I am a current LDS person and not some person without the guts to stick things out like ex-mormon’s, so I would be thrilled to discredit you. The other person had you pegged absolutly and completely.

Ouch. My email address: sungo3000@yahoo.com I’ve got plenty of guts;)

As for those asking questions about what we have done to stop Roe vs Wade…what do you suggest?… Any of your religious but political folks been able to stop it?

Noelie on March 13, 2007 at 10:54 PM

Don’t take my comments too personally because I feel the same way about all the GOP presidential hopefuls seeking nomination right now.

My question was not about what religion has done but what elected political leaders have done. What have LDS political leaders like Senator Hatch done over the last 20 years in context of overturning abortion laws? What has Romney done? What have the others done?

Hatch has voted on abortion issues at least 20 times since 1994, taking a solid pro-life stance. Which is good, even though he has initiated no pro-life bills or resolutions on his own.

Romney says he is against abortion, but his views on challenging the legality of Roe vs. Wade are pretty weak right now. And he, like Hatch, has initiated no anti-abortion legislation on his own.

Regardless of how anti-abortion Hatch, Romney or the other candidates are personally, I have absolutely no expectations that any of them will initiate any abortion reform in a pro-life manner, regardless of how pro-life their constituents may be.

>>>>

As to what do I suggest?

Overturn Roe vs Wade. It is a bad law and it is a bad precedent.

Abortion on demand is culturally reprehensible. A country dedicated to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness doesn’t deserve any of it if we refuse to protect the lives of our youngest and most innocent citizens.

Let’s talk about the facts shall we? Or do you want to take this to a Mormon apologetic’s or Ex-Mo board? I’m sure everyone doesn’t want to see us air out the Church’s dirty laundry here or do they? Polygamy? Joseph Smith? Brigham Young? Adam-God Doctrine? The Kinderhook plates? The Mountain Meadow Massacre? The historic, genetic, linguistic, and archaeological contradictions of the Book of Mormon? Masonic ritual and Blood Atonement Oaths and Rituals in the Temple ceremony until 92’? Should I go on

I am a current LDS person and not some person without the guts to stick things out like ex-mormon’s, so I would be thrilled to discredit you. The other person had you pegged absolutly and completely. Of course I was explaining to my dad that to my shame and horror, that supposedly kind conservative sites like that still damage one of their own because of your own religions intolerance and bigotry

As to your supposition about the other stuff, that laundry is aired so continuously and with the forever droning of the those anti-LDS or ex/anti-LDS like yourself, I would beg to ask what the difference is? I haven’t seen where it STOPS. It goes on so much none of you have noticed since the first ex/anti Mormon wrote his first book that there have been answers.

None of you really care. But NO. the headquarters do not tell him what to do.

As for those asking questions about what we have done to stop Roe vs Wade…what do you suggest? All I know is that we have the lowest statistic on that particular procedure. What has your religion done? Anything worthwhile? Any of your religious but political folks been able to stop it? All we can do at this point is tell our children that abortion is not an answer and then live it.

Heh. I suspected that, despite Bryan’s warning, anti-Mormon trolls would still find a way to infiltrate this thread. Roark is indulging in airing clearly personal issues dressed up as political ones. You wouldn’t rely on a bitter ex-Catholic exclusively for info about that church; or a self hating Jew (such as described by David Mamet in his book “The Wicked Son”) alone for insights about Judaism. I think over the next 18 months when people get a balanced,rational look at Mormon beliefs they will find a lot to like and admire, even if they choose not to get much more involved with the church. The anti-Mormon rhetoric which shows up on conservative political blogs only pollutes the atmosphere with hate. If you would really vote for Romney despite his religion, they why keep obsessing with disinformation about Mormon doctrine in forums like these?

WasatchMan on March 13, 2007 at 8:17 PM

Well first, I’m really kicking myself in the ass for even opening my mouth up on this thread. I honestly and truthfully apologize; this was obviously the wrong forum, and for that I’m truly sorry.

If you read my original post, there is nothing “anti-Mormon” about it. I was merely stating my opinion, that the very dialogue (in which you have now called me an “anti-Mormon troll”, “bitter”, a “hate polluter”, as well as making possible comparisons to me as a “self hating Mormon” and/or a “wicked son”, by referencing that specific book), we are engaging in, is/and will take place across the country because of Mitt running.

Second point. I have not called anyone here names, nor linked to any anti-Mormon or ex-Mormon (you can’t classify everyone who is ex-, as anti-, that’s false) websites, and have intentionally not made any specific claims as a blatant attempt to “satisfy a grudge”. The only specifics I mentioned about regarding Benson were only in response to the implication of me being some weird conspiracy theorist, so I could show my rationale and evidence for my original post.

Finally, I do not “obsess with disinformation” on this topic. Like I said, I have never posted on anything even concerning Mormonism until these last 4 posts and I’ve been here for a while. I’m sorry you took my posts as offensive to you. I was not trying to spread hate or “personal issues dressed up as political” ones. I will leave it at that. I hope that the random observer who is detached from Mormonism on either side of the isle will see that my posts have not come off as defensive and morally absolute, unlike the ones that have been posted attacking me as a person, instead of taking issue with my actual views and opinions which I expressed. I obviously won’t do it again, unless it his explicitly related to topics and content in which AP, Bryan, and Ian blog about in the future.

