Great stuff here! I’ll definitely bookmark this place and come back soon….

I have a very simply test for Christianity. I just ask them what they would tell a man on his deathbed what he needed to know to receive forgiveness to get to heaven. Even though my husband is Mormon, he passed my test and I passed his. All the rest it just Sinful Humans attempting to explain and understand fully what and how God works. Being Sinful Human, we’re never going to get it right anyway. Each generation will have our own Point of Extreme Importance to be debated. Our Humanity splits us up into denominations but our love of Jesus allow us to call each other Christian Brothers and Sisters.

Politics:

In recent decades, the idea that the old kingdom of the Hebrews should be restored to the Jews as part of the end times has become quite popular. Now, Mormons don’t believe this at all, believing instead that the kingdom of God will be established at Salt Lake City and that America is the New Promised Land. So, if a Mormon is President, this plays greatly against foreign accusations that Jews are in control of America and the Christians are in cahoots with them. No Mormon President can be accused of siding with the Jews just because of their religion or against Muslim just because of their religion. There will be no basis for this attack anymore.

Foreign powers just might have to accept that we support the nation of Israel because they are a fellow Democratic power with rights for their peoples.

Okay, maybe I’m just dreaming. *sigh*

Decoy256 said, It is absolutely ludicrous that popular Christianity claims some universal truth about the “Jesus of the Bible” as if it has been a settled fact for centuries. Jeez! Learn your own religion’s history! The idea that we are saved by grace alone (no works necessary) is a VERY new idea and didn’t even gain wide popularity until the latter half of the 20th century.

Yea well, take your complaints up with the God of the Bible…

“…For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast…”

NRA4Freedom,

It is sad that you use the Lords teachings to puff yourself up like you do. I already explained to you that you fulfilled your requirement to witness to the heathens and you can dust your feet off. Yet you persist. Which Jesus taught you to do that?

csdeven on February 20, 2007 at 1:07 AM

I will “persist” as long as Mormons keep posting their false teachings concerning the God and the Jesus Christ of the Bible. But thanks for your concern.

It is sad that you use the Lords teachings to puff yourself up like you do. I already explained to you that you fulfilled your requirement to witness to the heathens and you can dust your feet off. Yet you persist. Which Jesus taught you to do that?

That’d be nice, except since it is the Jesus Christ of the Bible that willingly died in our place on the Cross and that it is those who believe, repent, and receive His sacrifice on their behalf who will be saved, don’t you think it is a pretty large stretch of your imagination to believe that the same holds true when the “jesus” in question is some other person than the Jesus spoken of in the Bible? There is ample evidence that proves that the theology surrounding the “jesus” of which Mormonism speaks is NOT compatable with the biblical description the Jesus Christ of which the Bible speaks.

Wow, you have a very narrow definition of the “Jesus of the Bible” and it pretty much excludes 99.99% of Christianity up until the latter half of the 20th century. You know, it doesn’t even matter how much BIBLICAL proof Mormons come up with that they are right, you will just redefine your Jesus to exclude whatever they show you.

It is absolutely ludicrous that popular Christianity claims some universal truth about the “Jesus of the Bible” as if it has been a settled fact for centuries. Jeez! Learn your own religion’s history! The idea that we are saved by grace alone (no works necessary) is a VERY new idea and didn’t even gain wide popularity until the latter half of the 20th century.

You talk about Mormons not knowing about their own religion, but I doubt any one of you could give even a small fraction of even just 19th century Christian theological/philosophical history.

Seriously, this is such a gross waste of time. Popular Christianity will continue living in their narrow understanding of the Bible and will be happy as clams telling Mormons they are going to hell, which Mormons don’t really believe the same thing about anyway (the “hell” most people will go to is actually a relatively nice place compared to the lake of fire and brimstone most popular Christianity is referring to… that place is reserved for a VERY select few who have really tried hard to fight all that is good). Mormons will continue reading and understanding the Bible and other scriptures and calling themselves Christians and will be happy as clams telling non-Mormons they aren’t going to become gods, which popular Christianity doesn’t care about anyway. So, oh well…

I am so very done trying to get the willfully ignorant to open their eyes. This conversation reminds of every conversation I have ever had with left-wing nut jobs. Same tactics, same mentality, different topic.

Anyone who wants to contact me to talk intelligently about religion (especially the philosophies behind religion) or politics can e-mail me… decoy256 at gmail dot com.

