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WaPo: Dem centrists revolt against the slow bleed

posted at 2:21 pm on February 23, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Oh, it’s sweet. Syrupy sweet. Murtha’s fat mouth + anti-nutroots backlash = crazy, crazy delicious.

House Democrats have pulled back from efforts to link additional funding for the war to strict troop-readiness standards after the proposal came under withering fire from Republicans and from their party’s own moderates. That strategy was championed by Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) and endorsed by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.).

“If you strictly limit a commander’s ability to rotate troops in and out of Iraq, that kind of inflexibility could put some missions and some troops at risk,” said Rep. Chet Edwards (D-Tex.), who personally lodged his concerns with Murtha…

[The slow bleed] approach may be all but dead, according to several Democratic lawmakers. Murtha doomed his own plan in part by unveiling it on a left-wing Web site, inflaming party moderates. [This site? -- ed.]

“Congress has no business micromanaging a war, cutting off funding or even conditioning those funds,” said Rep. Jim Cooper (Tenn.), a leading Democratic moderate, who called Murtha’s whole effort “clumsy.”

Cooper’s position underscores the challenges now facing the House Democratic leadership. While the caucus’s liberal wing is demanding legislation to end the war almost immediately, moderates such as Cooper say Congress should focus on oversight of the war and stay away from legislation that encroaches on the war powers of the president.

“I think Congress begins to skate on thin ice when we start to micromanage troop deployments and rotations,” said Texas’s Edwards, whose views reflect those of several other Democrats from conservative districts.

I’m mainlining schadenfreude from the hint that they might have gone along with it if not for Spanky pandering to the same cretins who routinely threaten to drive centrist Democrats from office. But let’s not OD: Carl Levin’s alternative is a new AUMF, co-authored with Joe Biden, demanding full withdrawal by March 31 of next year and limiting combat operations to Al Qaeda in Iraq. How they propose to have U.S. troops distinguish AQ fighters from indigenous Sunni jihadis is unclear; why they’d refuse to let U.S. troops target the Mahdi Army is uncertain, particularly given our own intel assessments that the Shiite extremists are a bigger threat to stability than the Sunnis. Do the Democrats really not grasp that having the U.S. military flatten the Sunnis and then leave would be tantamount to handing the country to Muqtada al-Sadr? Or do they simply not care because, after all, it’s “their war, not ours”?

I’ve said before that I think Congress could constitutionally revoke the 2002 AUMF. That wouldn’t infringe on the prerogatives of the executive because it wouldn’t tell him how to command troops in the field; it would simply withdraw the authorization granted to him to command troops in the field in the first place. Levin and Biden don’t want to revoke it, though; they want to dictate operations, which is why I think this one’s a loser on separation of powers grounds if it ever comes before a court:

The new resolution would restrict U. S. military efforts in Iraq to training and logistical support for the Iraqi army, counter-terrorism operations and securing the Iraqi borders, especially with Iran and Syria, said the Democratic insiders, who would speak only on the condition of anonymity as the drafting proceeds.

The GOP says it’ll never get the 60 votes needed to pass, so Levin and Biden are thinking of adding it as an amendment to a bill that will — like the bill to enact the 9/11 Commission’s recommendations, or the next spending bill. Then Bush will have to veto that bill and they’ll get to do what Democrats do best: stamp their feet and feign indignation when the president vetoes the bill, even though everyone will know that he wouldn’t have vetoed it if not for the AUMF provision, which could and should be split off into a (doomed) bill of its own. Their problem, very simply, is that they don’t have 60 votes in the Senate to beat a GOP filibuster of any sort, and until they do they’re wasting their time trying to figure out new and ever cleverer ways of sneaking some anti-war measures through. But hey, if the situation in Baghdad deterioriates, a few more Republican senators might jump ship and they could reach the magic number. There’s something for the nutroots to cross its fingers for.

Is it worth noting that Our Moral Leader thinks the surge is a good idea? For now, that is; when it starts to go bad, he’ll claim he was “misled.” Meanwhile, Cheney’s finally gotten back to Pelosi after she stamped her feet and feigned indignation when he accused her of validating AQ’s strategy:

Vice President Dick Cheney refused Friday to take back his charge that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s opposition to President Bush’s Iraq war buildup is playing into the hands of the al Qaeda terrorist network.

“If you’re going to advocate a course of action that basically is withdrawal of our forces from Iraq, then you don’t get to just do the fun part of that, that says, ‘We’ll, we’re going to get out,’ and appeal to your constituents on that basis,” Cheney said…

“You also have to be accountable for the results. What are the consequences of that? What happens if we withdraw from Iraq?,” he said. “And the point I made and I’ll make it again is that al-Qaida functions on the basis that they think they can break our will. That’s their fundamental underlying strategy, that if they can kill enough Americans or cause enough havoc, create enough chaos in Iraq, then we’ll quit and go home. And my statement was that if we adopt the Pelosi policy, that then we will validate the strategy of al-Qaida. I said it and I meant it.”

Asked if he was willing to take back his criticism of Pelosi, Cheney replied, “I’m not backing down.”

Is he wrong? It’s worth revisiting Zawahiri’s (alleged) letter to Zarqawi in 2005. Quote:

If our intended goal in this age is the establishment of a caliphate in the manner of the Prophet and if we expect to establish its state predominantly–according to how it appears to us–in the heart of the Islamic world, then your efforts and sacrifices–God permitting–are a large step directly towards that goal.

So we must think for a long time about our next steps and how we want to attain it, and it is my humble opinion that the Jihad in Iraq requires several incremental goals:

The first stage: Expel the Americans from Iraq.

That’s the very first step. That’s what Murtha, and Levin and Biden, are trying to make happen.

Exit question: If, per fringe leftist dogma, the Iraq war is a war for Israel, how do we explain this?

Update: Hold the phone — Powell didn’t say he supports the surge. Go figure.


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The GOP says it’ll never get the 60 votes needed to pass, so Levin and Biden are thinking of adding it as an amendment to a bill that will — like the bill to enact the 9/11 Commission’s recommendations, or the next spending bill.

