Your point being?

Nonfactor on April 3, 2007 at 12:03 PM

I was quite clear in my point. Just because you chose to only quote one line, doesn’t mean the whole point wasn’t fully explained.

You’re seeing a correlation in some nations with their belief in a god to their economy and making the judgment that they must have bad economies because of the majority of the populations beliefs. There is no evidence to back up your claim.

Let me quote your original post so people can see how absurd it is:

Think about almost every country where Spanish is the primary language. How are things in Latin America? Generally, it’s a mess down there with a few eceptions like Chile. How you view God and the world really matters.

Need I point out again that almost 90% of Mexicans are Catholic and their economy isn’t doing as well as other Catholic countries?

Your worldview, your Godview, and the purpose that you believe for your existence matter tremendously when it comes to world politics. When it comes to the Middle East things are going to get far, far, worse before they get better.

Anyone can make a claim like you did right there, but it doesn’t make it true.

As for WMD’s… Hey Sadam, nice bluff!

It was all the top Democrats.

Your point being?

You like to whine about how the WMDs weren’t there

RightWinged on April 3, 2007 at 5:35 AM

A totally asinine argument, I agree.

A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention….

You can bash Clinton all you want (rightfully so) for mistakingly thinking there were WMDs in Iran, but Clinton didn’t invade, Bush did. The blame is put on Bush for invading and too bad for him that Iraq ended up not having any WMDs.

Nonfactor on April 3, 2007 at 3:19 AM

I’m not bashing Clinton, I think he was right to spend his administration making the WMD case, then making regime change in Iraq American policy, and then attacking them in December of 1998. That’s not bashing, it’s stating a fact…

But it wasn’t just Clinton. It was those who have called him a liar. It was Kennedy. It was Rockefeller (who by the way visited Syria among other countries in the region a year before the invasion, telling the leaders that he thought Bush was determined to go to war.) It was Kerry who I can specifically give you quotes for 13 years, right up until practically Shock and Awe. It was Hillary. It was Albright (who has said even after the Dems turned on the war that she was convinced they had WMDs)… Do I need to go on? It was all the top Democrats.

But that’s not even the point, you liberals do this everytime. You like to whine about how the WMDs weren’t there (I don’t see that you’ve said “lied” here, though I have no doubt that you have before and probably do among your liberal friends regularly). But again, that’s off the point.. This is how it always goes with you bait and switch libs – You guys complain that we shouldn’t have gone because Saddam didn’t have WMDs – We point out that all of your favorite top Democrats made an even stronger WMD case for many more years than Bush ever did – You in turn change the complaint to “but they didn’t invade, Bush did”. It’s one of the other buddy.

Do I simply take the word of the aptly named NON-FACT-er, Nonfactor, or do I believe my own eyes. A difficult choice indeed.

Let me make this clear to all of you holdouts: This is a conspiracy theory not rooted in reality.

Nonfactor on April 3, 2007 at 3:19 AM

OK! Make it clear. I’m afraid that it is going to take more than just your mere denial to make me believe that my own eyes lied to me.

Mojave Mark on April 3, 2007 at 3:25 AM

They why did you bring up Spanish at all? And what proof do you have that the “godview” of people in South America is what makes them economically worse off? Don’t 90% of the people in Mexico claim to be Catholic? Going by your logic they should be similar to Vatican City, or at least Italy.

This is a fallacy. What does speaking Spanish have to do with economical success or religion? And correlation does not equal causation.

I didn’t say it was because of the Spanish language but rather their worldview which leads to all the problems. Think of Africa too. Rich and abundant with resources far beyond the other continents yet it’s a perenial mess. Why? Worldview.

because it was his boys and girls who spent 13 years making the case leading up to the war

RightWinged on April 2, 2007 at 11:22 PM

You can bash Clinton all you want (rightfully so) for mistakingly thinking there were WMDs in Iran, but Clinton didn’t invade, Bush did. The blame is put on Bush for invading and too bad for him that Iraq ended up not having any WMDs.

