“The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome.”

posted at 12:20 am on April 5, 2007 by Bryan

Dr. Francis Collins, interesting guy.

As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God’s language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God’s plan.

I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked “What do you believe, doctor?”, I began searching for answers.

I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My earlier atheist’s assertion that “I know there is no God” emerged as the least defensible. As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked, “Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative.”

I can relate. Eight years at the Hubble Space Telescope project had a similar effect on me. I was never an atheist as Dr. Collins was, and I didn’t head up anything on the scale of the Human Genome Project, but examining the universe in detail through Hubble’s eye at first challenged, and then strengthened, my faith. For me, it was a supernova — Supernova 1987A, to be exact, and how its position 168,000 light-years from us makes it a TiVO writ large that we can use to figure out how large and old the universe is by yardsticking distances to it and other supernovas, eventually all the way out as far as we can see, and then rewinding back to the Big Bang. Genesis 1 turned out to be one of the most interesting and profound documents ever written, once you start to get the science of it all. The God of the Bible is the God of the genome is the God of the distant dying star. If you’re interested in the how and why of that, here’s an article I wrote a while back that attempts to explain some of it.

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Comment pages: 1 2

thank you; someone who can combine faith and science

they’re not opposites

Defector01 on April 5, 2007 at 12:32 AM

My Bible and my LX200 are not at odds. In fact they go together well. Hubble? I am soooooooooooooooooooo jealous.
Sorta like being with Michaelangelo while he was painting the ceiling……

Limerick on April 5, 2007 at 12:32 AM

Science is the rules and methods – the how. Faith is the author/creator/designer of the rules and methods – the who.

TheBigOldDog on April 5, 2007 at 12:34 AM

If you liked that… there’s a book called “Rare Earth” which hits on similiar issues. (The link is to Amazon just for informational purposes)

It’s either a Creator or we evolved from rocks that evolved from an uncaused explosion. Hmm…

Mojave Mark on April 5, 2007 at 12:37 AM

Wow, is this ever going to be a wild ride. If anyone takes the three or four minutes to read the article you linked to, we’ll be arguing for an eternity…depending on how long an eternity is. Has science ever disproven the Bible?

windbag on April 5, 2007 at 12:37 AM

Science puts things in your head while faith puts them in your heart. The age old battle……………

Limerick on April 5, 2007 at 12:40 AM

Your Relevant Magazine is interesting, but it suffers from a problem that a commenter there pointed out:

It tries to reconcile an old Earth and evolution and a literal Genesis 1 through the theory of Relativity, but evolution requires death and suffering before the fall of man. If life had to die and evolve to become man through natural selection or random mutations, how could death be the result of the fall, which couldn’t have happened without Adam?

The time dimension that God experiences, and refers to as days in Genesis, can’t be in the same sequential dimension that we see, otherwise there is no way that “a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”

Although Adam’s sin did not occur until long after evolution began, in logical priority it is near the beginning because it was the means chosen by God to demonstrate his grace. So the order in which God created things is not the same order in which we first see them from within his creation.

pedestrian on April 5, 2007 at 12:40 AM

“…the age old battle…” is right. I truly hope that this thread doesn’t become a spitting contest. It’s about the fact that science need not be a barrier to faith, but can actually strengthen it. That’s the point, and beyond that I’m not going to talk very much. I just don’t want to see the usual evolution vs creationism shoutfest here, that usually erupts when anyone tries to talk about faith and science in the same sentence.

I guess, in other words, I don’t want to regret publishing this post.

Bryan on April 5, 2007 at 12:46 AM

I suppose that it’s understandable that, when confronted with something infinitely vast, perfectly majestic and mind-blowingly complex, people run to the cover of a “creator” to explain it away…but the God of the bible?

To me the God of the bible comes across as a human-esque authority figure – jealous, insecure, vindictive egotist. Ask Lot’s wife.

Maybe that’s all analogy – framing something unexplainable in ways that ordinary, simple people would understand. Getting them to respect it through fear. If so, then it’s the fault of the bible’s authors, rather than some vast omnipotent creator (who would be above such petty human failings).

uptight on April 5, 2007 at 12:47 AM

Thank you, Bryan, I for one don’t regret your publishing this post.
I know what you mean about ‘shoutfests’. A waste of time and space. It’s hard to imagine now that only a short year or so ago “Hot Air” didn’t exist-now it’s a daily read. Keep up the great work.

Doug on April 5, 2007 at 12:53 AM

Of course God could have cleared everything all up in Genesis by just stating he created the sun first and the planets to revolve, but then I guess that woulda been too easy. The creator of the universe and the BILLIONS of stars and galaxies would rather we peons sacrifice the animals he created to attone for our sins. Just curious Bryan have you actually studied the opposing arguments?

Sometimes I wish I could just crawl back into my delusion bubble of potlucks and guilt. =/

frreal on April 5, 2007 at 12:55 AM

To me the God of the bible comes across as a human-esque authority figure – jealous, insecure, vindictive egotist. Ask Lot’s wife.

I hear she was a real pillar of the community.

You’re right, God is a jealous God and He says so. The first commandment says that He will have no other gods before Him. Insecure? Now what reason would God have to feel insecure? Vindictive? No, but He also says that vengence is His. Ego? Hey, if you can back it up…

I think that the real hubris belongs to man. Think of the overweening pride that it takes to think that we’re the center of it all. We’re just a speck on a speck floating in a sea of specks so distant from one another that we can’t even grasp how big the galaxy is, let alone the universe.

Mojave Mark on April 5, 2007 at 12:56 AM

As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God’s language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God’s plan.

Bene Tleilaxu?

Bill C on April 5, 2007 at 1:00 AM

Just curious Bryan have you actually studied the opposing arguments?

Sigh. Of course I have. ffreal, yours is the exact attitude I was hoping to avoid. If you’re going to treat others here like children, then I’ll have to treat you like one and give you a permanent timeout from commenting. Ok?

Bryan on April 5, 2007 at 1:00 AM

Genesis,Science & History
This is also an excellent book.

calirighty on April 5, 2007 at 1:00 AM

=/

frreal on April 5, 2007 at 1:06 AM

Ah…Bryan…I didn’t mean to start a war here. It was just comment on Science vs Faith. I’m one of those Christians who has no problem with evolution or the big bang.

Limerick on April 5, 2007 at 1:07 AM

The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.

I will give thanks to You, for
I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.