Can someone in the know tell if I am correct in thinking that the bills go thru the Rules Committee and there is where the decision is made as to what admendments can be added to a bill?

News2Use on February 23, 2007 at 2:37 PM

“…my statement was that if we adopt the Pelosi policy, that then we will validate the strategy of al-Qaida. I said it and I meant it.”

No nuance there. Even David Gregory won’t have to parse that statement to get the meaning.

It’s your move, Madam Speaker.

BacaDog on February 23, 2007 at 2:40 PM

Is “Ha Ha” one word or two?

Ringmaster on February 23, 2007 at 2:43 PM

So Cheney still clings to the notion that the violence in Iraq is driven by al-Q.

Well if “last throes” Dick says so, who are we to argue?

honora on February 23, 2007 at 2:47 PM

That’s a rather broad and bizarre interpretation Honora.

The violence is driven by al-Qaeda. It is also driven by the Madhi Army, Syria, Iran, and to some extent Saudi Arabia.

Every time we discuss a force in Iraq, do we have to have a disclaimer saying “by the way, all these other forces are at work as well!” Seems a bit like nothing would get said if some people were too ignorant or lazy to take a quote for what it is: a quote, and not a dissertation.

Lehosh on February 23, 2007 at 2:56 PM

Molasses!

“I said it and I meant it.”

…and please don’t ask me to explain the meaning of ‘meant’.

honora, he ‘walks the talk’ and ‘has convictions’, like Mr. Kennedy. You might not agree with his, but you can certainly, fairly, give both gents the same credit…

Entelechy on February 23, 2007 at 2:56 PM

Blue Dog Day Afternoon.

Kid from Brooklyn on February 23, 2007 at 2:58 PM

Neat survey. Liked this part: “Despite the limited sample size of non-Democratic Jews…” I still can’t understand how Jews continue to align themselves with a party that would cheer the destruction of the state of Israel.

RW Wacko on February 23, 2007 at 3:02 PM

I’d rather go hunting with Dick, than driving with Ted.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 23, 2007 at 3:05 PM

So Cheney still clings to the notion that the violence in Iraq is driven by al-Q.

Well if “last throes” Dick says so, who are we to argue?

honora on February 23, 2007 at 2:47 PM

Please show me where Cheney said that. Also, honora, when you have Zawahiri saying:

The first stage: Expel the Americans from Iraq.

I think it becomes very obvious that what Cheney is saying is don’t fall into their trap.

Rick on February 23, 2007 at 3:09 PM

honora on February 23, 2007 at 2:47 PM

Ah, the plagiarist is back.

georgej on February 23, 2007 at 3:10 PM

I also thought the poll was interesting. Half my family is Jewish and there are only 2 out of the 47 who aren’t Dimmocraps. I don’t get it either but for some reason, (my one cousin who is not dim thinks it has more to do with FDR & WW2 than anything else) they stick with that party like glue.
Sniper One-I have a that T-shirt and I wear it proudly.

Catie96706 on February 23, 2007 at 3:11 PM

That’s a rather broad and bizarre interpretation Honora.

The violence is driven by al-Qaeda. It is also driven by the Madhi Army, Syria, Iran, and to some extent Saudi Arabia.

Every time we discuss a force in Iraq, do we have to have a disclaimer saying “by the way, all these other forces are at work as well!” Seems a bit like nothing would get said if some people were too ignorant or lazy to take a quote for what it is: a quote, and not a dissertation.

Lehosh on February 23, 2007 at 2:56 PM

Al Q has been and is overhyped by Cheney re Iraq.
Ask yourself why that is.

Latest Pentagon report, pretty interesting.

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pdfs/9010Quarterly-Report-20061216.pdf

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:12 PM

Honora, Honora, Honora. Please, please read every word actually written or spoken, completely and in context. If you don’t, you can’t understand or make any kind of coherent statement. I realize that you’re not (at least I don’t think so)a tinfoil hatted leftist loon. You have your own view of things, and that’s what it’s all about. But, please try to at least see the three sides of issue: your side, my side and the truth. Maybe then we could enter into a serious discussion of the subject.

sharinlite on February 23, 2007 at 3:15 PM

“Overhyped” is pretty subjective don’t you think? Al-Qaeda is a factor in Iraq according to the Administration as well as Al-Qaeda themselves… a force that will only become more important once Sunni states start meddling. It’s not the strongest force at the moment by any means and I don’t think anyone is claiming that, least of all the White House.

I think it’s dishonest to attempt to dismiss Cheney’s criticism of Pelosi’s strategy on these grounds. What Cheney said, while not the most important factor in Iraq, is still absolutely true. It’s not as important as the effect it has on al-Sadr’s army of course, but it’s nevertheless true.

Lehosh on February 23, 2007 at 3:16 PM

Please show me where Cheney said that.

See above : “And the point I made and I’ll make it again is that al-Qaida functions on the basis that they think they can break our will. That’s their fundamental underlying strategy, that if they can kill enough Americans or cause enough havoc, create enough chaos in Iraq, then we’ll quit and go home.

By me, that’s saying that Al Q is driving the violence in Iraq. No?

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:20 PM

If nothing else this should at least buy some time for Petraeus to start making a difference. That’s probably the best he can hope for on the domestic side of things.

Dudley Smith on February 23, 2007 at 3:23 PM

“Overhyped” is pretty subjective don’t you think? Al-Qaeda is a factor in Iraq according to the Administration as well as Al-Qaeda themselves… a force that will only become more important once Sunni states start meddling. It’s not the strongest force at the moment by any means and I don’t think anyone is claiming that, least of all the White House.

I think it’s dishonest to attempt to dismiss Cheney’s criticism of Pelosi’s strategy on these grounds. What Cheney said, while not the most important factor in Iraq, is still absolutely true. It’s not as important as the effect it has on al-Sadr’s army of course, but it’s nevertheless true.

Lehosh on February 23, 2007 at 3:16 PM

Sorry, I can agree with your analyis, but look at the Cheney statement. In reaction to Pelosi, Cheney immediately goes for the Al Q card. How does this illuminate anything?