I do have a leg to stand on. Who cares what case people made before 2002? You’re supposed to get new intelligence over time, analyze that intelligence, and then act upon it. Bush’s crowd analyzed it and was wrong. I can’t believe the two people arguing with me still believe Iraq had WMDs, and they’re telling me that I don’t have a leg to stand on.

Think about almost every country where Spanish is the primary language. How are things in Latin America? Generally, it’s a mess down there with a few eceptions like Chile. How you view God and the world really matters.

Get it? Your worldview, your Godview, and the purpose that you believe for your existence matter tremendously when it comes to world politics.

Mojave Mark on April 3, 2007 at 12:39 AM

This is a fallacy. What does speaking Spanish have to do with economical success or religion? And correlation does not equal causation.

There were satellite photos broadcast of extensive Iraqi convoys headed into Syria 2-3 days before the 2003 invasion. There have been several independent intel confirmations (including from a Russian defector and a now ‘friendly’ Iraqi general who were both actually part of the evacuation) that there were lots of completed WMDs and WMD components in those convoys (and airlifts) into Syria.

LegendHasIt on April 3, 2007 at 2:15 AM

Let me make this clear to all of you holdouts: This is a conspiracy theory not rooted in reality.

It has been over a year since (those of us paying attention, anyway) saw actual video of their big centrifuge facility that was 85% completed at the time.
————————————————

As far as the Iraq WMD situation:
There were satellite photos broadcast of extensive Iraqi convoys headed into Syria 2-3 days before the 2003 invasion. There have been several independent intel confirmations (including from a Russian defector and a now ‘friendly’ Iraqi general who were both actually part of the evacuation) that there were lots of completed WMDs and WMD components in those convoys (and airlifts) into Syria.

As to why the President (and everyone else who should be shouting it from the rooftops) is going along with the ‘no WMDs’ meme, I can’t begin to understand…. Oh, I can think of several reasons that they might rationalize not talking about it, but none of them make as much political sense anymore.

Well, enough of me torturing the English language for a while.

Think about almost every country where Spanish is the primary language. How are things in Latin America? Generally, it’s a mess down there with a few eceptions like Chile. How you view God and the world really matters.

Think about everywhere on the planet that English is the primary language. How are things in those countries?

Get it? Your worldview, your Godview, and the purpose that you believe for your existence matter tremendously when it comes to world politics. When it comes to the Middle East things are going to get far, far, worse before they get better.

Sorry RightWinged, I wasn’t trying to offer him a pass….
but behind closed doors I am sure that the WMD argument had both sides convinced (I still believe it). Saddam and all he harbored needed killing. That was the real bottom line.
That argument gets you only two answers, yes or no. All this he said/she said/they said stuff is wearing me out….I am sick of tired of all the pussyfooting. We either kill the SOBs or stay home and wimper.

Limerick on April 2, 2007 at 11:28 PM

Don’t worry, I didn’t interpret you as giving Nonfactor a pass at all, I’m just a hardliner in believe that the WMDs were there, and obsess about it more than is healthy.

The problem with this is we didn’t tell it like it was….
we didn’t go to Iraq for WMD…….we went to Iraq to kill what needed killin……..if we would have laid it out like that in the first damn place nonfactors crowd wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

Limerick on April 2, 2007 at 11:16 PM

Nonfactor’s crowd doesn’t have a leg to stand on as it is, because it was his boys and girls who spent 13 years making the case leading up to the war… the problem is that the media has hidden this fact from the public, allowing a division in the country. The Dems and media are running divide and conquer strategy for the enemy, and that’s the problem. They are emboldened by promises of surrender and by hyping and lying in the news all day every day.

In reality, there is no leg for NF’s side to stand on… but perception is everything. It’s sad that the wars in Washington determines the outcome of real wars.

Nonfactor on April 2, 2007 at 10:57 PM

The problem with this is we didn’t tell it like it was….
we didn’t go to Iraq for WMD…….we went to Iraq to kill what needed killin……..if we would have laid it out like that in the first damn place nonfactors crowd wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.

Even the U.S. government has admitted that there were no WMDs and still some people can’t accept the fact that we went to Iraq for a false purpose.

