Video: Anti-Mormon heckler denounces Romney
posted at 7:11 pm on February 18, 2007 by Allahpundit
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And is promptly and appropriately booed for it. Alas, too late to prevent the sudden onset of heart-ache in our most hysterical pundit, who explains the crowd’s reaction as a sort of red-on-red “Christianist” operation before seizing on Romney’s remark at the end as proof of his own religious bigotry. Tom Bevan has details and speculates as to why the excitable one isn’t more excited about Rudy, whose “conservative soul” in many respects seems to resemble Sully’s. Maybe, hints Bevan, Sullivan’s politics are so invested now in slaying the evangelical dragon that he can’t afford a Giuliani victory. If the Bible Belt turns out for a pro-gay, pro-choice candidate, whither “Christianism”?
As for Sully slamming Romney for wanting a faith-based presidency, point taken. But why cry about it? Most people agree with him and that won’t be changing anytime soon. After all, it’s not Mormons bringing up the rear on this list:
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First of many cretins in this campaign, I’m sure.
flipflop on February 18, 2007 at 7:22 PM
I sense gay atheists will be having trouble capturing the White House. I see that heckler was in The Villages. Isn’t that supposed to be a friendly place?
JammieWearingFool on February 18, 2007 at 7:27 PM
Aw, Allah. Sorry, man, I guess you’ll never be President. Settle for a Prime Minister position elsewhere?
Savage on February 18, 2007 at 7:27 PM
One of the many things i hate about political campaigns is idiots like this. I’ll bet he spent a good amount of time rehearsing his little speech, probably in front of the mirror, all the while deluding himself into believing that his two cents was going to change the course of the campaign. And there is going to be many, many more just like him in the coming two years.
forged rite on February 18, 2007 at 7:28 PM
“Florida’s friendliest hometown”, according to the commercials.
Hey…didn’t that poll say where Muslims placed?
flipflop on February 18, 2007 at 7:30 PM
I thought he handled that well. Good sense of humor about it.
spmat on February 18, 2007 at 7:31 PM
Hey, at least he only made a speech. It could’ve been someone with a pistol.
jaleach on February 18, 2007 at 7:54 PM
Mitt proved he can think on his feet by his answer. Slightly reminiscent or Ronald Regan. Has anyone figured out how to mesh the Mormon beliefs about medical care, and the national health care system?
sonnyspats1 on February 18, 2007 at 7:56 PM
Forgive me, but what “religious beliefs” does Hillary Clinton follow?
I’ve heard her talk of the importance of Ramadan, I remember seeing her when First Lady in India with a “dot” on her head, I know she pandered to the Jewish community to win her Senate seat, I have heard her in Black Baptist church talking about the “new slavery”,….. “…and you know what I’m talking about, hmmm hmmm… {all ethnic and that}…….
So if Mitt is getting asked, “BO” is given a pass, what exatcly is the “Pant Suit” again? What about Al “my pants are on fire” Gore? Is enviornmentalist a religion? I think that is question for another thread……..
I also think we need score cards…….
PinkyBigglesworth on February 18, 2007 at 8:10 PM
I think the reason we don’t trust atheists to be president is because of their beady eyes.
Why didn’t they put Muslims on the list? I’d be curious in who wins between a Muslim and an atheist.
frankj on February 18, 2007 at 8:16 PM
C’mon AllahPundit, why don’t you just admit it? We all know that the REAL reason that you find the result of the Gallup poll so disturbing is because Americans approve of pathetic, old geezers that drool on themselves (like me) more than they do of atheists (like you) by a whopping 12% margin — or am I somehow misinterpreting “72 years old” bar?
CyberCipher on February 18, 2007 at 8:44 PM
What “Mormon beliefs about medical care” do you refer to?
ronsfi on February 18, 2007 at 8:59 PM
(From RCP)
Sully will claim, as he has done ad nauseum for the last six years, that he was right; that conservatives really aren’t;, that Christians really aren’t; and that everyone should listen to him alone. I still can’t figure out how someone virtually cheerleads for the socialists while calling himself the only real conservative.
Freelancer on February 18, 2007 at 9:04 PM
Methinks sonnyspats1 may have crossed wires between Mormons and JWs re: the health care thing.
Freelancer on February 18, 2007 at 9:06 PM
I don’t remember Mormonism being a factor when his father was running for the Repub nomination in the latter part of 1967. I recall that Dad said something really stupid which chased him out of the race by early 1968, but don’t remember what it was–but it had nothing to do with religion.
I got to ask his father a question about Berlin in Nov of 1967, and was impressed that he would come to a small college and actually talk and listen to a group of maybe 30–40 college students
If the Mormon Thing wasn’t a Big Deal forty years ago, how can it be a Big Deal now? I thought we had evolved, or something….
Janos Hunyadi on February 18, 2007 at 9:16 PM
I see his religion as being a big plus for him, not a negative. With the exception of Harry Reid I hold most mormons in high esteem.
lan astaslem on February 18, 2007 at 9:40 PM
As a confirmed Catholic-Buddist-Fundamentalist I will support anyone who is willing to empty the inventory of Daisy Cutters.
Limerick on February 18, 2007 at 9:42 PM
It didn’t help conservative Christians that Bill Clinton is a Baptist, and it won’t hurt if a Mormon gets elected. A few people will make an issue of it, but I think the majority of us care more about whether his policies are more in line with our faith, than his faith is.
Laura on February 18, 2007 at 9:45 PM
Allah….if you find that ‘other’ party please let me know….PLEASE.
I’ve been trying to put together the concept that religion = political righteousness and I can’t friggin figure it out.
Limerick on February 18, 2007 at 9:49 PM
George Romney talked about brainwashing in reference to a visit to Vietnam and his candidacy went down the tubes. He became known as the “brainwashed candidate” and too weak of a person to run for president. Weird, eh?
jaleach on February 18, 2007 at 10:07 PM
Has anyone figured out how to mesh the Mormon beliefs about medical care, and the national health care system?
What “Mormon beliefs about medical care” do you refer to?
ronsfi on February 18, 2007 at 8:59 PM
Methinks sonnyspats1 may have crossed wires between Mormons and JWs re: the health care thing.
Freelancer on February 18, 2007 at 9:06 PM
Oh Hmm I stand corrected sir. This Romney guy is worth another look!
sonnyspats1 on February 18, 2007 at 10:18 PM
As far as his religion helping or hurting his chances, it’ll help him with Christians until they realize that Mormons believe God was a man who lived on another world and came to Earth with one of his wives to have a baby, Jesus.
icelandicfarmer on February 18, 2007 at 10:31 PM
Or until we realize that Mormons believe people can eventually become gods, that there are many gods, that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, that Jesus was a polygamist, that baptizing people in the place of dead non-Mormons can get those dead people into a better spot in heaven…
Yeah, once I learn more about Mormons I will definitely forget about voting for Romney. Because Jimmy Carter the Baptist was so much more reflective of my beliefs.
Obviously I don’t speak for all Christians but if my choice is between Romney and any Democrat, then I’ll have no problem voting for Romney. Whether he gets my vote in the primary remains to be seen but I don’t rule it out.
Laura on February 18, 2007 at 10:41 PM
One of my best friends when I was a kid was Mormon. To see people like that makes me sick.
Nonfactor on February 18, 2007 at 10:56 PM
Sectarian violence.
John on February 18, 2007 at 11:23 PM
Laura’s right about what Mormons believe. I think Romney could do just fine as president and I too would vote for him above any democrat.
Quick primer on Momon theology (please fact-check me if you think I’m kidding or making ANYTHING up ’cause I’m totally not, I’m dead serious):
1) The God we worship used to be a man like me.
2) Good Momons will become Gods (that’s right, with a capital “G”) after death.
3) These Gods will have their own planets, have sex with their Goddesses, and make spirit babies.
4) These spirit beings will inhabit the souls of humans that are created in the flesh on a particular God’s planet.