Roark–see, it is people like you the libs are counting on to do their dirty work and impose a religious test on America. You clearly have a bitter grudge, and are doing your best to spread FUD; I would ask you to stop it.

Vanceone on March 13, 2007 at 4:14 PM

Well I’m sorry Vanceone, but I don’t have a bitter grudge and was trying to be as truthful as I could. Please correct me if I misstated anything above. I’m sorry if I struck a nerve regarding Mormonism, I have specifically avoided commenting on any of the Mitt/Mormon threads here at HA up until now, because people get too defensive. Again, I am not attacking Mormon people. The people I love most in this world are Mormon. However, the Mormon Church has serious issues, which have been swept under the rug for decades, and with a Mormon presidential candidate you are going to see Mormonism discussed whether you like it or not at level of scrutiny never seen before in the public eye. I also have no personal problem with Mitt being a Mormon! I completely recognize is right to practice whatever religion he may choose as a citizen of America. However, for me personally, I disagree with Mitt Romney/the politician, on many of his ideals, his “Kerryesque” voting record, and him implying that “faith” should be a necessary presidential qualification trait.

I would like to say though that “liberals” are not counting on people like me to do anything, haha! I despise every candidate they have to offer, which is why I love HA;)! If it came down to it, I would in fact still vote for Romney if he was the nominee against Hillary/Edwards/Obama/Gore and anyone else in that poor party who has announced. Lieberman would be the only Dem, I would even think about voting for, and we know how much the “liberals” love him, haha.

By the way, what is FUD?

I have never heard of an aborted child having been baptized in this fashion. It’s utter nonsense to think this would be condoned by the church.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on March 13, 2007 at 3:51 PM

Ding. I finally get what you’re trying to tell me. While Mormons do baptize the dead, it is for people who have died after birth, not before birth.

I respectfully recant my earlier mis-statements on this.

Also, as far as “converting people against their will”, that also is nonsense– baptizing is of no value whatsoever if the person doesn’t accept it. And that includes a dead person.

Who holds back the electric car,
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star!?
We do! We do!
Who robs capefish of their site,
Who rigs every Oscar night?!
We do! We do!

sweetlipsbutterhoney on March 13, 2007 at 2:32 PM

Oh no, are you a Mormon? I’m definitely not a conspiracy theorist, first off. So please don’t make false assumptions and throw disingenuous straw men statements out there trying to discredit me.

Let’s talk about the facts shall we? Or do you want to take this to a Mormon apologetic’s or Ex-Mo board? I’m sure everyone doesn’t want to see us air out the Church’s dirty laundry here or do they? Polygamy? Joseph Smith? Brigham Young? Adam-God Doctrine? The Kinderhook plates? The Mountain Meadow Massacre? The historic, genetic, linguistic, and archaeological contradictions of the Book of Mormon? Masonic ritual and Blood Atonement Oaths and Rituals in the Temple ceremony until 92’? Should I go on?

By the way, it has been very well documented that Ezra Taft Benson (via Steve Benson, his grandson. Who by the way has very interesting, verified correspondence letters with Dallin H. Oaks and Boyd K Packer which also furthers my point of what the Church leadership is capable of) was sadly “propped up” as Church prophet in his final years before he passed away by the likes of the Quorum of the Twelve (e.g. making public statements that he was still the prophet, seer, and revelator) specifically by Monson and Hinckley (e.g. Hinckley making sure “power of attorney” of church affairs was signed away while these public statements were yet being made about his health being fine and still leading the church), while in fact being quite mentally and physically incapacitated. This is the evidence I was going off of and shows that the Church leadership will take great measures to misrepresent the truth, in order to preserve a “good” image to the members. Asking Mitt to step out, in one way or the other, is quite plausible actually, but shall we wait and see what happens? Of course the general membership of the church wouldn’t know it, but it’s my hypothesis that Romney in fact won’t even make it to the convention.

Finally, this was my whole point in my last post. I’m sure that there’s a lot about the LDS church that many members don’t know. I sure didn’t. So if you want to talk Church then let’s talk Church, but please don’t insult my intelligence.

An aborted baby in Mormon culture can still be baptized into heaven after death, and believing in baptism after death is something the rest of Christendom soundly rejects.

I do not believe this is correct. I have never heard of such being done.

In my experience as a former Mormon, they are soundly pro-life.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on March 13, 2007 at 11:23 AM

It is common knowledge that Mormon baptize the dead all the time. It’s not even a debatable point. And I did clarify that Mormons are primarily ani-abortion.

However, what efforts have the LDS establishment, (Orin Hatch, Mitt Romney, etc.) made to reverse Roe vs. Wade? I suggest we do some checking on Hatch’s voting record on this. Also check out local politics in Utah and see how many abortion clinics are picketed and/or shut down through local grass-roots efforts.

