Most of the academic blogs that we follow are really, really pissed about Indoctrination U (ok, all of the academic blogs that we follow…) FrontPage has an extensive transcript of a roundtable that David Horowitz participated in: Unfortunately, profe…

Where are the feminists?…

tom scott on February 27, 2007 at 6:38 PM

They’re here – it’s just that their multi-culti, PC, BDS, etc. trump their feminism.

…

It’s a ridiculous custom.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 1:03 PM

So was slavery, I guess.

Maxx on February 27, 2007 at 5:09 PM

Good call. You get an A+ for reading skills.

The most we can realistically hope form is some kind of government that is culturally Islamic while being politically represetative.

Lawrence on February 27, 2007 at 12:54 PM

Such as? I ask because my sense is that given the opportunity for representative gov’t, the victors tend to be folks who are real, real unfond of us. I would be happy to be corrected on this.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 1:10 PM

It is actually my point to agree with you, for a change.

This is exactly why democratizing Iraq is taking such a very long time. There are no true secular democracies in Muslim countries. Even Turkey is not a secular representative government, though everyone likes to think so.

The United States democratic government is not specifically secular, even though we try to make it so. Neither did we implement a secular democracy in Japan or Germany after WWII. But Germany doesn’t count because all we did there is restore representative government, not invent it for them. And Japan readily embraced representative government because it did not interfere with their core cultural religious conscience.

Japan, like Britain, kept their cultural dynasties while embracing representative government models. Something similiar to this need to happen in Iraq if we want to avoid a dictatorship returning. And… most Ironically… the closest middle eastern government model that parallels these requirements is in Iran.

Police are seeking 10 men, including several tribal elders, accused of pressuring a Pakistani woman to hand over her teenage daughter as payment for a 16-year-old poker debt…. highlighting how conservative customs threaten women’s rights in Pakistan…. Associated Press

Notice how the Associated Press avoids using the word “Islamic,” which would have been accurate and instead uses the word “conservative.”

I do think that people inherently want to be free. JadeNYU on February 27, 2007 at 3:32 PM

Well I used to think that. First, it’s what we are taught; second, it’s just intuitive. But I am really starting to doubt it. Forget Iraq and that part of the world, look at Russia today.

Way over my pay grade I fear.

Do you equate Westernize with democracize? I think we all do, perhaps without even realizing it. Perhaps that’s one problem.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 2:47 PM

I don’t actually equate them (although, in some ways, they are related as modern democracy stems from western (Greek) philosophy). However, in my post, I was using them fairly interchangably due to being too lazy to define them and not wanting to just use the same word over and over again. :)

Honestly, I don’t care how “western” a place becomes. I don’t think a sign of a country’s progress is how many skyscrapers they have in their cities or how many factories they have producing cars and electronic toys. I don’t think the sari needs to be replaced with jeans and a t-shirt for a country like India to be free. I don’t even think the burqa needs to be replaced, as long as the woman is putting it on of her own free will.

I don’t even think the “one person/one vote” ideal of democracy is necessary for a people to be free. I think it’s often a good indication or freedom, but definitely not a perfect guage. Where democracy is concerned, I tend to agree with Winston Churchill when he said, “democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

I do think that people inherently want to be free. I don’t think the people in Iraq are any different. Some may take that freedom and put on the veil and that’s fine, if that’s their choice. Others may choose jeans and a tshirt…that shouldn’t get them blown up (or thrown in jail or tortured and released or any of the other things that go on in certain parts of the world).

I don’t believe that the majority of Iraqis are hoping that someone shows up and says, “This is what you are going to do or you are going to die.” which is what seems to be the case with radical Islam.

That’s why I think we can ultimately succeed in Iraq.

I didn’t see any Leftist attack from Honora. Her comment about “their are worse things going on in the area” does not say anything about American involvement. And She is right. Honor killing, female circumcision, rape, murder, torture etc is far worse then an arranged marriage, which is what the story amounted to.

Guys, I know personal attacks are par for the course on any internet board. But lets not ascribe meaning to a persons words. Even if you “think” thats what they meant, unless they say it its just conjecture.
Sometimes people can learn from interacting with others. i would hate to see a person comeing around to my viewpoint only for them to be attacked by someone being witty. They would then get defensive and we loose any ground we had in their conversion (cue evil laughter)

Hey honora,

“Liquor in the front, Poker in the rear?”

PinkyBigglesworth on February 27, 2007 at 2:07 PM
Ok, folks, here’s your chance. Is this the sort of discourse that’s fine at HotAir?

honora on February 27, 2007 at 2:23 PM

“Double or Nothing?”

JadeNYU on February 27, 2007 at 2:33 PM

Do you equate Westernize with democracize? I think we all do, perhaps without even realizing it. Perhaps that’s one problem.

I’m still not convinced that Iraq can’t be westernized.

Take a look at the Kurds in Northern Iraq. They are building a thriving country free (as possible) from terrorism. It may not be a 100% American-style republic form of government, but it’s a place where people don’t live in fear for their lives.

The vast majority of Kurds (80% or more) are Sunni muslim.

So the claim that the Sunni’s just can’t handle democracy doesn’t ring true.

These are people that were born and raised in Iraq (and took the brunt of Saddam’s sadistic torture).

So the claim that Iraqi’s can’t handle democracy doesn’t seem right either.

The major difference between Kurds and other Iraqis is that Kurds are an indo-european people and most Iraqis are Arabs (a semitic people).

However, the average Israeli is also a semitic people, so, it can’t be true that semitic people’s just can’t handle democracy.

So, what is it then that makes it so impossible for Iraq to westernize? It’s not the religion, location, or race of the people….

Is there some Factor X that hasn’t been identified yet that makes it impossible for them to move beyond the dark ages? Everything else that has been mentioned as a reason hasn’t stopped other people from modernizing their societies.

So, while I may not think that we are guaranteed success, I still remain optimistic that we might be successful in our attempt to make the world a little bit better.

Ok, folks, here’s your chance. Is this the sort of discourse that’s fine at HotAir?
honora on February 27, 2007 at 2:23 PM

Better than lies and plagerism.

I’m sad and disappointed at our ‘freedom/equality/liberty/rights fighters’ from the Left, and will never understand them. My ony wish is for all of them to be forced to live there for a while. It’s the only way to convince them otherwise. Utopic, all of it, their stands on multi-culturalism and peace on Earth, were it not for the American ‘satan’, and my ‘wish’.

I will never give up believing in all humans’ desire to be free, regardless of how backwards some systems still are.

Hey honora,

“Liquor in the front, Poker in the rear?”

PinkyBigglesworth on February 27, 2007 at 2:07 PM

Ok, folks, here’s your chance. Is this the sort of discourse that’s fine at HotAir?

She responded to you with: “…far from the worst thing in this region.”

I guess to the multicultural left, one thing worse than sexual slavery would be America’s presence in region. God forbid that any part of Western Civilization’s ideals rub off on them. After all, all cultures are equal, except ours which is the source of all evil in the world.

If the culture–which at the end of the day is more pervasive that goverment–as represented by this post is emblematic of Islam, then the idea that we can plant the seeds of democracy in these environs is pure horseshit, which leads to the inevitable conclusion that we are pissing in the winds in Iraq with the idea that at some point the Iraqis will take over their own country.

Pardon the barnyard talk, it’s enough already.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 12:42 PM

That’s the way turn a slave girl storey into an anti-American tirade.

Nice work.

“Liquor in the front, Poker in the rear?”