5) Momon Gods can have lots of Goddesses to have celestial sex with. No polygamy in this life but it’s something they look forward to in the next life.
6) Jesus and Lucifer (before he turned into Satan) were brothers; Jesus just came up with a better redemption plan in the counsel of the Gods.
There’s a lot more than this but I think you all get the drift. Many Mormons are unaware of their own theology so it’s not unusual for a LDS member to deny this kind of stuff. People are free to believe what they want but the only thing I want to point out is that Momonism is not a denomination of Christianity any more than Islam is.
The truth is out there.
Mojave Mark on February 18, 2007 at 11:23 PM
>With the exception of Harry Reid I hold most mormons in high esteem.
Well, since Harry Reid is a blatant proponent of many things that go directly against official Mormon doctrine, I wouldn’t really look at him as an accurate example of a Mormon. He seems to indicate that he is a Mormon “in good standing,” but that just means that he hasn’t been excommunicated…yet.
Basically, he’s a MINO (Mormon In Name Only).
Doghouse on February 18, 2007 at 11:24 PM
Ya’ll I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.
All Ya’ll who wouldn’t vote for Romney cuz he’s a Mormon, need to turn off your TVs and especially your computer monitors because they were invented by a Mormon.
…That way we wont have to listen to yer stupid comments.
-Wasteland Man
WastelandMan on February 18, 2007 at 11:26 PM
>Or until we realize that Mormons believe people can eventually become gods
Since God is our father. And becoming a god (lower case) in that God gives us all that is His, is different from becoming God (upper case) in that we become equal to Him. No Mormon that understands Mormon doctrine believes that we somehow become equal with him. It’s different from the teachings of most of popular Christianity, yes, but not quite as spectacular or unique as some would like it to seem.
>That there are many gods.
See above. What else do you call a being that has become an heir with Jesus Christ of all that the Father has? If there is a more accurate word than “god” (lower case), then we can use that. Until then, we’ll have to deal with the English language as we have it.
There is only one God that we worship/answer to or that has anything to do with us.
>that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers
In the sense that all of us were created as spirit children of God the Father. Nothing too revolutionary or spectacular about that. Unless you don’t believe the Bible when it says that God is the father of our spirits.
>that Jesus was a polygamist
Hmmm. I’m not sure what religion you’re thinking of with that one, but it sure isn’t Mormonism. There isn’t even any official doctrine about whether Jesus was married or not. I have never met (or even heard of) a Mormon that thought that Jesus was a polygamist. Lots of the Old Testament prophets and patriarchs were, of course, as is clearly indicated in the Old Testament, but no normal Mormon would claim that we have evidence that Jesus was a polygamist. Any Mormon (or anyone else) saying that Jesus had one or more wives is speculating. The scriptures seem to be silent on the issue.
>that baptizing people in the place of dead non-Mormons can get those dead people into a better spot in heaven
Not unless those dead people that never had a chance to fulfill the commandment to be baptized during their lives actually accept the Savior and accept that ordinance that Jesus indicated as a requirement for salvation. Nobody is forced into salvation. Like any ordinance of the Gospel, it can be accepted or rejected, and it doesn’t mean anything unless the individual who receives the ordinance or has the ordinance performed by proxy (and if you believe in Christ’s atoning sacrifice, you believe in proxy) isn’t sincere.
>Mormons believe God was a man who lived on another world and came to Earth with one of his wives to have a baby, Jesus
Um, no we don’t. I keep hearing this, so I think there must be some science fiction show that people keep watching. (Or that they’re getting “information” from those poorly done frothing-at-the-mouth-and-glassy-eyed anti-Mormon websites that seem to like fiction so much.) We believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father, and that his mother was Mary. That’s pretty standard stuff. (And no, we don’t claim to know how that was accomplished, other than that the power of the Holy Ghost was upon Mary. Any Mormon–or anyone else, for that matter–who says anything else is just speculating.)
Again, disagree with Mormon doctrine if you will, but just make sure you’re disagreeing with real Mormon doctrine, or you look like an ignoramus. Especially if you try to make it sound more spectacular than it really is.
Seriously, I would think that in the year 2007, and after about 170 years of refuting the same hackneyed anti-Mormon drivel, people would be intelligent enough to not fall for the tabloid-like propaganda and pseudo-scholarship of the career anti-Mormons. Especially conservatives. Conservatives are supposed to have some common sense. Quit acting like liberals, people!
Doghouse on February 18, 2007 at 11:52 PM
Well, keep in mind that anyone’s religion seems more than a little nutty if you put it in the right (wrong) words.
I think that if Romney’s religion is an issue for you, you should take some time and take an objective, fair look at what Mormons really believe, not just the broad brush they are painted with. You know, we complain about the MSM glossing over important issues and painting Conservatives with a broad brush, but then many of us will gladly do the same thing to Mormons or Jews or Muslims.
In the end, talk like this is just closed-minded bigotry, it doesn’t strengthen your own faith, only endeavors to tear down someone else’s. You read the Bible and you interpret certain parts as being literal and other parts as being figurative. Well, Mormons do the same thing, but they just pick different parts to read literally or figuratively. Everything that Mormons believe can be found in the Bible, it’s just a question of what you want to focus on.
Besides, at least Romney (as he said in the clip) has a religion that he seems committed to and there are a lot worse options out there.
Anyway, I could go on for quite a while, but I won’t… please, just leave your bigotry at the door. Romney may have beliefs you find odd, but one thing all Mormons have in common, is a deeply rooted love for the Constitution and for this country. We could use a little bit more of that in our politicians.
Decoy256 on February 18, 2007 at 11:56 PM
No offense, but aren’t you at all embarrassed about this constant “woe is atheism” silliness.
We get it. There is no God. Okee-dokee.
Listening to you prattle on about it just …. so liberal, of you.
Help, help, I’m being oppressed.
Professor Blather on February 18, 2007 at 11:59 PM
For the record, my only concern about a Mormon President would be stemming the flow of strangely chaste white people showing up at my door wearing name tags and button-down shirts.
Professor Blather on February 19, 2007 at 12:00 AM
I’m sorry, but I have to step in on this one… that is a bold faced lie. Every Mormon knows what Mormonism teaches. Those guys in white shirts and ties that you see riding their bikes around town? They are out teaching people what Mormons believe, ask them any question you like and they will give you a straight answer. They may be a little shy about it since their used to getting ripped into by people blinded by bigotry, but if you are sincerely interested in finding out the truth, they will tell you.
Mormons are in no way ashamed of their faith, but all too often Mormons encounter wingnuts who want to attack rather than discuss, or argue instead of debate.
And seriously, stop with the blind bigotry.
Decoy256 on February 19, 2007 at 12:11 AM
>All Ya’ll who wouldn’t vote for Romney cuz he’s a Mormon, need to turn off your TVs and especially your computer monitors because they were invented by a Mormon.
I was at the BYU-Arizona football game at the beginning of this past season, and their were some drunken frat-boys (yes, the game was at Arizona) around us yelling out “Mormons go home!” and other equally unintelligent things. I had to laugh, since down on the field returned Mormon missionary and University of Arizona linebacker Spencer Larsen was making another of his team-leading tackles…
Doghouse on February 19, 2007 at 12:14 AM
Who cares if he’s a Mormon? Glenn Beck is a Mormon, I still listen to/watch his show. Betty Eadie is a Mormon, I still read her books. It’s not an issue. Where is he on the War Against Islamoterrorism? Where is he on the border? Will he let muslim terrorists force my wife and daughter to wear a burqa? Will terrorists nuke our cities? Will he allow sharia law into America? Will he let Mexico reclaim our Southwestern states? Will Spanish become our official language? *That’s* what matters. Anybody who bashes this man *in the name of Christ* is NOT a true Christian.
Tony737 on February 19, 2007 at 12:16 AM
>stemming the flow of strangely chaste white people showing up at my door wearing name tags and button-down shirts.