Don’t worry, I’ll stick around and as Mojave said, we can still go out and have a caffeine-free Coke after we’re done bickering about this nonsense. Have fun with the Bible-bashing, just count me out.

Gingrich in the running – then it will be a real match between both sides.

Emmett J

From your mouth to God’s ears(the God of the Bible that is). But I think it more likely that we will reap what we have sown and get what we deserve. We have been murdering our unborn and calling it a “right”, we have been courting and playing footsie with an agenda that the God of the Bible calls abhorrant, we have stood by and allowed God haters to systematically tear down the very Christian foundations of the United States, from our public schools to our venues of Justice. We have allowed the Godless among us to strive ever closer to a socialistic God forgotten society. We can hope and pray for a real miracle, but that may simply not be a part of God’s plan for us.

Free Constitution wrote, Gee whiz, And I thought those Bibles we Mormons have actually meant something. All those New Testament classes in Church about Jesus must be incompatible with the real Jesus since we are Mormons. Why don’t you just come out and say it? IS the King James Version not an acceptable Bible? Because that’s what we read. But you have no idea what you’re talking about.

I’m truly sorry, but there are huge differences between the Jesus Christ of the Bible and the Mormon version of “jesus”. First and foremost, the Jesus Christ of the Bible is not and never was Lucifer’s brother. Lucifer himself was created BY the Jesus Christ of the Bible, as an angel. The Lucifer of the Bible never had a “plan of redemption”. God, angels, and men, are not of the same species. The Jesus Christ of the Bible is not merely the “firstborn” of the God of the Bible, He is the ONLY begotten Son, and indeed, God Himself manifest in the flesh. We could go on, but there is no reason to, Mormon doctrines and the Bible are wholly incompatable to anyone who actually believes what God says in the Bible. I certainly wish it was not the case, but it is.

csdeven said, I’ve seen your type all my life. You feel the need to be right and feel obligated to enlighten those fooled by LDS teachings. Well, you have done so. Now you can dust your feet off to the heathens and enjoy the rightousness of knowing you did your job.

I guess I “feel the need” to bear witness to the truth of God’s written word. Not the non existant Mormon version of “god”, who was once a man and is one of many others like him, but the one true God that exists alone, the God of everything that exists, seen and unseen, the God of the Bible.

csdeven said, I will continue to ignore your rants because it’s obvious which spirit is motivating you. When you stand before the judgement seat and answer for this conversation, you will be confronted with the fact that your poor example of Christs teachings was a major reason why you were not listened to. And not just by me. How many others have read what you have written and recognized it as being at odds with Christs message?

Again, when I stand before God to give account, it will be before the only God that actually exists, the God of which the Bible speaks. If bearing witness to false doctrines of Mormonism makes me a “poor example of Christ’s teachings”, then it must be the false Mormon “christ” you are speaking of that it would be a poor example of, since the Bible clearly warns believers to watch for false teachers and false religions who will come preaching different christs, different gospels, and different gods. Mormonism does all of those things, and more. I’m sorry, but it is simple and obvious fact.

csdeven said, Peace to you and yours.

You even lie in your salutation? Whatever. The Jesus Christ of the Bible said “Think not that I have come to bring peace, but a sword.” The sword of the God of the Bible cleary divides and exposes false doctrines and teachings from the truth of God’s written word. It works very well as Mormonism is concerned.

The man has no substance, has not articulated any cogent ideas, and is essentially the “right’s” “rock star” ala Obama – and somewhat of a low rent version at that.

He is a spoiler, a flavor of the month at best. Religion and belief a diversion here serves to divide politically and garner publicity when no substance can be found.

Dispose of the theatrics and let’s get Gingrich in the running – then it will be a real match between both sides.

icelandicfarmer on February 19, 2007 at 10:19 PM

If you were a christian you’d know that my statement does not mean what you just said it meant.

Can we all agree that our own religion is the best way and let God decide?

I’ve seen your type all my life. You feel the need to be right and feel obligated to enlighten those fooled by LDS teachings. Well, you have done so. Now you can dust your feet off to the heathens and enjoy the rightousness of knowing you did your job.

I will continue to ignore your rants because it’s obvious which spirit is motivating you. When you stand before the judgement seat and answer for this conversation, you will be confronted with the fact that your poor example of Christs teachings was a major reason why you were not listened to. And not just by me. How many others have read what you have written and recognized it as being at odds with Christs message?

