Kathy Shaidle, on the Zombie Jesus: I’m not sure we have any right to be annoyed about this. You grown ups dumbed downed and “pop”-ed up Christianity starting in the early 1960s. You told kids that Jesus was just another……

I’M DIFFERENT BECUASE (sic) I BELIEVE IN SCIENCE, AND YOU CAN SEE ALL THE SCIENCES RIGHT?

Vincenzo on April 3, 2007 at 10:17 AM

As the black knight in Monty Python’s Holy Grail would say:

“You shall not pass!”

Hmmmm, let’s see.
There’s dark matter (astronomy).
There’s dark energy (astronomy, again).
Oh yeah, then there’s that whole “string theory” thing
(sub-atomic particle physics).
Those are just the first three that came to mind.
There are many other examples.
There are MANY branches of science that teeter on the brink of religion, philosophy, meta-physics. Unless, of course, you’d rather not refer to those disciplines as “science.”
The fact is, many physicists believe in things that they can not see, and, in some instances, things that they can not even begin to verify with a control experiment. At times, I think that they have more “faith” than EITHER “religious” or “authentic.”

Just sayin’.

THEY ARE CALLED THE TEN “COMMANDMENTS”, NOT THE TEN “SUGGESTIONS”.

And no easy-listening version of His word will change what was WRITTEN IN STONE.

Jesus said if we are to follow him we must take up our cross and deny ourselves. If there were no choice but just predestination then there would be need for that. We wouldn’t need to repent. We wouldn’t need to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. And we wouldn’t need to worship Jesus on Sundays because after all we were chosen before the creation of the world.

If it was up to our choices, in that we sufficiently repented, we preserved the cleaning of our baptism, or that our Sunday worship was in any way adequate, we would be toast. Our only hope is in God’s grace that he chose to give us. Our repentence, baptism, and worship are consequences of our being saved, not the cause.

NIV says “through” the original Greek says “through” so i’ll stick with “through”

calirighty on April 3, 2007 at 7:24 PM

The original Greek is “dia” which means this:

1) through
a) of place
1) with
2) in
b) of time
1) throughout
2) during
c) of means
1) by
2) by the means of

2) through
a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1) by reason of
2) on account of
3) because of for this reason
4) therefore
5) on this account
Again, you go by means of Jesus Christ. On His account. By Him. Because of Him. He does the moving. He does the accounting. He carries you. The same way you get to heaven is the same way Job, David, Moses and Paul went to heaven. By the blood of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:4 says “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.”

God chose ALL of us to be holy and blameless in his sight. That is why He created us. However, because of free will, man fell into sin. Jesus said if we are to follow him we must take up our cross and deny ourselves. If there were no choice but just predestination then there would be need for that. We wouldn’t need to repent. We wouldn’t need to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. And we wouldn’t need to worship Jesus on Sundays because after all we were chosen before the creation of the world.

You don’t go through Jesus. You go by Jesus. I.e. He carries you.

NIV says “through” the original Greek says “through” so i’ll stick with “through”

As far as salvation is concerned we absolutely control it. We hear the word and make a decision for or against Christ. God does not force us either way. If you choose Christ then you have chosen salvation. If that is not control then i don’t know what is.

calirighty on April 3, 2007 at 6:25 PM

Ephesians 1:4 says “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.”

How can we be in control when we were chosen before our own creation?

You can’t go through Jesus if you have not heard of him or rejected him.

calirighty on April 3, 2007 at 4:41 PM

You don’t go through Jesus. You go by Jesus. I.e. He carries you.

no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is but one salvation. That is by the blood of Jesus Christ, shed 2000 years ago. It is by that same blood, as it will be the same resurrection, that Job will be redeemed.

It is one thing to be denied access to the scriptures and still hold fast, but it is an entirely different matter to reject them in favor of larger congregations. That is the way of Laodicea

I agree

It says “to all the earth” not just to the Jews.

You and I are talking about different things. If you read that passage you see that it is in quotes. If you do a bible search and look for that quote you will find that it is in Psalm 19:1-6:

Psalms 19:1-6
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. 4 Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, 5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. 6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.

“Their” is referring to the sky and the heavens. No speech or language means that regardless of what language you speak you can see the sky and heavens and understand that God made them. It is in no way stating that everyone in the world has heard of Jesus. It is also not stating that just believing that God made the heavens and the sky is sufficient for salvation. That’s why you have to read the beginning of Romans 10. It is referring to Jews who HAD heard the word but refused to believe. It is not referring to people who had never heard of Jesus.

My point is not that one must read the Bible to be a Christian. My point is that one is in real peril when one refuses to diligently seek truth from scriptures (earnestly contend) in the name of inclusiveness.

It is one thing to be denied access to the scriptures and still hold fast, but it is an entirely different matter to reject them in favor of larger congregations. That is the way of Laodicea.

What we know matters only to the extent that it is a gift from God for us to pass on.

pedestrian on April 3, 2007 at 5:42 PM

I agree. We don’t control our salvation; we don’t even deserve it.

Of course. But as far as that scripture you are referring to in Romans 10, it is not referring to those who have not heard. it is referring to the Jews who HAD heard but chose not to except Christ. And as far as the Gentiles were concerned Paul was stating that the Gentiles would not hear unless they were told. They would not be told if people weren’t sent to tell them. People would not be sent to tell them unless there were believers to send. Finally there would be no people to send if people did not believe in the first place. I don’t know if this helps but it is the best I can do to explain it.

calirighty on April 3, 2007 at 5:36 PM

It says “to all the earth” not just to the Jews.

cali,

I think we’ve done the best we could.

PRCalDude on April 3, 2007 at 5:40 PM

I’m actually a Christian, someone who has accepted Christ, His crucifixion and the whole of the Bible. And you’re giving up on me.

What if I were not a Christian, especially since you believe that only those who hear the word can become Christians?

I’m not insulting either of you and am not asking anything difficult. I’m asking how you reconcile scripture with what you believe. If you can’t answer me, how do you answer someone who needs to know?

Sigh. You can not cherry pick scriptures out of the bible and twist them to meet your own understanding. You have to accept the ENTIRE bible as the word of God. Jesus himself said in John 14:6 I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. You can’t go through Jesus if you have not heard of him or rejected him.

calirighty on April 3, 2007 at 4:41 PM

The sentence “No one comes to the father except through me.” can be taken many ways. I prefer the sense implied by Ephesians 1:1-23 which says that our salvation is not a matter of what we do, but depends solely on the grace of our Lord. What we know matters only to the extent that it is a gift from God for us to pass on.

I think we’ve done the best we could.

I’d even say that it’s more than a command. I’d say it’s a natural thing for a Christian to do the same as a fish breathing water.

Esthier on April 3, 2007 at 5:28 PM

Rather that it should be, since it is an outpouring of God’s nature. What I mean is that the closer we are to God, the more “loving” we will naturally be.

I’d even say that it’s more than a command. I’d say it’s a natural thing for a Christian to do the same as a fish breathing water.

Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

This is why I don’t like the term doctrine. Too many people confuse doctrine with direct instructions from God.

Your argument was that we did not need to know about Christ crucified in order to become a Christian.

That’s what Paul said, and you’ve yet to explain to me why he would lie.

But I ask, Have they not heard? Indeed they have; [for the Scripture says] Their voice [that of nature bearing God’s message] has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the far bounds of the world.