Pakistani tribal elders demand girl as payment for poker debt

posted at 11:07 am on February 27, 2007 by Allahpundit

It’d make a great movie. Except the tribal elders would be changed to American defense contractors and the whole thing would be presented as an allegory on the war on terror. Starring Sean Penn as the “good” contractor who wonders “what the hell we’re doing here, man.”

Police are seeking 10 men, including several tribal elders, accused of pressuring a Pakistani woman to hand over her teenage daughter as payment for a 16-year-old poker debt, officials said Tuesday.

In the latest case highlighting how conservative customs threaten women’s rights in Pakistan, Nooran Umrani alleges that, despite paying off her late husband’s debt of $165, she was threatened with harm if she failed to hand over her daughter, Rasheeda…

Umrani said her husband was a gambler who ran up the debt at a poker game when Rasheeda was 1 year old. He promised Haider that he would get Rasheeda in lieu of payment when she grew up, the mother said…

He said a group of elders from the tribe came to Hyderabad in January to investigate the case and had ruled that, under tribal custom, the girl should be married to Haider’s 23-year-old son Abdul Ghani.

Police want to arrest the elders, [Koral Shah, a Hyderabad police officer,] said.

Exit question: They’ve got the whiskey, they’ve got the sexy. How many decades ’til democracy?

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

The multi-culturalists will argue to the death that it’s not possible for one culture to be superior to another. Yet if you press them and ask them if they believe in universal values, they see the problem with that position. This story is a good example of that.

flipflop on February 27, 2007 at 11:12 AM

Pakistani tribal elders demand girl as payment for poker debt

That old story again.

RightWinged on February 27, 2007 at 11:13 AM

Isn’t gambling illegal in islam?

Defector01 on February 27, 2007 at 11:14 AM

At least they waited until she was seventeen this time. Most times it seems they try this with nine year olds.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 27, 2007 at 11:16 AM

Poker? I hardly know ‘er!

Isn’t gambling haraam?

raybury on February 27, 2007 at 11:18 AM

Isn’t gambling illegal in islam?

That was my first thought as well.

Farmer_Joe on February 27, 2007 at 11:18 AM

Come on now. We all want to be tolerant, like the good liberals tell us, right?
We should accept and embrace the cultures of others.

Yes, that was sarcasm.

Gregor on February 27, 2007 at 11:21 AM

It’d make a great movie. Except the tribal elders would be changed to American defense contractors and the whole thing would be presented as an allegory on the war on terror. Starring Sean Penn as the “good” contractor who wonders “what the hell we’re doing here, man.”

Since they’re done with Valley of the Wolves Iraq, Gary Busey and Billy Zane are probably available.

eeyore on February 27, 2007 at 11:22 AM

Calling Gloria Steinen……calling Babs Strisand……..
Calling Rosie O’Bottom……calling Joy Behind…..Calling any Hollywood Liberal……Calling any Hollywood liberal……Calling Gwynwit Paltry, calling Gwynwit Paltry…….calling all Dixie Tricks……….Calling the Goracle…..Calling the Goracle……..Come in please….

Awfully quiet on the lib front regarding these global issues………unless ofcourse it involves US bashing.

bloggless on February 27, 2007 at 11:22 AM

I know alcohol is illegal, I know pork is
I know dancing and basically anything ‘fun’ or laughing too loud or being too funny is illegal
I’m like 90% sure gambling’s illegal too

Defector01 on February 27, 2007 at 11:23 AM

I’d like to hear Amanda Marcotte take on these “primitive superstitious misogynist godbags” for a change.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 27, 2007 at 11:31 AM

I’d like to hear Amanda Marcotte take on these “primitive superstitious misogynist godbags” for a change.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 27, 2007 at 11:31 AM

Doesn’t work. If you challenge them on this, their answer is to immediately point out that our government supports these governments.

They bash you for supporting them, and then they bash you if you attempt to stop them.