INC on April 5, 2007 at 1:11 AM

As difficult and contentious it is to talk politics with people, it’s easy compared to talking religion. With both, one encounters so few people who have actually given serious thought to matters, and one is left dodging emotional bullets and claims based more on “that’s just how I feel” than on a sincere effort to find truth. But much, much more so with religion than politics, because of its nature. Congratulations if you can find someone able to discuss faith in a constructive way.

Halley on April 5, 2007 at 1:19 AM

Mojave Mark says “Insecure? Now what reason would God have to feel insecure? Vindictive? No, but He also says that vengence is His. Ego? Hey, if you can back it up…”

Okay – insecure because he creates man and gives him free will because he wants to be worshiped by something that has made the choice to do so.

Vindictive because if you don’t believe you get sent down to the hell he created so that you can suffer for all eternity.

Ego – because everything he created was created as proof of his wonderfulness, so that we should all be dazzled by the glory and majesty of it and bow down praising him.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not totally against the “creator argument”. I just think that such a being would have different motives and be free of the failings portrayed in the bible.

Also, if you accept the principle of intelligent design without physical proof, you must also take onboard the concept that something created God and that, by our creative actions we are also “Gods”.

Other explanations? The universe is as vast, complex and majestic as it is and we have no more capacity to explain it as a coffee bean can explain the history of the Nescafe corporation (with apologies to Douglass Adams).

Sure – not much of an explanation, but more realistic that inventing some supernatural, extraterrestrial father figure.

That said, the God of the bible is an excellent crowd control device. The ultimate father. If you are good boys and girls, he’ll protect you. If you are bad, he’ll punish you. Maybe they needed that sort of authority in biblical times.

Today however, with mankind having developed the means to destroy itself, using fear as a motivator is flawed & dangerous. It’s too easy for people to abuse the concept for their own ends. It’s easy for cults to make people do things to please God.

uptight on April 5, 2007 at 1:21 AM

Funny how Dr. Collins’ argument can be applied to any force greater than himself. His research didn’t prove God, what it did was make him believe there was some power greater than himself, a power he prescribed to be a god, and more specifically, the Christian God.

Nonfactor on April 5, 2007 at 1:29 AM

That said, the God of the bible is an excellent crowd control device. The ultimate father. If you are good boys and girls, he’ll protect you. If you are bad, he’ll punish you. Maybe they needed that sort of authority in biblical times.

And it’s easy for an absence of authority to become an absence of morality, to evolve into might absolutely making right because there’s no right and wrong to anything other than what the strongest and most violent local thug happens to think today.

It cuts both ways, in other words. If you want to live in a society that’s a cut above the animal kingdom, crowd control via religion ain’t all bad even if you object to the religion itself. Absent “crowd control” as you put it, you get situations like the Critical Mass mob in SF. Only, on a much larger scale.

Bryan on April 5, 2007 at 1:29 AM

I had the opportunity to see this guy not too long ago at a series called ‘Science, Faith, and Technology’

…unfortunately I couldn’t make it but it would have been nice :(

ballz2wallz on April 5, 2007 at 8:29 AM

I’ve always viewed science as attempting to answer the “how”.

God says he created the heavens and the earth. Terrific… “how” did he do it?

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on April 5, 2007 at 8:43 AM

I had a similar experience. I’ve always been Catholic, but never fully put God & Science together until I started studying astrobiology & biogenesis from a synthetic standpoint. Trying to assemble chiral molecules from achiral molecules without the help of a biological system is difficult enough. But to assemble the ingredients in a “primordial soup” in sufficient concentration to form a single-celled organism is a statistical coincidence of monumental proportions. It’s hard not to see a guiding influence in the entire process.

Nethicus on April 5, 2007 at 8:45 AM

I’ve always viewed science as attempting to answer the “how”.

God says he created the heavens and the earth. Terrific… “how” did he do it?

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on April 5, 2007 at 8:43 AM

Any way He wanted; He’s God :)

ballz2wallz on April 5, 2007 at 8:46 AM

I’ve come across Dr. Schroeder’s work before and found it interesting. If for no other reason, that he didn’t start from the premise of “Genesis couldn’t be trusted… it’s just poetry.”

But, I have not come across an answer to how the advent of death works in with this approach to creation. Pedestrian’s answer in an above comment didn’t really help me. In fact I got pretty confused by it! Ha! :)

So, Bryan… can you give some answer about how death fits in? (Or point somewhere where I can read more indepth.)

This is question my wife and I have talked many times before and doesn’t seem to be addressed by anything I read of Dr. Schoeder’s.

ChipDaddy on April 5, 2007 at 8:47 AM

Would you be happy if you had a god you could explain everything about?

ballz2wallz on April 5, 2007 at 8:47 AM

It’s hard to imagine now that only a short year or so ago “Hot Air” didn’t exist-now it’s a daily read. Keep up the great work.

In the begining the internet was without form and void. Then MM moved upon the face on the internet and created HOT AIR and it was good. :) Ok enough blasphemy.

Hey Allah! See this Dr Francis dude? All christians aren’t dumb like me?

Drtuddle on April 5, 2007 at 8:51 AM

That said, the God of the bible is an excellent crowd control device. The ultimate father. If you are good boys and girls, he’ll protect you. If you are bad, he’ll punish you. Maybe they needed that sort of authority in biblical times.

Wow. How many good people are hurt by this world and how many bad people are rewarded? Is that what you think the message of the Bible is? My read on the Bible is salvation, grace, peace to my soul, a personal relationship with God the Father, the Holy Spirit and his Son Jesus Christ.

Thank you Bryan for the link to the article. He mentions Gerald Schroder – this a link to his work.

CrimsonFisted on April 5, 2007 at 9:00 AM

Limerick:
I’m with you.
I believe in evolution and the Big Bang…and I believe God was the one who did it.
As Dr. Collins states: God and science aren’t mutually exclusive.

annoyinglittletwerp on April 5, 2007 at 9:13 AM

I agree that science points to God and believe creation is evidence for his existence.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

With that being said, I sometimes think people get too bogged down with how the earth was created as if knowing the mechanics of creation was a prerequisite to salvation, which it is not. It is a great subject of rigorous debate, but I think the most important thing to know is that GOD created everything and how he chose to do so is secondary.

jman on April 5, 2007 at 9:46 AM

I would like to say, to uptight, “I think you missed something.”

The ultimate father. If you are good boys and girls, he’ll protect you. If you are bad, he’ll punish you.

