Propecia dia siguiente….

The internets are one weird place, to be sure. It’s not the pervy pedophillic Congressmen that freak us out so much as the mind-meld cult of the burn books for Jesus and Robert E. Lee crowd. Por ejemplo: for……

You seem to be making the argument that, by selling parts for F-16’s, we would somehow be able to insure victory over Chavez’s air force since we can defeat F-16’s in air to air combat and we may not be able to do the same with other aircraft. That isn’t a very good argument as recent history has shown that the the U.S. can achieve victory over ANYONE’S air force in a short amount of time no matter what the capabilities that air force has. It really doesn’t matter what fighter aircraft they use, Venezuela’s air force would be no match for the U.S. and would be decimated within days, and quite possibly hours, by a US assault.

Why sell parts to someone that is not an ally of the US and would most likely use his air force not against us but against his own people?

I would not want to have this country supplying military parts to Venezuela and more than I want us to supply Cuba or North Korea. Let Chavez buy aircraft and parts from other countries, we’ll blow them apart just as quickly and easily.

Houston is not the city of oil rich urban cowboys anymore, it’s now the city of by the number liberals like Lee. It’s basically a scummier version of extremely liberal Austin Tx. And because of that, Houston is quickly becoming a city no one wants to deal with.

forged rite on February 22, 2007 at 2:55 PM

Now, ya’ll be nice about Houston. I was born and raised there. It might have some warts, but it’s my hometown. be nice.

What is wrong with you people?

As I linked above, there is one bastion of non-anti-Americanism in the Venezuelan armed forces, it’s their Air Force. An Air Force cannot survive without strong relations with their suppliers (e.g., us). An Air Force dependant on the US for the parts, training, technical expertise is not a threat to us. Iranian F14s started falling out of the sky when they went up against Iraq (our ally) in the 80’s.

A Venezuelan Air Force also going to be resentful of any dictatorial leader who would treat them as anything less than the elite they really are. They’re going to be less willing to leap to the will of a tyrant at odds with their best friends simply as a matter of survival.

A Mistake in the count of Aircraft due to intra Series Designations:

Make that total
24 F-16s
47 Mirages
44 F5s
24 Su-30 (4 delivered)

Make that a fifth of Chavez’ active airforce rather than a fourth.

Spare parts for his 24 F16s are hardly going to ’soak up his military funds’. Gimme a break.

When those Ruskie birds start falling outta the sky THAT will soak up his military funds. Spare parts? I’m sure that booming Russian economy can keep him fixed up just fine. In the mean time I’ll go with what MSimon said above:

It is not the airplane it is the pilot.
Goodnight Jones. I’ll leave you with the last word.

Limerick on February 23, 2007 at 12:22 AM

The Combat aircraft of Venezeula
18 F-5
17 Mirage III
18 F-16
24 Su-30 (4 delivered)

Do I think we could soak up Chavez’ military funds with spare parts for a quarter of his Combat Airforce?

YES.

Chavez simply doesn’t have the budget of the USA.

The GDP of Venezuela is roughly that of Iowa.

As for Pilots, They are Human.

And it is only arrogance to think that a human from another country can not train up to the level of a US Pilot simply because he was born somewhere else.

Every Dollar he spends on aging F-16s is a Dollar Chavez cannot use to buy more advanced fighters. Fighters that can easily take out our F-18s, are a fair match against our F-15, and may even be a match against the JSF.

Do we:

#1 Sell F-16 parts to Chavez at a premium? Thereby preventing him from A: upgrading his airforce by soaking up his military funds, and B: directing those funds to the American Defense Industry.

OR

#2 We Stop selling Chavez F-16 parts? forcing him to A: use his funds to upgrade to SU-30s or even more superior aircraft that pose a greater threat to our own fighters, AND B: in buying those fighters, supplying our strategic competitors (the Chinese and the Russians) with funds for their defense industries?

I would rather we prevent Chavez from upgrading by soaking up his funds. And yes, Venezuela is a small enough country for us to be able to do just that.

When those Ruskie birds start falling outta the sky THAT will soak up his military funds. Spare parts? I’m sure that booming Russian economy can keep him fixed up just fine. In the mean time I’ll go with what MSimon said above:

It is not the airplane it is the pilot.

Goodnight Jones. I’ll leave you with the last word.

Look Jones….I enjoyed the joust. You and I aren’t that different. I understand your argument. I disagree with it.
The operational capabilities of his F16s are now. Not 09, or 10, now. Anything we can do to screw with those capabilities, and his credibility, is worth it. If all the weapon systems you listed are as good as you claim then those 24 Su-30k’s are just another target.