Liberals don’t have a true stand on anything, other than their hate for America or conservatives.

Gregor on February 27, 2007 at 11:35 AM

This gives new meaning to the phrase “I’m all in”. In Pakistan that apparently includes your offspring, if livestock are depleted.

fogw on February 27, 2007 at 11:44 AM

Hello….
Feminist outrage, where are you?
Hillary? Nancy? Anybody?

G-man on February 27, 2007 at 11:45 AM

Hello….
Feminist outrage, where are you?
Hillary? Nancy? Anybody?

Who are feminists to impose on global multiculturalism?!?

Hoodlumman on February 27, 2007 at 11:48 AM

Quit bashing people. Whom among us hasn’t demanded a female slave as payment for a poker debt?

Kevin M on February 27, 2007 at 11:55 AM

didnt nicholas cage star in this movie already?

lorien1973 on February 27, 2007 at 11:59 AM

Kevin makes a good point. I think a female slave is viable currency for about any debt. At least in my book! :D

lorien1973 on February 27, 2007 at 12:00 PM

Leno made a joke last night about how Disney is selling princess wedding gowns. He joked how if your bride is wearing one, she’s too young.

Darn his western white male preconceptions!!

Canadian Infidel on February 27, 2007 at 12:07 PM

Hello….
FeministTroll outrage, where are you?
Hillary? Nancy? Anybody?Enrique?, honora?, GregH?, etc. Now you can shine!

G-man on February 27, 2007 at 11:45 AM

Entelechy on February 27, 2007 at 12:11 PM

What, no uncovered red meat graphic?

Exit question

The answer to that question lies in Waziristan, and also depends on how long Musharraf can keep the fundies at bay.

Kid from Brooklyn on February 27, 2007 at 12:12 PM

Kevin makes a good point. I think a female slave is viable currency for about any debt. At least in my book! :D

lorien1973 on February 27, 2007 at 12:00 PM

It’s being one, not having one, that’s the problem…

Entelechy on February 27, 2007 at 12:13 PM

The outrage of the Left Feminists over this is deafening.

Clark1 on February 27, 2007 at 12:18 PM

Gotta love this:

In the latest case highlighting how conservative customs threaten women’s rights in Pakistan,

Just like we do here!

Golden Boy on February 27, 2007 at 12:18 PM

This gives new meaning to the phrase “I’m all in”. In Pakistan that apparently includes your offspring, if livestock are depleted.

fogw on February 27, 2007 at 11:44 AM

I was thinking that going ‘all in’ wasn’t going to happen until she was handed over.

James on February 27, 2007 at 12:35 PM

Come on now. We all want to be tolerant, like the good liberals tell us, right?
We should accept and embrace the cultures of others.

Yes, that was sarcasm.

Gregor on February 27, 2007 at 11:21 AM

Come on now. We all want to be hopeful, like the good conservatives tell us, right.

We should expect these people to embrace democracy.

No, that wasn’t sarcasm. That was bitterness.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 12:36 PM

Hello….
FeministTroll outrage, where are you?
Hillary? Nancy? Anybody?Enrique?, honora?, GregH?, etc. Now you can shine!

G-man on February 27, 2007 at 11:45 AM
Entelechy on February 27, 2007 at 12:11 PM

Ok, you cannot have it both ways.

If the culture–which at the end of the day is more pervasive that goverment–as represented by this post is emblematic of Islam, then the idea that we can plant the seeds of democracy in these environs is pure horseshit, which leads to the inevitable conclusion that we are pissing in the winds in Iraq with the idea that at some point the Iraqis will take over their own country.

Pardon the barnyard talk, it’s enough already.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 12:42 PM

Isn’t gambling illegal in islam?

Defector01 on February 27, 2007 at 11:14 AM

Yes.

And like other Islamic customs, the men transgress and the women and Dhimmi’s get punished.