I am no authority, but this does not seem to me to be the God of the Bible. Is that not an anthropomorphism? Yes, He comes across in terms, estimably, we can understand, yet, isn’t He somehow above that? I would not say that He punishes us in an eternal sense (i.e., Hell), but rather that he allows us to have what we really want: separateness from Him. Is this semantics? Perspective? Perhaps. In terms of “protecting” the believer, I’m not certain what you mean. If you could, ask the many thousands of Christians who have gone to their graves in suffering and punishment (in a purely earthly sense). Protecting their salvation? Protecting their reward? The theology in the above quote seems to me to hinge upon “works”, which is not what the God of the Bible is all about. It is proven to us through the Law and the Prophets that “works” does not work, as there is no mere man perfect enough to perform the “work” necessary to reconcile us to the God of the Bible. But that there is a man, born of woman, not containing the stain of sin, who can and does do that for us. As for “works”: without faith in that man and his action in our behalf, they are “dirty rags”; with such faith, they are gathered and considered toward our reward.

BNCurtis on April 5, 2007 at 9:51 AM

Thank you Bryan for the link to the article. He mentions Gerald Schroder – this a link to his work.

CrimsonFisted on April 5, 2007 at 9:00 AM

I’ve read two of Schroeder’s books, viz.

The Science of God

The Hidden Face of God:Science Reveals the Ultimate Truth

Both books are excellent. So far, I haven’t seen any other books that equal these (IMHO).

As for evolution, you might check out the work of the geneticist Spencer Wells (an American/Stanford Ph.D. working at Oxford in England), viz.:

The Journey of Man

Although Wells seems to be a secular evolutionist, the really interesting thing about his work on the Y-chromosome is that it shows that humans (in their current configuration of DNA) have only been around for 2000 generations (or, by his estimation, 60,000 years). The intesting thing about this, is that he has nearly everyone mad at him (the creationists, who believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, and the evolutionists, who believe that humans and their predecessors have been around for millions of years).

Historically speaking, it is the guy that has EVERYONE (all camps) mad at him that usually turns out to be correct.

CyberCipher on April 5, 2007 at 9:52 AM

No shouting here, just difference in viewpoint.
I pulled this from the following link: http://www.icr.org/article/3228/

Interestingly, the very first time the word is used, in Genesis 1:5, it is strictly defined as the light portion of a light/dark cycle as the earth rotated underneath a directional light source, producing day and night. It is also true that whenever “day” is modified by a number, like second day or six days, it can only mean a true solar day. There are no exceptions in Hebrew. Any uncertainty is resolved in the Ten Commandments as God commands us to work six days and rest one day just as He worked on the six creation days and rested on day seven (Exodus 20:11).

Now consider that each day in Genesis is modified by the term “evening and morning,” both commonly used words in the Old Testament. Can they be referring to indefinite periods of time? Standard Bible study tools define the Hebrew word for “evening” (ereb) as meaning simply evening or night. It is derived from expressions connoting “the setting of the sun or sunset,” and associated with evening sacrificial meal and rituals. Often mentioned is the “evening sacrifice” or “returning at evening.” Likewise the word for “morning” (bôqer) literally means morning or dawn, the breaking through of daylight, and reference is made to “rising early in the morning” or keeping the fire burning until the morning. There is little possibility of translating the word pair as “the end of an age” and/or “the beginning of an age.”

Sorry Bryan, but I do have to respectfully disagree with the “ages” theory.

I do think though, that despite the differences within the Church as to literal days or ages, the important fact is that science has not, and cannot, disprove the existence of the Almighty or that Christ Jesus is who He says He is. That is the bottom line in Christianity anyway, who is Jesus and what do we do with that?

Centurion68 on April 5, 2007 at 9:57 AM

Ok, lemme chime in on the “where does death fit in?” thing.

We all agree that death exists, we see it daily. We also read in Genesis that all was perfect and that through man’s sin, death entered into the world. Yes, that means spiritual death, but it also applies to the physical end of the age of perfection. But let’s get to the science of it all.

No one should argue that we regularly find dead dinosaurs and other “ancient” lifeforms. These abound in the fossil records and are clearly dead. Scientists and creationists routinely argue about carbon dating methods, etc. ad naseum in the ever meandering battle to prove that the earth is either more than or less than 6000 years old.

Which brings us to my radical thought (and no, I’m not the first to espouse this thought, but it receives shockingly little consideration in the world of creation/evolution discussion. Consider this – you are God and you are gonna create a new world. What would it be like? Seriously…think long and hard about how it would be. Are there animals, plant life? Did the animals develop from embrios or were they already old? Are all the elephants (you created them, right – what’s a world without something like elephants) the same age? How about trees, got trees? Seeds, saplings, or ancient redwoods???

Hey, while were at it, what’s a NEW piece of uranium look like? Oh, and new dirt, we definately need to create some new dirt. Insert scientific clue here – new dirt don’t grow anything. Only DEAD organic material makes dirt have growth sustaining qualities. So, you’ve created some pretty trees in new dirt and they instantly began to starve and die within weeks. You’re not a very good Creator are you?

But you are wise, and logical and orderly, so you created OLD dirt instead of new. There are DEAD things in the dirt you created. Brand new dirt, but dead stuff is in it. Question – how old is the decaying dead stuff in the brand new dirt? It’s brand new mind you, but if you carbon date it, what reading will you get?

Here’s the punchline: I’ve seen dinosaur bones, but I have come to believe that it’s quite possible that dinosaurs NEVER walked the earth. They are simply part of the aging process that God built into a brand new OLD earth. Ultimately, death existed on the earth from the moment that the dirt was separated from the sea, so death has been around longer than life. Put that in your tilt-a-whirl and spin on it for a while.

Oh and please, anyone who wishes to debunk this theory, please refer back to the “you’re God” part and explain how to use a Genesis creation model WITHOUT creating stuff that’s already necessarily very old.

Thanks for the post Bryan. What our populace fails to understand, because the educational system refuses to tell the historical truth, is that the vast majority of legendary scientists from centuries past were devout believers in God who were using science as a vehicle to better comprehend His nature.

y2church on April 5, 2007 at 10:04 AM

Limerick:
I’m with you.
I believe in evolution and the Big Bang…and I believe God was the one who did it.
As Dr. Collins states: God and science aren’t mutually exclusive.

annoyinglittletwerp on April 5, 2007 at 9:13 AM

Ditto alt, and I love the name!! The problem is some people insist on trying to base science on faith and religion on proof.

honora on April 5, 2007 at 10:08 AM

I find it satisfyingly ironic that the people who reject the bibles explanation and seek alternate explations (which in turn has driven the advances of technology through the ages) have gone full circle and strengthened the bibles cridbility with that self same science. It makes me feel less enmity towards them.