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:24 PM

I’d rather go hunting with Dick, than driving with Ted.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 23, 2007 at 3:05 PM

Don’t forget the Budweiser….

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:27 PM

Don’t forget the Budweiser….

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:27 PM

He said “hunting with Dick” not “driving with Ted.”

Rick on February 23, 2007 at 3:28 PM

So Cheney still clings to the notion that the violence in Iraq is driven by al-Q.

Well if “last throes” Dick says so, who are we to argue?

honora on February 23, 2007 at 2:47 PM

Honora, I’m getting real tired of straightening you out on these issues. Can’t you just incorporate facts into your brain before making comments?

Iraq= A very large country
Baghdad= A large city, shiite majority
Anbar= A large providence, AQ stronghold

The shiite’s and sunnis are killing each other in sectarian violence since last february when the golden mosque was destroyed by AQ for the express purpose of fomenting sectarian violence. There is some shiite groups targeting our troops, but not near the level as in anbar.

In anbar, AQ is mostly targeting our troops.

The violence in Iraq IS being driven by AQ and now the shiite and sunni are killing each other because of AQ. All this with a fledgling democracy that is just under a year old.

Perhaps you should install a porthole in your bellybutton so you can see where you are going?

csdeven on February 23, 2007 at 3:29 PM

Neat survey. Liked this part: “Despite the limited sample size of non-Democratic Jews…” I still can’t understand how Jews continue to align themselves with a party that would cheer the destruction of the state of Israel.

RW Wacko on February 23, 2007 at 3:02 PM

Well either they’re really, really dumb or your premise is incorrect–that Dems cheer the destruction of Israel.

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:29 PM

Perhaps you should install a porthole in your bellybutton so you can see where you are going?

csdeven on February 23, 2007 at 3:29 PM

Perhaps you should read the link I provided.

Perhaps you could attempt to make your point without these junior high verbal tactics.

Or perhaps not?

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:32 PM

What the WaPo story means is that the “trial balloon” failed to fly.

On your statement: “I think Congress could constitutionally revoke the 2002 AUMF.”

Congress can pass any bill they want, including one revoking PL 107-243. However, there is NO provision in the Constitution, in the War Powers Act, or anywhere else in the US Code that allows Congress to UNDECLARE WAR.

In fact, the WPA, specifically 50 USC 1544 states that Congress cannot order the President to withdraw troops from battle if the United States is under attack or if it is not feasible to withdraw them due to “unavoidable military necessity respecting the safety of United States Armed Forces” — EVEN IF CONGRESS DID NOT AUTHORIZE THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Which means, that once Congress declares war or authorizes the use of military force (which is the same thing, see Bas v. Tingy, 4 U.S. (4 Dall.) 37 (1800)) Congress cannot, by legislative fiat force the President to stop fighting.

Nor can the Congress simply “defund” the war because Congress does NOT have the power to “surrender” the country to a foreign enemy. The power to surrender the United States (something that the Founders never envisioned, BTW) is clearly a “war power” that is reserved to the President.

In fact, I think that because the Founders never included an “undeclare war power” or “surrender provision” in the Constitution, the President has the Constitutional authority to utilize any funds available in order to prosecute war, if necessary.

The bottom line, as I see it, is that once Congress declares war (or authorizes military force, which is the same thing), it becomes OPEN ENDED and subject only to the determination of the President, under Article 2, as to when the war is over, AND that Congress cannot simply shut it down, not even by explicitly cutting funding.

So the repeal of PL 107-243 would mean absolutely nothing.

georgej on February 23, 2007 at 3:37 PM

Well if “last throes” Dick says so, who are we to argue?

It doesn’t matter who said what was said. Cheney’s statement is self-evidently true – the Murtha/Pelosi position is the de facto Al Qaeda position. That Cheney said it matters not, my friend. Frankly, if I were Cheney and Bush I would always say it, since it’s a compelling case against withdrawing troops.

Don’t get bogged down is who said it – the who isn’t important. It’s the what that matters. In two years, Cheney and Bush ride off into the sunset. They will never be tried for war crimes, they will never answer for the damage they’ve caused. Pelosi/Murtha should get over it and realize that the people who are going to pay the consequences for their actions aren’t going to be Bush/Cheney.

Enrique on February 23, 2007 at 3:38 PM

He said “hunting with Dick” not “driving with Ted.”

Rick on February 23, 2007 at 3:28 PM

I know. Ted strikes me more as a vodka or scotch man. Dick is all about the beer, at least early in the morning before duck hunting…..and why not….

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:39 PM

Ah, it’s honora. I’d ask you to show me where Dems DON’T cheer the destruction of Israel. I can’t see how they claim they don’t. At least, the Pelosi/Murtha/Edwards wing, who think that the Palestinians are the ones who deserve all the sympathy. And Hamas just called for the resumption of violence.

As for Cheney–what, exactly, did he say that was incorrect? Certainly AQ IS driving violence in Iraq. And certainly their goal is to have the US leave. So, Pelosi’s plan is AQ’s plan–or do you disagree with that, honora? If you do, then explain what, if anything, would AQ NOT like about the Pelosi plan?

Vanceone on February 23, 2007 at 3:39 PM

Al Q has been and is overhyped by Cheney re Iraq.
Ask yourself why that is.

Latest Pentagon report, pretty interesting.

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pdfs/9010Quarterly-Report-20061216.pdf

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:12 PM

Hey honora, here’s a few quotes from the Pentagon Report you linked:

Since al-Masri assumed leadership, al-Qaeda in Iraq has continued its main strategy of instigating sectarian violence using high profile attacks against Shi’a civilians.

The Sunni Arab insurgency also remains a potent threat to Coalition forces and the ISF, but ir generally conducts smaller-scale attacks on the military targets. As a result, the insurgents have had a lower profile than the sectarian elements executing civilians or al-Qaeda in Iraq elements conducting mass-casualty bombings and suicide attacks.

In Diyala, sectarian violence decreased in September, largely due to a successful series of Iraqi Army/Coalition forces operations, which significantly degraded al-Qaeda in Iraq activity. However, in October, the number of casualties rose, as al-Qaeda in Iraq resumed sectarian attacks.