Oh, they’re going to keep showing up regardless of who is in the White House. :)
Doghouse on February 19, 2007 at 12:17 AM
Blather –”strangely chaste”? what’s wrong with a little chastity now and then. I’m a little sick of the strangely unchaste to be perfectly honest.
Doghouse — I think a lot of the who-ha over the Mormons and Christianity depends on where one draws the line of who is and who ain’t in the club. It is my understanding that the Mormons do not believe in a Triune God- that Jesus, though He is the Son of God, is subordinate to God the Father. This is a tenant of any tradition that has held to the name Christian. This has been a sticking point for many.
As for the guy who says “you don’t know the Lord.” I think this guy is just wrong to say it out loud. He doesn’t know Romney from Adam and therefore shouldn’t judge. I think Romney did handle the question well and I agree, if all other things are equal I would rather have someone with a faith than someone without.
DrM2B on February 19, 2007 at 12:18 AM
I went through an awful time a couple of years ago, and the only one of my colleagues who reached out was a devout Mormon. He came to my house, sat with me and offered encouragement. And no, he didn’t try to convert this Catholic.
mikeyboss on February 19, 2007 at 1:06 AM
I went to school with a girl that was a Mormon.
I discovered that fact after she came up to me in high school and apologized for making my life hell with her bullying. Her mother had gone after me too.(We both sang-and I rang rings around her vocally and her Mother didn’t like it)
She was moving back to Utah and wanted to get right with God.
My Jewish mother gave me a copy of the book of Mormon that she had read out of curiosity. I’ll read it sooner or later.
My husband keeps trying to get me to pitch it because he says that LDS isn’t true Christanity-it’s a cult.
That said, my husband’s front runner is…Mitt Romney.
Mine’s Rudy.
Go figure.
That said
annoyinglittletwerp on February 19, 2007 at 1:17 AM
My point in both comments, which may have been badly stated, was that I just don’t care about Romney’s religion. My knowledge of Mormonism is what two ex-Mormons have told me; I’m not claiming to be an expert. Based on what they’ve told me and some very cursory research, it seems very weird. I think Romney’s a bit of an idiot for being a Mormon, and Mormons would probably think I’m a bit of an idiot for being a reformed charismatic Christian, so it all balances out. (If you don’t believe that your faith is superior to other faiths, why believe it at all?)
If the job Romney was going for was to be my pastor or teach a bible study at my church, I’d have a lot to say about his doctrine. But where politicians are concerned, I care about what they DO and what they promise to do. If their policies and goals are in line with, or at least not in conflict with, my faith, then I don’t care if they get naked and do the hoochie coochie dance in their backyard and call it worship.
So my decision to vote or not vote for Romney has nothing to do with his faith, and I think that’s true for a whole lot of other evangelical and reformed Christians as well. A few people, like the heckler and the media, are making an issue of this, but Christians in general are not going to care.
As to whether the heckler ought to have said what he said; it was beyond rude. He’s entitled to his opinion, but there’s no need to be mean about it. See Ace’s post If You Don’t Believe In Christ, You’re Going To Hell.
Laura on February 19, 2007 at 1:18 AM
Is Allah a gay athiest?
Just asking.
Gregor on February 19, 2007 at 1:29 AM
I’ve never heard that and I’ve been Mormon my whole life. We accept the Biblical story icelander.
Free Constitution on February 19, 2007 at 1:48 AM
I don’t care what any of yall say about this particular episode.
I was there when the bill came up in Massachusetts a few years ago to extend the sales tax hike until the next time.
The people unanimously voted against it.
What did Mitt Romney say? This: I had no idea people didn’t want to pay taxes.
Catroast on February 19, 2007 at 1:49 AM
I despise those types of lists like the one posted above!
They are so “Flavor of the day” style lists and they omit so much.
There was no choice for any of the following:
Sikh
Buddhist
Jain
Hindu
Shinto
Ba’hai
PhD
Chinese
Japanese
Arab
Asian Indian
Multi-Lingual
Hearing Impaired (includes “deaf”)
Illegal Alien-Immigrant (AKA – foreign invader)
Abortionist
Pro-life
Taoist
Confusianist
Communist
Socialist
Fascist
Statist
Leftist
Straight-strong advocate for heterosexuality
Married, in love with his or her wife and children
IQ above 130
IQ belove 100
Likes having sex with the opposite sex
Loves Classical Music
Loves Salsa
Loves Afro-caribbean – Soka, Scooge, Zook music
Loves Jazz
Loves Emmy Rossum and Patrick Wilson singing “All I Ask of You.”
Loves the Mario Lanza’s singing
Loves chocolate
Loves his family, his wife and children
Loves Indian Food
Loves Italian Food
Loves Reading Michelle Malkin’s commentary and blog
Loves Reading Allahpundit’s comments on Hot Air
Loves reading William’s post comments on Hot Air
Gun Hai Fat Choi
Chin nin fai lohk
Peace, Happiness, Prosperity – Happy Chinese New Year
William
William2006 on February 19, 2007 at 1:52 AM
Looks like I missed a post of kookiness, so I’ll address that kookiness now.
1) The God we worship used to be a man like me.
First, it should be pointed out that this is not official Church doctrine, as you should know unless you got your information from a crazy anti-Mormon website. There is an idea, however, that since Jesus said he did only what he saw his Father do, that there was some type of existence outside our sphere of comprehension, and that God the Father is trying to take his children through a process that he knows by experience. We don’t know much about this, and it isn’t something that we base our theology/doctrine on, though malicious enemies of the Church seem to love to artificially place it at center stage.
2) Good Momons will become Gods (that’s right, with a capital “G”) after death.
No, not a capital “G” in the sense that we will be equal with God. It is dishonest of you to try to imply that.
And the eternal blessings of God are open to anyone who fulfills the requirements established by God for such blessings. That’s all people, from the time of Adam until the end of the world.
3) These Gods will have their own planets, have sex with their Goddesses, and make spirit babies.
Okay, you’re trying to make this into a tabloid thing by including “sex” and “goddesses” (in the plural). You’re making that up, or getting it from someone who made it up. It’s typical toothless trailer-trash anti-Mormon deceit. It’s rather crude and classless, friend.
And, yes, we do believe that if we are heirs to all that God has, then yes, we will emulate Him in our actions after this life as well.
4) These spirit beings will inhabit the souls of humans that are created in the flesh on a particular God’s planet.
Again, we would assume that if we are emulating God (to whom we will always be subordinate, of course), that we would love our children and want them to have the best of the blessings that we have received. Or maybe you don’t feel that way about your own children, if you have them? Or maybe you don’t believe that God actually loves us? We believe that God actually does love us, as that he wants us to have the best of what He has. Please forgive me for believing in that God is a perfect Father.
5) Momon Gods can have lots of Goddesses to have celestial sex with. No polygamy in this life but it’s something they look forward to in the next life.
Uh, again, you seem to have a fixation on sexual relations. You’re saying a lot about yourself by focusing abnormally on that.
Mormon doctrine does not teach that polygamy is a requirement of the next life, or of salvation. (The speculation of individuals and official doctrine are two different things.) Obviously, it’s something that God’s people have practiced at certain times (as you absolutely must know if you have read and believe the Old Testament), and that has been prohibited at other times, depending on the will of God. There are some splinter groups that believe that polygamy is a requirement, but they are unrelated to the Mormon Church, and if they were members, are excommunicated if they promote such beliefs and practices.
As for looking forward to it, I think you will have a horribly difficult time finding a Mormon man who hopes for a polygamous relationship in this or any other life.
6) Jesus and Lucifer (before he turned into Satan) were brothers; Jesus just came up with a better redemption plan in the counsel of the Gods.