Lawrence on February 27, 2007 at 12:51 PM

then the idea that we can plant the seeds of democracy in these environs is pure …

honora on February 27, 2007 at 12:42 PM

If we are try to plant the seeds of a secular democracy in Iraq, then yes, we are weeing into the wind.

The most we can realistically hope form is some kind of government that is culturally Islamic while being politically represetative.

Lawrence on February 27, 2007 at 12:54 PM

honora on February 27, 2007 at 12:42 PM – doesn’t deserve a direct reply. However,

I reward/punish myself, almost daily, with HA visits.

Just once, please, just once, reward me (or just make me smile) with an unconditional statement in support of children and women, or something which stands alone for the sake of it, and not for its political afinity, or adversarial hate.

Entelechy on February 27, 2007 at 12:58 PM

Boozin and Babin. That’s my kinda Islam!

Kini on February 27, 2007 at 1:02 PM

Honora, what would be the solution? Not being snarky but I am curious.
We can not spread democracy, so should we just ignore young girls being sold as slaves? Or how about the young girls in France being passed around as party favors to the muslim youth? Since Democracy can not be spread we shoud what? Embrace their culture? Say that its ok for a woman to be splayed open while her genitalia is removed? Consider all women to be possesions and property to be used with as we will?

We have three options as I see them.
1) Try to show them a better way (yes, American democracy is a better way, IMO)
2) Ignore the problem and do what ever is necasary so they won’t hurt us (pay that dhimi tax!)
3) get Roman on them, Kill those who oppose us, salt the earth and kill 100 Iraqi’s for every American that is injured. All dissent will be crushed and the crucified Taliban will stretch for hundreds of miles as a warning to all who oppoose our mighty empire.

(ok, the last one was me being facetiouse, America is not an empire, nor would we get Roman on them)

So whats the answer?

Wyrd on February 27, 2007 at 1:02 PM

Oh, and gamblin

Kini on February 27, 2007 at 1:02 PM

honora on February 27, 2007 at 12:42 PM – doesn’t deserve a direct reply. However,

I reward/punish myself, almost daily, with HA visits.

Just once, please, just once, reward me (or just make me smile) with an unconditional statement in support of children and women, or something which stands alone for the sake of it, and not for its political afinity, or adversarial hate.

Entelechy on February 27, 2007 at 12:58 PM

It’s a ridiculous custom. Though from a cursory reading of the link, far from the worst thing in this region. (At the end of the day, it was an arranged marriage, albeit predicated on unusually shoddy circumstances; arranged marriages are commonplace in Muslim countries if I am not mistaken??)

And Entelechy, tit for tat. How about we converse minus the judgments?

honora on February 27, 2007 at 1:03 PM

then the idea that we can plant the seeds of democracy in these environs is pure horseshit,

Democrats Demand Defeat.

Didn’t we defeat Hirohito and Hitler and successfully integrate democracy into their cultures, even though the naysayers said it couldn’t be done?

fogw on February 27, 2007 at 1:06 PM

So whats the answer?

Wyrd on February 27, 2007 at 1:02 PM

Oh one, definitely. But that doesn’t negate part of two.

We do what we can do. If we are going to address all the bad stuff in the world, we will only defeat ourselves. Pick those battles where we are both on the side of the angels and are forwarding our own self interest.

Sounds simple, but of course I realize it’s not.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 1:08 PM

The most we can realistically hope form is some kind of government that is culturally Islamic while being politically represetative.

Lawrence on February 27, 2007 at 12:54 PM

Such as? I ask because my sense is that given the opportunity for representative gov’t, the victors tend to be folks who are real, real unfond of us. I would be happy to be corrected on this.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 1:10 PM

EWWWWWW!!!!! Honora, your answer stinks big time. That was really lame.

bloggless on February 27, 2007 at 1:11 PM

Actually thats about the only answer that can be given. The problem is deciding which battles to fight.
The middle east has been stuck in it’s infancy far longer then the west, it needs to break out of the mold and grow some. For that it needs new blood, new ideas, and unfortunatly a lot of fighting.

