foremost, you’re never going to see a picture of the prophet … you’re not going to, period,” said Kareem Thomas, 28, of Newark, N.J.

In any case, it’s more than a little disturbing to hear about how Muslims in penitentiaries have this much power to frame the debate about freedom of religion in the media. Christian prayer is banned from schools, but Muslims get special attention in prisons? Religious oppression indeed.

spmat on April 14, 2007 at 5:18 PM

!hoD

Mazztek on April 14, 2007 at 5:19 PM

Or is this a violation of separation of church and state on the part of the chaplain?

It’s an Establishment Clause violation. She’s a state actor and she’s advocating on behalf of one religion.

Allahpundit on April 14, 2007 at 5:19 PM

stupid question… since the earth is relatively sphere like, if you drew a line along the earth in the direction it was pointing, then eventually it would in fact point to mecca, just taking the long way around?

Arguably back in the 7th century this wasn’t a problem since the earth was flat, but does this not cause issues now that the world has been discovered to be round, since if you are on a line to mecca so is your ass?

Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on April 14, 2007 at 5:20 PM

I can’t decide which passage from that second story I like better.

Is it this one:

The Muslim inmates said the misinformation in the pamphlets was compounded by the fact that there were drawings of Muhammad.

“First and foremost, you’re never going to see a picture of the prophet … you’re not going to, period,” said Kareem Thomas, 28, of Newark, N.J.

Drawings or other images of Allah or Muhammad are prohibited in Islam.

or this one:

Dorian Epps, 43, of Spring Valley said he and other inmates have sought psychological counseling because of the offensiveness of the booklets and the resulting anti-Islam reaction from the inmates in the jail’s population.

dead-duck on April 14, 2007 at 5:22 PM

Smells like an egregious First Amendment violation to me, but I have a feeling some commenters here might have trouble picking up the scent.

Seems like a violation to me as well.

Only thing I can think is that the prison could make the argument that certain rights are suspended at the prison door (which is definitely true for prisoners) and then say that it extends to people that come to visit prisoners as well. If the case can be made that the necessity of keeping peace at the prison trumps the necessity of letting visitors to the prison practice free speech and free exercise of religion, then, perhaps they’ll get a pass.

However, the fact that one of the core beliefs of Christianity (and, pretty much any religion I’ve come across) is that it is the one true religion, then, of necessity, a part of that religious belief is that other religions are false. If you tell a chaplain that she can preach Christianity but not preach that other religions are false, you are, in essence, telling her that she (and the inmates she teaches) are free to practice Christianity, but, only a form of Christianity that has been sanctioned by the state and not the one they choose.

If, they are allowed to do that in the prison, then, it seems that they should be allowed to do that in the prison to any of the religions present. In which case, Wahabbi clerics should be the first to go. And, the state can choose to have their ‘prayer arrows’ point whichever direction they please – after all, in ‘state-sanctioned Islam, we prayer that-a-way!’

JadeNYU on April 14, 2007 at 5:28 PM

I am so sick of the endless victimhood. Not just from incarcerated islamists. But from anyone.

Get over it. Grow up. Move on.

The world and those in it don’t owe you a damn thing.

techno_barbarian on April 14, 2007 at 5:29 PM

It’s an Establishment Clause violation. She’s a state actor and she’s advocating on behalf of one religion.

Allahpundit on April 14, 2007 at 5:19 PM

O.K. Looks like I totally missed your point. I guess I am one of the people that didn’t catch the scent. :)

One question though – a quick Google search of “chaplain” and “prison chaplain” only returned sources about Christianity. Is a prison chaplain supposed to be a generic ‘faith’ leader for religious prisoners, or is a specificly Christian position?

While we can argue whether or not the state should provide chaplains at all (for any religion), if the position is a Christian position, then, it doesn’t seem like the state can hire a chaplain and then tell them what kind of Christianity to preach. They could certainly look for a chaplain that preaches a Christianity they prefer, but, it seems problematic if they (as the state) want to determine what bits & pieces of Christianity are allowed to be taught at all.

JadeNYU on April 14, 2007 at 5:35 PM

Here are the two tracts the guy is holding in the picture. Plus a third one on Islam.
1

2

and 3

Gwillie on April 14, 2007 at 5:40 PM

dead-duck on April 14, 2007 at 5:22 PM

This was personally my favorite line from the article.

All religions have their good and bad elements, said inmate Cesar Savinon, 20, of Haverstraw. But Islam doesn’t compel belief, he and others said.

Does it count as compulsion if they give you a choice – Convert or Die? Afterall, you could choose death if you want to….so….I dunno. I guess there’s no compulsion.