What is that scripture? Mans wisdom is Gods foolishness?

csdeven on April 5, 2007 at 10:14 AM

I have heard a few different theories on dinosaurs etc.

One guy told me God made the earth of space junk and that those dinosaur fossils were in that junk. This would get some credibility if we could find dinosaur footprints on the ceiling of a cave or up the side of a cliff. As of yet, dinosaur footprints have been found on level ground etc.

A second, and more interesting theory is that God took the time to develope man through the process of evolution. This process evolved until a form of life capable of dominating within the eviroment of this planet emerged. This would include the science of breathing, eating, etc. The opposable thumb is the determining factor which has allowed man to dominate this planet. I know this suggests that God is akin to a kid playing with his science kit until he gets it right and that isn’t lost on me. The explanation for that is something I do not want to get into.

csdeven on April 5, 2007 at 10:32 AM

Look at Genesis 1: 7-8

And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

So heaven divided the waters such that there was a layer of water surrounding the planet.

Genesis 7:11

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

This layer of water was a large source of the floodwater. After the flood, Biblical lifespans dramatically decreased, possibly due to the protective effects of this water barrier.

I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and have stopped trying to rectify it with my scientific education. In the end, science and the Bible must agree, but I will patiently wait until my afterlife for the answers.

Valiant on April 5, 2007 at 10:41 AM

Thank you Bryan. More and more scientists, especially in the fields that really didn’t exist 100 years ago, and at best, at much more basic levels, such as physics and microbiology are producing more and more evidence of perfection that has been assumed shouldn’t be there, yet is.
For readers who are interested in more: Here’s from the world of science – Darwin’s Black Box, M. Beher’s analysis of what he explains as “irreducibility” of protein structures and “cascade” of functions : In other words, something as apparently simple as say, blood clotting, requires that an entire preexisting sequence at the protein level is absolutely required for clotting to occur correctly. Any one error along the sequence negates the clotting – clotting doesn’t occur and the organism dies, clotting occurs too early, the organism dies, in fact, the organism can’t live in the first place. The problem Beher encountered in his work over the years was this: If thirty connected, cascading functions must occur correctly for clotting, one protein relying on the actions of the other protein, then triggering a response for the following protein, then logically, all the sequences must be correctly functional and interrelate from the get-go for the organism to survive. There is no way to evolve to the correct sequence.
The system is “irreducible” : one cannot reduce it to a simpler breakdown; it cannot work.
Beher is a self-proclaimed evolutionist – his challenge is that the evolutionary therory as currently stated is inadequate to account for the irreducible compelexities that exist in the world, therefore, in his mind, the evolutionists must critically analyse the theory and come up with something that does credibly address the reality of the world at the protein level.
Course, after going through Beher’s description of the problem, via what has been discovered about the incredibly complex “world” of proteins, it’s hard not to come to the conclusion that irreducible complexities at the cell and protein levels, just two fields of study that were completely unknown in the mid-1800s, are devastating to the theory of evolution. Cells at that time (1800- mid 1900s) were thought of as simple blobs. Scientists have since discovered that “simple” is not the word to describe cells. Beher describes a single-cell’s rotor structure at the micro level that easily rivals any engineer’s best work.
Beher’s book is well-written and entertaining. His description of the irreducibility of even a simple mouse-trap is surprising.
Beher states the problem he has: either evolutionary theory must be revised logically to account for this, and he doesn’t really know how or irreducible complexities point to a deliberate design, all components created to function at once, from the start. He reluctantly says it: God, but he’s not yet willing to throw in the towel.
Excellent read. Darwin’s Black Box.

http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Black-Box-Biochemical-Challenge/dp/0743290313/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0670677-5745417?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175782409&sr=8-1

naliaka on April 5, 2007 at 11:05 AM

Science and faith do not intersect any more than a building and its foundation.

And for the folks that want to coerce Genesis and Evolution, you have a serious problem. Death was not part of creation. Genesis and the rest of the Bible (especially the New Testament) make that pretty clear. Evolution is predicated on the existence of death. God did not use Evolution to develop Man, as death did not exist until Man was fully formed.

Have or eat the cake. Not both.

spmat on April 5, 2007 at 11:05 AM

Nice post Bryan,
May God Bless You and Your loved ones

abinitioadinfinitum on April 5, 2007 at 11:11 AM

Of course God could have cleared everything all up in Genesis by just stating he created the sun first and the planets to revolve, but then I guess that woulda been too easy. The creator of the universe and the BILLIONS of stars and galaxies would rather we peons sacrifice the animals he created to attone for our sins. Just curious Bryan have you actually studied the opposing arguments?

Sometimes I wish I could just crawl back into my delusion bubble of potlucks and guilt. =/

frreal on April 5, 2007 at 12:55 AM

The language of Genesis isn’t communicating a scientific argument, it’s communicating a theological one.

PRCalDude on April 5, 2007 at 11:20 AM

I’m not dogmatic about it, but I tend towards the pre-Adamite would theory.

Rose on April 5, 2007 at 11:27 AM

Sorry, world.

Rose on April 5, 2007 at 11:27 AM

For all the agnostics and athiests who claim people of faith to be stupid, or ignorant.

God doesn’t roll dice.
Albert Einstein

Just another stupid ingnorant fool.

right2bright on April 5, 2007 at 11:27 AM

I beleive all the major branches of science were discovered by Christians.

I find it funny, Christians or those that think of themselves that, that try to say the Bible is just metaphors and none of that could’ve happened(like Jonah, or the virgin birth). Whether you beleive God created the earth in 7days or beleive in the big bang, both of those theories are far more unbelievable than anything God did in the Bible.

jp on April 5, 2007 at 11:30 AM

Science

and faith do not intersect any more than a building and its foundation.

And for the folks that want to coerce Genesis and Evolution, you have a serious problem. Death was not part of creation. Genesis and the rest of the Bible (especially the New Testament) make that pretty clear. Evolution is predicated on the existence of death. God did not use Evolution to develop Man, as death did not exist until Man was fully formed.

Have or eat the cake. Not both.

spmat on April 5, 2007 at 11:05 AM

Actually this is pretty much the position of the Catholic Church, that evolution and the religious theory of God creating the universe, can and likely do co-exist.