Wyrd on February 27, 2007 at 1:24 PM

Actually thats about the only answer that can be given. The problem is deciding which battles to fight.
The middle east has been stuck in it’s infancy far longer then the west, it needs to break out of the mold and grow some. For that it needs new blood, new ideas, and unfortunatly a lot of fighting.

Wyrd on February 27, 2007 at 1:24 PM

That’s the smartest thing I’ve read today. Daunting, isn’t it?

honora on February 27, 2007 at 1:27 PM

Western feminists do seem to have turned their collective backs on their Muslim sisters. Part of the reason–and this stems from a similar post I made on another thread–might well lie in ‘Western Guilt Syndrome’: A reluctance to criticize the multicultural ‘other’–that those who come from the oppressed classes receive a pass. Those taking that approach fail to realize–or fail to accept–that fact that the ‘oppressed’ can be just as nasty–if not worse–than the former ‘oppressor’. It’s an incredibly naive view of human nature. Another possible reason is lack of will and courage. Leaders of modern Western feminism are not made of the same stuff as those who preceded them. They’re no Mary Wollstonecrofts, Olympe de Gouges, Mary Derouins, or Emily Pankhursts who were willing to lay it all on the line for their beliefs. While more than willing to speak out against targets they know will not retaliate violently, when it comes to speaking out against those who would do them harm, they clam up. A third, more prosaic reason is the NIMBY syndrome. They’re too far away to notice. “I’ve got my job to go to, then opening night at the Vagina Monologues, then this weekend attending the anti-war rally. I can’t be bothered reading Hursi Ali’s latest book or writing a letter to my congressman calling for legislation withholding funds from nations that do not crack down on genital mutilation etc.” And I’m sure there’s a host of other reasons…

Matt Helm on February 27, 2007 at 1:38 PM

Sorry, I meant JEANNE Deroins–had Mary on the mind…

Matt Helm on February 27, 2007 at 1:45 PM

This is outrageous. They didn’t even know if the woman could mix a good drink, keep the snack tray full during the game, or what she looks like in a teddy. It must have been a small pot.

right2bright on February 27, 2007 at 1:53 PM

Hey honora,

“Liquor in the front, Poker in the rear?”

PinkyBigglesworth on February 27, 2007 at 2:07 PM

If the culture–which at the end of the day is more pervasive that goverment–as represented by this post is emblematic of Islam, then the idea that we can plant the seeds of democracy in these environs is pure horseshit, which leads to the inevitable conclusion that we are pissing in the winds in Iraq with the idea that at some point the Iraqis will take over their own country.

Pardon the barnyard talk, it’s enough already.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 12:42 PM

That’s the way turn a slave girl storey into an anti-American tirade.

Nice work.

JackM on February 27, 2007 at 2:10 PM

Entelechy, Honora’s response is exactly what I expected.

She responded to you with: “…far from the worst thing in this region.”

I guess to the multicultural left, one thing worse than sexual slavery would be America’s presence in region. God forbid that any part of Western Civilization’s ideals rub off on them. After all, all cultures are equal, except ours which is the source of all evil in the world.

georgej on February 27, 2007 at 2:13 PM

Hey honora,

“Liquor in the front, Poker in the rear?”

PinkyBigglesworth on February 27, 2007 at 2:07 PM

Ok, folks, here’s your chance. Is this the sort of discourse that’s fine at HotAir?

honora on February 27, 2007 at 2:23 PM

georgej, I lived in an oppressive system and am very happy that those of you outside did not have this attitude. I can never (and will not attempt too deeply) explain what it meant to become free. It simply can not be explained in words.