Cheney synopsis overhyped? Not so much

Honora accusations true? Definitely not

Ask yourself why.

fogw on February 23, 2007 at 3:42 PM

In two years, Cheney and Bush ride off into the sunset. They will never be tried for war crimes, they will never answer for the damage they’ve caused. Pelosi/Murtha should get over it and realize that the people who are going to pay the consequences for their actions aren’t going to be Bush/Cheney.

Enrique on February 23, 2007 at 3:38 PM

Sad but true, friend, sad but true.

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:42 PM

I know. Ted strikes me more as a vodka or scotch man. Dick is all about the beer, at least early in the morning before duck hunting…..and why not….

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:39 PM

Dick and Ted’s Not So Excellent Adventure.

Rick on February 23, 2007 at 3:43 PM

Fogw wrote:

Cheney synopsis overhyped? Not so much

Honora accusations true? Definitely not

Ask yourself why.

Hey foggy. Give her some time to find the right passage to plagiarize.

georgej on February 23, 2007 at 3:43 PM

Cheney synopsis overhyped? Not so much

Honora accusations true? Definitely not

Ask yourself why.

fogw on February 23, 2007 at 3:42 PM

The report clearly states that the major issue is and has been the sectarian violence. If you want to cherry pick the report…oh wait, doesn’t that have a familiar ring!! OY!!!

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:44 PM

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:32 PM

I’m not gonna bother with you, because any minute now someone gonna expose your silliness and you will run off and hide. Again.

csdeven on February 23, 2007 at 3:49 PM

Exit question: If, per fringe leftist dogma, the Iraq war is a war for Israel, how do we explain this?

Because American Jews have reduced their support of Israel.

Attila (Pillage Idiot) on February 23, 2007 at 3:50 PM

honora, are you going to deny that AQ is, at the very least, a major cause of the violence in Iraq?

Rick on February 23, 2007 at 3:51 PM

The report clearly states that the major issue is and has been the sectarian violence. If you want to cherry pick the report…oh wait, doesn’t that have a familiar ring!! OY!!!

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:44 PM

HA HA. Caught you again Honora. That’s the best you got … waah, waaah, you cherry picked the report. Yup, and I kinda liked what I picked, took me all of five minutes to prove you wrong.

fogw on February 23, 2007 at 3:52 PM

Can we get Bryan to post an update in here, please?

James on February 23, 2007 at 3:52 PM

“I’ve had enough of ‘nonbinding,’ ” said Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.),

,

Which falls into the plans of the terrorists……..

The first stage: Expel the Americans from Iraq. Zawahiri’s (alleged) letter to Zarqawi in 2005

And then the result…..

“You also have to be accountable for the results. What are the consequences of that? What happens if we withdraw from Iraq?,” Vice President Dick Cheney

Who is going to be accountable? Murtha? Pelosi (Blink…blink….blink), Kerry? What if your plan goes horribly wrong? Will you take the blame, give up your seat of power, and go quietly into the history books as the one who caused a genocide greater than the “Killing Fields”? Or will you point blame elsewhere, stating you were “misinformed”…….

I am so sick of this political bovine fecal matter! The Democrats are nothing than a skid mark in the bowl! They wouldn’t know how to win a war if it sat on their face! Look at them, running around, afraid to take a positive stand, one way or the other, it’s all “poll” driven.

Let our troops fight! Stop tying their hands with your politcal correctness insanity! Stop with the second guessing! Give them the tools and resources to complete the mission!

PinkyBigglesworth on February 23, 2007 at 3:54 PM

If you do, then explain what, if anything, would AQ NOT like about the Pelosi plan?

Vanceone on February 23, 2007 at 3:39 PM

Free our troops to fight them in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
A prerequisite to becoming less reviled by the rest of the world (perhaps anyway).

Ah, it’s honora. I’d ask you to show me where Dems DON’T cheer the destruction of Israel.

Huh?

And my point is: if you accept that American Jews are overwhelmingly Dems, then they are either blindly against their own interests or your interpretation is wrong. Think about it: who is better equipped to make this judgment–you or the 5 or 6 million Jews in our country?

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:55 PM

honora,

However, conditions that could lead to civil war do exist, especially in and around Baghdad, and concern regarding civil war runs high among the Iraqi populace. Within the four provinces where the overwhelming majority of attacks occur (Anbar, Baghdad, Salah ad Din, and Diyala), violence remains localized to mixed neighborhoods. The Iraqi institutions of the center are holding, and members of the current government have not openly abandoned the political process. Decisive leadership by the Government of Iraq, supported by the United States and its Coalition partners, could mitigate further movement toward civil war and curb sectarian violence. Iraqi leaders must take advantage of the popular support for a unified Iraq and the opposition to violence to form institutions that take responsibility for Iraq’s security.

How’s that porthole installation coming along?

csdeven on February 23, 2007 at 3:55 PM

OK, lets try that again….

honora,

However, conditions that could lead to civil war do exist, especially in and around Baghdad, and concern regarding civil war runs high among the Iraqi populace. Within the four provinces where the overwhelming majority of attacks occur (Anbar, Baghdad, Salah ad Din, and Diyala), violence remains localized to mixed neighborhoods. The Iraqi institutions of the center are holding, and members of the current government have not openly abandoned the political process. Decisive leadership by the Government of Iraq, supported by the United States and its Coalition partners, could mitigate further movement toward civil war and curb sectarian violence. Iraqi leaders must take advantage of the popular support for a unified Iraq and the opposition to violence to form institutions that take responsibility for Iraq’s security.

How’s that porthole installation coming along?

csdeven on February 23, 2007 at 3:58 PM

honora, are you going to deny that AQ is, at the very least, a major cause of the violence in Iraq?

