Somas past exam papers. Somas….

(What the matter? Can’t you take a joke? Blame it on ACS.)

Contemporary Christian pop is awful: a treacly waste. Go back to the old hymns.

I’m sure they were saying this in the year 400 A.D. as well. I’m pushing 50 and I play keyboards for a 5,000 plus member church. We have to remember that there’s NO SUCH THING as Christian music. Just Christian lyrics. A “C” chord is a “C” chord and musical style is irrelevant to the theory that constructs that particular grouping of notes. I’m constantly stretched musically by playing contemporary styles that would not be my first choice. I have grown to love the new music though and will continue to play as long as the Lord keeps my fingers going.

I think some of you guys are being awfully harsh on RW. In the end we all follow Christ not any particular human being. In-house debate about archane details of the church is better suited for non-political blogsites.

I don’t believe in scaring people out of hell. I believe in loving people into Heaven. That’s what Jesus and the apostles did. Most people know they’ve done bad things in their life — sinned — but that’s not enough to make them accept Jesus by default. They need to experience Jesus’ love and the power of the Holy Spirit — which will convict people of sin and bring them to repentance. In other words, that’s God’s job, not ours. There’s plenty of fire and brimstone preaching going around, and a lot of people are fed up with it. Thank God for churches that feel that helping married people strengthen their relationships using Biblical principles is a wee bit more important than rambling on and on about damnation.

Bryan’s post was about the mainstream media’s bias against a famous Christian figure. It wasn’t about Warren’s theological bona fides.

When I see fellow conservatives form a circular firing squad, each armed with his own set of bible quotes (from his own “approved” translation), I get depressed over the whole social-con political project. We constantly blur the line between what it means to be an American, and what it means to be a Christian. Even down here in the deep red states, there is a difference between the two.

As conservative Americans, our opponents in the political sphere are secular liberals who would like to supress all expresson of religion. They pursue this agenda in the courts, media, and academic institutions. Our opponents in the international arena are totalitarian fanatics who would like to violently supress all religious expression not approved by their cult.

Rick Warren is assuredly not the enemy here. He is an ally in the domestic culture wars. ABC’s bias in chosing the word “minion” affects us all, regardless of where Warren stands in your theological view.

Please save the bible verses for Sunday morning. Throwing them around a political blog just gives trolls from Kos and DU entertaining posts to link to.

You’ve written much, and I’m not quite sure how to address it. Schuler preaches a different God entirely. Warren is one of his acolytes.

Historically, men were brought back to church from sound preaching of the word, which is also part of worship. Preaching is part of worship. The historical revivals have always been accompanied by that. The Reformation itself was a return to the Bible. Now, we’ve tried to appeal to the lusts of men to bring them to church rather than faithful preaching. We are in every bit of need of a Reformation in this country as the church was 500 years ago.

Church is not for unbelievers. Incidentally, men are converted through preaching, but Sunday morning is the time for the covenant people of God to gather together and participate by faith in the Sabbath rest God instituted after the six days of Creation. God is the one who seeks men, and he causes them to respond through faith the the preaching of the Word. We don’t even know what preaching is supposed to sound like in this country anymore.

PRCalDude on March 9, 2007 at 2:30 PM

I remember when narrow minded people would (and still do) critizise Rev. Shuller, how weak biblicaly he was. Usually from people who went to his church and then moved on to find “stronger” biblical teaching. He filled other churches with people who had left the church and returned because of his “easy” services. Ask any congregation in Orange County and you will find many who started at the Crystal Catherdral. Now Warren is bring droves of people back to the church, these are not mindless people. They may not worship how you want them to worship, but they are back in church. If you believe in the Holy Spirit, than you will know that they will be called. If you have doubts of your prayers, or of the power of the Holy Spirit to lead these people to better understanding, than you may be the one weak in spirit. Living (and worshipping) over 50 years in Orange County has taught me one thing, it is a great area for Church growth and innovation. Schuller, Warren, Smith, Swindoll, and others, have led millions of people back to church. Now, PRCalDude, you have an opportunity to lead them further down the path of righteousness. If you have faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit, than he will give you the gifts to lead these people out of the wilderness. Or is your lot in life to cast stones? Men of faith, do not attack other men of faith…and churches may not be led by men that you feel are faithful, but there are many followers that carry more faith and belief than you give them credit. How lucky you are to know that the “minions” are so unfaithful, obviously you feel God has blessed you a very special gift…use it for the good.

If you want to understand how worship is supposed to be, read RC Sproul’s new book:

Is the book “how” worship is supposed to be, or “what” it is supposed to be. I recently read an excerpt from the book and Sproul seems more focused on what worship should be, not how it should be practiced. I may pick up a copy to see.

The worship style is a symptom, not the problem. I read the entire WSJ article and came out with a much different understanding than you did. I understood that the member’s issues were being ignored by the pastor and elders, and that they were forced out. I’ve talked to several other Purpose Driven refugees who’ve had the same thing happen to them. If you want to understand how worship is supposed to be, read RC Sproul’s new book: http://www.amazon.com/Taste-Heaven-Worship-Light-Eternity/dp/1567690769/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0012528-6182549?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173468361&sr=8-1

Here’s my favorite excerpt from the WSJ article:

During a session titled “Dealing with Opposition,” Mr. Clyde recommended that the pastor speak to critical members, then help them leave if they don’t stop objecting. Then when those congregants join a new church, Mr. Clyde instructed, pastors should call their new minister and suggest that the congregants be barred from any leadership role.