And if death didn’t exist til man was fully formed, are ther live dinosaurs hiding somewhere? That’s kinda scary…

honora on April 5, 2007 at 11:33 AM

I beleive all the major branches of science were discovered by Christians.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Well not math, not medicine, not engineering, not navigation….

honora on April 5, 2007 at 11:36 AM

creationism is a archaic hypothesis, I am an Agnostic… the only way anyone will ever convince me of a God is if they include evolution.

let me help some of you on your English.

theory – the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another.

hypothesis – an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action.

let’s be honest, this all boils down to two arguments. if big bang started it all, then who started the big bang? and if God created everything than who created God.

you cannot take the bible at face value for some quotes and not for others. it has several inconsistencies and several errors… therefore it could not be the direct word of God. it instead could only be an interpretation of what “man” thinks God is saying through him or to him.

if that is true than you must take known facts… and give into evolution theory and build your creation hypothesis from it. I mean, 6000 years old? has anyone seen the scientific time line? that would be like having 100,000 world series games in one day. we have too much record to fit into such a small timeline. and then for suddenly everything to have stopped? and then soo many differnt methods of dating, would have to be faulty… and they already prove each other… example geologic vs ice core vs carbon dating…

and for those of you who did not read what I said… I’m Agnostic not Atheist…

I know this is a Conservative site, I am a conservative in many respects, but it irritates me when people say that you cannot have morals and be good person with out God. let your God teach you morals and then bring those morals to government, but don’t bring your God to government, I doubt he would have wanted to be there anyway.

deep breath… ahhh I feel better…

Kaptain Amerika on April 5, 2007 at 11:38 AM

KA,

Who started bringing morals into it? Although I dont expect this discussion here, I would challenge you to a reasonable debate on your statement that the Bible has inconsistencies and errors.

Oh, and let me help you with your English. Theory can also mean “an idea of or belief about something arrived at through speculation or conjecture.” Nice try using word games.

Centurion68 on April 5, 2007 at 11:51 AM

Can we agree on an “uncaused cause”? Science cannot prove it, because it cannot be replicated/reproduced. History cannot prove it either. Perhaps logic can. If I call the “uncaused cause” God, then I have to ask, “Why?” and then rely on what I have available to answer that question. One also must determine the reliabililty of the available material. Personally, I believe the books of the Bible meet that challenge. Others may disgree, thus I appeal to Pascal’s Wager.

BNCurtis on April 5, 2007 at 11:51 AM

I hear she was a real pillar of the community. Mojave Mark on April 5, 2007 at 12:56 AM

Of course, that is taken with a grain of salt.

God created us. HE then said “…be fruitful, and multiply…

As I interpret it: EVOLVE.

Now, let’s move on to actual, meaningful, non-asinine debate.

Mazztek on April 5, 2007 at 11:54 AM

Will the Hebrew exegetes on this site please raise their hands? What? There are none?

PRCalDude on April 5, 2007 at 12:01 PM

It’s nice to know I’m not the only one who realizes this!

Sometimes I feel like the lone voice crying in the wilderness, let me tell you. When I was grad school profs and fellow students looked with great suspicion at me when they found out that I was a Christian. Told me that there was NO WAY I could ever do good science if I was “religious.” Likewise many of my Christian brothers and sisters have told me that I can’t be a Christian and “believe” in evolution and all that godless science stuff.

Guess what guys? You’re both wrong.

Bob's Kid on April 5, 2007 at 12:05 PM

Will the Hebrew exegetes on this site please raise their hands? What? There are none?

Heh. Geek.

:-)

Slublog on April 5, 2007 at 12:06 PM

Behe (mentioned above) is a joke. There’s lots of information out there about him, I particularly like this piece. The idea of “irreducible complexity” is no problem, it ignores multiple pathways/functions. These two articles are a good start.

dorkafork on April 5, 2007 at 12:13 PM

And it’s easy for an absence of authority to become an absence of morality, to evolve into might absolutely making right because there’s no right and wrong to anything other than what the strongest and most violent local thug happens to think today.

This sounds a lot like a slippery slope fallacy. People can actually be “moral” without fear of eternal punishment, and people can still be “immoral” and believe in a god. Whenever I hear someone make a Machiavellian argument when God is brought up I just get sick.

It cuts both ways, in other words. If you want to live in a society that’s a cut above the animal kingdom, crowd control via religion ain’t all bad even if you object to the religion itself.

Bryan on April 5, 2007 at 1:29 AM

Now this sounds a lot like an either or fallacy. There are more options than accepting religion and and living civilized or denying religion and living like animals. You don’t need religion to live a good life; religious people might think so, but ask someone who doesn’t believe in a god and I don’t think you’ll hear too many of them saying how immoral and uncivilized they are.

Nonfactor on April 5, 2007 at 12:17 PM

PRCalDude,

(raising hand), in the layman’s sense of the word I am. Sure helps to understand my faith better to learn more about the original languages and some of the nuances that dont translate easily to English.

Centurion68 on April 5, 2007 at 12:18 PM

Slublog on April 5, 2007 at 12:06 PM

I know, but come on! Everybody here’s a self-appointed expert on what the OT Hebrew in Genesis is actually saying. That’s what we have actual Bible scholars for.

PRCalDude on April 5, 2007 at 12:19 PM

Bryan,
As I said above, Nice article. I just read your article Relic Or Relevant. It is good to read someone with some intelligence about the Holy Bible and the history of the study of the Bible, by minds like Nahmanides. He knew long ago (by reading Geneses) that we live in a 10 dimensional universe, 4 dimensions known and 6 unknown. Science is just getting around to figuring this out with their latest string theory. It puzzles me why people look at the Bible as being superstition and science as being fact, even though science keeps changing its claims every time something does not fit, or science discovers something new.
.
God and his Word are constant!
.
My favorite quote by Albert Einstein is …People like us, who believe in Physics, know that the past present and future is only a stubbornly persistent delusion.

abinitioadinfinitum on April 5, 2007 at 12:19 PM

Centurion68 on April 5, 2007 at 12:18 PM

Great! Now is Genesis 1-2 making primarily a theological point or a scientific one?

PRCalDude on April 5, 2007 at 12:20 PM

I’ve heard of an interesting idea recently regarding the death bit. It’s clear, of course, that Genesis doesn’t have much detail, because, quite frankly, who would understand it if there were the details? The essentials are enough for faith.

That said, I heard it suggested as thus: If Christ’s sacrifice is salvatory for people before Christ came (and it is, otherwise God is a respecter of persons), then in effect, the one event of Christ’s death and Resurrection has practical effect long before it happened.

