The premise of Democracy and the Jury is that a reasonable man can examine any situation and place himself into the shoes of another man and judge whether his actions are reasonable….Are the British soldiers Cowards? Possibly. I see nothing to tell me otherwise at this point. But I can not say for certain yet.
Jones Zemkophill on April 8, 2007 at 9:30 PM

But this assumes that the “jury” would have access to all evidence and facts deemed to be relevant. I doubt that you have all those facts. Democracy also stands for innocent till proven guilty. You have done the opposite.

It’s really not my place to criticize the conduct of the captured British sailors and marines; they have put their lives on the line to defend their country (and by extension, mine), and I have not. They’ve already demonstrated more bravery than I have, just by getting on a boat flying the Union Jack anywhere near Iranian waters.

posted at 6:10 am on April 7, 2007 by see-dubya

I could not disagree with you more.

The premise of Democracy and the Jury is that a reasonable man can examine any situation and place himself into the shoes of another man and judge whether his actions are reasonable.

The actions of those sailors were not acceptable. With Reinforcements close and available, they should have either held their ground or defied the Iranians and withdrew.

I could have accepted the actions of the crew if they were civilians, or non-military forces.

But I look at my kind of fight. Look at the Battle of Leyte Gulf, I look at the battle of Agincourt, I look at the battle for Henderson Field, I look at Flight 92.

Numerical and technological superiority alone is no guarantee of victory.

You need to have heart. The courage to risk your life in protection of others.

The passengers on Flight 92 had it.

They refused to let themselves be used as a weapon of terror.

The British Soldiers did not so choose. They allowed themselves to be used by Iran in a strategic role.

Who knows how many more weapons will make it to Iran and then Iraq because of gun-shy ship inspections now?

Will one of my family members die in Iraq from an EFP-IED shipped by sea?

Are the British soldiers Cowards? Possibly. I see nothing to tell me otherwise at this point. But I can not say for certain yet.

Did they allow themselves to be used as pawns by a government (Iran) seemingly dedicated to bringing about a new dark age?

Without a doubt.

Admiral Stockdale was a great American.

JayHaw Phrenzie on April 7, 2007 at 11:00 AM

May I fix this for you?

Admiral Stockdale was WILL ALWAYS BE a great American.

Wade on April 7, 2007 at 8:08 PM

Fair enough.. Thanks for the reply. I understand yours as well.

Bradky on April 7, 2007 at 6:56 PM

It burns my ass to no end when someone who never served disrespects the service of others but my time in my Marine Corp was served to protect and guard that right for them to say it, rather I like it or not. I fully understand your position.

djohn669 on April 7, 2007 at 7:04 PM

Are you or Wade Col Jacobs? And did Col Jacobs say the British military was unreliable as an ally?
Sorry but some things don’t really need to be second guessed to death. This is one those issues.
If a person hasn’t served it is not a measure of their patriotism but they show a measure of disrespect if they begin to make the call on issues of cowardice of those who do serve.

That is just a simple reality.

The simple reality is you want to stiffle anyone who is not the same mind set.

Wade on April 7, 2007 at 6:45 PM

We will have to agree to disagree. If you haven’t walked in the shoes of a service person there are certain things you will NEVER understand about service. That is just a simple reality.
Given some of the unfair characterizations and assumptions that have been made about these sailors and the British military in this and another thread I’d say my point has been illustrated quite nicely.

I think that unless a person has been in uniform and shared the military experience they have no business second guessing whether a service person

That is so lame. A man does not have to walk in anothers shoes to have opinions, ideas and thoughts. I will say that if someone has walked in anothers shoes, you may weight their opinions, ideas or thoughts differently but wanting to silence anyone is deafening.

Here is our ‘weak’ ally. Here is how pathetic the British people are. Here is the country America has to ’save’.

Well said and the stats prove how pathetic the troops from Britain are. You need to live to win wars not die. As General George Patton said “Don’t be a fool and die for your country. Let the other sonofabitch die for his.”

But as I said above, it’s easy for me to think like that without a gun at my back.

