UK humiliation in Iran: Kaus asks, I answer Updated with word from one of the captives held for 444 days

posted at 3:20 pm on April 8, 2007 by Bryan

Via InstaPundit, we hear from Mickey Kaus:

Hawks for Humiliation: Am I missing something? Why exactly was the resolution of the latest Iran hostage crisis a “success” for Iran and a “humiliation” for Britain, as the hawkish Charles Krauthammer argues (and Geoffrey Wheatcroft insinuates but doesn’t quite come out and say in his own voice, as opposed to John Bolton’s)? The hostages were released in a one-day propaganda stunt, maybe in exchange for the release of an Iranian we were holding and Iranian visitation rights for some others. But the Iranians were also looking at an awful lot of aircraft carriers steaming around their neighborhood. Didn’t they blink? If that’s humiliation, it’s not far from what a U.S.-U.K. victory in the crisis would look like.

The “humiliation” take on the hostage crisis doesn’t come from a desire to fight or invade Iran. Or at least, that’s not where it’s coming from in my own take on the incident. I would rather several things be tried with Iran first before we get to military confrontation, though the credible threat of our bringing force to bear should always be in the back of the mullahs’ minds. With two carriers currently in the Gulf and a third on its way to relieve one of them, I’m sure the threat of US force is credible enough.

But as to the humiliation, imho the UK was humiliated, first, because the fairly pathetic Iranian navy managed to capture members of Britain’s senior service while they were in Iraqi waters, and without firing a shot, because the British Rules of Engagement apparently don’t allow for proactive self-defense. The UK was humiliated second in its sailors’ and Marines’ apparent haste to offer up confessions and apologies to their captors. The third humiliation came at the end of the standoff, when the sailors and Marines gave Mahmoud a big thumbs up on their way out. Throw in the headscarf, the partying, the goodie bags etc while we’re at it. Iran also got to distract the world from the continuing standoff over its nuclear weapons program for a while, and may have won access to its officers currently held by the US in Iraq.

And then there’s the story that just broke today: The British hostages have been allowed to sell their stories to the media. Nice. The old British stiff upper lip has been replaced with a routing address. (h/t dorkafork)

We’ve learned from the sailors and Marines since their return home that they were subjected to some psychological pressure tactics–separation, mock executions and so forth. That mitigates their behavior somewhat, but not totally and not actually very much. They weren’t in captivity for years, like John McCain and Jim Stockdale. They were in captivity for days. The first confessions hit the Iranian airwaves within 48 hours or so of their capture. If they held out against their captors, it wasn’t for very long at all.

As See-Dub blogged, captured Americans have held out for much longer and under much greater stress then these hostages did. I’m sure that captured Brits of the past have been every bit as stoic as Admiral Stockdale was in Vietnam. And the fact is, military personnel who are deployed to what can at any time become a war zone (if you don’t already consider the Persian Gulf and the Middle East generally to be one) should be briefed on how to behave themselves if they are captured by a hostile power. They should be briefed that they ought not be quite so quick to yuck it up with their captors, even if they’re faking it.

I’m still persuadable that the Royal Navy is more to blame for the hostages’ behavior than the hostages themselves, first because of the Rules of Engagement and second in the code of conduct for captured British military personnel. I just don’t know what the British code is and to what extent it reinforces loyalty, duty, honor and the idea of resistance to one’s captors. After this incident, I suspect that the British code isn’t much like the US code of conduct. If that’s the case, it’s harder to blame the hostages then the Royal Navy itself for the way they behaved, since the Royal Navy apparently doesn’t do much to prepare and harden its personnel against the tactics captors may use.

In the final analysis of this crisis, it’s possible that both Iran and the UK blinked. The UK didn’t want a fight, and Iran may have gotten a little nervous with so much attention focused on them. It’s possible. It’s also possible that the combination of a carrot–access to the Iranians held in Iraq–and a stick–the presence of two US aircraft carriers lurking in the Gulf with a third on the way–got the sticky situation unstuck. It’s not possible that the threat of UK military action made any difference, since no such threat was ever offered. It’s also not likely that UK diplomacy did much good, since the mullahcracy tends to react to normal European diplomacy with scorn. It’s very possible that Hezbollah’s known presence in the UK stayed Blair’s hand. At this point it seems likely that the US played a major though mostly silent role in freeing those hostages, probably to keep Tony Blair from going under for good. If that’s true, then the UK was essentially bailed out by the US against ambitious rogue state Iran.

Humiliating? I think so.

More:
For an example of how captive troops ought to behave, head over to IMAO.

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Comments

It’d sure be nice to have more tough allies out there. With the apparent collapse of British confidence, that leave Australia and perhaps Poland and other Eastern Europeans as tough (willing to face evil) allies.

gmoonster on April 8, 2007 at 3:32 PM

there’s so little about this situation that we know or will ever know that any conclusions strikes me as focusing on a piece of something as a whole

Defector01 on April 8, 2007 at 3:47 PM

As an East European I have to say that most of our forces are just symbolic. Our armies suck, period.

