Honora: “Well first, the fault of the surrender is with the command, not the individual sailors. Also, while I find their demeanor…well let’s call it curious, it beats the hell out of beheadings.”

The rules of engagement are the responsibility of the commanders and lawyers. The surrender is the responsibility of the commander of the boarding party. The lack of resistance is the fault of the commander of the boarding party and the individual sailors. Such a lack of resistance encourages more piracy by Iran and its general belligerance. Somehow, I think you’d be singing a different tune had the US kidnapped Iranian sailors in Iranian waters and lied about it.

Rode Werk: “What is truly sad, are the remarks about what they could have done, should have done, or what they might be doing, and all of the judgements about them. No one has really talked to them, nor have they said anything yet. All we have is a bunch of hacks convinced of their guilt without any fact. It is easy to disparage someone while sitting in front of a computer behind the comforting veil of anonymity.”

Well, Rode Werk, I taught interrogation resistence in Air Force SERE after attending them as a student. If that makes me unqualified to weigh in on this topic, a hack in your opinion, I’d like to know what exactly your qualifications are. I’m guesssing your military experience consists of watching reruns of Gomer Pyle.

We have plenty of facts to judge these people by, namely the propaganda videos they made, apparently willingly. If you look at hostage videos made under duress, the difference is striking. Try taking a look at videos Saddam made of pilots captured in the first Gulf War, videos made of the US pilot captured by the Somalis, or film of captured US pilots in Vietnam. There is a great body of work with which to judge these people by, work of which you are apparently ignorant.

It’s pretty obvious from the videos that these folks made no resistance, willingly adopted the Iranian propaganda line, and cheerfully spouted it on camera. Such weak resistance provokes the bully mullahs to do their worst, confident that they won’t be opposed.

honora: “If you were given an order to surrender by command, you may not have done so?? What army is this that allows you to consider orders to be merely suggestions?”

Well, one such army would be the US Army in the Philippines. When Corregidor surrendered, many US army officers in the Philippines took to the hills and fought the rest of the war as guerrillas. Such guerrillas helped prepare for the invasion later.

honora: “What kind of soldiers win battles? The kind that follow orders. Ask someone who actually has fought for their country.”

Like you? The army that wins follows orders when it can, then improvises when necessary. For example, the paratroopers and landing forces on D-Day were all placed in the wrong spots. Had they not abandoned their orders and done what they thought best, the invasion would have failed. Instead, they started the war from where they were and did what they thought needed doing to win.

By contrast, the German forces opposing them strictly followed orders, even though they recognized the need to throw all their assets against the Allied invaders. They waited for Adolf to wake up instead. The German forces who were cut off from their commanders became immediately confused without orders and were easily overcome. Strictly following orders was their downfall.

The reason the US military is so damned good is individual initiative. As Baron von Steuben remarked at Valley Forge, the genius of the American army lies not in telling them what to do, but why they are doing it.

Tantor on April 5, 2007 at 5:01 PM

The fact that the British are one of our best allies and field one of the most professional military forces in the world is why the cheerful capitulation of British Marines and sailors dismays us.

If you don’t holding the British military hostages to the standard of our Code of Conduct, then perhaps you won’t mind holding them to the historical standard of British held by the Germans and Japanese, hostages who did not give up at the first sight of a foreign flag and resisted honorably.

If you think we can not judge the British hostages’ behavior until we have perfect knowledge of their circumstances, then why are you rendering a judgement? Your argument rebuts itself.

The world has indeed judged the US military by Abu Ghraib and My Lai. We likewise find fault with the cheerful surrender of the British Marines and sailors. I’m surprised they didn’t come back in Iranian uniforms.

Tantor on April 5, 2007 at 5:35 PM