you won’t find a bigger Rome-phile then me. We owe just about everything to her. From our marriage customs to our concepts of military prowness. She was a mess and a great woman all at the same time. I just have a problem with putting 21st century morals on non 21st century society.

Here…let me buy you a beer. I might need your services one day.

I’m not some liberal troll. I’m a history buff and a movie buff. I think Sparta was interesting, but it should not be used as a symbol of the superiority of West over East in today’s geopolitical struggle. They were freaks — and not in a good way. Now, Rome was a civilization. They were bad asses on the battlefield and left thier mark from Scotland to Iraq.

30 centuries of later, with the benefit of all the philosophy and religion and political evolution as a basis of judging the ‘injustice’ of Sparta might make sense to you, but not to me.

Yours is the ‘American Indians were Pan’ argument. No, they were a collection of stone age tribal societies full of all the same ‘injustice’ as the Spartans.

As you are a lawyer I seem to feel that you regret there aren’t any Helot ambulances to chase. Think of the settlement you could have gotten out of the treasury at Delphi. Boggles the mind.

P.S. Civ4 is for nerds, real warriors play Rome Total War. There you can see how the phlanx get cut up by Roman cohorts.

Oh, and the final volume was published in 1993, so no modern politics more recent than Gulf War I. Good stuff!

In the real world… perhaps you could show where we have a genetic memory of what The Right Thing is or just accept that part of building a civilization has been trying to figure that out. As noted before by others, going to the Spartans to learn about slavery is a bit redundant because there are many other examples you could learn from as well.

I wouldn’t want to be ruled by Spartans. I definitely want my nation’s military to try to be as tough and brave as they were.

Hey, I wasn’t complaining. I was just wondering if this cartoonish version of this story would be cleaned up to make it simply black vs. white, good v. evil, or whether they would show the Spartans as they were.

I wish I had a Helot society slaving away for me so I could enjoy my warrior life of luxury. Oh yea, I live in Southern California. That is what illegal aliens are for.

tommylotto on February 18, 2007 at 2:24 PM

California was practically built on the back of slaves, Indian, Mexican, Chinese, and the list goes on. Look at the Romans. Look at modern day Saudi Arabia.

I enjoy tales of the warrior spirit as much as the next guy, but does the movie show the injustice of the Spartan society towards the Helots?

Who the hell cares?

I enjoy tales of the warrior spirit as much as the next guy, but does the movie show the injustice of the Spartan society towards the Helots?

tommylotto on February 18, 2007 at 12:18 PM

Probably not. It’s their movie, and the writer(s) are paid to write a movie that tells the story they want to tell. Kind of like the media – you know pretty much what sort of slant you’re going to get from any media outlet, regardless whether it’s CNN, ABC et al, or FOX (which I trust more than the others, but I’m at a point where I increasingly see problems with their take on things – which occasionally borders on laughable – as well). FWIW, the continuing decline in newspaper circulation numbers says a lot, and gone are the days when much of America took Walter Cronkite’s word on things. But I’m not sure what the alternative will be down the road.

The Democrats need rework that into a slogan of thier own:

Al Queda: Leave and hand over your weapons!

Democrats: Come get them, we will gladly had them over.

Somebody work that up in Greek.

when the citizens of Sparta passed a non-binding resolution of no confidence in Leonidas in an effort to “slow bleed” his defense against the Persians.

I chuckled at this. But then I realized it’s not funny.

Once upon a time, the one thing any society could be counted on was to support its warriors.

That time is apparently gone.

Stephen Pressfield’s Gates of Fire. Read it.

Ugly on February 17, 2007 at 3:18 PM

It is one of the best books I have ever read. Words can’t describe how good it is.

And for the record, everything Pressfield writes is outstanding. His novel about Alcibiades was almost as good, and I’m just starting the one on Alexander the Great – and so far, it’s also outstanding.

But “Gates of Fire” is in a league of its own. Along with The Killer Angels (about Gettysburg), its some of the best historical fiction on the planet.

I wish I had a Helot society slaving away for me so I could enjoy my warrior life of luxury. Oh yea, I live in Southern California. That is what illegal aliens are for.

here we go…..close to 30 centuries later…injustice. Name ONE…just ONE society who didn’t do something to somebody?….21st Century PC horsepotatoes.

Duty, Honor, Justice

Better yet: New anti-war man Clint Eastwood..’Deserving has nothing to do with it’.