Peace to you and yours.

I do not have those problems where I live now, but I know in California and other places those kinds of attacks on the church are happening. You don’t hear about it because we as members don’t make a federal case of it. We bless them for their heartfelt conviction, but really just consider the source of their angst.

If they follow some other “jesus” whose message, theology, and doctrines are incompatable with the Jesus Christ of the Bible, then how can you intend to also call them “christians”?

-NRA4Freedom

Gee whiz, And I thought those Bibles we Mormons have actually meant something. All those New Testament classes in Church about Jesus must be incompatible with the real Jesus since we are Mormons. Why don’t you just come out and say it? IS the King James Version not an acceptable Bible? Because that’s what we read. But you have no idea what you’re talking about.

There’s a lot more than this but I think you all get the drift. Many Mormons are unaware of their own theology so it’s not unusual for a LDS member to deny this kind of stuff. People are free to believe what they want but the only thing I want to point out is that Momonism is not a denomination of Christianity any more than Islam is.

I always did love this kind of “logic”. Now, here is your challenge. Go to lds.org and find all that garbage you wrote in your post in the only thing that is canon and therefore binding upon me.. .in the LDS scriptures. Don’t be too shocked that you find the King James version of the Bible as part of those. An Award WINNING King James Version at that.

Don’t let the fact knock you on your butt.

William 2006,

Since the God of the Bible makes it clear in His word that not only can’t you “hitchhike your way to Heaven, or get there by just being good”(that’s from a song), arguing over how much someone gave or what they ever did that was “good” or “good enough” is neither here nor there, especially if the goal is only “getting in to Heaven”. The Standard for Heaven is perfection, and we all fall so far short of that it isn’t even worth discussing. The only means by which God has accorded mankind to escape the ultimate damnation that we all truly deserve is the blood of Jesus Christ, biblically speaking of course. Other religions certainly offer up all sorts of ways by which man can make himself pleasing to God or worthy of salvation, those who refuse to believe what the Bible says about it are perfectly free to sign on to any one of those other religions and take their chances accordingly, if they car enough one way or the other.

NRA4Freedom on February 19, 2007 at 7:54 PM

Eh,

“NRA4Freedom,”

My post above in which I told about those three people trying to enter heaven is a joke!

It is meant as humor.

Do you understand that?

Need I say it?

Do you have to be reminded to “Lighten Up!”?

If so, then Lighten Up!

William

Since the God of the Bible makes it clear in His word that not only can’t you “hitchhike your way to Heaven, or get there by just being good”(that’s from a song), arguing over how much someone gave or what they ever did that was “good” or “good enough” is neither here nor there, especially if the goal is only “getting in to Heaven”. The Standard for Heaven is perfection, and we all fall so far short of that it isn’t even worth discussing. The only means by which God has accorded mankind to escape the ultimate damnation that we all truly deserve is the blood of Jesus Christ, biblically speaking of course. Other religions certainly offer up all sorts of ways by which man can make himself pleasing to God or worthy of salvation, those who refuse to believe what the Bible says about it are perfectly free to sign on to any one of those other religions and take their chances accordingly, if they car enough one way or the other.

csdeven said, The discussion is about WHO gets to define others as “Christian”. The LDS church does not spend any amount of spiritual energy bashing others faith. I cannot say that about many “Christian” churches.

If one intends to follow the Jesus Christ of which the Bible speaks, then traditionally they would be called a “christian”. If they follow some other “jesus” whose message, theology, and doctrines are incompatable with the Jesus Christ of the Bible, then how can you intend to also call them “christians”? How about “LDS Christians” or something like that?

As for “bashing others faith”, your point might actually be perfectly correct if all religious roads led to God(the God of the Bible to be specific), as many want to believe is the case. But since the Jesus Christ of the Bible clearly says that is not the case, your point then is what exactly?

The three people died and were met at the gates of Heaven by the gate keeper, and Saint Peter.

“Welcome. You have died. These are the gates of Heaven. What would you like to do?” asked the gate keeper.

“I want to enter Heaven,” said the first person.

“And what have you done on earth while you were alive that you think qualifies you to enter into Heaven?” asked the gate keeper.