All I can say, is that if Mitt doesn’t bow out early on (which I can almost guarantee he’ll do because of either personal faith struggles or at a “behind the scenes behest” of the leadership of the LDS Church),…

Roark on March 13, 2007 at 1:25 PM

That is hilarious. On that same note, I’m sure there were Mormons on the grassy knoll in Dallas. Mormons also crashed their flying saucer at Roswell. Mormons run Area 51. It’s all a big Mormon conspiracy!

Who holds back the electric car,
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star!?
We do! We do!
Who robs capefish of their site,
Who rigs every Oscar night?!
We do! We do!

I hear what you are saying Bryan, and absolutely believe your honest personal stance. However, I have serious doubts that the powerful Evangelical lobbying churches and pastors across the Bible belt feel the same. Also, the Hot Air message board the past few months has been a nice little barometer of the brimming anti-Mormon sentiment out there in the Evangelical crowd.

All I can say, is that if Mitt doesn’t bow out early on (which I can almost guarantee he’ll do because of either personal faith struggles or at a “behind the scenes behest” of the leadership of the LDS Church), Mormons are going to experience (maybe already starting to happen?) a very faith shattering experience over the next 6-18 months, with all of the sacred details of their doctrine and history being debated in the national media. Mormons (my own personal and extended family) have no idea what Mitt and “they” are walking into. Just my two cents.

I must say, given Hugh Hewitt has given this blog some attention in the past, it pains me to write this post. But I can’t allow favors to prohibit me from telling the truth. The bottom line is this, Hugh Hewitt and some other Republicans are s…

The allegation is sometimes made that Hitler was a Catholic – a Christian until the day he died. This claim is based upon the fact that Hitler was born and raised in a Catholic family.

However, as an adult, Hitler specifically rejected the Catholic Church, as well as Christianity in general. He described himself as “a complete pagan”.

If Hitler was baptized a Catholic, does anyone believe that this should reflect badly on the Catholic church? Does anyone think that God would accept Adolph Hitler into Paradise? Does anyone think that Allah would accept Adolph Hitler into Paradise?

The fact that the Mormons may or may not of done a baptism for the dead for Hitler doesn’t mean that he is somehow “auto-magically” saved.

Hitler will still be held accountable for his life. I doubt that any God would accept that monster.

But then, I am sure in my beliefs.

They baptized Hitler…

Nice professional looking site there, accept it at your own risk.

JamesVersusEveryone on March 13, 2007 at 12:56 PM

Once again, even if it was done… so what. I’m sure that the almighty has the last say and not some religious zealot who may or may not of done Mormon temple work for Hitler.

but many Jews believe it, and it makes them nervous.

That’s just silly. If there is a life after death, wouldn’t the dead person get a choice? How could a Mormon baptism for a dead person, somehow override or invalidate a Jewish ceremony.

If the Mormons are what NRA4Freedom has claimed, and are nothing more than a cult, than I’m sure that whatever God there may be would be understanding about the “recklessness” of a few nuts.

If people are that unsteady in their faith, they have alot bigger issues than just being “nervous” about Mormons.

If there isn’t life after death, then it’s a mute point.

And I’m fine with decriminalization of pot, but I’m not interested in seeing it legalized.

Esthier on March 13, 2007 at 10:05 AM

If your going to decriminalize it, you might as well make it legal, and then tax the ever living bloody h3ll out of it… Just like tobacco.

Then the drug dealing community (did I just write that?) will have to diversify their supply to deal in harder drugs such as heroin and cocaine. Unlike alcohol (which 9/10ths of the adult population have been ingesting for centuries) the effects of pot aren’t fully known.

Nice professional looking site there, accept it at your own risk.

. . .believing in baptism after death is something the rest of Christendom soundly rejects.

This is where some Jews have issues with Mormons. There is a belief in some Jewish circles that Mormons have done baptism after death on Jewish Holocaust victims en masse, using names that have been taken from lists that are extant. I’m not sure whether this is an urban legend, or whether there are hard sources behind it, but many Jews believe it, and it makes them nervous.

An aborted baby in Mormon culture can still be baptized into heaven after death, and believing in baptism after death is something the rest of Christendom soundly rejects.

I do not believe this is correct. I have never heard of such being done.

In my experience as a former Mormon, they are soundly pro-life.

Romney’s biggest problem is going to be his abortion flip-flopping. If he can somehow get around that, he’s got a good shot at landing the nomination.

Nethicus on March 13, 2007 at 10:17 AM

Very true. And there is a solid reason behind his apparent flip-flopping on this.

Abortion in Mormon/LDS culture isn’t as taboo as it is in traditional orthodox Christian culture. An aborted baby in Mormon culture can still be baptized into heaven after death, and believing in baptism after death is something the rest of Christendom soundly rejects.

I’m not saying that Mormons are pro-abortion, because this is not true. I’m just pointing out why abortion is not something Mitt Romney (like Orin Hatch) hangs their hat on in their political careers.

If you like Hatch then vote for Romney because their socio-political agendas should be pretty similar.