Why not the same with the Fall? Did God know what was going to happen? Sure He did. In fact, I believe the Fall was meant to happen. That being said, the effects could have been felt long before the actual event, just as Christ’s atonement works for long before the actual event.

Vanceone on April 5, 2007 at 12:29 PM

The idea of “irreducible complexity” is no problem, it ignores multiple pathways/functions. These two articles are a good start.

dorkafork on April 5, 2007 at 12:13 PM

Once you start on multiple, you get boxed in. Shifting goal posts around, like Beher’s furry little romance-addled rodent facing a twenty lane highway, and providing a theory corallary that’s the equivalent of helping the hapless creature by dropping him mid-highway with a helicopter, ten lanes to go of high-speed traffic, requires intervention. Intervention and evolution are incompatible concepts. As Beher points out, all the components for a mouse trap, asimple enough structure, are sitting in the garage, but they’ll sit there forever, and never organize themselves into a functioning trap. SOMEONE has to provide the organization AND input.
People can read Beher and come to their own conclusions. Beher himself states he’s still seeking an evolutionary solution. It seems your comment is designed to deter the inquisitive reader from reading his work.

naliaka on April 5, 2007 at 12:34 PM

Thanks Bryan. This has been a good read with many thoughtful points.

and if God created everything than who created God.

For anything to exist something has to be eternal (no beginning). Eternal is a term God uses to describe himself. All matter has a half life. Therefore matter is not eternal.

Sorry Bryan, but I do have to respectfully disagree with the “ages” theory.

One difficulty with “ages” is that plants existed in the age before the sun. Surely God has no problem communicating with us. It was pointed out very well upline how the Bible emphasizes the six day thing.

Dinosours? Google “stegasourus angkor” That will open an interesting door with lots of related material.

In the end, science and the Bible must agree, but I will patiently wait until my afterlife for the answers.

the bottom line in Christianity anyway, who is Jesus and what do we do with that?

roydee43 on April 5, 2007 at 12:38 PM

Of course, that is taken with a grain of salt. Mazztek on April 5, 2007 at 11:54 AM

Thanks for catching my little quip, I *sniff* didn’t think anybody noticed.

Evolutionists see a Ferrari and say “Wow, what an amazing accident! I wonder what explosion created it?”

Creationists see a Ferrari and say “Wow, what amazing engineering! I wonder how the design team made it.”

Mojave Mark on April 5, 2007 at 12:39 PM

It seems your comment is designed to deter the inquisitive reader from reading his work.

Yes, exactly. I would recommend an inquisitive reader not waste their time reading his nonsense. There are many good science books they could read instead. At the very least I would hope they would read criticisms of his work as well.

dorkafork on April 5, 2007 at 12:42 PM

I beleive all the major branches of science were discovered by Christians.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Well not math, not medicine, not engineering, not navigation…

I suggest you do a little research on these guys:

The Scientific Method – Robert Boyle
Antiseptic Surgery – Joseph Lister
Bacteriology – Louis Pasteur
Calculus – Isaac Newton
Celestial Mechanics – Johannes Kepler
Chemistry – Robert Boyle
Comparative Anatomy – Georges Cuvier
Dimensional Analysis – Lord Rayleigh
Dynamics – Isaac Newton
Electronics – John Ambrose Fleming
Electrodynamics – James Clerk Maxwell
Electromagnetics – Michael Faraday
Energetics – Lord Kelvin
Entomology of Living Insects – Henri Fabre
Field Theory – James Clerk Maxwell
Fluid Mechanics – George Stokes
Galactic Astronomy – Sir William Hershel
Gas Dynamics – Robert Boyle
Genetics – Gregor Mendel
Glacial Geology – Louis Agassiz
Gynaecology – James Simpson
Hydrography – Matthew Maury
Hydrostatics – Blaise Pascal
Ichthyology – Louis Agassiz
Isotopic Chemistry – William Ramsey
Model Analysis – Lord Rayleigh
Natural History – John Ray
Non-Euclidean Geometry – Bernard Riemann
Oceanography – Matthew Maury
Optical Mineralogy – David Brewster

all Christians, with a Christian worldview. They may not all have agreed on all of the tenets of the faith, but all believed in the Christian God as Creator. Were it not for their achievements in their respective sciences, the world would be a much darker place.

jp on April 5, 2007 at 12:43 PM

Well not math, not medicine, not engineering, not navigation….

honora on April 5, 2007 at 11:36 AM

Louis Pasteur

Law of Biogenesis – proved (LAW) that the theory of spontaneous generation was wrong. Life comes from existing Life.
Germ Theory of Disease
identified bacteria cause for beet juice fermentation
identified cause and treatment for silk worm disease, saved the silk industry in France
developed “pasturization” first for milk then applied it to the French wine industry which was being devastated by spoilage from bacteria contamination
Developed vaccine for Fowl Cholera
Vaccine for Anthrax. His scientific challenge to prove the protection of the Anthrax vaccine was the sensation of France.
Vaccine for Rabies, even though his microscopes were not powerful enough to actually see the rabies virus. It was a black box problem, but he solved it.

Not bad for a fellow who got his degree in chemistry. He set the foundation for modern medicine. His only regret in his life was that he felt that he hadn’t done anything specifically to help people and he had prayed to God during his career that he might do something for people. When he was approached to solve the rabies problem, he felt his prayers had been answered.

naliaka on April 5, 2007 at 12:48 PM

jp on April 5, 2007 at 12:43 PM

That’s an awful lot of scientists and engineers. Sure seems like the founders of a lot of scientific fields. I don’t think we could have gotten by without Maxwell’s equations or Newtonian physics.

PRCalDude on April 5, 2007 at 12:52 PM

Yes, exactly. I would recommend an inquisitive reader not waste their time reading his nonsense. There are many good science books they could read instead. At the very least I would hope they would read criticisms of his work as well.
dorkafork on April 5, 2007 at 12:42 PM

Yeh. Let the descerning reader make that decision themselves. They can read criticism as well – in fact most descerning readers would, to be sure. Let the cards fall where they may. How many students these days have ever heard of the Law of Biogenesis? One wonders if it provokes inconvenient conclusions. There’s a lot of dishonesty in science, mixed up with huge egos. Discerning readers will discover that.

naliaka on April 5, 2007 at 12:53 PM

“…that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds.”

Absolutely. I am always amazed at otherwise intelligent people who discount the reality of GOD with one dimensional arguments that they cannot ‘see, hear, feel, quantify, measure, record or otherwise weigh emperical evidence for the existence of GOD so therefore HE/SHE/IT must not exists.

