Religion debate: Pastor Rick Warren versus atheist Sam Harris
posted at 9:53 am on April 2, 2007 by Allahpundit
Share on Facebook | regular view
It’s ten pages long so I won’t waste your time with my own commentary. Best line: “So, parse that. God gave you an immigration attorney, but God killed a little girl.” Disturbing runner-up: “If death is the end, shoot, I’m not going to waste another minute being altruistic.”
A Christian friend of mine insists Harris is going to find religion someday because his interest in the subject supposedly betrays a yearning to believe that he won’t be able to resist forever. I find that logic grossly insulting and presumptuous, essentially the theological equivalent of what the left does when it accuses critics of homosexuality of being latently gay themselves, but I confess to having raised an eyebrow at this passage towards the very end:
WARREN: Can you have spirituality without a spirit?
HARRIS: You can feel yourself to be one with the universe.
WARREN: OK, then why can’t you just take the next step? Because right now you’re talking in extremely nonrational terms.
HARRIS: There’s nothing irrational about it. You can close your eyes in meditation and lose the sense of your physical body, totally. Many people draw from that the metaphysical conclusion that “I’m just spirit, and I can transcend the body.” That’s not the only conclusion you have to draw from that experience, and I don’t think it’s the best conclusion.
WARREN: You’re more spiritual than you think. You just don’t want a boss. You don’t want a God who tells you what to do.
Warren ends, incidentally, by invoking Pascal’s wager. Take advantage of a slow Monday morning and dive in.
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2
Don’t usually like to use movies, but there’s a great scene in the Ten Commandmants when one of the Egyptian soldiers watching the plague cloud drift thru the city keels over. His father the general, holds him and says with anguish, “He was my first born.”
Add this – where’s the condemnation for the Pharoah for ordering all the sons of Israel killed, based on some vague soothsaying prophecy of a “deliverer” arising up, sometime in the future. Not exactly fair or kind or just. The daughters of course being kept as slaves and concubines, which was standard treatment for the day, but distasteful to our modern, softie souls. Where’s the condemnation of the dissolute and selfish King Herod’s directive to slaughter all the children two and under in Bethlehem to destroy a potential future king arising out of there – based on no legal basis, but a prophecy? We expect far better treatement for ourselves and our children from our leaders, to say the least don’t we?
naliaka on April 2, 2007 at 3:41 PM
The concept of the Trinity isn’t explained until the book of John. The Old Testiment people had no concept of the Trinity.
And yes, it’s true. Jesus and God are the same. In fact, Jesus said:
Basically, when Jesus came He explained directly what God meant by what He said or did. So in looking at the Old Testiment, you must look at it through the lens of what Jesus said and did, acknowledging that the Israelites didn’t always do the right thing.
So? If something is the truth it will transcend cultures. Many cultures also have a flood story. This doesn’t prove the flood stories are all myths.
In Russia many people believe that someone other than the Wright brothers crafted the first airplane. Is that supposed to prove that the airplane was not invented?
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 3:51 PM
AAAAAAIIEEEEEEE!!!!!
Another religion thread spirals into MAAAAADNNEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!
Dunno.
Bad Candy on April 2, 2007 at 3:53 PM
It was certainly a different time, a time when actions took on different meanings. Military might was something that others could see. Benevolence was not.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 3:56 PM
Oh PrCaldude. Tektonics is the king of circular logic and manipulating scripture to fit belief, denying obvious biblical contradictions and errors while at the same time justifying slavery, polygamy, rape, incest, torture, theft murder of babies, children, handicapped, elderly and other moral abhorrations as righteous as long as commanded by God.
I don’t care what time period you come from there has to be some moral conscience about killing small children and having your way with the virgin girls. If God is unchanging and God is the father of Jesus and Jesus is God then Jesus did in fact order the Israelites to kill the little ones specified in Numbers 31:17. And let me preface this by saying God recognized the age of accountability in Isaiah 7:16. Thus there can be no doubt that God instructed the killing of innocent children. If this is OK with you then I guess we lie on different moral plains.
Please note I was a former devout full immersion baptized evangelizing, yet not well read, born again believer. It was in my attempts to become a more faithful servant I endeavored to read the bible resulting in my current skepticism.
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 3:57 PM
Some people, not just Christians, see athiesm as subversive, which is part of their fear. Atheism is dangerous because it implicitly denies the “all men are created equal” basis for the revolution, while reducing believers, who are of the majority, to unwashed masses that chose ignorance over reason and who must be made to succum to reason over faith.