Okay, I’ve already addressed the very unspectacular brother thing. We are in no way placing ourselves on the same level as Jesus by stating the fact that we are all God’s children, nor are we placing Jesus and Satan on the same level, and it is either ignorant or dishonest for you to imply that we do. As for the second part, no Jesus did not “come up with a better redemption plan.” We believe that Jesus accepted the plan of redemption that was created by God the Father, as well as his role as the Redeemer. (Jesus submitted himself to the Father in all things.) Satan became Satan because he rebelled against God’s plan.
>Many Mormons are unaware of their own theology
Well, having made a serious, careful, and constant study of my religion for many decades, I think I have a bit of awareness. And clearly, you have been too lazy or dishonest (I’m hoping for the former) to find legitimate, credible sources for your mis/dis-information about Mormon doctrine and theology.
The old “that’s not what you really believe” trick is juvenile and intellectually dishonest, as well as lazy. Writing a bunch of sensationalist nonsense makes you look rather foolish in the eyes of those who embrace common sense and reason and fact. Again, reject Mormon doctrine if you would like. You’re obviously free to do so. Just find out what we really believe before you reject it. I would suggest that you don’t rely on the Pharisees for your information about Jesus, if you know what I mean.
Doghouse on February 19, 2007 at 2:03 AM
Dissing the Mormons? Does anyone even know what the Mormons believe? As they say, read the rest, or STFU. Ignorance is no excuse these days.
The koran does say, convert to islam or die. I don’t think the Bible says that.
R D on February 19, 2007 at 2:05 AM
I do, we’ve already seen that in the oval office and I don’t care to see that repeated.
lan astaslem on February 19, 2007 at 2:08 AM
>I’ve never heard that and I’ve been Mormon my whole life.
The only people I’ve ever heard it from is anti-Mormons, hahaha! It’s quite telling that they’re so fixated on the bizarre, the spectacular, and the sordid…
I was told once in Japan that Mormons aren’t allowed to eat whale meat. That was a surprise to me, since I had eaten whale for dinner the night before. (It’s okay, but it kind of tastes like fishy beef.)
I was also told that everybody is naked at weddings in Mormon temples. I must really be missing something, because everyone has been very modestly clothed at the many temple weddings (including my own) that I have been to!
My father said that when he was a missionary, he actually had people ask to see his horns.
Doesn’t anybody think anymore?
Doghouse on February 19, 2007 at 2:12 AM
Sorry Doghouse, I was reading and writing as you posted. My inlaws are Mormons, and my wife is a “Jack Mormon”. If people were more informed, well, they wouldn’t be so ignorant.
R D on February 19, 2007 at 2:20 AM
“annoyinglittletwerp,”
I have heard that “cult” accusation hurled at anyone who believes in anything different from anyone else, especially if the person accused of being part of a cult follows something that is not a large, established religion, or is a sub-set of a religion, or that person following the “cult” is in the territory of the other person’s religion, such as a Mormon among Christians at a Christian revival, or a Buddhist in a similar situation, or an Evangelical Christian among some other denomination of Christians.
Frankly, a person’s belief and their personal salvation, and their relationship with the Lord it is between a person and God.
I wonder if anyone accused early Christians of belonging to a “cult,” using whatever word they used for “cult” back then. I wonder if people had a word for “cult” that they used back when Jesus the Christ was walking the earth and explained that Jesus the Christ was a “cult leader.”
The same holds for Gautama the Buddha, Guru Nanak, and others.
Bottom line, a person can put on a show for the rest of the world, but what is inside their heart, their True relationship with their Creator, Lord, or whatever way one describes the one who people worship, to whom they direct their devotion, is a personal experience, and is between a person and their Lord.
William
William2006 on February 19, 2007 at 2:22 AM
Isn’t that a profound statement? (sorry) Getting late, Goodnight.
R D on February 19, 2007 at 2:34 AM
I do, we’ve already seen that in the oval office and I don’t care to see that repeated.
lan astaslem on February 19, 2007 at 2:08 AM
LOL – but that had nothing to do with his religious beliefs. My question for religious conservatives who say that religion is the most important thing, is would you like another Carter or Bill Clinton? They’re Baptists, so that must make them okay, right? Christian conservatives tend to like Jefferson – but every Christian I know would soundly reject the Jefferson Bible, if they were aware of it. It’s all well and good to consider a politician’s religion as part of the big picture, but that’s not how people really decide to vote for.
Laura on February 19, 2007 at 2:38 AM
So… what does the LDS church teach?
This is what I and a few others are talking about.
Everybody is free to believe whatever he wants but these days there are all sorts of ways to check on things. I’d vote for Romney if he were on the ticket but we shouldn’t think he’s a Christian in any biblical sense. Christians worship the uncreated God.
Mojave Mark on February 19, 2007 at 2:44 AM
Mojave…
uh, the quote you referred to was about God once being a man… it think that Free Constitution was referring to the whole “came to earth with one of his wives to have a baby, Jesus” thing… which is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever heard… Mormons believe in the Bible, really they do.
No Mormon who has “been a member all his life” would not know about God once being a man, but as Doghouse mentions, it isn’t really a central theme. So, if you want to find out what Mormons really believe, ask one. Ask me… I have yet to meet a Christian that I could not convince that Mormons are Christians too. It’s not that hard. I’m not saying you will be converted to Mormonism, just that you will be open to the idea that Mormons are Christian. It really is quite silly that Mormons are so consistently excluded from the “club”.
Shoot me an e-mail: decoy256 at gmail dot com.
Decoy256 on February 19, 2007 at 3:05 AM
When I was District Executive for the Boy Scouts I had a lot of contact with Mormons. The LDS church requires (or at least used to) their kids to belong to cut scout packs and boy scout troops. My first experience with a Mormon was quite interesting. I was doing some fundraising and had to go to Brent Ensigns office. I had met him once and he was young (like me at the time) and he owned (along with his family) Ensign electronics. His office was small and nondescript. When he got off the phone I sat next to him and we had our “meeting.” It lasted much longer than I had anticipated. As I was leaving I had forgot my daytimer and went back in to retrieve it. Brent was on the phone again but cut the conversation short to say goodbye to me.
I found out later that those phone calls he was getting were from somewhere in Europe. Ensign electronics had a large shipment heading for China but the train that the equipment was on had “disappeared.” This was the same day as the Tiennaman Square incident. Anyway, I was so impressed that he was able to be so kind and generous with his time when he was going through such a crisis. He was a multimillionare but didn’t act like it. He had a modest 3 bedroom house in an average middle class neighborhood.
I know very little about the LDS church but from my 4 years in the Scouting profession my many contacts with them were all positive. In my limited view I found them to be about the most polite and humble group I’ve ever met.
Capitalist Infidel on February 19, 2007 at 3:10 AM
Mojave Mark: Your quotation from Bruce R. McConkie is not really a change from what I wrote. Even by saying that God is a “man” (rather than a woman, or some type of empty cosmic fuzziness floating everywhere and nowhere, or some such hippie talk), we aren’t saying that we know all the details of God’s godhood. Since we believe what Jesus said, and since the Bible says that Jesus said that he did nothing except for what he saw the Father do, logically, we must assume that the Father did something at least very similar to what Jesus did. It doesn’t take away from God’s perfection or glory to say that, somewhere, sometime, outside our sphere of understanding, maybe even outside our comprehension of time and space, He experienced what we experience.
>Christians worship the uncreated God.
Correction. Some Christians do. Others prefer to reject a hellenized version of deity for something that is not a floating cosmic contradiction that can never be known. That concept was a late addition to certain brands of Christianity (and has been rejected by many Christians as well). You’re going to have a hard time finding such an “uncreated God” in the Bible unless you take great liberties with the language.
Anyway, if you prefer a God that intends for you to dance around in the clouds singing hymns and playing harps for eternity, then go right ahead and attempt to worship such a being. I believe in a God that loves his children, and wants the best for them, that wants to give them everything that he has, that wants them to have the same eternal joy that he has. Why would I waste my time on a God that was anything less than that? Why would I worship a God that wasn’t perfect? A God who would wish anything less than the best on his children?