Nonfactor on April 2, 2007 at 10:57 PM

It’s just a little hard to believe, given that Democrats spent 13 years leading up to the war, making the WMD case stronger than Bush ever did. (yeah, especially the ones that call him a liar today)

I first read about him here, and there have been similar articles at other papers since
http://www.nysun.com/article/27183

More importantly he set up his own site where it seemed he wasn’t going to let the issue die, and was talking all about his first hand experiences as it pertains to being ignored when asking that the sites be inspected, etc.

Oddly, he’s removed all reference to these sections of his site from the main page now
http://www.davegaubatz.com/

This is more than a little disturbing… but I am able to link you to some of the pages, simply by doing a site search on the term “iraq”:

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu.dcuhFGGOEAcwBXNyoA?p=iraq+site%3Adavegaubatz.com&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&n=10&fl=0&vm=p&x=wrt

Check some of that information out… Food for though, directly from someone who was on the ground and charged with locating WMDs.

He had asssurances from France, Germany and Russia until the very end that they’d save him. After 12 years of appeasement who could blame him for believing them? From what I’ve read about Saddam he was completely irrational and could’ve been described as having been quite literally insane. During the Gulf War he was semi-convinced he could win. His generals were too scared to tell him the truth.

aengus on April 2, 2007 at 9:54 PM

Exactly.

As for why Saddam didn’t use them, we know why… He didn’t think we’d really take him down.

He had asssurances from France, Germany and Russia until the very end that they’d save him. After 12 years of appeasement who could blame him for believing them? From what I’ve read about Saddam he was completely irrational and could’ve been described as having been quite literally insane. During the Gulf War he was semi-convinced he could win. His generals were too scared to tell him the truth.

I have read/heard about the truck convoys from Iraq to Syria just before the liberation. I believe that WMDs and/or WMD-related equipment were very likely moved across the border. But why hasn’t anyone used them yet? That’s what confuses me. I’m really surprised that they haven’t unleashed something unspeakable on Israel by now. I’m also surprised that Saddam apparently sent his big guns away instead of using them to defend against the United States. Was he hoping we would come in much more hesitantly, and that once we saw that there were no WMDs he could get them back? And why Syria? Isn’t Syria basically Iran’s mini-me? Iran and Iraq certainly aren’t allies.

But if Iran is in possession of programs, scientists, and equipment that Saddam had already moved pretty far along, that could explain why Iran seems to be moving so much faster with its nuclear program than our intelligence seemed to expect.

aero on April 2, 2007 at 8:48 PM

There is A LOT of evidence that Saddam did have the WMDs, despite liberals insisting it’s just one former general trying to sell a book. There are satellite photos of trucks going across the border, reports of Russian military trucks moving them, 2 generals saying they were taken to Syria, and reports every few months in the first year that they were moved… stories that seemed to never have been followed up on. And a U.S. official in charge of locating the WMDs insisting he identified locations in the first year of the war, but was constantly ignored. He believes they are still there, or have by now possibly been moved since no action was ever taken by the higher ups to confirm his findings.

I just wish Bush would grow a pair and talk about all of this, and I can only guess he knows much much more. Some claim that he hasn’t because it would embarass Russia and we’re desperately trying to keep them on our side in dealing with Iran.

As for why Saddam didn’t use them, we know why… He didn’t think we’d really take him down. He was confident that we’d do something similar to what we did in the first Gulf War, and not actually take and occupy Iraq and end his reign. This is known. So in his mind, if he used the WMDs, he’d have sealed his fate. He’d have been the bad guy, we’d have been the heros. He thought he’d come out of this on top, with us looking like the bad guys.

As for why whoever ended up with them hasn’t used them… It all depends on who actually has them now. I’m also not totally convinced that we don’t have some CIA type folks (but probably not exactly CIA) tracking the stuff, and may have already rounded it up. I just find it hard to believe we could have screwed up that badly, and let it slip through our fingers. It’s obviously possible, and actually seems likely, that we did screw up that badly… but I’m just not totally convinced we haven’t picked this stuff up.