Darth Executor on April 8, 2007 at 3:49 PM

Yep, the Marines and Sailors will be able to splash the story of surrender all over the media…

and at the same time the BBC cancels a planned program about a Victoria Cross winner because it “mights offend some people opposed to the war”.

Does anyone really wonder why we are loosing the propoganda war???

Romeo13 on April 8, 2007 at 3:58 PM

I’m still persuadable that the Royal Navy is more to blame for the hostages’ behavior than the hostages themselves

so am I Bryan.

Glynn on April 8, 2007 at 4:01 PM

Let me summarize their sad stories . . . we gave up before the fight began, then we cried, whined, publicly admitted fault, trashed our country, got our goody bags and cheap suits and came home. The end.

This sorry bunch should be ashamed to walk in public.

rplat on April 8, 2007 at 4:04 PM

They looked weak, unprofessional and unprepared and then said to represent. “the finest tradition of the Royal Navy.” If that isn’t humiliating for a once proud people who’s Navy “ruled the waves”, then I can’t imagine what is.

For some interesting reading on what the Brits think, check out our friends at:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/

As many of you may recall, Richard did fantastic work ferreting out the corruption of the media in the Qana incident during the recent Lebanon war.

TheBigOldDog on April 8, 2007 at 4:05 PM

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/

As many of you may recall, Richard did fantastic work ferreting out the corruption of the media in the Qana incident during the recent Lebanon war.

TheBigOldDog on April 8, 2007 at 4:05 PM

That was very interesting. Thanks for posting that. I have gotten into at least two confrontations with Brits in the last few days whose premise was we had better stop talking bad about this or they will never help us again. It’s good to know that not all Brits feel that way.

Glynn on April 8, 2007 at 4:14 PM

I think the west, while assigning humiliation to ourselves we’ve missed that Iran did not draw out this hostage crisis for another 432 infidel torturing-Jihadi ingratiating days.

They could have, why not?

I think a phone call on the red line (from?)was the impetus that put the Brits on the plane home.
Whether it was as simple as Khamenei calling Ahmednejad or someone outside like Putin, Blair or Bush, the call got through and an opportunity for ‘students’ to storm an Embassy or detention center didn’t happen.

The message we should therefore pickup on I think is that the Persians can be ‘had’, they are vulnerable and the west should apply every possible kind of pressure towards regime change.

If the Brits don’t operate a kickass Navy anymore that’s their problem.
They got the wussie points they well deserved.

Speakup on April 8, 2007 at 7:30 PM

There is a valuable lesson in the crisis for us. We are basically going to have to handle major world crises alone. The EU has shown itself to be totally toothless, the European countries, including the UK, have gutted their militaries, rendering NATO irrelevant, and the UN will not act on anything. The UK has done yeoman service with us in the past in dealing with world trouble spots, but the resolute ally of Thacter days is no more. Even more dispiriting than the performance of the British military in this crisis has been the lack of British collective outrage towards its humiliation. The majority of the Labor Part de facto supports the Islamonazis and I don’t see any resolute qualities in the Conservative Party.

ptolemy on April 8, 2007 at 7:32 PM

The UK is embarrassed. Embarrassed people seem to always go on the defensive and never want to talk about their embarrassment. Lately hearing the libs defending Iran as if our forces were always in the wrong, Vat else is new.

StuLongIsland on April 8, 2007 at 7:35 PM

I think the west, while assigning humiliation to ourselves we’ve missed that Iran did not draw out this hostage crisis for another 432 infidel torturing-Jihadi ingratiating days.

They could have, why not?

Because the point was already made? Because he’d just demonstrated that he could get away with piracy and not a one of the vaunted Great or Lesser Satans were going to do a thing about it?

For your fantasy about sudden secret double probation scary “pressure” to have any meaning at all, everybody would have had to know that it was the case.

Otherwise, from a propaganda standpoint, your theory is completely useless. Propaganda wars aren’t won by “what might have gone on behind closed doors”, they’re won in the public eye.

So if Limpy McBlair and Wimpy McBush had really pulled off some super scary stunt, they’d better speak up about it.

But hey, any sort of balm to smear on that deep, bleeding wound that is the complete humiliation we suffered, right?

Misha I on April 8, 2007 at 7:59 PM

…whose premise was we had better stop talking bad about this or they will never help us again…

Seems like they need us more than we need them!

Neocon Peg on April 8, 2007 at 8:03 PM

Allies? We can’t even rely on Dhemocrat Americans. It’s down to (most) Republicans fighting against Islamism. Sheesh!

Mojave Mark on April 8, 2007 at 8:12 PM

Otherwise, from a propaganda standpoint, your theory is completely useless.