You should also be aware that it is very easy to sit down and show a multitude of reasons why Protestants and Catholics are not “Christian in any biblical sense.” Modern Protestantism and Catholicism are both very, very different from the Christianity of the first couple of centuries after Christ. But that doesn’t mean that I am such a bigot that I will claim that Protestants and Catholics are not Christians. I think they’re wrong on many things, but if they claim to follow and worship Christ, then I will allow them the label of “Christian.”
I know that such generosity and tolerance can be difficult, but that’s the Christian thing to do, isn’t it?
(I’m reminded of something a Catholic friend from West Belfast told me. He said that in Northern Ireland there are a lot of Protestants and a lot of Catholics, but not very many Christians. Just a thought.)
Doghouse on February 19, 2007 at 3:16 AM
I am a Christian and you are going to hell because you are not a Christian, you have not accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are not Saved, and you are damned to hell.
I am a Muslim and you are going to hell because you are not a Muslim.
I am a Buddhist and, well, just because you are not a Buddhist, that does not mean you are going to hell.
I am a Sikh, and, well, just because you are not a Sikh that does not mean you are going to hell.
I am a Ba’hai, and, just because you are not a Ba’hai that does not mean that you are going to hell.
I am a Taoist, and, just because you are not a Taoist that does not mean that you are going to hell.
My religion, my faith, my dedication is greater than yours! I am saved, you are not. I am going to heaven, you are going to hell!
My religion is more right than your religion is.
My God is bigger than your god!
I am an atheist and you people are all idiots for believing in fairy tales and superstitions. I am better and smarter than you!
William2006 on February 19, 2007 at 3:35 AM
William, put down the crackpipe and slowly walk away from the computer.
Capitalist Infidel on February 19, 2007 at 3:51 AM
“Capitalist Infidel,”
Very clever!
I wish I had thought of that and added it to the end of my previous post “William2006 on February 19, 2007 at 3:35 AM.”
It would go something like this: “People, this religious bickering is absurd. Put down the crackpipe and slowly walk away from the computer.”
William
William2006 on February 19, 2007 at 4:13 AM
What do Mormons REALLY believe??
Discover the AWFUL TRUTHhere!!
Even more INSIGHTS into their NEFARIOUS PSUEDO-RELIGION can be found HERE!!
. . . or you can keep relying on hearsay. Your choice.
ccwbass on February 19, 2007 at 4:55 AM
I feel for the 72 year old atheist lesbian candidates.
Free Constitution on February 19, 2007 at 5:22 AM
95% would vote for a Catholic.
And Bill Donahue and his offense-seeking hypersensitive paper blog still exist why? To nastygram that unyielding 5% into oblivion?
Also: shame that “Muslim” wasn’t on that list. Any guesses on where that would land? I’d guess the Muslim would be sandwiched between the homosexual and the 72-year old (your imaginations can thank me later).
…who is Hispanic and has three black Mormon ex-wives (they were all married simultaneously, of course… bonus points for athiest-on-Mormon elderly gay inter-racial polygamy).
Plus her name is Hillary Osama-Hussein Martinez and she likes things made in France. And she hates both cats and dogs. And NASCAR.
Any takers? Maybe we should start an exploratory committee.
Mark Jaquith on February 19, 2007 at 6:10 AM
Pseduo is an abused word.
Are you referring to Mormon – the Church of Latter Day Saints?
Pseudo Religion?
What is that?
Same as a “cult.”
Anything which someone from a different, already established religion who disagrees with it says it is.
William
William2006 on February 19, 2007 at 6:23 AM
The difference between the Mormons I know and the “Christians” slamming Mormons is that Mormons are more than fine with people believing in other faiths whereas some “Christians” would like to see the Mormon religion dissapear from the face of the earth.
I challenge ANYONE to find an LDS church sanctioned web site that disparages other religions. THEY DO NOT EXIST. Without even trying I can send you to link to HUNDREDS of “Christian” churches websites filled with vile accusations against Mormons.
Politicians are politicians and Mitt is no different. The best we can hope for is a candidate who will follow through with his promises. And I personally have no problem with a candidate who changes positions on issues as long as he/she explains their change. The LDS church is very conservative….almost fities-ish in it’s approach towards family values. Mitt will be pretty much in line with those values. Just like Reagan was.
csdeven on February 19, 2007 at 7:27 AM
I have a tremendous amount of respect for Mormons in general. Had two bike-riders come to our apartment many years ago, I said I was quite sure of my faith, but we had a discussion b/c I enjot talking about such things. They asked if they could come back, I said no I was moving the next morning, and I am never converting to another religion. They came at 7 in the morning and insisted they help us move. Nicest people I ever met, and since then I have found that most Mormons act more “Christian” than supposed Christians do. Along the same lines as a previous poster, Christianity sounds like science fiction to many people, too. Look how The Da Vinci Code ridiculed Christianity’s immacualte conception. Vote for the man (or woman) not their religion. Unless it’s the ROP, perhaps.
RW Wacko on February 19, 2007 at 8:07 AM
I agree the LDS church is very conservative. They’re known for being very friendly and clean living. Here’s a quote from Joseph Smith, the founder of LDS.
(Regarding Joseph Smith’s first vision where celestial personages appeared to him.) “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .”
Joseph Smith, “History of the Church”, Vol. 1, page 5-6.
icelandicfarmer on February 19, 2007 at 8:33 AM
Yeah, so what?
csdeven on February 19, 2007 at 8:43 AM
Mark, if they are “unaware” then they clearly don’t believe it. So then what’s the point.
Christian theology is (at it’s very core) that Christ died as a sacrifice and that those who believe and accept the sacrifice can join Him with God. Anyone who believes that is a Christian.
If you don’t believe that, even if you call yourself a Christian, then you’re clearly not. If Mormons believe that, then they too are Christians.
And if they don’t accept these extra beliefs you ascribe to them, then those extra beliefs do not matter.
You could say that true Christian theology includes a worship of snakes (in reference to the snake that was lifted up to heal people), but if most Christians do not believe this, then that really doesn’t matter. You cannot ascribe some ill opinion to someone that they do not personally hold.
Esthier on February 19, 2007 at 9:49 AM
First of all, if that were true, they wouldn’t be knocking on my door on a regular basis telling me why I’m wrong. They believe their way is better. Mind you, that’s their right, they are welcome to do it, but let’s not get all “Mormon’s are holier than thou” in this regard because by their very actions they do in fact criticize other faiths. Which is fine – as was pointed out in the Ace post I linked to, “I will say though that I think there’s an inherent amount of exclusionary rhetoric in all religions, and if you stop trying to be exclusionary, you’re really not providing much of an incentive for folks to come to your churches.” Same thing I meant when I wrote, “If you don’t believe your religion is superior, why believe it at all?” All of us believe we’re right and the other guy is wrong. It’s a core characteristic of religious faith, and IT IS NOT BIGOTRY.
Most non-Mormons get at least some of their information about Mormonism from ex-Mormons. I have. Now if you’re going to say that these people are collectively lying about what they were taught, I’m going to have to disagree. I’m perfectly willing to believe that you personally, in your church, have not been taught the same things, but I simply cannot buy into the fact that hundreds of former Mormons are just making crap up – and that it happens to be the same crap. I know a LOT of Catholics who have left the church – I’m one of them – and none of us just make crap up. When asked, we say we disagree with X, Y and Z. So my own experience and common sense tell me that’s not what’s going on here.
Laura on February 19, 2007 at 10:36 AM
As you sayeth, the Lord saideth…..
“Judge not, lest you be judged”
Great points. I doubt the “christians” who deride others would like that same level of scrutiny directed at their beliefs.
csdeven on February 19, 2007 at 10:39 AM
Thanks for this thread. Can someone post a neutral link on the mormon docrine concerning the origins of God? Having read both the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price, I detected no solid contradictions with the Bible. It is the stuff I see practicing mormons do with no Biblical rationale that concerns me, e.g, eternal marriage, temple garments, etc.