I’m sad and disappointed at our ‘freedom/equality/liberty/rights fighters’ from the Left, and will never understand them. My ony wish is for all of them to be forced to live there for a while. It’s the only way to convince them otherwise. Utopic, all of it, their stands on multi-culturalism and peace on Earth, were it not for the American ‘satan’, and my ‘wish’.

I will never give up believing in all humans’ desire to be free, regardless of how backwards some systems still are.

Entelechy on February 27, 2007 at 2:28 PM

Ok, folks, here’s your chance. Is this the sort of discourse that’s fine at HotAir?
honora on February 27, 2007 at 2:23 PM

Better than lies and plagerism.

right2bright on February 27, 2007 at 2:30 PM

Just ONE teenage girl for payment? Must not have been much of a poker game. ‘C mon, this is Pakistan already.

Mojave Mark on February 27, 2007 at 2:31 PM

>

I’m still not convinced that Iraq can’t be westernized.

Take a look at the Kurds in Northern Iraq. They are building a thriving country free (as possible) from terrorism. It may not be a 100% American-style republic form of government, but it’s a place where people don’t live in fear for their lives.

The vast majority of Kurds (80% or more) are Sunni muslim.

So the claim that the Sunni’s just can’t handle democracy doesn’t ring true.

These are people that were born and raised in Iraq (and took the brunt of Saddam’s sadistic torture).

So the claim that Iraqi’s can’t handle democracy doesn’t seem right either.

The major difference between Kurds and other Iraqis is that Kurds are an indo-european people and most Iraqis are Arabs (a semitic people).

However, the average Israeli is also a semitic people, so, it can’t be true that semitic people’s just can’t handle democracy.

So, what is it then that makes it so impossible for Iraq to westernize? It’s not the religion, location, or race of the people….

Is there some Factor X that hasn’t been identified yet that makes it impossible for them to move beyond the dark ages? Everything else that has been mentioned as a reason hasn’t stopped other people from modernizing their societies.

So, while I may not think that we are guaranteed success, I still remain optimistic that we might be successful in our attempt to make the world a little bit better.

JadeNYU on February 27, 2007 at 2:33 PM

JadeNYU on February 27, 2007 at 2:33 PM

Do you equate Westernize with democracize? I think we all do, perhaps without even realizing it. Perhaps that’s one problem.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 2:47 PM

Loser must have been holdin’ Aces and Eights.

shooter on February 27, 2007 at 2:52 PM

Hey honora,

“Liquor in the front, Poker in the rear?”

PinkyBigglesworth on February 27, 2007 at 2:07 PM
Ok, folks, here’s your chance. Is this the sort of discourse that’s fine at HotAir?

honora on February 27, 2007 at 2:23 PM

“Double or Nothing?”

PinkyBigglesworth on February 27, 2007 at 3:06 PM

I think, given time, the Middle East can grow into a fine democracy. Would it Mirror Western Civilasation? Probaly not. But it would have plenty of similarities. Look at Morrocco in the 60′s. They had a monarchy, but they also had a fairly free society. As I understand it, it was a great place to party.

I didn’t see any Leftist attack from Honora. Her comment about “their are worse things going on in the area” does not say anything about American involvement. And She is right. Honor killing, female circumcision, rape, murder, torture etc is far worse then an arranged marriage, which is what the story amounted to.

Guys, I know personal attacks are par for the course on any internet board. But lets not ascribe meaning to a persons words. Even if you “think” thats what they meant, unless they say it its just conjecture.
Sometimes people can learn from interacting with others. i would hate to see a person comeing around to my viewpoint only for them to be attacked by someone being witty. They would then get defensive and we loose any ground we had in their conversion (cue evil laughter)

Wyrd on February 27, 2007 at 3:27 PM

Do you equate Westernize with democracize? I think we all do, perhaps without even realizing it. Perhaps that’s one problem.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 2:47 PM

I don’t actually equate them (although, in some ways, they are related as modern democracy stems from western (Greek) philosophy). However, in my post, I was using them fairly interchangably due to being too lazy to define them and not wanting to just use the same word over and over again. :)

Honestly, I don’t care how “western” a place becomes. I don’t think a sign of a country’s progress is how many skyscrapers they have in their cities or how many factories they have producing cars and electronic toys. I don’t think the sari needs to be replaced with jeans and a t-shirt for a country like India to be free. I don’t even think the burqa needs to be replaced, as long as the woman is putting it on of her own free will.