Rick on February 23, 2007 at 3:51 PM

They are a secondary cause, according to our own military. But that is really not the issue: if the only rationale we have for our continued occupation of Iraq is to fight Al Q, I suggest we have allowed ourselves to be drawn into battling these guys in environs that favor them and their goals: they can hide, they can use our guys as target practice, they can draw this out indefinitely.

honora on February 23, 2007 at 4:00 PM

Well either they’re really, really dumb or your premise is incorrect–that Dems cheer the destruction of Israel.

honora on February 23, 2007 at 3:29 PM

honora, Atila is correct. I don’t know why but for some reason it seems many American Jews have. I believe if you would climb out of your ivory tower once in a while you would see this but you’re too busy playing the role of smarty pants to deign to talk to those who don’t agree with you rationally.

Catie96706 on February 23, 2007 at 4:01 PM

Did I just hear Honora suggest we send troops into Pakistan?!?

db on February 23, 2007 at 4:02 PM

I suggest we have allowed ourselves to be drawn into battling these guys in environs that favor them and their goals:

honora

and where my friend do you propose to fight them? Which battlefield will AQ pour their massed strength into?

Limerick on February 23, 2007 at 4:03 PM

OK, lets try that again….

honora

Is this the “not bothering with you” part? Try some self discipline.

honora on February 23, 2007 at 4:03 PM

But that is really not the issue: if the only rationale we have for our continued occupation of Iraq is to fight Al Q, I suggest we have allowed ourselves to be drawn into battling these guys in environs that favor them and their goals: they can hide, they can use our guys as target practice, they can draw this out indefinitely.

Bingo. We can’t win the war because the rules of engagement favor jihadists. So the answer is either change the rules of engagement, or go home.

Now I wouldn’t have a problem with casting off the Geneva Conventions, but I know that’s not going to happen. Therefore the Murtha/Pelosi/Al Qaeda plan is the only alternative.

What – y’all thought life was fair?

Enrique on February 23, 2007 at 4:03 PM

Here’s your centrist Dem point of view:
1: Thank the good Lord some of the Dems have enough huevos to tell Murtha where to shove it. I liked him early on, but something has happened to him. I think he’s blinded by the attention given to him.
2: I don’t like Cheney, I think he’s a propagandist who implies things w/o saying them outright. Aside from the last throes thing. Yall may love him for his enormous brass balls (and I give him props for that, cuz Nancy needs to shut it) but he really is a liability for the Reps, IMHO. Or maybe not, maybe he’s your wetworks guy, eh?
3: Who’s driving the violence in Iraq? Muslims, that’s who. And they all hate us. Even if we quell the current situation, it’ll flare up again sooner or later. This is gonna get worse before it gets better, so suck it up and deal.The sooner my Democratic and liberal friends are shown this truth the better. That being said, I don’t give diddly squat what AQ agenda is in concurrence with ours. Nothing irritates me more when this is used as an attacking point on Dems. If we stay in Iraq

because

AQ wants us gone, it’s still letting them have influence on our policy. Are we waiting to leave when AQ says they want us to stay there? No, we’re staying to kick terrorist and insurgent butt and try to stabilize this country.

SouthernDem on February 23, 2007 at 4:05 PM

honora, Atila is correct. I don’t know why but for some reason it seems many American Jews have. I believe if you would climb out of your ivory tower once in a while you would see this but you’re too busy playing the role of smarty pants to deign to talk to those who don’t agree with you rationally.

Catie96706 on February 23, 2007 at 4:01 PM

Completely off the point, but I don’t think I have often seen the term “smarty pants” and the term “deign” in the same sentence…kinda cute!!!

honora on February 23, 2007 at 4:05 PM

Darnit, that should have been because

SouthernDem on February 23, 2007 at 4:06 PM

In the end, Democrats, no matter how “moderate” they are, will continue doing exactly what Murtha outlined. It’s in their blood, so to speak, to bleed troops whenever they can.

spmat on February 23, 2007 at 4:09 PM

I guess this means Lieberman won’t be “jeffordizing” anytime soon afterall.

.

GT on February 23, 2007 at 4:10 PM

honora on February 23, 2007 at 4:05 PM

I see the attention hound is back… who rattled your cage?

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 23, 2007 at 4:10 PM

I see the attention hound is back… who rattled your cage?

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 23, 2007 at 4:10 PM

When did you turn into one of the ill-bred? That’s a shame, you use to have some manners as I recall.

honora on February 23, 2007 at 4:14 PM

… I suggest we have allowed ourselves to be drawn into battling these guys in environs that favor them and their goals: they can hide, they can use our guys as target practice, they can draw this out indefinitely.

honora on February 23, 2007 at 4:00 PM

…or we can force our well-trained, best & brightest to run away, and then AlQ will have that much more time, that many more resources, and that much more self-importance to find ways to rid the world of those of us who are neither well-trained nor best & brightest. Makes perfect sense to me!
/snark

lan astaslem on February 23, 2007 at 4:14 PM

Why is it that honora can’t think, say, believe or contribute anything positive to any discussion or argument here at HA? Always critizing good people’s efforts and pandering to lefties and liberals. Always cherry picking a point and then preaching it relentlessly. Utilizing the common liberal method of accusing the opposition of exactly the same. All this and yet it’s obvious to everyone that she doesn’t know her azz from a hole-in-the-ground. And when all else fails she’ll bring out the lame-lib humor attempt.

Makes it real easy to understand how her party’s leadership became so lame and why they stink of slime and scum. Liberal leadership not patriotic? You better believe it.

Griz on February 23, 2007 at 4:15 PM

When did you turn into one of the ill-bred? That’s a shame, you use to have some manners as I recall.

honora on February 23, 2007 at 4:14 PM

So did you as I recall…

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 23, 2007 at 4:16 PM

Why is it that honora can’t think, say, believe or contribute anything positive to any discussion or argument here at HA? Always critizing good people’s efforts and pandering to lefties and liberals. Always cherry picking a point and then preaching it relentlessly. Utilizing the common liberal method of accusing the opposition of exactly the same. All this and yet it’s obvious to everyone that she doesn’t know her azz from a hole-in-the-ground. And when all else fails she’ll bring out the lame-lib humor attempt.

Makes it real easy to understand how her party’s leadership became so lame and why they stink of slime and scum. Liberal leadership not patriotic? You better believe it.