Incidentally, have you read Bob DeWaay’s critique of the Purpose Driven Life that I posted earlier?

Warren “blamed” other Christians for splitting churches over the PD movement in the video posted here. He does the very thing you’re blaming me for here! Could it be that the true saints in these churches sense the error, and don’t want to go along with it?

I also blamed other Christians for splitting churches over the PD movement. If you look back at that WSJ story cited by Nightline, it’s pretty clear that a divisive group within the church decided to take on the pastor. They met secretly and stabbed him in the back publicly before ever going to meet with him.

The retired pastor in this Nightline story left because the music made him uncomfortable. Fine, but don’t assume that makes him “more spiritual” or a “true saint.” In my view it makes him immature. Show me where the Bible mandates a particular style of worship and I’ll concede the argument.

Do you recall David’s dance? How about Psalm 149? There is nothing wrong with drums and electric guitars in church worship. There is nothing wrong with topical preaching either. That is, after all, how Jesus did it.

How did a best-selling pastor alienate his minions?

They had to use minions because “godbags” was already taken….

I don’t live there any more. I live in Torrance.

What does Matthew 7 say about false prophets? “By your fruits, you will know them”! His minions are the other pushers of his ideology, not necessarily his parishioners. Warren “blamed” other Christians for splitting churches over the PD movement in the video posted here. He does the very thing you’re blaming me for here! Could it be that the true saints in these churches sense the error, and don’t want to go along with it? Hear what the Spirit says to the churches, for crying out loud.

If he wasn’t looking to cause harm this summer, why did he circulate a message to his church basically accusing his critics of being divisive rather than just apologize, especially when they caught him lying? The state department warned him beforehand that he would be made into a propaganda tool by the Assad regime, and that’s exactly what happened.

I have a valid, Biblical critique of Warren’s faith and practice which are a social gospel and hypocrisy, respectively.

For the record, I agree that it was foolish of Warren to kiss up to Assad, though I see it as an issue of him being naive, not that he was intentionally looking to cause harm.

I also agree that it’s perfectly valid to critique Warren’s statements and practice. But when you label him a “false prophet” and announce that the people at his church really are “minions” and not Christians, I think you’ve crossed a line that’s simply not defensible.

BTW, where do you go to church in HB? I’m curious because I live in HB as well and, in fact, work for a church here.

If anything, the ABC story fails miserably in its effort to adequately address this reality.

Saddleback can be defined as a Seeker-Sensitive Church with a Politically Correct manifesto. Don’t highlight any significant differences between Men and Women and their respective roles in marriage, especially the women’s role; never mention the word Hell, except in Hello…

Please do not misunderstand me here, the precepts that Rick Warren eloquently state in his book “A Purpose Driven Church” are fundamentally sound and work quite successfully for a normal sized church. However, they fail completely with a Mega-Church. Imagine a Church where none of the pastoral staff knows who you are! Imagine a pastoral staff that won;t perform weddings, funerals, or visit the sick in the hospital; unless, of course, you are one of the BIG donors!

I’m just going to cut to the quick and start detailing why Rick Warren is more harmful to the faith than some might suspect.
First off, he’s OK with teaming with people involved in cults and watering down his own ministry of the Gospel, i…

I am a layperson. I have a valid, Biblical critique of Warren’s faith and practice which are a social gospel and hypocrisy, respectively. Do you remember him praising Bashir Assad this summer? Do you remember his spat with Joseph Farah over the whole incident? Do you remember him lying about it and pulling the YouTube video that shows him praising Assad, a wicked persecutor of Christ’s church?

Go to the link I posted above and start reading.

J,

It’s not even a translation, it’s a paraphrase of a translation. I can’t judge his heart either, but as our Lord says in Matthew 7: “By their fruits, you will know them.”

PRCAL, Im guessing that you are no fan of the MSG translation?

Men speak well of Warren just as they did the false prophets of Israel. There was nothing arrogant or self-righteous about me explaining what the church has believed for the past 2000 years.

So, Warren is a false prophet? And everyone at his church is a false believer? Do you think you might be a bit too judgmental here? Who do you actually know at Saddleback?

As for what the Bible actually teaches, what makes you an expert, i.e. where did you study theology?

There are just as many Bible verses to support Warren’s worldview as there are yours. Your arrogance and self-righteousness aside, Warren has done more good for the world than you could ever hope to. Get over yourself, nobody is 100% right. I’d like to see you walk up to a naked, starving, AIDS infected child in Africa and tell him he better repent now or he’s going straight to hell

Men speak well of Warren just as they did the false prophets of Israel. There was nothing arrogant or self-righteous about me explaining what the church has believed for the past 2000 years. I’d like to see you go up to a dying AIDS patient and present him an alternative hope than Jesus. His life is a living hell. Warren offers an eternal one.

If you’d like some actual proof-texting regarding what the Word of God says compared to the word of Warren, here:
http://cicministry.org/berean.php