If equality comes from a creator who made us all in his image and loves all whom he creates, then Jeffersonian equality is indeed self evident. But with the advent of evolution and natural selection, equality is undermined to the extent that inequality is accepted a self evident and government power becomes a necessary resource to bring about equality.
Yet, the basis for self government and the individual’s right to vote is a self-evident fact that people are born equal without government help and remain so in civic life regardless of who he/she grows up to be (outside of being a fellon). That fact is derived by faith in a creator. Logically, if we are not created, only bundles of naturally-selected qualities, then we are not predestined to be equal nor do we live and die equally.
“Letting go of God” leaves us only with the illusion of equality in the face of the reality of predestined advantages (or disadvantages) passed from parents to child. If God doesn’t exist, our nation’s foundation exists only in the myth of equality. Either way, the concept of equality among mankind is founded strictly on the basis of faith.
shuzilla on April 2, 2007 at 4:00 PM
Except that God created sin, the relationship, the angels, heaven, earth, and us. He’s omnipotent, but created us with the capability of sinning against him. He then punishes us for his mistake.
God is the bully asking us why we’re punching ourselves as he holds us in a headlock and pummels us with our own right arms.
And for the record, I’m one of those non-angry, non-Marxist atheists.
PeteRR on April 2, 2007 at 4:03 PM
You need to get out more.
Dumb, as in calling atheists “hypersensitive dicks” and “Marxist pricks” dumb, or dumb as in I’m not really all that clever so I’ll compensate by calling names, dumb?
I know some atheists who are “moronic libs” and I know some atheists who are conservative. Yes, there are those out there on the fringe, but they’re just that, the fringe. Those idiots are to us, as to what abortion clinic bombers and Fred Phelps’ group are to you.
HINT: Not representative of the bigger/majority picture.
nosliwelyk on April 2, 2007 at 4:04 PM
So? When you were a Christian you believed ignorantly. And now you expect us to believe that you have changed.
Lucifer was once an angel. To say that you were once a “faithful servant” is completely useless for the purpose of this discussion.
Numbers 31:17:
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man
The women are not children. That much is clear. God is not arguing that any little girls should be killed.
But yes, God is commanding that His people kill all of the boys. Regardless of how you feel about the times, they are important.
In this day and age, little boys do not grow up with thoughts of avenging their father’s murder. They are not honor bound to do so. In that day, they were. It’s really just that simple. To allow a boy whose father you’ve killed in battle to grow up among you is to invite disaster into your midst, to invite a civil war.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 4:10 PM
You don’t seem “non-angry” when you’re calling God a bully. Then again, I do not know your feelings on bullies.
For the record though, God did not create sin. As God is Holy, God cannot even be near sin at all. By definition He could not have created sin.
Sin was born of disobedience, for that is precisely what sin is. This is why the tree Adam and Eve ate from opened their eyes to sin, not because it was magical but because they had disobeyed God. It was in that act that they brought sin into our world.
And seriously, it’s a mistake for God to allow us to sin? You’d rather we had no choice in the matter? Why even bother living if you cannot choose to make a mistake? Would you want to live if your every action was predetermined so as to prevent you from making a mistake?
God forbid I ever live a life where I’m not allowed to screw around if I choose. God forbid that I can never choose good over evil. Without being able to choose evil, we cannot choose good.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 4:16 PM
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 3:28 PM
Seriously this obession with dead children is unhealthy. Not all first born are children. I am my mother’s first born, but I’m hardly a child. Also, “innocent” is a subjective term
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 4:16 PM
But then again is it really a free choice Esthier with the threat of an eternity spent in hell? If hell weren’t in the picture would you still choose the same path?
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 4:21 PM
I’m not even going to bother reading the debate, because frankly Rick Warren is an embarassment, and I’m not sure why he’s not rolling around Syria in Pelosi, praising the leadership again.
Anyway
Allah, are you one with the universe?
RightWinged on April 2, 2007 at 4:23 PM
It was after being part of a humanitarian relief operation that brought me back to God. Ironically, it was Muslim on Muslim violence,two decades ago, before even the Yugoslavian breakup. It was Christians who stood between the two Muslims groups and brought water, food and medical help to those suffering in refugee camps. It was primarily Christians who sheltered hundreds of people who they didn’t know in their homes and even offices and faced down the gangs pounding at their doors at night. The rhetoric of “we are all Muslim brothers” didn’t jive with the brutal mob violence that was being conducted against free Africans, carried out primarily by slave Africans directed by their overlord masters. You don’t see that kind of scenario in the US ever. What prepares you for that?