Griz on February 23, 2007 at 4:15 PM

And you guys wonder why I’m a Democrat…..LOL

honora on February 23, 2007 at 4:18 PM

Griz on February 23, 2007 at 4:15 PM

Actually, I usually like having honora around. Sometimes it gets a little dull when there are no viewpoints that seriously differ from your own. However, today’s comments seem to have taken on a harsher tone. Maybe honora’s having a bad day…

lan astaslem on February 23, 2007 at 4:19 PM

SouthernDem on February 23, 2007 at 4:05 PM

You must not be very liked by your liberal friends.

Rick on February 23, 2007 at 4:21 PM

Actually, I usually like having honora around. Sometimes it gets a little dull when there are no viewpoints that seriously differ from your own. However, today’s comments seem to have taken on a harsher tone. Maybe honora’s having a bad day…

lan astaslem on February 23, 2007 at 4:19 PM

Ok, take a look at the dialogue between me and the various folks. Who’s harsh???

honora on February 23, 2007 at 4:21 PM

I think someone stole her nick. The old Honora at least attempted to use logic and facts. This new one has just devolved into a troll.

Sad too… I liked the old one. She was good for an argument. I might not of agreed with her, but I could at least stand her and would of taken her out for a beer after work.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 23, 2007 at 4:22 PM

So Cheney reiterates that a spade is indeed a spade, and hilarity ensues. Has Nancy called the White House yet, crying her eyes out? Did she really think that he was going to back down from the likes of her? I just hope she doesn’t have sense enough to STFU and digs the hole she’s in a little deeper.

Anything that’s bad for Pelousi and Murtha just has to be good for America.

ReubenJCogburn on February 23, 2007 at 4:26 PM

Hmmm… lets see…

Honora wants us to stop supporting a government that wants us there… and go invade Pakistan??? You know… a NUCLEAR POWER!!!! An invasion for which we would have NO legal pretext at all? An invasion into the home turf in the MOUNTAINS of Pakistan where a lot of our Mobile Warfare tactics won’t work?

All so that we are not fighting them on terrain, which Honora says, is of THEIR choosing??? When, oh… we chose the battlefeild in the first place??? (remember, we kinda invaded???).

FACT is that Al Qs strategy IS based on destroying the morale here in America by dragging out the conflict. Its in Bin Ladens writings… he sites Beruit (was there), Mogadishu, and Nam, as examples of how America is so morraly bankrupt it will defeat itself… JUST LIKE IT IS CURRENTLY DOING!!!!!

As far as WAR goes?? We have taken less casulties in Iraq than we used to loose to ACCIDENTS in the 80’s. They are loosing MANY more fighters over there than we are. But our MSM never bothers to report that little fact. So it looks like we’re loosing WHEN WE ARE NOT!!!

Romeo13 on February 23, 2007 at 4:29 PM

The Blue Dog Dems don’t stand a chance in hell. Sorry SouthernDem but the nutroots have your party by the gumballs. By the end of summer the entire party will be marching in neon paisleys and bell bottoms. It is going to be a long long 20 months.

Limerick on February 23, 2007 at 4:32 PM

A pity the Blue Dogs had to wait for Murtha to be exposed publically before saying anything. But I’ll just be happy enough that those Blue Dogs are now on record saying what they have.

major john on February 23, 2007 at 4:32 PM

Democrats Own Defeat. No wondering about that, LOL.

RushBaby on February 23, 2007 at 4:34 PM

Ok, take a look at the dialogue between me and the various folks. Who’s harsh???

C’mon, we all know you’re the button-pusher. :)

Enrique on February 23, 2007 at 4:38 PM


viewpoints that seriously differ from our own is one thing.

Harsh, ignorant one-line zingers is a completely different deal. Which is exactly where she defaults to everytime and in every instance.

E.L. Frederick said it best. She’s devolved into a troll.

Griz on February 23, 2007 at 4:41 PM

And my statement was that if we adopt the Pelosi policy, that then we will validate the strategy of al-Qaida.

I like that. Let’s give it a name and get to stick to her like stink on sh*t. Let’s see her dance as she tries to deny that the Pelosi Policy is not what it really is: surrender and defeat.

Mallard T. Drake on February 23, 2007 at 4:48 PM

or we could:

get to IT stick to her like stink on sh*t.

Mallard T. Drake on February 23, 2007 at 4:49 PM

SouthernDem,

“Absolutely, we could take her him out.”

Kos…Markos…

…watch your back.

honora, c’mon, I try to stand up for you now and then because I like some of your ‘jumping in and getting things lively’. Nothing, however, gives away more your liberal leanings than the dual standards you offer/demand to/from us.

Examples: well-breeding, ‘walking the talk’, conviction vs. nuance, education, accusation/s, standards of conduct, harshness, politeness, etc. etc. I wrote you a nice long note not long ago about all this but I don’t think you ever read it. I was self-deprecating and accountable about my own shortcomings in it too. Just a friendly assessment and tool for winning arguments. Regards,

Entelechy on February 23, 2007 at 4:49 PM

or we could:

get IT to stick to her like stink on sh*t.

Sorry for taking up bandwidth for my poor typing and editing skills.

Mallard T. Drake on February 23, 2007 at 4:50 PM

Rick on February 23, 2007 at 4:21 PM

Mercifully, people in real life don’t act the same as commenters in the blogosphere, as in they realize there are other aspects to people besides their political opinions and are a little more hesitant to personally attack someone. But that’s a different thread.

SouthernDem on February 23, 2007 at 4:54 PM

honora on February 23, 2007 at 2:47 PM

Now read this quote, you seem to be getting dimmer with each time you post a stupid comment.

“If you’re going to advocate a course of action that basically is withdrawal of our forces from Iraq, then you don’t get to just do the fun part of that, that says, ‘We’ll, we’re going to get out,’ and appeal to your constituents on that basis,” Cheney said…
“You also have to be accountable for the results. What are the consequences of that? What happens if we withdraw from Iraq?,” he said. “And the point I made and I’ll make it again is that al-Qaida functions on the basis that they think they can break our will. That’s their fundamental underlying strategy, that if they can kill enough Americans or cause enough havoc, create enough chaos in Iraq, then we’ll quit and go home. And my statement was that if we adopt the Pelosi policy, that then we will validate the strategy of al-Qaida. I said it and I meant it.”