Valiant on February 19, 2007 at 10:47 AM
As a matter of fact, Christians are specifically instructed to assess the doctrine and behavior of those who are within the church. Judge not lest you be judged refers to those outside the church, who we are not supposed to judge. It is for this reason we can confidently assert that Fred Phelps, for example, is not a Christian no matter what he calls himself.
Laura on February 19, 2007 at 11:08 AM
The defense of the “baby Jesus” post is a straw man. The issue that is paramount is the nature of the God we worship. By saying that God was once a man like me you toss out the Judeo-Christian/biblical view of who God really is. Not a central theme? Of course it’s central, it’s about as central as you can get. The Christian view of God comes from verses like this one in Isaiah.
No gods before and no gods after, sounds pretty clear. By saying that God was once a man you’re saying that He’s a created being rather than the creator of all. Jesus said, from John 4:22-24:
The truth about who God is matters terribly. This thread, at least at the start, is about Romney being able to get the Christian vote and not just an arcane discussion of theology. Yes, I think Romney will get the Evangelical vote if he ends up on the ticket. He would represent a vast improvement over any of the democrats running.
Mojave Mark on February 19, 2007 at 12:13 PM
I am married to a Mormon though Lutheran myself, and can confirm that the 5 or so beliefs discussed above are all of my husband’s faith. Specifically, I recall not being able to sleep for 5 hours when hubby told me that the Holy Spirit has a body and had “spiritual sex” with Mary to create Jesus. What a shock.
But yes, I find that many Mormons do not know all their own religion. Joseph Smith added many, many new aspects and requirement to being a “good Mormon”. If you’re not a good Mormon, you don’t get to be in the highest and best level of heaven, and you won’t get to be a GOD and have little spirit children and start your own people world.
1. Remember, Mormons believe that Jews came to America and started civilization here and became the American Indians we know today.
2. Mormon men are “High Priests” and award themselves the Levitical Priesthood and Melchezidek Priesthood. Nevermind the fact that Jesus is called our High Priest with those same priesthoods. (See Hebrews in the New Testament)
3. Mormon men married to non-mormons must have their non-mormon wife sign a written agreement to be nice to their husband’s Mormon underwear, which they are required to wear all the time after ever entering a temple. (And I really get tired of being referred to as a non-mormon by everybody Mormon.)
4. The Book of Mormon does not mention Eternal Marriage, Baptism of the Dead, or Temple Ceremonies….that’s stuff Joseph Smith found/changed in the Bible. The Book of Mormon also has a couple of “sermons” that end with “And I say these things in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost” (or something like that)….even though this is hundreds of years before Jesus is around, and even Paul never ended his letter with a reference to the trinity. We do that nowadays in our sermons!
5. Joseph Smith added things to the Bible, called the Joseph Smith Translation, but even the Mormons are embarrassed about it and his add-ins a merely footnotes in their KJV bibles. (I would be embarrassed too if my prophet wrote in a prediction about himself, that prophet named after Joseph would come again.) But hey, they follow it anyway.
6. And just for William, Mormons believe in a pseudo-afterlife, where all the great prophets get to preach at you until Jesus returns. It’s your second chance to accept Jesus. :)
Would I let Romney’s religion influence my vote for him? Since it didn’t influence my marriage, I doubt it will now. Me, I’m politics before religion but Romney doesn’t have my vote right now.
mollo on February 19, 2007 at 12:31 PM
You’re right, they are not making crap up. However, they know how to put the truth in such a light that it looks evil.
How would the Catholics feel if I went around saying they believe in cannibalism because they think that they are literally eating Christ’s body? Transubstantiation is a core belief of Catholicism and I actually think it is a nice idea, if you only look at it in a spiritual sense. The second you put it in terms of cannibalism, you are twisting the truth to make it sound bad.
The same applies to “Mormons think they can become gods” rhetoric I always hear. You read Romans 8:17 and perhaps it doesn’t mean anything to you. Mormons read it and think it is proof that we are destined (if worthy) for godhood. To you it is blasphemy, but Christ didn’t think that equality with God was a bad thing (Philippians 2:5-6) and we are advised in that scripture to think likewise.
You read those verses and perhaps you interpret them differently. Mormons read them rather literally. So why is their literal interpretation wrong and your figurative interpretation right? And don’t say that the Mormon’s interpretation violates “core Christian beliefs”, because that is what is in question here. Are the beliefs that you think are core, really core? Are they core because you and most other Christian religions have agreed on them? That sounds like doctrine based on consensus, not on biblical teachings.
Now, Mojave brings in the Isaiah quote. OH NO! My faith withers away in light of this ONE VERSE saying that there is no other gods before or after! Alas! Or not… the fact of the matter is that there is only one God (capital “G”) and there was no other God (capital “G”) before him and none after him. We will always worship the ONE God (capital “G”) of the Bible.
Mormons believe that we learn “line upon line, precept upon precept” and even Jesus taught “milk before meat”. If you live in a predominantly pagan community with a pantheon of gods, all to be appeased and worshiped, do you teach your people that God was a man who had a God? NO WAY! It would just confuse them and send them off trying to find this other God. Milk before meat… Isaiah 43:10 is conveying the message of our sole reliance on the one true God of the Bible. Mormons do not and have never and will never pray to God’s God. Neither will you ever be required to pray to a Mormon when he/she becomes a god/goddess. The only God you and I and everyone else in this universe ever have to worry about is the one true God of the Bible.
Now, on the issue of polygamy (a practice that Mormons do NOT currently practice, but did at one time). Just like there are biblical prophets throughout the Old Testament, Mormons believe in a modern day prophet. At the time that polygamy was practiced, it was done by the command of the prophet at the time and by very few Mormons. It was never carte blanc to get married to whoever you want.
If you find that weird, I don’t blame you, but it was the command of God through the prophet, just like the command of God through the prophet to “kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman” in Numbers 31 (unless you think Moses acted without God’s approval in this act of mass infanticide). Or the command of God through the prophet to take slaves as in Leviticus 25:45-46. Or the command of God through the prophet to kill every living thing in Joshua 10:40.
Each one of those incidents was when the prophet was commanded to do something we would find repulsive. But he did it because God commanded it. It is easy to see the justification from this end, but what about the people Joshua lead who had to carry out the command? Did they question Joshua’s status as prophet of the Lord? How do you think the Canaanites felt about Joshua? He wasn’t their prophet, just some insane religious leader carrying out mass genocide, right?
And then you have the audacity to ridicule the Mormon prophet who (re)instated polygamy? Does polygamy debase the soul any more than murdering men, women and children? The point is that when God commands it, you do it. So the problem isn’t with polygamy, it is with the idea that Mormons have a prophet, because if you believed Mormons could have a prophet, then polygamy isn’t a big issue.
In the end, it comes down to opening your mind to the possibility of there being more to the Bible than what you see at first glance. At some point, I’d love to get into the philosophical basis for Mormonism over Mainstream Christianity.
Decoy256 on February 19, 2007 at 1:01 PM
My parents joined the mormon church for a couple of years when I was young because they met some nice mormon families and admired the apparent lifestyle.
My memories of mormonism include the 55 gallon drums of wheat, beans, water, and other stores we were instructed to collect in our garage in preparation for the end times and the funny underwear my parents had to wear – basically arm and knee length skivies. Also there was a mandatory tithe similar to wage garnishing.
My parents came to their senses after a couple of years and decided to leave the church. This created a great conflict and they were told that they couldn’t just leave but would have to stand at the church to be excommunicated. Only after we moved to another town did the harrassment and legal threats end.
So I’m not eager to see an administration with mormon influence, and historically presidents do surround themselves with their friends. My own experience has colored my view such that I would vote against a mormon candidate in all cases.