It happened very fast without warning – no one knew at 9:00 am in the morning that just one hour later, the place was going to fall apart – as unexpected as an earthquake. This is typical of what regular folks did during that time: A Christian pastor was just at his front gate when a man ran down the street, followed by a baying mob. THe man saw the pastor, not knowing who he was and grabbed him, crying, “Help me!” The pastor had no idea what was was going on, who this man was, and was surrounded by ten furiously murderous men. He heard the accusation, that the man’s crime was his nationality. That’s it. The pastor took a deep breath, his family just inside the house, the mob ready to take them both apart, even invade his property, and lied. He said, “No, he isn’t.” He made a show of inspecting the man’s ID, which showed he was indeed of that condemned nationality and lied again, “No.” The mob backed off, the pastor brought the man into his house and sheltered him among his family, for a week, until he could be evacuated safely. In the space of 12 hours, people went from simple daily routines, to making life and death decisions – and having to choose right from wrong. When is it right for a Christian to violate the commandmant, “Thou shalt not bear false witness?” Can we ask the Christians who stood facing the Nazis at their doors and told them, “There are no Jews in my house,” while ten were hiding in their attic?
Thus, I can see why the cotton candy which makes up the sustenance of many US churches didn’t engage you. Remember that there will a time when they will preach what the people’s itching ears want to hear. That isn’t the Truth, just sounds sort of like it, enough to satisfy people with no cares or worries.
naliaka on April 2, 2007 at 4:26 PM
What makes them innocent? According to the Bible none of us are innocent.
No, God’s Grace is not fair. All of us should die. I reconcile that one the only way I know how, using what I’ve been given, knowing I don’t deserve it.
I’m not arguing that He changes. But clearly the way He presents His message does. Is that not allowed? You have problems accepting a god that you cannot place within your own box of preconceived notions.
Behavior is not righteous. If I give someone everything I own only to keep it from going to someone else who has a rightful claim to it, is my deed righteous?
It’s the box thing again. You cannot accept that which you do not understand. Deeds are ONLY righteous because of the intent behind them.
And for that God has not changed and will never change. His deeds change, but that doesn’t mean He has changed. His intent all along has been the same.
Just because you do not understand the methods He is using to do the above does not prove He is doing anything but what He said He would do.
He knows more than you do.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 4:27 PM
Hell is nothing more than an eternity without God. It is hell because human beings were made to be near God. The fire and brimstone are inconsequential to the actual separation.
So basically, yes, I’d make the same decision, because the one that I have made allows me to experience the closest thing to heaven that I will ever be able to experience on this planet. Being a Christian allows me to have a relationship with Christ, just not one as great as it will be in heaven.
Hell is largely misunderstood. It isn’t a threat. It simply allowing free will. If you do not want to be with Christ, He won’t force you.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 4:31 PM
nosliwelyk, let’s break this down
Most Atheists I’ve had the dispeasure of being around/reading/speaking to HAVE viewed us as clinic bombers and Phelps nutbar brigades, or at least insufferable Fundie pricks, and the most of the rest just treat religious with bitter contempt, which is what grates at me, I don’t treat atheists with bitter contempt unless they’re asking for it.
I’m speaking about MY experiences with Atheists I’VE DEALT WITH. No one else, so maybe non-prick atheists are around in good numbers, that said, I haven’t met many. I said Allah was cool.
Dude, I seriously hope so. And I hope the non-prick atheists get better PR, you might be the mainstream, but your radicals totally control your PR wing.
Bad Candy on April 2, 2007 at 4:31 PM
All logic is circular. You’re either dependent on yourself as the final judge of truth or error or you’re dependent on the Bible, or some other religious texts. Atheists choose to be dependent on themselves or science. Ultimately, you’re fallible (so is science), so making yourself the final authority is unwise.
I wasn’t pointing you to the other arguments on the Tektonics site, just the ones on canonicity. You could have determined what orthodox Christians believe about it if you were interested. You’re not, because you’re committed to being the final authority.
PRCalDude on April 2, 2007 at 4:34 PM
and you think the young virgins held no contempt towards the men that just slaughtered their mothers, fathers, brothers, etc and proceeded to rape them after the fact? Noo I guess they would just be grateful they were allowed to birth the children of their oppressors.