Where did he say the violence is only driven by AQ? Read it again. As usuall you make things up. If it is not some talking point that you are plagerizing, then it is something that you thought up…and is invariably wrong.
They are part of the force that is causing the chaos. Get it? Not the only one, it is the one that most of the public knows. He can’t list every faction, but they are connected. And it is the one that has listed these actions that you and your party are buying into. Cheney is stating the AQ manifesto (or the Pelosi/Murtha strategy).

You do not think that following that manifesto is what the Democrats are proposing?
My God you are dense. You proved it the other day, and you are proving it today.

right2bright on February 23, 2007 at 4:59 PM

“Maybe honora’s having a bad day…”

She’s still smarting from the ass-kicking she got over her tendency to hijack threads and plagiarize other’s works.

Poor baby…..

georgej on February 23, 2007 at 5:00 PM

Allah, In answer to your exit question. Has anyone done this poll in Isreal? Isn’t the American Jewish community mostly engaged in careers and institutions of higher learning where the lefts politics are prominant. I’ll take it a step further and ask how many Professors are Jewish and how many Jews are reoprting the news. Its a living Daling! The short answer, wo words Barbara Streisand.

sonnyspats1 on February 23, 2007 at 5:02 PM

two (sp)

sonnyspats1 on February 23, 2007 at 5:03 PM

Hey SouthernDem……BBQ…my house, 1 hour, keg included.

Draft Cheney. If you want to see the lefties true colors……Cheney/Newt. Of course I am dreaming….but oh what a lovely civil war it would make.

Limerick on February 23, 2007 at 5:04 PM

al-Qaeda in Iraq has continued its main strategy of instigating sectarian violence using high profile attacks against Shi’a civilians. – report

The report clearly states that the major issue is and has been the sectarian violence. – Honora

And Honora thinks Al-Qaeda has nothing to do with the sectarian violence, or it’s at least not really related. Al-Qaeda isn’t driving anything here.

I suggest we have allowed ourselves to be drawn into battling these guys in environs that favor them and their goals: they can hide, they can use our guys as target practice, they can draw this out indefinitely. – Honora

Sure, lets fight them inside the U.S. borders instead. Run that up the flagpole and see who salutes. Isn’t that where AQ would rather fight the Americans? Wasn’t that where we started this?

If our intended goal in this age is the establishment of a caliphate in the manner of the Prophet … Expel the Americans from Iraq. – Zawahiri”

So, pulling out of Iraq doesn’t meet their step one how? In what way is that not precisely what AQ wants?

gekkobear on February 23, 2007 at 5:05 PM

Nothing, however, gives away more your liberal leanings than the dual standards you offer/demand to/from us.

Yeah, but everyone does that. We all hold ourselves to different standards then we hold other people, i.e., we make more excuses for ourselves. I don’t think that’s a liberal thing, it’s a human thing.

Enrique on February 23, 2007 at 5:05 PM

Enrique, we agree, in general human traits terms – however, no one is more overt about it on this thread than our friend honora.

Entelechy on February 23, 2007 at 5:09 PM


Nothing, however, gives away more your liberal leanings than the dual standards you offer/demand to/from us.
Yeah, but everyone does that. We all hold ourselves to different standards then we hold other people, i.e., we make more excuses for ourselves. I don’t think that’s a liberal thing, it’s a human thing.

Enrique on February 23, 2007 at 5:05 PM

Nope. It’s a liberal thing. That’s why they think Clinton was the perfect president and ‘W’ has been a fool.

Griz on February 23, 2007 at 5:14 PM

What Honora needs to do is go over to the “When moonbats atack” and read catie92706 on February 22,2007 at 5:08.

She has to realize that we have had enough of her and her party’s rude and violent behaviour. This is the party that she supports. No Democrat is denouncing these acts of violence, and they are encouraging them on their hateful websites. Even one of their presidential candidates hired two of these hatchet men(?).
We don’t need to be nice to people that support violence against common, decent people.
If she wants to be part of a group that caters to extremists than she has to take the heat.
She is a fool, which is why she is a Democrat. We do not want to convince her to become a conservative, we do not want people like her representing us.

right2bright on February 23, 2007 at 5:17 PM

See above : “And the point I made and I’ll make it again is that al-Qaida functions on the basis that they think they can break our will. That’s their fundamental underlying strategy, that if they can kill enough Americans or cause enough havoc, create enough chaos in Iraq, then we’ll quit and go home.

By me, that’s saying that Al Q is driving the violence in Iraq. No?

No necessarily. You are confusing necessary with sufficient. AQ could be 1/10 of 1 percent of the forces in Iraq and the statement by Cheney would still be true. AQ wants us out of Iraq–still true, even if it’s only one guy. And “the havoc” doesn’t necessarily have to be military havoc, given the gullible nature of the Dems. A few well placed videos incorporating Michale Moore soundbites might be enough to get the nutroots on board for a withdrawal. Havoc might also be very well placed suicide bombings, guaged for maximum political and PR effect. If, by whatever means, AQ is able to get us out of Iraq, us leaving would mean they have accomplished their goal. Their could still be any other number of factors at work, but if AQ wants us out, and we leave–they have fulfilled, or in this case we have fulfilled–their objective. No?

smellthecoffee on February 23, 2007 at 5:18 PM

I think someone stole her nick. The old Honora at least attempted to use logic and facts. This new one has just devolved into a troll.

Sad too… I liked the old one. She was good for an argument. I might not of agreed with her, but I could at least stand her and would of taken her out for a beer after work.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 23, 2007 at 4:22 PM

I’ve only seen one smart-assed, mocking, nasty honora here but maybe the beer goggles help a lot!

Jen the Neocon on February 23, 2007 at 5:21 PM

Why do you people consistantly try to explain the obvious to te uninformed.

Jello shots and serial monkey killings are far more productive

Ringmaster on February 23, 2007 at 5:23 PM

Kick’n her ass again. I think she likes it.

