An order to surrender is one order that any soldier is allowed to disobey under the UCMJ.

In fact, if the commander giving the order is sufficiently craven about it, an underling would very probably not be prosecuted for fragging the coward and continuing to fight.

I am only going to make one comment on this and that is your use of the Lord’s name. I don’t appreciate it.

Glynn on April 7, 2007 at 1:05 PM

Then don’t you do it.

It is movie wherein some of the characters are literally monsters–not the height of realism. The notion that some people (not necessarily you) breathlessly point to this and other things like 24 as having any relevance to reality, well it’s just simple minded IMO. Jesus H Christ, when do people outgrow this juvenile faux hero worship?

Of course I fault the Iranians, don’t be absurd. I just get tired of all the s**t that rolls downhill–from Abu G to this, placing the blame on the lower ranks just rankles me. These kids will be ridiculed (not undeservedly), but the flag guys? Nothin’

honora on April 6, 2007 at 3:33 PM

I am only going to make one comment on this and that is your use of the Lord’s name. I don’t appreciate it.

Honora, I need a little help here…….. I can’t find it….

PinkyBigglesworth on April 7, 2007 at 3:03 AM

Use dogpile.com, better at current events than google. As to the first part of your post, it’s a little too Joycean for me to try to decipher. Happy Easter.

Honora, I need a little help here…….. I can’t find it….

PinkyBigglesworth on April 7, 2007 at 3:03 AM

Use dogpile.com, better at current events than google. As to the first part of your post, it’s a little too Joycean for me to try to decipher. Happy Easter.

I just get tired of all the s**t that rolls downhill–from Abu G to this,

that you are tallking about???

Terrorists, in civilian clothting, firing from positions behind children, being taken captive, then starting riots, and, psychological techniques to “tame” them, photos being leaked to the press by soldiers with a political agenda, the MSM makes it a decade long story, our enemies turn this propoganda into treasure, it becomes a “talking point”, and you go about your day sipping tea……………….

Close enough?

OK, now that we have that cleared up, let me link to the condemnation of the Iranians for violating international law regargding the British Marines and Sailors…….

(Crickets Chirping)

Honora, I need a little help here…….. I can’t find it….

Mark Banks RM, who is the one marine that is not smiling, deserves kudos for not bending over like his fellow royal marines. He should be promoted to Captain.

Another appeaser, Lieutenant Felix Carman, said this:

“I ordered everyone to make their weapons ready and ordered the boarding party to return to the boats. By the time all were back on board, two Iranian boats had come alongside,” he said.”

“One officer spoke good English and I explained that we were conducting a routine operation, as allowed under a UN mandate. But when we tried to leave, they prevented us by blocking us in. By now it was becoming increasingly clear that they had arrived with a planned intent.”

“We realised that our efforts to reason with these people were not making any headway. Nor were we able to calm some of the individuals down. It was at this point that we realised that had we resisted there would have been a major fight, one we could not have won, with consequences that would have had major strategic impact.”

This guy is a disgrace. He belongs at the UN not in the service of the British Navy. He is a coward and so is the Captain that led the marines.

Uh, Honora, “300″ is based on the battle of Thermopylae, a historical event. It’s not just a movie.

Oddly enough, I blame the Iranians for their piracy and kidnapping. Do you find fault with the Iranians for anything or is it enough that they are fighting Britain so that makes them the good guys in your eyes?

Tantor on April 6, 2007 at 3:25 PM

It is movie wherein some of the characters are literally monsters–not the height of realism. The notion that some people (not necessarily you) breathlessly point to this and other things like 24 as having any relevance to reality, well it’s just simple minded IMO. Jesus H Christ, when do people outgrow this juvenile faux hero worship?

Of course I fault the Iranians, don’t be absurd. I just get tired of all the s**t that rolls downhill–from Abu G to this, placing the blame on the lower ranks just rankles me. These kids will be ridiculed (not undeservedly), but the flag guys? Nothin’

Oddly enough, I blame the Iranians for their piracy and kidnapping. Do you find fault with the Iranians for anything or is it enough that they are fighting Britain so that makes them the good guys in your eyes?