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 4:35 PM
You’ll have to produce proof of any Godly approval or any command to rape to maintain that statement. Don’t see it. It isn’t implied either. Captive girls were brought in as servants to the households, typical for the time, no rape whatsoever. It’s rather harsh to assert otherwise, especially with the many commandmants of how Israelites were to live, different than their neighbors.
naliaka on April 2, 2007 at 4:41 PM
Back’atcha…
… Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, anyone on TBN, Fred Phelps, etc.
nosliwelyk on April 2, 2007 at 4:46 PM
Exactly. Find the verse that commands forcing a woman to have sex and we can go from there.
But you’d probably be right in assuming they aren’t pleased about losing their family. That’s not what I was talking about though. The difference is that they weren’t starting wars over it.
If anything, the Bible points to stories of women who HELPED Israel destroy their town in exchange for their lives.
They could have turned the spies in and gotten them killed, but those women decided to trust the strangers while betraying their own.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 4:47 PM
I’ve even learned, thanks to this thread, that even the purposefully-driven Rick Warren doesn’t have it right…
nosliwelyk on April 2, 2007 at 4:49 PM
The problem with people who claim God is somehow evil or a “bully” or unrighteous because God has ordered the killing of “innocents” is that those people are viewing morality through their own eyes and applying that self-made morality to judge God. There are two responses to that:
1. It is not up to the created to judge the creator.
2. God does not view death as an “end” as an athiest must. God is not temporal and God knows that death is not an “end” just a transition. For those of us who believe God is perfect and just, we believe that God will show that perfection and justice even to those “innocents” he ordered killed.
There can be no meeting of the minds between those whose belief’s require that death be the end and those who view death as just moving on to the remainder of eternity, nor between those who view our mortal lives as all there is and those who view our mortal lives as an incredibly brief moment in our existance.
Fatal on April 2, 2007 at 4:51 PM
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 4:52 PM
Maybe we should meet for a beer sometime then. I’m in Raleigh, NC. You?
nosliwelyk on April 2, 2007 at 4:56 PM
Heh. Can we mention the inconvenient truth that Rahab was a shrine prostitute, and from her sympathetic behavior to the Israelites, we can perhaps surmise that to put it delicately, she was not feeling particularly fulfilled by that degrading job, forced on her by her own culture and was very interested in finding a way out of it?
naliaka on April 2, 2007 at 4:56 PM
the first link didn’t take and it is excellent in portraying what it is to diligently seek God and to know in your heart of hearts that you know God.
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 4:58 PM
and it still didn’t take ugh. try this
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=72552
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 4:59 PM
I apparently need link posting help.
Here is the link for PRCal on the NT canon
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 5:03 PM
Burning of what? Our spirit? Bodies decay where they are laid to rest.
But even if the burning of our spirit is the burning of actual flesh, it is nothing in comparison to the feeling of being apart from God. That’s the entire point.
Jesus speaks of heaven and hell like virgins waiting for the bridegroom.
The tragedy in this story is that they missed the bridegroom, not that they were left outside in a fire. Fire is least often invoked by Christ in explaining the situation.
This could either be because the flame itself is metaphorical, a description of what it feels like emotionally, or because the flames are nothing compared to being shut out from God. Either way, it’s not the thing to worry about.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 5:04 PM
They all suck ass. Can’t stand the evangelical leadership, all the pompous greater than thou elitist attitude of our upper Catholic clergy, without the cool looking churches and hats. Phelps should be flayed alive and left to bakein the desert sun for what he’s done to gays and military families. Falwell never hadmy respect. And at least TBN is funny, albeit unintentionally so, its better than most of the leftist dreck coming out of Comedy Central, with the exception of South Park.
Heh, I’m in Central Pennsylvania, so it probably won’t happen, but it looks like we reached common ground. Cheers anyway!
Bad Candy on April 2, 2007 at 5:06 PM
Was Rahab trusting in strangers or had she heard of the atrocities committed by the Israelites in their conquest and just wanted to save her own skin?
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 5:07 PM
Well, I’ll drink a Yuengling to you anyway…
nosliwelyk on April 2, 2007 at 5:08 PM
Ahh metaphors Esthier but then which verses are we to interpret as metaphors and which are to be taken literally? The ones that make you feel good vs the ones that make you cringe.