MRegine on February 19, 2007 at 1:19 PM
All I can say is show me the golden plates, wheat in ancient North America or horses (Nephi 12:7; 2 Nephi 15:28) or elephants and the DNA work up of any American Indian tribe that has Jews markers.
Basically Joseph Smith (He sort of reminds me of Hubbard…. ) invented Mormonism and elevated it into a cult of personality and the evolution of his book so full of changes a doctoral historian’s head would spin. Apparently Smith was kidding when he wrote, “the most correct of any book on earth.” Translated by putting a stone in a hat.
Just to clear one earlier post, yes the Mormons are taught that other Christian religions (The LDS Temple Ceremony)are in cahoots with Lucifer. Which is pretty funny considering the Masonic influence in Mormonism.
All that being said, Mormons as a whole are good people but I can understand someone wanting to challenge Romney. That is politely. There is never any excuse for public rudeness. Yes the white shirt kids are kind of annoying (especially if one has a modicum understanding of North American history) but I don’t recall any of them strapping bombs to themselves and committing mass murder lately. Unless they were dressed like indians (Mountains Meadows Massacre). But as far as I know there is no call for a LDS form of Dhimmitude.
Romney seems like a nice guy. I’d consider voting for him once I hear more about his stances. Is he interested in winning the war and closing our open borders?
Timber Wolf on February 19, 2007 at 1:33 PM
All I can say is show me the golden plates, wheat in old America, horses, elephants, barley or even one tribe of Indians with Jews DNA markers.
And yes the Mormons are taught dispariging this about Christians, see the Endowment Ceremony. Plus they do have some past blood on their hands (Mountain Meadows Massacre). Plus if anyone thinks they can translate anything by putting a stone in their hat, I’ve got a bridge in the Everglades I’d like to sell them.
That being said I don’t recall any Mormons strapping bombs to their children and calling for our Dhimmitude. Does anyone know if Romney is interested in winning the war and closing our open borders?
Timber Wolf on February 19, 2007 at 1:49 PM
Sorry, the first post disappeared. Mistake.
Timber Wolf on February 19, 2007 at 1:51 PM
According to that poll, a Black Jew has more of a chance than a woman. If Barack converts to Judeism, we’re doomed.
robblefarian on February 19, 2007 at 2:47 PM
You think he’d be worse than Hillary? I wasn’t aware they were all that different. If we *have* to have a socialist in the White House, he’s at least better looking than Hillary. And he’s less experienced in politics, so he can probably do less damage. With any luck, Gore will try again. I’ll get a case of popcorn from Sam’s and just kick back and enjoy the show.
Laura on February 19, 2007 at 3:22 PM
csdeven:
My quote from Joseph Smith was describing how he was told to start a new religion because all other were corrupt. How is that not disparaging other religions? The Mormons I have talked to say that LDS is the only true church on Earth. Again, how is that not disparaging other religions?
icelandicfarmer on February 19, 2007 at 3:35 PM
Does anybody notice what’s missing from our little debate here? We in Western culture can have a spirited debate (npi) without going to the default position found in other cultures. Other places on earth it works like this: we disagree therefore I have to kill you now. I’m so glad we can discuss things passionately but then go have a
beerherb tea together. That’s America baby.Long live Western culture!
Mojave Mark on February 19, 2007 at 3:51 PM
Did you know that not withstanding the LDS churches stance on the requirements to enter into the Celestial Kingdom, many Prophets have counciled the members that many who were not LDS in life will be found in the CK while many who profess their holiness here will be surprised that they did not make it?
Show me a christain that allows that a person from a different belief will find salvation in the arms of a loving God while never knowing christ in this life.
A person of the LDS faith can take offense to that just as you claim offense should be taken by christians at the churches claim to be THE true church.
So, now that we are equal in the offenses of each faith towards the other, which faith follows the command to judge not?
csdeven on February 19, 2007 at 4:11 PM
OH GREAT! Now I have to put my guns away!
csdeven on February 19, 2007 at 4:13 PM
Wow, deja vu. Here we go again on the Mormon/Christian thing?
Indeed, most Mormons are fine people, fairly conservative in their political and social views, and most would make excellent neighbors. But I don’t think the discussion is really about that, it is about whether or not the theology and doctrines practiced by the religion of Mormonism are compatable with the Bible that Christians believe is the written word of the living God.
Christians in general, their web sites included no doubt, believe that the Bible is what it claims to be, that God says what He means to say within its pages, and that He meant exactly what He said. Given that, and some other religion shows up with a “god” and a “jesus” for sale that are wholly and distinctly different than the God and the Jesus of the Bible, would it not stand to reason that the Bible believing Christian would feel the need to warn others of the discrepancy?
That’d be nice, except since it is the Jesus Christ of the Bible that willingly died in our place on the Cross and that it is those who believe, repent, and receive His sacrifice on their behalf who will be saved, don’t you think it is a pretty large stretch of your imagination to believe that the same holds true when the “jesus” in question is some other person than the Jesus spoken of in the Bible? There is ample evidence that proves that the theology surrounding the “jesus” of which Mormonism speaks is NOT compatable with the biblical description the Jesus Christ of which the Bible speaks.
If only it were that easy. Let’s say that someone came up to you and said, “Oh, Esthier, I know who you are, you are that Esthier who got a sex change operation last year. And I know your father very well also, he is the one who ran for president in the last election and lost“. And you say, “No, I’m sorry, you must have me and my father confused with someone else“. Now, do you REALLY think that this person “knows” YOU and YOUR FATHER?
This is by far the best message posted in this thread…
I am married to a Mormon though Lutheran myself, and can confirm that the 5 or so beliefs discussed above are all of my husband’s faith. Specifically, I recall not being able to sleep for 5 hours when hubby told me that the Holy Spirit has a body and had “spiritual sex” with Mary to create Jesus. What a shock.
But yes, I find that many Mormons do not know all their own religion. Joseph Smith added many, many new aspects and requirement to being a “good Mormon”. If you’re not a good Mormon, you don’t get to be in the highest and best level of heaven, and you won’t get to be a GOD and have little spirit children and start your own people world.
1. Remember, Mormons believe that Jews came to America and started civilization here and became the American Indians we know today.
2. Mormon men are “High Priests” and award themselves the Levitical Priesthood and Melchezidek Priesthood. Nevermind the fact that Jesus is called our High Priest with those same priesthoods. (See Hebrews in the New Testament)
3. Mormon men married to non-mormons must have their non-mormon wife sign a written agreement to be nice to their husband’s Mormon underwear, which they are required to wear all the time after ever entering a temple. (And I really get tired of being referred to as a non-mormon by everybody Mormon.)
4. The Book of Mormon does not mention Eternal Marriage, Baptism of the Dead, or Temple Ceremonies….that’s stuff Joseph Smith found/changed in the Bible. The Book of Mormon also has a couple of “sermons” that end with “And I say these things in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost” (or something like that)….even though this is hundreds of years before Jesus is around, and even Paul never ended his letter with a reference to the trinity. We do that nowadays in our sermons!
5. Joseph Smith added things to the Bible, called the Joseph Smith Translation, but even the Mormons are embarrassed about it and his add-ins a merely footnotes in their KJV bibles. (I would be embarrassed too if my prophet wrote in a prediction about himself, that prophet named after Joseph would come again.) But hey, they follow it anyway.
6. And just for William, Mormons believe in a pseudo-afterlife, where all the great prophets get to preach at you until Jesus returns. It’s your second chance to accept Jesus. :)
Would I let Romney’s religion influence my vote for him? Since it didn’t influence my marriage, I doubt it will now. Me, I’m politics before religion but Romney doesn’t have my vote right now.
mollo on February 19, 2007 at 12:31 PM
NRA4Freedom on February 19, 2007 at 4:16 PM
So let me get this straight. We should all live together in harmony regardless of our religious beliefs and we should accept each others beliefs as heartfelt and valid to that person and in so doing not be judgemental of them.