Then explain why British sailors are home instead of being used as a continuing taunt.

Iranians in charge love nothing more than to prolong every possible misery they can to show the wests impotence.

Twelve days is nothing compared to the 444 tense knife twisting days previously.

Even our whimpy leaders can use the phone when they have to, somebody got through and we should follow up.

Speakup on April 8, 2007 at 9:08 PM

In the meantime, all are selling their stories to the media, with the blessings of their superiors, for upwards of $400,000. Good golly miss molly. WHAT STORIES! This makes me sick.

Glynn on April 8, 2007 at 9:26 PM

You want know why it was 444 days cause Carter was president, he wasn’t going to do anything and the Iranians knew it.

djohn669 on April 8, 2007 at 9:34 PM

I’m always reminded of this quote in situations like this:

It’s rather Carter Esque…

Ladies and gentlemen, our course is clear. The time has come to knuckle under. To get down on all fours and really lick boot.

Jones Zemkophill on April 8, 2007 at 9:44 PM

Even our whimpy leaders can use the phone when they have to, somebody got through and we should follow up.

Even if you were right, and 5 years of “fighting” a war on the cheap while sucking up to every terrorist twat don’t exactly make me over-eager to believe that, it doesn’t matter as long as nobody knows.

Propaganda wars are all about perception, it’s all about what the public thinks. It matters not one tiny little emasculated bit what might have “gone on behind closed doors” if nobody says so. If, and that’s a bit IF, our so-called “leaders” actually managed to grab Ahmadinnerjacket by the balls, then they need to shout it from the rooftops or it won’t matter jack sh*t.

THAT’s how propaganda works.

Misha I on April 8, 2007 at 10:19 PM

I was listening to the ‘Jerry Doyle’ radio show (a must listen for everyone) Friday and he talked about this situation. Two of his callers were retired soldiers who were former POWs, one in Korea, the other in Vietnam. As tear jerking as it was listening to these men, it made me proud to be an American, to live in the same country as men of such sterling character, men who resisted, for years, the very real physical and psychological tortures that were visited upon them by the enemy. And I have NEVER been so glad to NOT be a Brittish citizen as I am today.

wolfva on April 8, 2007 at 10:25 PM

Iran of course wants to win the propaganda war, the Persian Chiefs can can achieve a lot of play out of punishing the west by parading hostages as they were only starting to do.

It’s just too strange that a golden opportunity to exact just that kind of punishment was cut short.

Iran is our sworn enemy, they gave up the chance to gig us for a good long time?

Speakup on April 8, 2007 at 11:24 PM

Iran of course wants to win the propaganda war, the Persian Chiefs can can achieve a lot of play out of punishing the west by parading hostages as they were only starting to do.

It’s just too strange that a golden opportunity to exact just that kind of punishment was cut short.

Iran is our sworn enemy, they gave up the chance to gig us for a good long time?

Please don’t get me wrong, Speakup, I WANT to believe that that’s what’s been going on, but it’s not going to do us any good in the propaganda war for public perception if it remains idle speculation.

That is one of our gravest mistakes in this war. Not only are we not winning the single most important part of all, the propaganda war, we haven’t even started FIGHTING it yet.

Misha I on April 9, 2007 at 3:35 AM

Misha, I agree we haven’t fought the propaganda war anything like we should and the ever present PC crap has a lot to do with it.

I think Iran is quite a bit weaker than we give credit for and giving up a delicious chance to punish the infidel is some proof of that.

Perhaps an economic blockade is more of a threat than Khamenei wants to let on. Or just a drop in oil price might have more effect than the west wants to believe.
My personal opinion is we shouldn’t be so afraid to act.

“February 03, 2007
Thomas Friedman: Iran’s Great Weakness May Be Its Oil

The San Diego Union-Tribune has Thomas Friedman’s latest column from Times Select:

Iran’s great weakness may be its oil, by Thomas Friedman, Commentary,Union-Tribune: There may be only one thing dumber than getting addicted to consuming oil as a country – and that is getting addicted to selling it. … Economists have long studied this phenomenon, but I got focused on it here in Moscow after chatting with Vladimir Mau, the president of Russia’s Academy of National Economy.” …
“The parallel with Iran, Mau said, is that the shah used Iran’s oil windfall after 1973 to push major modernization onto a still traditional Iranian society. The social backlash produced the ayatollahs of 1979. The ayatollahs used Iran’s oil windfall to lock themselves into power.

In 2005, … Iran’s government earned $44.6 billion from oil and spent $25 billion on subsidies – for housing, jobs, food and 34-cents-a-gallon gasoline – to buy off interest groups. Iran’s current populist president has further increased the goods and services being subsidized. ”

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/02/thomas_friedman.html

Speakup on April 9, 2007 at 11:49 AM