Both the Alamo and Thermopylae while being tactical losses added greatly to morale, bought time with blood and became a rallying cry to the greater war effort at that time.

Kai on April 5, 2007 at 12:04 PM

Tactical loss is a loss nonetheless. Back to the point: in this case, the British commanders radioed to ask what action to take (which begs the question of why there isn’t a standard protocol) and were told to step down. The notion that individual low ranking sailors/kids should have disobeyed that order is bizarre.

This isn’t 24 or 300 or some Mel Gibson movie, this is real life. You want to blame someone, blame those in command.

Their behavior while being held/detained/kidnapped? Well, as I believe I said before, quite odd.

That’s not implausible, but reality. During the 1979 US embassy hostage crisis, that is exactly what the Iranian interrogators did to at least one captive, as documented in Mark Bowden’s book, “Guests of the Ayatollah.” The interrogators specifically threatened one American hostage with killing his child back in America if he did not cooperate.

However, that said, pretending to be joyful and being joyful is easy to spot. Those Brits on the Iranian propaganda videos seem genuinely chipper to my eye.

But check out this first paragraph from the MSNBC story:

The 15 British sailors seized by Iran were kept blindfolded, bound and in isolation by their Iranian captors who threatened them with seven years in jail, they told a news conference on Friday.

Gosh… sounds like just what we did and that was torture right?

Sometimes when you see a published photograph, pieces of it are left out which may be important. Zombie has documented one of the most egregious cases of this type of scenario, but today, it seems that Pamela over at Atlas Shrugs has discovered a new …

SilverStar830….

Ya know bud…..you said you were there. You said you know what is right and what is wrong. Good for you. Here is the difference between you and me. I don’t have my ‘rack’ hanging on my living room wall for my neighbors to spot.

If you go back to my original posts I said EXACTLY what I say now. I will wait til we KNOW. I also stated that I would be the first one to condemn them if they are proven to have violated their orders. Other then that. Get out the brasso. The more shine the better.

Limerick on April 6, 2007 at 12:28 AM

Um, you assume much and know nothing. My “rack”? It’s well packed and in storage because I’d rather just move on than dwell in reminders of unpleasant things.

Your original posts? If I remember correctly, you jumped my $hit like a 5’5″ drill sergeant with a 6’6″ chip, then used the ‘I’m drunk’ closer.

Anyway, it doesn’t really matter. I know I’m right and have been all along. It’s not rocket science. It’s just life experience and common sense. Like they say, “I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes.” Or, “Sad, but true.” Take your pick. The links in AP’s post pretty much says it all.

Wainwright fought on from Corregidor with a barracks of about 11,000 men; he was overwhelmed on May 6, 1942. After his surrender, the Japanese forced the surrender of all remaining defending units in the islands by threatening to use the captured Bataan and Corregidor troops as hostages. Many individual soldiers refused to surrender, however, and guerrilla resistance, organized and coordinated by U.S. and Philippine army officers, continued throughout the Japanese occupation.

http://www.philippinecountry.com/philippine_history/japanese_colonization.html

Ya know bud…..you said you were there. You said you know what is right and what is wrong. Good for you. Here is the difference between you and me. I don’t have my ‘rack’ hanging on my living room wall for my neighbors to spot.

If you go back to my original posts I said EXACTLY what I say now. I will wait til we KNOW. I also stated that I would be the first one to condemn them if they are proven to have violated their orders. Other then that. Get out the brasso. The more shine the better.

When our airmen were captured by Iraq in GW1 they were obviously beaten up and roughed up on camera, not glad-handing with their captives and helpfully explaining “My Bad!” over the whole military action thingy.

All of Europe will fall in the next 10 years to Islamists, we are past the tipping point, just waiting for the final fall.