I don’t even think the “one person/one vote” ideal of democracy is necessary for a people to be free. I think it’s often a good indication or freedom, but definitely not a perfect guage. Where democracy is concerned, I tend to agree with Winston Churchill when he said, “democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

I do think that people inherently want to be free. I don’t think the people in Iraq are any different. Some may take that freedom and put on the veil and that’s fine, if that’s their choice. Others may choose jeans and a tshirt…that shouldn’t get them blown up (or thrown in jail or tortured and released or any of the other things that go on in certain parts of the world).

I don’t believe that the majority of Iraqis are hoping that someone shows up and says, “This is what you are going to do or you are going to die.” which is what seems to be the case with radical Islam.

That’s why I think we can ultimately succeed in Iraq.

JadeNYU on February 27, 2007 at 3:32 PM

I do think that people inherently want to be free. JadeNYU on February 27, 2007 at 3:32 PM

Well I used to think that. First, it’s what we are taught; second, it’s just intuitive. But I am really starting to doubt it. Forget Iraq and that part of the world, look at Russia today.

Way over my pay grade I fear.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 4:21 PM

Police are seeking 10 men, including several tribal elders, accused of pressuring a Pakistani woman to hand over her teenage daughter as payment for a 16-year-old poker debt…. highlighting how conservative customs threaten women’s rights in Pakistan…. Associated Press

Notice how the Associated Press avoids using the word “Islamic,” which would have been accurate and instead uses the word “conservative.”

Maxx on February 27, 2007 at 5:09 PM

The most we can realistically hope form is some kind of government that is culturally Islamic while being politically represetative.

Lawrence on February 27, 2007 at 12:54 PM

Such as? I ask because my sense is that given the opportunity for representative gov’t, the victors tend to be folks who are real, real unfond of us. I would be happy to be corrected on this.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 1:10 PM

It is actually my point to agree with you, for a change.

This is exactly why democratizing Iraq is taking such a very long time. There are no true secular democracies in Muslim countries. Even Turkey is not a secular representative government, though everyone likes to think so.

The United States democratic government is not specifically secular, even though we try to make it so. Neither did we implement a secular democracy in Japan or Germany after WWII. But Germany doesn’t count because all we did there is restore representative government, not invent it for them. And Japan readily embraced representative government because it did not interfere with their core cultural religious conscience.

Japan, like Britain, kept their cultural dynasties while embracing representative government models. Something similiar to this need to happen in Iraq if we want to avoid a dictatorship returning. And… most Ironically… the closest middle eastern government model that parallels these requirements is in Iran.

Lawrence on February 27, 2007 at 5:32 PM

Maxx on February 27, 2007 at 5:09 PM

Good call. You get an A+ for reading skills.

right2bright on February 27, 2007 at 5:41 PM

The western world IS democracy. The rest of the world is playing catch-up.

Mojave Mark on February 27, 2007 at 5:41 PM

It’s a ridiculous custom.

honora on February 27, 2007 at 1:03 PM

So was slavery, I guess.

spmat on February 27, 2007 at 6:31 PM

Where are the feminists? Who cares? What matters is what the response from the Virginia ACLU is.

tom scott on February 27, 2007 at 6:38 PM

Where are the feminists?…

tom scott on February 27, 2007 at 6:38 PM

They’re here – it’s just that their multi-culti, PC, BDS, etc. trump their feminism.

Entelechy on February 27, 2007 at 7:00 PM