The retort is obvious: ‘what color is love?’ ‘How much does justice weigh?’ ‘What shape is logic’? All very real and complex concepts that we, as humans, except as facts and necessary for an orderly & coherent life, but very intangible, ellusive & subject to debate all at the same time.

We curious humans spend billions of dollars and decades of time with radio telescopes pointed at the heavens. Unlike all other animals with which we share this planet, we humans anxiously try to catch just some faint glimmer of a repeating pattern or primordial code amidst the infinite backdrop noise of space to ‘prove’ an extraterestrial existence or intelligence.

But our own complex, repeating copy for the blueprint of life wonderously contained within us and uniquley passed on from generation to generation is deemed by ‘venerable & educated’ people to be nothing more than a random, cosmic accident with no point or purpose.

We certainly are a queer species.

locomotivebreath1901 on April 5, 2007 at 12:55 PM

Mojave Mark on April 5, 2007 at 12:39 PM

What about those of us who just see a Ferrari and drool?

Slublog on April 5, 2007 at 12:55 PM

What about those of us who just see a Ferrari and drool?

Slublog on April 5, 2007 at 12:55 PM

HehHeh.

PRCalDude on April 5, 2007 at 1:03 PM

Pagan cultures do not produce science. Science requires meddling in and testing of the world. Pagan cultures teach that it is blasphemous and hazardous to provoke spirits that live in inanimate objects. Therefore, the scientific method is dangerous. There is no development in pagan societies. They sit unchanged using whatever has already been learned, no more, for a thousand years.
The Judeo-Christian theology does promote science, by two elements: 1: God is not part of the world, therfore, no blasphemy or harm is done by fiddling with the world. 2: the Biblical command to go out and subdue the earth. Subdue means “tame” (not destroy or trash). Therefore, plain permission to find out how nature works, in order to use it.

naliaka on April 5, 2007 at 1:06 PM

Laws of physics = God’s law?

Kokonut on April 5, 2007 at 1:08 PM

Question for y’all…

Why does math work the way it does?

Without it, we wouldn’t have discovered any of the laws of physics. So, how come math works?

Kokonut on April 5, 2007 at 1:14 PM

What should be terrifying to all rational people is the rise of Neo-Lysenkoism in the body of Al Gore, oracle of the concept of “Global Warming.”
“by which personal ambition, state ideology, legitimate scientic division, appeasement and a curious mixture of legitimate and bogus science could get out of hand.” Elof Axel Carlson from Roll-Hansen’s “The Lysenko Effect.”
The warning signs are the threats from ignorant political figures who have no real science training in the field of climatology against climate researchers and meterologists who fail to toe the official party line of “global warming.”

naliaka on April 5, 2007 at 1:17 PM

‘except’ = ‘accept’

AAARRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

locomotivebreath1901 on April 5, 2007 at 1:19 PM

jp on April 5, 2007 at 12:43 PM

That’s an awful lot of scientists and engineers. Sure seems like the founders of a lot of scientific fields. I don’t think we could have gotten by without Maxwell’s equations or Newtonian physics.

PRCalDude on April 5, 2007 at 12:52 PM

Yes, and imgagine were we’d be without Gynaecology ;)

I beleive there are more than those, I think Einestein even admitted to the existence of a God as he was so overwhelmed with the complexity of the universe…

jp on April 5, 2007 at 1:24 PM

Behe (mentioned above) is a joke. There’s lots of information out there about him, I particularly like this piece. The idea of “irreducible complexity” is no problem, it ignores multiple pathways/functions. These two articles are a good start.

dorkafork on April 5, 2007 at 12:13 PM

Your Behe article is not nearly as devastating as you seem to think, dorkafork. The current NAS definition of science does not allow that there be any consideration for the supernatural. Even if the supernatural does exist, scientists aren’t allowed consider it! Behe testified, rightly, that this is a deficient definition. It’s no wonder that “science” has come up with undirected evolution—they’re not allowed to think anything else! What we’re left with is a pathetic, convoluted, self-contradictory mess that defies probability that is evolution. Not to mention the sticky wicket of the requirement for an uncaused first cause—which by definition MUST BE supernatural.

jdpaz on April 5, 2007 at 1:50 PM

Good debate going on here, which is great since debates about religion vs. atheism almost always degenerate into shouting matches.

As a Christian, I have come to the conclusion that, whereas I know what I believe, the only thing I know about how everything came about is that I don’t.

Nor does anybody else, except for G-d. Or, if He doesn’t exist, nobody at all.

As a result, I don’t have a problem with atheists and/or agnostics, because they don’t know either. The only ones I have a problem with are the ones that cannot address a Christian without a condescending sneer of superiority. Those twats are fair game. And that goes for the other side as well, myself included if I fail occasionally, which I’m sure I do.

I, too, tire of the suggestion that “you cannot have morals unless you’re religious.” Nonsense. I know a lot of atheists who are at least as morally grounded as I am, if not more. Yes, it’s easier to be moral if you’re a Christian because morals are in the Rule Book, all you have to do is follow the rules, but that’s a far cry from being proof that you cannot reach the same conclusions without them.

Anyway. Great articles, Bryan, and definitely food for thought. Funnily enough, I made pretty much the same journey as Dr Collins. From convinced atheist to believer through observing the wonders of the Universe. Granted, I disagree with the whole “death before death” notion that you have to accept for evolution to fit, either G-d’s Word is immutable and inerrant or it isn’t, but I guess that Dr Collins is just at a different stage of the journey than I am. I would have agreed with him completely say, 10 years ago or so.

Misha I on April 5, 2007 at 1:57 PM

Behe (mentioned above) is a joke. There’s lots of information out there about him, I particularly like this piece. The idea of “irreducible complexity” is no problem, it ignores multiple pathways/functions. These two articles are a good start.

dorkafork on April 5, 2007 at 12:13 PM

Here Behe addresses criticisms of ‘irreducible complexity’. I haven’t read all your links yet, but you might find his response interesting.

ballz2wallz on April 5, 2007 at 2:02 PM

Misha l,
How does your moral atheist convince a serial killer atheist that his actions are wrong. What reason could the MA possibly give to the SKA other than, “well, it’s just wrong”.

Just because we find individual atheists who act in a way that we would define as moral does not mean that they have any basis for their acting that way.

jdpaz on April 5, 2007 at 2:08 PM

Now this sounds a lot like an either or fallacy. There are more options than accepting religion and and living civilized or denying religion and living like animals. You don’t need religion to live a good life; religious people might think so, but ask someone who doesn’t believe in a god and I don’t think you’ll hear too many of them saying how immoral and uncivilized they are.