Except those Mormons they’re just wierd.
ronsfi on February 19, 2007 at 4:52 PM
csdeven:
I never said I was Christian, so how can I be offended? You dared anyone to find something, and I found it. That’s all.
icelandicfarmer on February 19, 2007 at 4:59 PM
NRA4Freedom,
The discussion is about WHO gets to define others as “Christian”. The LDS church does not spend any amount of spiritual energy bashing others faith. I cannot say that about many “Christian” churches.
Warn is one thing. Protesting outside an LDS church on Sunday, blocking driveways, and yelling lies about the church to the children of LDS families are entirely different actions. That is intimidation, rudeness, and arrogance. Every level of those tactics have been used against the LDS by “Christians”.
Sorry, but these “Christians” you are defending are hypocrites because they honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from Him.
csdeven on February 19, 2007 at 5:03 PM
I can go with
with no qualifications. I doubt no one’s sincerity. I’m not sure what “valid to that person” is supposed to mean. As for being judgmental, any person who genuinely believes in a faith by default believes that they are correct. That’s what believing is; you’ve made what you consider to be the best choice. There’s nothing at all wrong with that, and it’s not a bar to living in harmony with other people as long as we’re not forced to agree that all choices are equally correct when nobody truly believes that.
Laura on February 19, 2007 at 5:09 PM
The text you are referring to is a quote from God and not a point of contention used by the church to address those of other faiths. ALL churches believe their way is the ONLY way otherwise, why belive it? Have you ever read an anti-mormon website? If not, you should. After that you will understand the context of “disparage” as I used it.
BTW, it never crossed my mind that you were christian.
csdeven on February 19, 2007 at 5:18 PM
Wow, csdeven, I have to admit that is WAY more obnoxious than people coming to my house on a regular basis and politely telling me I’m wrong. BUT I took a minute to google for that and the only protest I could find like that was by that bastid Phelps and his demon spawn. So your scare quotes around the word “Christians” were completely appropriate. That is not normal Christian behavior in any sense of the word, everybody has repudiated him – just like the Romney critic was booed by the crowd.
You got anybody mainstream doing that? Because Phelps is not representative at all, any more than Warren Jeffs represents you.
Laura on February 19, 2007 at 5:30 PM
Well, just one Atheists perspective.
ronsfi on February 19, 2007 at 5:30 PM
I have two sisters, one is a Mormon the other left Mormonism and is now a Charismatic Evangelical. The majority of the items listed in Mollo’s post are the same things I heard from my sister. They do not believe the same as mainstream Christians and this is why it is an issue with evangelicals. But since most of us vote issues it won’t make a difference if it comes down to Romney as the Republican nominee. He will at least be a decent person which is something about which most people agree.
Rose on February 19, 2007 at 6:13 PM
Could the following happen to anyone viewing this forum?
The three people died and were met at the gates of Heaven by the gate keeper, and Saint Peter.
“Welcome. You have died. These are the gates of Heaven. What would you like to do?” asked the gate keeper.
“I want to enter Heaven,” said the first person.
“And what have you done on earth while you were alive that you think qualifies you to enter into Heaven?” asked the gate keeper.
“Well, I helped the homeless. I fathered three children who became doctors and researchers and helped cure many diseases all over the world. I gave 20% of my pay to the poor. I attended church every Sunday, and helped with Church activities often. I also built a school for homeless children.”
The gate keep and Saint Peter looked into their Book of Life for the person’s name and to see if their qualifications met the criteria to enter heaven.
“You did well. You may enter Heaven.”
The next person, a woman, came forward.
“And what would you like to do?” asked the gatekeeper.
“I would like to enter Heaven” said the lady.
“What qualifies you to enter Heaven?” asked the gatekeeper, while Saint Peter looked on.
“I taught children in school, raised seven children of our own, all of them contributing to society, gave all my money to charity, accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, volunteered for missionary service, and donated my bodily organs to help others in need. I also became a nun before I died.”
The gatekeeper and Saint Peter looked over the woman’s record and considered her time on earth.
“You may enter Heaven. Congratulations!” said the gatekeeper with a smile and a nod from Saint Peter.
The third man came forward.
“And what would you like to do?” asked the gatekeeper with Saint Peter listening attentively.
“I would like to enter Heaven” said the man.
“Well, let’s see here” said the gate keeper as he and Saint Peter looked through the book of records section of the Book of Life.
They looked and looked and looked and looked.
“We have not found anything in the Book of Records in the Book of Life which shows that you have accomplished or done anything while you were alive which could get you into Heaven. In fact we see that you are extremely wealthy and you had opportunities to help others but you seem to have done nothing. Can you tell us any thing you have done which could qualify you to get into Heaven?”
The man thought and thought.
“I gave 15 cents to a blind man once” responded the wealthy man.
Saint Peter and the Gate keeper were puzzled. The man had done something good in his life, but they were not certain that he was qualified to enter Heaven.
“Is there anything else you did during your live that was good, or that qualifies you to get into Heaven?” asked the Gate Keeper.
“I gave a nickel to an orphan child” said the rich man.
The Gate Keeper and Saint Peter were troubled for they did not like to send people away from Heaven but they were concerned that this man did not qualify to enter.
“Is there anything else?” asked the Gate Keeper.
“I did give a dime to a charity once” said the man.
“Is there anything else?” asked the gate keeper.
“No, that is all” replied the man.
The gate keeper and Saint Peter pondered the information. The man had given 15 cents to a blind man, 10 cents to an orphan, and 5 cents to a charity. He had done some good things, but, still, they were concerned that this did not meet the standard required to enter heaven.
“I don’t know” said Saint Peter, “he did some good deeds, but that does not see like enough to be admitted into heaven. What do you think we should do?” asked Saint Peter of the Gate Keeper.
“I know, Saint Peter. Give him his 30 cents back and tell him to go to hell!”
William2006 on February 19, 2007 at 7:33 PM
William 2006,
Since the God of the Bible makes it clear in His word that not only can’t you “hitchhike your way to Heaven, or get there by just being good”(that’s from a song), arguing over how much someone gave or what they ever did that was “good” or “good enough” is neither here nor there, especially if the goal is only “getting in to Heaven”. The Standard for Heaven is perfection, and we all fall so far short of that it isn’t even worth discussing. The only means by which God has accorded mankind to escape the ultimate damnation that we all truly deserve is the blood of Jesus Christ, biblically speaking of course. Other religions certainly offer up all sorts of ways by which man can make himself pleasing to God or worthy of salvation, those who refuse to believe what the Bible says about it are perfectly free to sign on to any one of those other religions and take their chances accordingly, if they car enough one way or the other.
If one intends to follow the Jesus Christ of which the Bible speaks, then traditionally they would be called a “christian”. If they follow some other “jesus” whose message, theology, and doctrines are incompatable with the Jesus Christ of the Bible, then how can you intend to also call them “christians”? How about “LDS Christians” or something like that?
As for “bashing others faith”, your point might actually be perfectly correct if all religious roads led to God(the God of the Bible to be specific), as many want to believe is the case. But since the Jesus Christ of the Bible clearly says that is not the case, your point then is what exactly?
NRA4Freedom on February 19, 2007 at 7:54 PM
Eh,
“NRA4Freedom,”
My post above in which I told about those three people trying to enter heaven is a joke!
It is meant as humor.
Do you understand that?
Need I say it?
Do you have to be reminded to “Lighten Up!”?
If so, then Lighten Up!
William
William2006 on February 19, 2007 at 8:32 PM
I always did love this kind of “logic”. Now, here is your challenge. Go to lds.org and find all that garbage you wrote in your post in the only thing that is canon and therefore binding upon me.. .in the LDS scriptures. Don’t be too shocked that you find the King James version of the Bible as part of those. An Award WINNING King James Version at that.
Don’t let the fact knock you on your butt.
Noelie on February 19, 2007 at 8:40 PM
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