JadeNYU on April 14, 2007 at 5:43 PM

Allah. The only 1st Amendment issue I can detect here is the fact that there’s a chaplain on a county payroll to begin with. Seems like a basic mixing of church and state, if you want to be a strong strict constructionist. Not sure I have a real issue with it, though.

Other than that, I’m not really picking up the scent of what you are alluding to. Care to amplify? Is the state violating her right to religious expression? Hmm. Seems kinda fuzzy to me.

nukemhill on April 14, 2007 at 5:52 PM

Ah. I was right. Sorry for not reading through. I’d written this a while ago, but I didn’t post it until just now.

nukemhill on April 14, 2007 at 5:56 PM

It’s an Establishment Clause violation. She’s a state actor and she’s advocating on behalf of one religion.

Allahpundit on April 14, 2007 at 5:19 PM

Nope, she’s acting to the exclusion of a particular religion. It’s a free exercise violation, if that. For [redacted] sake, she’s a Christian chaplain. Is she supposed to violate her own creed (a violation of her free exercise rights) in order to maintain employment?

spmat on April 14, 2007 at 5:58 PM

Smells like an egregious First Amendment violation to me, but I have a feeling some commenters here might have trouble picking up the scent.

My nose is fine and I do not detect even a whiff of a First Amendment violation. Of course, I also know the first word of that amendment, and the last time I checked, the county jail didn’t report to Congress or any branch of the federal government. It’s not my fault that the “best legal minds” over the course of a century seem to think that every level of government is “Congress”.

Now, it could very well be a state constitution violation since most states do have similar wording that does not restrict the language to the Legislature.

steveegg on April 14, 2007 at 6:09 PM

I feel I am most qualified to address this as I believe in neither the invisible friend of the christians nor the invisible friend of the Muslims.

How can it be a violation of the first ammendment for a Priest/Shaman/Preacher to Prosletize (sic) for their own religion.

A dog has to pee on a fire hydrant and a Priest is going to try to save your soul. Neither can help themselves.

JayHaw Phrenzie on April 14, 2007 at 6:09 PM

The Netherlands is home to 1 million Muslims out of a population of more than 16 million.

Eurabia lives!

It is a mystery for us how this could have possibly happened.”

So, who’s head will be chopped off as retribution for this blasphemy?

thedecider on April 14, 2007 at 6:12 PM

“I think it’s entirely inappropriate for someone in a position of authority in a correctional facility to hand out hate-filled materials that can incite hostility against … inmates of any faith,” Hooper said, “and I would think it (would) be entirely appropriate to remove that person from their position.”

I have to agree with this. I hate Islam, it’s “prophet” Muhammad, and the whole thing, but I wouldn’t stop these people from worshipping the toilet paper if that’s what they wanted to do. Aren’t there plenty of prison ministries around to take care of their religious needs?

thedecider on April 14, 2007 at 6:26 PM

Is the fastest growing religion being cultivated in prisons?

Or having an invisible friend is a bad thing?

Kini on April 14, 2007 at 6:28 PM

It’s an Establishment Clause violation. She’s a state actor and she’s advocating on behalf of one religion.

I think this would refer to precedence and not a literal interpretation of the 1st amendment.

1st Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

There is no reference in the article that Congress established anything. This is one persons act with the problem the person is employed by the government.

Thus a judge would probably refer to precedence of SCOTUS rulings based on ‘The Danbury Letters’.

But then again I fix and design computer networks and am not a learned attorney.

Wade on April 14, 2007 at 6:29 PM

Yes, the fastest growing religion is being cultivated in prisons. Meanwhile, 20th century Constitutional case law is being used to enforce the vacuum necessary for Islam to spread.

Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Burn, burn, burn.

spmat on April 14, 2007 at 6:32 PM

JayHaw Phrenzie on April 14, 2007 at 6:09 PM

Yes, but is it the invisible friend of the Christians or the invisible friends of the Muslims that you disbelieve in?

O.K….it doesn’t entirely fit here, but, your comment reminded me of that joke about Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland. The two groups are fighting and they ask a visitor to decide which God is better. The visitor says, “I don’t believe in God at all.” There is a pause, then, from the back (of course) a woman pipes up, “Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants that ye don’t be believin’ in?”

JadeNYU on April 14, 2007 at 6:33 PM

O.K….it doesn’t entirely fit here, but, your comment reminded me of that joke about Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland. The two groups are fighting and they ask a visitor to decide which God is better. The visitor says, “I don’t believe in God at all.” There is a pause, then, from the back (of course) a woman pipes up, “Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants that ye don’t be believin’ in?”

Another man piped up to the visitor “Why don’t you go to hell for the answer, they believe in God there?”

Wade on April 14, 2007 at 6:37 PM

Smells like an egregious First Amendment violation to me, but I have a feeling some commenters here might have trouble picking up the scent.