“Well, I helped the homeless. I fathered three children who became doctors and researchers and helped cure many diseases all over the world. I gave 20% of my pay to the poor. I attended church every Sunday, and helped with Church activities often. I also built a school for homeless children.”

The gate keep and Saint Peter looked into their Book of Life for the person’s name and to see if their qualifications met the criteria to enter heaven.

“You did well. You may enter Heaven.”

The next person, a woman, came forward.

“And what would you like to do?” asked the gatekeeper.

“I would like to enter Heaven” said the lady.

“What qualifies you to enter Heaven?” asked the gatekeeper, while Saint Peter looked on.

“I taught children in school, raised seven children of our own, all of them contributing to society, gave all my money to charity, accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, volunteered for missionary service, and donated my bodily organs to help others in need. I also became a nun before I died.”

The gatekeeper and Saint Peter looked over the woman’s record and considered her time on earth.

“You may enter Heaven. Congratulations!” said the gatekeeper with a smile and a nod from Saint Peter.

The third man came forward.

“And what would you like to do?” asked the gatekeeper with Saint Peter listening attentively.

“I would like to enter Heaven” said the man.

“Well, let’s see here” said the gate keeper as he and Saint Peter looked through the book of records section of the Book of Life.

They looked and looked and looked and looked.

“We have not found anything in the Book of Records in the Book of Life which shows that you have accomplished or done anything while you were alive which could get you into Heaven. In fact we see that you are extremely wealthy and you had opportunities to help others but you seem to have done nothing. Can you tell us any thing you have done which could qualify you to get into Heaven?”

The man thought and thought.

“I gave 15 cents to a blind man once” responded the wealthy man.

Saint Peter and the Gate keeper were puzzled. The man had done something good in his life, but they were not certain that he was qualified to enter Heaven.

“Is there anything else you did during your live that was good, or that qualifies you to get into Heaven?” asked the Gate Keeper.

“I gave a nickel to an orphan child” said the rich man.

The Gate Keeper and Saint Peter were troubled for they did not like to send people away from Heaven but they were concerned that this man did not qualify to enter.

“Is there anything else?” asked the Gate Keeper.

“I did give a dime to a charity once” said the man.

“Is there anything else?” asked the gate keeper.

“No, that is all” replied the man.

The gate keeper and Saint Peter pondered the information. The man had given 15 cents to a blind man, 10 cents to an orphan, and 5 cents to a charity. He had done some good things, but, still, they were concerned that this did not meet the standard required to enter heaven.

“I don’t know” said Saint Peter, “he did some good deeds, but that does not see like enough to be admitted into heaven. What do you think we should do?” asked Saint Peter of the Gate Keeper.

“I know, Saint Peter. Give him his 30 cents back and tell him to go to hell!”

Warn is one thing. Protesting outside an LDS church on Sunday, blocking driveways, and yelling lies about the church to the children of LDS families are entirely different actions. That is intimidation, rudeness, and arrogance. Every level of those tactics have been used against the LDS by “Christians”.

Wow, csdeven, I have to admit that is WAY more obnoxious than people coming to my house on a regular basis and politely telling me I’m wrong. BUT I took a minute to google for that and the only protest I could find like that was by that bastid Phelps and his demon spawn. So your scare quotes around the word “Christians” were completely appropriate. That is not normal Christian behavior in any sense of the word, everybody has repudiated him – just like the Romney critic was booed by the crowd.

You got anybody mainstream doing that? Because Phelps is not representative at all, any more than Warren Jeffs represents you.

icelandicfarmer on February 19, 2007 at 4:59 PM

The text you are referring to is a quote from God and not a point of contention used by the church to address those of other faiths. ALL churches believe their way is the ONLY way otherwise, why belive it? Have you ever read an anti-mormon website? If not, you should. After that you will understand the context of “disparage” as I used it.

BTW, it never crossed my mind that you were christian.

We should all live together in harmony regardless of our religious beliefs and we should accept each others beliefs as heartfelt

with no qualifications. I doubt no one’s sincerity. I’m not sure what “valid to that person” is supposed to mean. As for being judgmental, any person who genuinely believes in a faith by default believes that they are correct. That’s what believing is; you’ve made what you consider to be the best choice. There’s nothing at all wrong with that, and it’s not a bar to living in harmony with other people as long as we’re not forced to agree that all choices are equally correct when nobody truly believes that.