Nonfactor on April 5, 2007 at 12:17 PM

These statements always make me laugh. What humantarian contribution, in relation to religion, has athiests and agnostics made? How many hopitals have they built. When was the last time in a disaster, did the athiests send food, water, clothing, etc.? What, never?

Athiests and agnostics take, and partake, but do not give. They revel in their theory that they are “good” people. And they may do no harm, but they do very little good. I am being judgmental? What were the answers to the above questions? How about this one: How many thousands of people everyday do the athiests and agnostics feed and house? When inclimate weather comes, do they open their businesses, and allow the poor to eat and rest in their business? I am sorry, what athiest organization flys medical teams into areas that have no access to doctors?
Yes athiests and agnostics get to live a good life in a good country, in a good society. How lucky for them, just don’t take credit for it. Give credit where credit is due, to the millions of faithfull people who give time, talent and money to build a moral and civilized country.

right2bright on April 5, 2007 at 2:11 PM

jp-

Let me add to your list:

Logarithms – John Napier
You name it, he did it – Leonhard Euler

INC on April 5, 2007 at 2:16 PM

Great! Now is Genesis 1-2 making primarily a theological point or a scientific one?

PRCalDude on April 5, 2007 at 12:20 PM

The entire Bible is about theology as has been pointed out already. The Bible is about how man separated himself from God and how God bridged that gap of sin. I know that’s a pretty simplistic viewpoint but this isn’t a paper for a seminary class.

So no, the Bible is not a science textbook any more than it is a history textbook. However, there are plenty of scientific and historical facts in it.

Centurion68 on April 5, 2007 at 2:18 PM

Francis Schaeffer, in the 1970′s wrote:

Living within the concept that the world was created by a reasonable God, scientists could move with confidence, expecting to find out about the world by observation and experimentation. This was their epistemological base–the philosophical foundation with which they were sure they could know….Since the world had been created by a reasonable God, they were not surprised to find a correlation between themselves as observers and the thing observed….Without this foundation, Western modern science would not have been born.

INC on April 5, 2007 at 2:18 PM

Misha l,
How does your moral atheist convince a serial killer atheist that his actions are wrong. What reason could the MA possibly give to the SKA other than, “well, it’s just wrong”.

Just because we find individual atheists who act in a way that we would define as moral does not mean that they have any basis for their acting that way.

jdpaz on April 5, 2007 at 2:08 PM

Why not? An atheist might say, for instance, that murder is wrong, not just because it is “wrong”, but also because it disrupts the structure of society. He might argue that theft is wrong because it is a threat to private property rights, without which operating a functional economy becomes tricky at the very least. If everything is there for you to take at will, then why pay for it? He might argue that adultery is wrong because it disrupts families, which is the foundation upon which our survival as a nation rests.

Just a few examples. I used to be an atheist, but my morals were pretty much exactly the same then that they are now, and they were based on quite a bit more than just “wrongness.”

I opposed abortion when I was an atheist because it is murder, I still do. I don’t really need the Bible to tell me that it is murder, because I already knew that.

Misha I on April 5, 2007 at 2:20 PM

From the book, Mathematics: Is God Silent? by James Nickel, here are some comments from men who were not Christians (my emphasis):

Morris Kline:

Finally, a study of mathematics and its contributions to the sciences exposes a deep question. Mathematics is man-made. The concepts, the broad ideas, the logical standards and methods of reasoning, and the ideals which have been steadfastly pursued for over two thousand years were fashioned by human beings. Yet with this product of his fallible mind man has surveyed spaces too vast for his imagination to encompass; …and he has discovered particles too small to be seen with the most powerful microscope. Cold symbols and formulas completely at the disposition of man have enabled him to secure a portentous grip on the universe. Some explanation of this marvelous power is called for.

INC on April 5, 2007 at 2:22 PM

Dr. Remo J. Ruffini, a physicist at Princeton:

How a mathematical structure can correspond to nature is a mystery. One way out is just to say that the language in which nature speaks is the language of mathematics. This begs the question. Often we are both shocked and surprised by the correspondence between mathematics and nature, especially when the experiment confirms that our mathematical model describes nature perfectly.

INC on April 5, 2007 at 2:24 PM

Misha, Why should I care about society or the economy? If this life is all there is, then screw everybody I’m doing whatever I want.

jdpaz on April 5, 2007 at 2:25 PM

Mr. Nickel describes an article written by Eugene Wigner (Nobel prize in physics), in 1960, titled The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences:

Wigner continues to express his bafflement over the fact that “it is not at all natural that ‘laws of nature’ exist, much less that man is able to discern them.” Concerning the effectiveness of Newton’s [a Christian] law of universal gravitation, he says that it “has proved accurate beyond all reasonable expectations.”

He continues to illustrate the mysterious usefulness of mathematics by citing the application of imaginary numbers (e.g., √-1) in the laws of quantum physics. First, he observes that “the use of complex numbers is in this case not a calculational trick of applied mathematics but comes close to being a necessity in the formulation of the laws of quantum mechanics.: Given this fact, he responds with this amazing remark, “It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here”

Finally, he concludes, “Fundamentally, we do not know why our theories work so well.” And to this, he concludes:

“The miracle of appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning.”

INC on April 5, 2007 at 2:26 PM

Misha, Why should I care about society or the economy? If this life is all there is, then screw everybody I’m doing whatever I want.

jdpaz on April 5, 2007 at 2:25 PM

Because a well-ordered, functional society and a roaring economy might benefit you and yours personally, as opposed to living on the island of the Lord of the Flies?

Misha I on April 5, 2007 at 2:33 PM

Because a well-ordered, functional society and a roaring economy might benefit you and yours personally, as opposed to living on the island of the Lord of the Flies?

So if I like a functional society and a roaring economy then I can choose to act in a way that encourages that and say those are my “morals”. But since I don’t care, I choose to be a serial killer. My chosen “morality” is only based on how I feel about things.

jdpaz on April 5, 2007 at 2:39 PM

Let me add one comment to Misha & jdpaz’ dialogue and then I’ve got to run.

One of my pastors once said that God has morally underwritten His universe. There’s a reason why following God’s laws (whether you believe in Him or not) produces a well-ordered, functional society and a roaring economy that benefits people.

Paul in Romans also said: For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

INC on April 5, 2007 at 2:41 PM

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