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 5:09 PM
Oh, and Robertson’s such a joke its unbelievable. He’s like the evangelical John Murtha or Robert Byrd. Senile, and every time he opens his mouth its like “Oh God, can we just put him in a home, please?”
Bad Candy on April 2, 2007 at 5:10 PM
Heh. You’re at least familiar with PA if you know Yeungling. Maybe I’ll have to hit a sub&six and get some.
Bad Candy on April 2, 2007 at 5:13 PM
DOn’t get that impression at all from the scripture passages. She did however ask for relief for her family not to be slaughtered, so she did have a consideration for them that went beyond herself, which was respected. Why describe the Israelite success in pitched battles against attacking tribes as atrocities? Why rag on the Israelites for doing same or less than their neighbors would have done to them? They didn’t have the Geneva Conventions back then. It was brutal. The tribal groups in that area were engaged in some pretty horrific stuff as part of their own worship traditions, which the overwhelming majority of modern people would be appalled by and condemn in no uncertain terms. Don’t pretend that the Midianites and the Cannanites and so forth were all nicey nicey. Sacrificial customs, including child sacrifice, and shrine prostitution were all elements stated by God as despicable and disgusting. You disagree that God was right to call such practices vile? These all crept into Israelite culture over time and corrupted their worship and their daily lives, so much that God was moved on several occasions to warn the Israelites to cease and desist or face punishment. They were hammered several times for ignoring His warnings.
naliaka on April 2, 2007 at 5:27 PM
Are you asking me to read a dead person’s mind? Either way, she had more faith in those two spies than she had in her own people. She had faith that they would spare her, which isn’t something any story she may or may not have heard could have told her.
So maybe she’d heard how horrible they were, but obviously she also thought they would protect her better than her own.
I don’t know. Maybe you should decide since you’re so great at selectively reading what others write.
I didn’t say it was a metaphore. I’ve only said that it’s possible to read it that way.
But clearly Jesus isn’t talking about any fire you or I know about, because fire does not burn eternally and it cannot continue to cause pain to a body once the nerves are burned off.
Then again, we don’t have a concept of forever either. So the whole thing is a bit of a mystery.
The only known is that it is eternal separation from God. Maybe human beings literally become a never-ending human torch with flame resistant nerves upon separating from God. Or maybe the flames are something else entirely.
To concentrate on the flames themselves though is to miss the point entirely. The worst thing to come from hell is separation from God.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 5:29 PM
And just so you know, the knowledge that people intentionally reject God in favor of hell is not something that makes me feel good.
You may be flipping out over the fire, but it is inconsequential compared to life without God. If it exists or if it doesn’t really has no meaning.
If hell was eternal fires but NOT separation from God, it would not be hell. It would be better than life here.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 5:33 PM
I don’t know why this statement makes me laugh at loud. If you didn’t read anything, on what grounds did you get baptized, on what inspiration did you base your “devote”ness and with what exactly did you evangelize?
naliaka on April 2, 2007 at 5:41 PM
Good point. Though I have to say I’ve known people like that who called themselves Christians. They bothered me more than anyone.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 5:47 PM
Which facts do you choose to believe, the ones for or against the Christian God? Why do you find the facts against compelling?
PRCalDude on April 2, 2007 at 5:50 PM
All your links are broken BTW
PRCalDude on April 2, 2007 at 5:51 PM
Esthier,
:D
Don’t see this going much of anywhere, for obvious reasons, but truly hope other readers enjoyed the debate, and got some real background, not addlepated rumor.
naliaka on April 2, 2007 at 5:53 PM
Went to the link. Its a bunch of stuff that’s all been answered: Q documents, harmonization, Markan hypothesis, Jerusalem temple destruction, etc. Not interesting.
PRCalDude on April 2, 2007 at 6:01 PM
I’m always late to all the good topics :(
Nonfactor on April 2, 2007 at 6:03 PM
Beats me. Others’ relationships with God completely confound me.
I only hope that people never quit looking, even Christians. Don’t take any information you have for granted.
Esthier on April 2, 2007 at 6:08 PM
Even atheists can accept that the concept of god is an important topic that plays a major role in the lives of theists and non theists alike. Why shouldn’t atheists want to discuss the logic (or lack thereof) behind religion?
AP gave a better answer at 11:07 AM
The problem with that argument is that there are no verifiable miracles that cannot be explained logically. Sure, there are some in The Bible, but how are we sure those really occurred? Because The Bible says they occurred? Not happening, buddy.