So, not to be outdone, the next Guantanamo prisoner we release will be wearing a tuxedo, top hat, white gloves and a cane. They come a running just as fast as they can – cause every girl’s crazy ’bout a sharp dressed man – ZZ Top

Here’s a hypothetical for you: suppose the smiling chaps were caught carrying their own wallets. With a Driver’s License along with the military ID that lists their home address in the UK. Courtesy of the Internet, the Iranians can use Google Earth to pinpoint the soldier’s own *house*, and who knows what other personal information. Iran also has dozens if not hundreds of operatives in the UK. Within 12 hours of their capture, the Iranians could have covert photos of the soldier’s families, wives, kids, etc.

Now, imagine that you’re one of the captives, and the Iranians walk in with a picture of your wife doing the shopping and says, “You’re going to smile and wave and play really, really nice, or Suzy is going to have a terrible accident crossing the street tomorrow.” Then what do you do?

Just a sick, twisted, and utterly plausible thought.

People who are broken in resistance training in the military are absolutely thrown for a loop psychologically, to the point that they often must be pulled out of training to regroup. They may piss themselves, shake uncontrollably, cry uncontrollably, among other things. They may be overcome with shame or outrage for giving in or being tricked. That’s what I witnessed as an interrogation trainer in a mock POW camp. You can always see the distress in their face when they have failed themselves. My guess is that such reactions are worse in a real prison camp.

The one thing that broken prisoners never do is laugh and joke around like nothing happenned. If they act like nothing happenned, then nothing happenned. If they’ve failed through weakness in their own eyes, they have no pride about it.

It doesn’t take any time to discover what the historical precedent for resistance of British military resistance in captivity if you’ve read enough history. Your legalistic demand to hold judgement until the British equivalent of our code of conduct is unnecessary to come to a judgement about the weak performance of the British prisoners. I know of no nation anywhere whose policy is for its military prisoners to cheerfully capitulate in every way to the enemy, do you?

Bradky: “I don’t rebut my own argument because I don’t feel a need to make a judgment of them. Nor was I appointed to – were you?”

Refusing to criticize the Brits is making a judgement. Pretending you are not making a judgement is intellectually dishonest, when in fact not making a judgement is making a judgement.

And I don’t need to be appointed by anyone to hold an opinion, just as you feel no need for an appointment to hold a position. That’s another argument that rebuts itself.

Bradky: “So you agree with “the world” as to the Me Lai and Abu Ghraib incidents? If not, then how can you paint the entire british military by the actions of a handful of sailors?”

No, I don’t. I said that the world rendered a judgement on the US military after My Lai and Abu Ghraib, not that I agreed with it. Likewise, the predators of the Middle East have rendered a judgement on the British after the capitulation of its military hostages and the conciliatory tone of the British government in response to Iranian piracy. They will be encouraged to do their worst.

Why don’t you’all wait until all the facts are in. I thought I saw that the RN frigate was under UN control. If so, who gave the surrender command and who told the RN not to stop it.

I’ll admit that I don’t understand the way the captives acted.

duff65 on April 5, 2007 at 8:34 PM

Sigh… the UN does not have direct command of any troops… its not the way it works. Countries send troops in support of UN resolutions, but are always under the command of one country or another. Just like now when 5 or 6 countries have troops on the border of Israel in Lebanon, but it under French command at the moment…

The Frigate was enforcing a UN Security Council Resolution, but was under command of the CENTCOM.

Ditto…….
glad some of these people will never be on my jury.

Limerick on April 5, 2007 at 4:31 PM

Me too. Its easy to judge sitting in the comfort of our homes. I’ll wait to judge after all the evidence is presented.

The ironic thing is some of the people condemning these sailors today are the same people who were up in arms about the way the Lacross players from Duke were “convicted” in the press without all the facts.

Unless I die tonight in my sleep I’ve got nothing but time on my hands. I’ll wait to make my decision.

Some things can’t be taught in school.

I’ll admit that I don’t understand the way the captives acted.