Reminds me of this very overweight and not very pretty or popular girl on campus. Used to come in on Monday and tell the biggest lies of going to Hollywood parties, dancing with so and so at clubs.
She loved the attention, but never could realize that everyone was laughing at her, and not with her. Poor thing, she just kept on trying. She thought she was so smart and “in”. Years later, ran into her, she told me of the great marriage, successful husband, etc., turned out she never married. She is probably posting somewhere in cyber space. Trying to be the center of attention…poor thing.

right2bright on February 23, 2007 at 5:27 PM

In that vein, leave it to honora to hijack the thread and totally change the topic from the triumph of Dhimmicrat centrism to one where Dick Cheney’s integrity is challenged…
We must be winning against the Loony Left peaceniks!
I have maintained since the November election that those who voted for the Dems did NOT vote against the war, but rather for “more” war, or a change if you will, in the way the war was being fought.
The recent poll results bear this out–Most Americans want us to take the gloves off and win the war.
The Dem electorate is not behind withdrawal or revoking the President’s war powers or even “drawing down” the troops and this show of force against Murtha and his clique proves it.

Jen the Neocon on February 23, 2007 at 5:28 PM

Jen the Neocon on February 23, 2007 at 5:28 PM

Thanks Jen, that is one of the things she was nailed for the other day. But if she is going to hijack, she should at least be accurate and not lie. Poor thing.

The Dems have painted themselves into a corner. America does not like losers, and the Dems are defining themselves as losers. The reason the public dislikes the word chickenhawk is not because of the word hawk.

right2bright on February 23, 2007 at 5:36 PM

The recent poll results bear this out–Most Americans want us to take the gloves off and win the war.

Yeah, but that won’t happen. We can’t take the gloves off for the same reason that Israel couldn’t take the gloves off against Hezbollah. We’re expected to uphold a different standard – a Foucaulian standard, if you will -that says the state that wields greater power can never be justified in the use of that power, while the state or non-state actor that wields less power must always be sympathetic. This is the world we live in.

Thus the reality is that we’re the bad guys. Truth isn’t a matter of facts – it’s a matter of what most people believe. And as long as most people believer we’re the bad guys, then that’s the truth.

Which is why we need to leave Iraq. Not because it’s the right thing or the moral thing, but because it’s the inevitable thing.

Enrique on February 23, 2007 at 5:49 PM

Thus the reality is that we’re the bad guys. Truth isn’t a matter of facts – it’s a matter of what most people believe. And as long as most people believer we’re the bad guys, then that’s the truth.

No, the perception is we’re the bad guys. The truth is we’re the good guys.

Who are you really? Brian Williams?

fogw on February 23, 2007 at 5:53 PM

She has to realize that we have had enough of her and her party’s rude and violent behaviour. This is the party that she supports. No Democrat is denouncing these acts of violence, and they are encouraging them on their hateful websites. Even one of their presidential candidates hired two of these hatchet men(?).
We don’t need to be nice to people that support violence against common, decent people.
If she wants to be part of a group that caters to extremists than she has to take the heat.
She is a fool, which is why she is a Democrat. We do not want to convince her to become a conservative, we do not want people like her representing us.

right2bright on February 23, 2007 at 5:17 PM

What you said. Absolutely!

georgej on February 23, 2007 at 5:53 PM

No it’s not the inevitable thing. What’s inevitable is that we have to win this war and press on to victory.
Truth of it is, we can’t afford to leave until or unless the job is done or no-one in the world will ever take us seriously again, starting with Iran.
Britain can’t afford to leave either, but they’re too stupid or too scared to admit it and stop their withdrawal.

Jen the Neocon on February 23, 2007 at 5:55 PM

Don’t let honora control the thread by making it into something it’s not. this is now a thread about whether Cheney thinks al Qaeda is the driving factor of violence (and they are a major contribtuer to the violence, honora) this is a thread about two things:

1. The Democrats are ar beginning to back away from the slow bleed strategy now that the public understand what the Democrats were planing.

and

2. Cheney stands behind what he says and Madam Speaker can stop her feet all she wants, she will not get an apology from Cheney.

honora, whether you like to admit it or not, a lot of the violence in Iraq is committed by al Qaeda members. Al Qaeda has stated seberal times that the defeat of US forces in Iraq is now their primary goal and they are carrying out attacks against US and allied forces in an atempt to achieve that goal.

RedinBlueCounty on February 23, 2007 at 6:42 PM

It is inevitable that we leave Iraq. The conservatives want to win before leaving and the libs want us to leave regardless.

WE can win in Iraq and I’d bet dollars to donuts that we would be further down the path to winning if the traitorous liberals would put the energy they expend trying to lose this war into supporting the efforts to win the war.

csdeven on February 23, 2007 at 6:53 PM

Which is why we need to leave Iraq. Not because it’s the right thing or the moral thing, but because it’s the inevitable thing.

Leaving Iraq is not inevitable, staying in Iraq is. Leaving Iraq would be a big mistake, just like it was in Europe after WWI. Leaving Iraq would plunge that country in chaos ether now or in the near future and that is not something we can not afford. We have permanent bases in Kuwait after we liberated that country and kicked Saddam’s troops out, and we will do the same in Iraq now. Having permanent bases in Iraq will insure that Iraq doesn’t become another Cambodia in the 70’s and 80’s or Europe in the 30’s and 40’s. We’re in Iraq now to stay and I think most of the Iraqi people like that idea.

RedinBlueCounty on February 23, 2007 at 6:54 PM

opps, I wish there was a preview function here. That should read “that is not something we can afford” and not “that is not something we can not afford”. My bad.

RedinBlueCounty on February 23, 2007 at 7:00 PM

I’ve only seen one smart-assed, mocking, nasty honora here but maybe the beer goggles help a lot!

Jen the Neocon on February 23, 2007 at 5:21 PM

Never met her in person. She strikes me as a member of the AARP crowd who’s yuppy bastard DINK son got her a computer so she’d quit calling and bugging him.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on February 23, 2007 at 7:03 PM

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