Limerick on April 7, 2007 at 4:07 PM

Extremely well said. Hats off to you Limerick.

My two cents to add:

This is one of the things that irritates me the most about the “support the troops” phrase.

Too many people of both political parties are using it to validate their political view and in reality could care less about the troops as people. The far left tends to treat us like little kids, incapable of knowing we are in harm’s way and in need guidance from the peace loving lefties. The far right tend to paint us as very noble, get a tear in their eye, and use it as a qualifier for their advocacy of using all massive military force options to reach national objectives. But they quickly take offense when asked about their prior service.

I think it is perfectly appropriate for a group of military folks or vets to discuss the actions of other military personnel but more importantly, I think that unless a person has been in uniform and shared the military experience they have no business second guessing whether a service person does in these circumstances unless it is to say “thank goodness there are people who serve and I’m glad I wasn’t faced with the situation they were”
The common bond of our U.S. vets is simply that they served honorably at some point for as little as 180 days or as much as several decades. IMHO we should remind those who have not met this basic criteria and insist on criticizing the behavior of soldiers, that while their opinion may be interesting, it is not welcome, fair or appropriate for discussion outside of the confines of fellow vets/service members.

War Great Britian KIA U.S. KIA
WWI 823,540 116,516
WW2 298,950 291,557
Korea 1,078 33,741
GWOT 192 3,267

total 1,122,490 445,081

These are KIA/MIAs…..not civilians, not road accidents, not flu victims. These men died in the mud and the sand and grew their tree of liberty with the same thing we do.
And before you go and throw in the ‘where’ is Vietnam BS just remember there were a few of Britian’s wars we opted out of. Where was the GI at the Somme, Gallipoli,
Dieppe, Dunkirk, Port Stanley?
…….
Sitting here reading how friggin ‘perfect’ the American GI is over his British counterpart makes me sick. There is a hell of a lot of blood that wasn’t American that helped keep America free. You want everyone to be grateful for American blood sacrifices for their freedoms but are willing to forget about their blood sacrifices for your freedoms.
…….
Do I think it was indecision in the British chain of command and a lack of a good ROE. Sure I do. Do I believe that every American soldier is James Stockdale? No I do not.
God Save the Queen and May There Always Be An England! Making critical comments about what happened in the British Admiralty and Whitehall is one thing. Trashing Great Britian and her citizens is quite another.

Rest assured the war with Iran is on its way. However, after the abuse and vilification heaped on Britain by our so-called “allies”, you shouldn’t count on our support next time.

uptight on April 7, 2007 at 1:32 PM

I am taking a wait and see about vilifying anyone. However, your last sentence struck me profoundly. How dare you. One would think that Britain has been our savior throughout time. How convenient selective and short-term memory must be. Britain has been overrun by radical militant Islam and has capitulated from within. I have no doubt that the United States would not, and will not, hesitate to aid whenever you need may be. You seem to be throwng the baby out with the bath water. Do you think that is wise?

No, the reasoning you’re seeing here points to the idea that that are some things worse than death of the individual. And guess where we Americans got that idea? From your forebears. I guess they didn’t bother to pass that ideal down to you.

baldilocks on April 7, 2007 at 3:20 PM

I think of Joseph Conrad’s Lord Jim or Stephen Crane’s The Red Badge of Courage, but because of classics being replaced by multicultural and feminist pap in schools, many students these days are not getting an education about honor, courage, and sacrifice.

I served with the British military on a Royal Navy base for three years. Some of you idiots don’t have a clue. The British military is a formidable weapon, and the British people, when they decide to fight, are second to none. I’ve never served with finer men and women.

Professor- Was that recently? A lot can change. A caller into the Laura Ingraham show whose husband had been in the Royal Marines said that he was appalled by the Marines’ behavior and that it would never have been tolerated in his day.

and by the reasoning I’m seeing here, the only good marine is a dead marine – or rather one that died in futile battle.

No, the reasoning you’re seeing here points to the idea that that are some things worse than death of the individual. And guess where we Americans got that idea? From your forebears. I guess they didn’t bother to pass that ideal down to you.