So as for not ‘winning the debate’…..Bahahahahahahahahahaha

Limerick on February 23, 2007 at 12:03 AM

I apologise, I believe that there must be a mis-understanding here.

I thought that this topic was a question of which option was better or worse.

Whether we:

#1 Sell F-16 parts to Chavez at a premium. Thereby preventing him from upgrading his airforce by soaking up his military funds, and directing those funds to the American Defense Industry.

OR

#2 We Stop selling Chavez F-16 parts, and he uses his funds to upgrade to SU-30s or even more superior aircraft that pose a greater threat to our own fighters, AND in buying those fighters, supplying our strategic competitors (the Chinese and the Russians) with funds for their defense industries.

But then again, this nation IS concerned with instant gratification without any consideration for long term planning.

My Mistake.

So as for not ‘winning the debate’…..Bahahahahahahahahahaha

I’ll make sure I pass that along to the Honorable Sheila Jackson-Lee for ya Jones. I’m sure she will agree with you.

Limerick on February 22, 2007 at 11:45 PM

Interesting. You can’t win in a debate against my point about which option is better or worse, so you try to associate me with an incompetent bufoon like Sheila Jackson-Lee.

She wants “Better relations with Chavez”

For me “Better relations with Chavez” would mean “We Killed Him and gave him a nice tombstone.”

The fact is that Rep. Jackson-Lee is making the Right choice but for the wrong reason. It happens. A Broken Analog Clock is correct twice a day.

Apparently, the same can be said for Democrats.

And to quote your quote:[I]n all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory.-Sun Tsu “The Art of War”—-

hmmmmmm wonder if we mighta sandbagged that exercise? Nah…couldn’t be.

I suggest you check your link.

You want to sell to Chavez…pick up the phone.

Limerick on February 22, 2007 at 11:38 PM

Okay, a More Direct Link for you.

Now, it is fine to attack an indirect sourcing, but the implication was that the point was incorrect.

When Chavez was denied US parts he went ahead ane bought some Su-30k Flankers.

They’re better than F-16s.

Therefore you have a choice:

Option #1 Keep Chavez from Upgrading by soaking up his funds with F-16 parts.

OR

Option #2 Force him to upgrade.

To me, the concequences of him upgrading AND giving that money to our rivals represents the worse option of the two.

You want to sell to Chavez…pick up the phone.

Jones….you actually posted as your ‘proof’ war game analysis from the Iran Defense Forum?????….

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Limerick on February 22, 2007 at 11:26 PM

Actually it’s an article from The Christian Science Monitor.

Are saying that the F-16 is superior to the Su-30k?

See Boyd of OODA fame.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Yeah Jones…..right….guess that is why the U.S. Air Force still has over 2000 F16s in inventory. Nostalgia.

Glad you aren’t in the State Department. We might invoke the Monroe Doctrine on Canada or something.

Limerick on February 22, 2007 at 11:01 PM

No, The Airforce has over 2000 F16s because they make a solid ground attack fighter that can defend itself from most fighter threats… and we already have them.

But here you prove my point for me When Chavez was denied US parts he went ahead ane bought some Su-30k Flankers.

Guess what. They’re better than F-16s.

So either we keep him in F-16s, or he upgrades.

Obviously any fighter is deadly. The Red Barron’s Bi-Plane could kill someone in a Cessna even today.

But you have a choice: keep Chavez from Upgrading by soaking up his funds OR force him to upgrade. To me, the concequences of him upgrading AND giving that money to our rivals represents the worse option of the two.

It might be time to question someone’s patriotism.

Patriotism questioned. Done.

Jackson Lee described Venezuela as a friendly nation that the U.S. should cooperate with and said that the F-16 jets, which are built in Texas, was an issue of concern to her constituents in Houston.

Friendly nations’ leaders call the leaders of nations they are friends with “the devil”? News to me.

Glad you aren’t in the State Department. We might invoke the Monroe Doctrine on Canada or something.

[I]n all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory.

Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible as Heaven and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun and moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four seasons, they pass away to return once more….

[A] wise general makes a point of foraging
on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy’s provisions
is equivalent to twenty of one’s own, and likewise
a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty
from one’s own store.

-Sun Tsu “The Art of War”

And by these words I fight. I am not an “Honorable Frontal Assault” guy. I believe in using stealth and guile to weaken opponents so that they either choose not to fight OR if they fight, they have already been rendered outmatched.

To say the F-16s would be useful to Chavez would indeed be accurate. However, against the US Military, an F-16 against a JSF or F-22 would be as effective as a P-51 against an F-86.

If Venezuela had no other option for Fighters, then I would agree with not selling them anything.

BUT in the real world where Russia is willing to sell anyone anything if they have the money, any chance we have to prevent that should be taken.