If the jail has hired a Chaplain, “an ordained Christian minister,” then to your point, was that not a First Amendment violation? To me, this article is about her efforts to debunk Islam, and the resulting offense of the muslim inmates.

thedecider on April 14, 2007 at 6:49 PM

Chick Publications is extremely anti-Catholic as well as anti- Muslim.

packsoldier on April 14, 2007 at 6:51 PM

Wade on April 14, 2007 at 6:37 PM

LOL. Thank you Wade.

thedecider on April 14, 2007 at 6:51 PM

Aren’t there plenty of prison ministries around to take care of their religious needs?

Jamat al-Fuqra. They specialize in radicalizing prison inmates and arming them when they get out.

RedWinged Blackbird on April 14, 2007 at 7:04 PM

This is like watching the news with a time delay.
There’s more to this story, so look forward to the next installment. I won’t spoil it for you.

Kim Hartveld on April 14, 2007 at 7:29 PM

The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. If you can’t find mecca with this simple second grade formula you are too stupid to worship any god.

It ain’t rocket science!

Booo on April 14, 2007 at 8:28 PM

Heh.

amerpundit on April 14, 2007 at 8:33 PM

Smells like an egregious First Amendment violation to me

Great post Allah, your right on point as usual.

Roark on April 14, 2007 at 9:47 PM

Smells like an egregious First Amendment violation to me
Great post Allah, your right on point as usual.
Roark on April 14, 2007 at 9:47 PM

I’m not so sure. It seems just hiring a chaplain would be a First Amendment violation (establishing a religion). Once you’ve done that, what does it matter what the chaplain does? They’re already there establishing a religion.

thedecider on April 14, 2007 at 9:54 PM

RedWinged Blackbird on April 14, 2007 at 7:04 PM

Sweet! Nice to know we haven’t left anyone out. *sarc*

thedecider on April 14, 2007 at 9:55 PM

stupid question… since the earth is relatively sphere like, if you drew a line along the earth in the direction it was pointing, then eventually it would in fact point to mecca, just taking the long way around?

Thank goodness! I’m not alone in having that as my first thought.

JinxMcHue on April 14, 2007 at 11:20 PM

Either way, just think of it as the long way to Mecca…the scenic route around the globe.

JetBoy on April 14, 2007 at 11:24 PM

Yes, the fastest growing religion is being cultivated in prisons. Meanwhile, 20th century Constitutional case law is being used to enforce the vacuum necessary for Islam to spread.

Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Burn, burn, burn.

spmat on April 14, 2007 at 6:32 PM
I agree one hundred percent. Where is the left on these matters. I have heard of some jails prohibiting Bibles. The One true Christian God is being systematically removed from the U.S. while Islam is allowed to encroach into our society.

sonnyspats1 on April 15, 2007 at 12:34 AM

I suppose the error came from trying to pretend this was not an intentional sop to the Religion of Peace and putting “compass marks” rather than just an arrow pointing east. Put compass marks on a ceiling starting with North and South at 12 and 6, and now East goes to the 9 o’clock position rather than the 3 o’clock because it’s on a ceiling and it’s a compass, not a clock. Easy mistake to make.

On the other hand, how accurately do you want prisoners to know their surroundings? I mean, this isn’t like drawing them a map of the sewers from underneath the jail to their home neighborhood, but where is the line in accommodation before you point out that someone is, in fact, a prisoner? Take the Kosher meals mentioned by RWB (I don’t see it in the linked story); fine with me, because I’m all for reasonable religious accommodations, but to me that ends with “I won’t eat ham” rather than at “I want lamb killed while the name of my moon demon is chanted.”

raybury on April 15, 2007 at 1:37 AM

They used to pray pointed towards the Temple Mount. So. If it is so easily altered to point to mecca, really who cares?

Also I am sick of people saying the “Koran” is a book of peace. If you mean peace as in declare war on all “non-believers” and “convert or die, or live in subjugation as second-class citizens until you convert, or we kill you” then yeah, it is a religion of peace.

No one claims the Bible is a book of peaceful religious teachings, it is pretty darned violent, and yet we don’t have Baptists walking onto busses blowing themselves up in the name of their religion.

Go figure.

Neo on April 15, 2007 at 9:35 AM

I’m not so sure. It seems just hiring a chaplain would be a First Amendment violation (establishing a religion). Once you’ve done that, what does it matter what the chaplain does? They’re already there establishing a religion.

thedecider on April 14, 2007 at 9:54 PM

Unless you make them practice a certain religion you have not established a certain religion. We shouldn’t even hear about any of this crap.
Don’t give these idiots a stage.

Gooch on April 16, 2007 at 12:41 PM