Zetterson on April 2, 2007 at 11:31 AM
Agreed.
Nonfactor on April 2, 2007 at 6:32 PM
Ya’ll are thinking about something like the whomping, split the Red Sea sort of thing, aren’t you?
The miracle that convinces the atheist is that staggering, stunned, utterly personal, terrifyingly lonely moment when he realizes that he’s alive, but by all rights, shouldn’t be. John Newton experienced it in the middle of the deep blue sea, as his battered ship settled down after a horrific storm. That would be toughened, hard-drinking and wild living slave-ship sailor, turned fervent anti-slavery abolitionist John Newton who wrote Amazing Grace.
In the meantime, there’s nothing much else to say in meager words that would convince anyone.
naliaka on April 2, 2007 at 6:53 PM
I was born & raised Catholic went to private school and church every weekend and every holiday. I had some difficulty with the various rules of the church. One of which being that the church never provided me with a bible. Sermons were generally pulled from NT sources. I was more than familiar with the great stories of bible from the creation to the resurrection. I never questioned their veracity.
I thought there had to be more to God then the Catholic church so I went searching and found a fairly fundamental Baptist church. No speaking in tongues though. The preacher taught from the bible and it spoke to my heart. He provided scriptures to view with his sermons and everyone brought their bibles to Sunday school in the morning, sunday service, then evening Sunday service then again on Wednesday evening. After 8 or 9 months I felt compelled to step forward, profess and accept Jesus as savior during one of the alter calls. I was baptized shortly after. I was content that I had followed God’s calling and secured my spot in heaven during the hereafter. I felt compelled to share my experience with others.
Many years went by and I felt it was time for me to seek a deeper understanding of God’s word and make sure I was doing all I could do. Of course in doing so I was eventually to read many passages I had never been exposed to, inconsistiences, character flaws, and a multitude of other pinprick holes that ultimately lead to my current skepticism of scripture.
So anyway you feel compelled to mock my conversion because I am skeptical about your beliefs having been there done that all I can do is shrug.
You feel the need to argue, justify, rationalize that God is both righteous and justified in killing innocent children because he is God and all that God does is good. I argue that the mere fact that an immoral behavior requires the apologists to justify it indicates lack of inspiration.
Though I don’t yet accept the human race emerged from the primordial ooze I have difficulty now accepting the moral code of the Biblical God.
frreal on April 2, 2007 at 7:13 PM
Rick Warren and Sam Harris? Reading this debate would be like watching the special olympics…
Darth Executor on April 2, 2007 at 7:18 PM
I argue simply that you’ve read it wrong if you come to the conclusion that God takes innocent life in such as crass manner. If God gives life, then He can take it whenever He choses. If the life in question is indeed innocent, then nothing but eternal security and peace and love is the fate of the innocent child or adult. What is so horrible about that?
AS far as babies go, yeh, none have sinned because they haven’t had the chance. However, God is able to see things we can’t. Adolph Hitler was a cute baby, but he sure didn’t grow up into a nice adult. If you or I had been able to see the nasty character inside that adorable little bundle, we would have probably shuddered. God is just. If you were to be privy to the things He sees that we don’t you would end up agreeing that He judges fairly.
naliaka on April 2, 2007 at 7:32 PM
Miracles are happening today. It’s just that the ones who witness them end up believing and then their word is not accepted because they are now believers and their word isn’t considered reliable. I know personally people who have gone overseas on missionary trips who have seen miraculous healings. These are people who I know would not lie but because they are Christians no one believes them outside of the church.
Rose on April 2, 2007 at 9:44 PM
I read it simply as it is written. I don’t know what can be more crass then God telling men to smite the little ones with swords, or did they smother them, or perhaps they just burned them alive when they burned the city? I fail to see the mercy. Though punishement of innocent is more than evident. You and Esthier rationalize that its ok to kill the little boys because they MIGHT avenge deaths. Absurd logic. Of course with your rational we ought to just kill all the innocent before they reach the age of accountability thus guaranteeing them their eternal security. Comforting thoughts no doubt.
frreal on April 3, 2007 at 12:46 AM
Displaying some interesting leaps of logic in that statement. Interesting as in incredibly nasty. You are reading things in that don’t belong, and using that to smear those who object to your point of view.
AS far as your “conversion” goes, just never saw one so riddled with cliches.
naliaka on April 3, 2007 at 10:55 AM
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2