Video: Too hot for YouTube

posted at 8:02 pm on February 9, 2007 by Allahpundit

Big breaking news tonight as the AP rustles up a scoop that was stale when the Times wrote about it four months ago. Long story short, jihadis are posting stuff faster than YouTube can take it down. The one interesting bit:

Following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the United States accused the Arabic television network Al-Jazeera of giving a propaganda platform to al-Qaida for broadcasting videos in which bin Laden justified the attacks. The failure of American counterterrorism officials to now move against U.S. companies also displaying martyrdom videos shows a lack of fairness, said Ahmed Sheikh, Al-Jazeera’s editor in chief.

“It’s really hypocritical and unbelievable,” Sheikh said.

Someone sent me the link tonight to a clip by a guy named Nick Gisburne, an atheist in the UK who specializes in video critiques of Islam, Christianity, etc. He claims his account was deleted and all of his content summarily approved after the following exercise in quotation outraged the perpetually outraged set. As Gisburne points out, the only original content in the piece is the title; everything else is straight from the Koran (or rather, the Skeptic’s Annotated Quran).

Needless to say, this sounds familiar.

Someone re-posted the clip for him after YouTube yanked it. It gets tedious quickly and the text flashes by too fast, but it’s worth posting in solidarity, from one persona non grata to another. Beneath it you’ll find a video of Gisburne himself talking about having his account cancelled. It’s oddly compelling; the hurt is evident, which is silly in one sense and not at all in another.

Update: Here’s Gisburne’s website.


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Dude, you got back on long enough for your whiny retort, whats the prob? Inconveinent? sure but c’mon dude you can put your vids up anywhere…. The Internet’s a BIG place.

Not that I am excusing youtube BTW.

WastelandMan on February 9, 2007 at 8:15 PM

YT caved to PC intimidation. I think this is a great lesson for everyone to see not only how intolerant radicals are, but how cowardly YT continues to be. True though, there are other markets for views other than YT.

Anyone hear that immam on Hannity’s radio show today? Wow. You think he might have said something like “I just meant occupation and opression in a general sense.” Nope. He meant in Iraq and he was referring to the US AND trying to justify himself. The fact the Dems would have this guy speak is like the republicans inviting Goebbels to speak at theirs in WWII; it would have been unconscionable.

Hearing a so-called man of faith and peace filled with such lies, hatred and deception is very troubling.

fudgypup on February 9, 2007 at 8:32 PM

What’s interesting about this video is that it’s 9min:14sec long.

Each quote from the Koran is on the screen for about 2 minutes. All the quotes are about the violence that should be done to non muslims.

That’s 554 verses in the Koran.

VinceP1974 on February 9, 2007 at 8:34 PM

I’m reminded of “It’s in the Koran” which still exists on You Tube.

Pablo on February 9, 2007 at 8:36 PM

I checked out the Skeptics Annotated Bible site, and the citations he takes for violence in the Bible are so silly and so lacking in basic understanding of Christianity that I’d take his Koran quotations with a grain of salt.

That said, this double standard about criticism of Islam versus criticism of other religion needs to keep being exposed before it gets worse.

frankj on February 9, 2007 at 8:37 PM

Each quote from the Koran is on the screen for about 2 minutes

should be

Each quote from the Koran is on the screen for about 2 seconds

VinceP1974 on February 9, 2007 at 8:37 PM

I feel so sad for this guy! I’m really kind of worried about anyone who’d react so brokenly like this. Start a website, man.

Alex K on February 9, 2007 at 8:43 PM

Hey – if you play them both at the same time, the music from the first one drowns out the annoying whining of the second one. Allah – can you post a third one that flashes really bright images so we can’t see the whiner in the middle?

thedecider on February 9, 2007 at 8:58 PM

Not to be insensitive to the “Religion of Peace”, but am I the only one who saw a consitent theme in the preceding video? {Try blinking like Nancy Pelosi while watching, and enjoy the ride…}

“… painful doom..”, “…evil doom..”, “..Allah’s doom..”, “.. awful doom..”, “..awful doom of Hell..”, “..the doom of Fire…”, “..heavy doom..”, “..shameful doom”, “.. a lasting doom..”, …dreadful doom..”… hard doom..”, “..another god of doom…”, “..fearful doom..”, “… the taste of doom..”, and my favorite, “… the doom of doom.”

Pluahhheeessseeee…….. how about, “The Doom of Islamofacists…”

PinkyBigglesworth on February 9, 2007 at 9:12 PM

I’ve never bought this idea of a fiery hell.

If you believe in God and love him, then you must believe that he is worthy of respect.

Yes what sort of being would create man, refuse to directly prove his existence, allow the meaning of life to be so confusing and make a hell to torture unbelievers in for all eternity?

I’ll tell you what sort of being. A sadist.

I would not want to worship something that was so angry, so jealous, so insecure, so desperately needing to be worshiped and so violent.

I seriously doubt that God can exist – the idea is such an obviously flawed human construction, aimed at explaining stuff in terms they understand (the love, authority and protection of a father and his creation of us) and keeping people in line.

If some sort of God exists, then he isn’t the screwed up egotistical sadist shown in our holy books.

Yet I’m still scared of hell…which I guess is the point.

uptight on February 9, 2007 at 9:24 PM

uptight

C.S. Lewis is a good place to start for thoughtful atheists. The brilliant Lewis said he was dragged “screaming and kicking” into the kingdom of God. His book “Mere Christianity” is a must read. Also, Chuck Colson’s writings are great. He was another REALLY smart atheist who became a Christian after he had a chance to slow down in jail. (Go figure.) God is loving.

Mojave Mark on February 9, 2007 at 9:35 PM

Gaah!!

I went cross-eyed and almost had a seizure trying to speed-read those hateful Quran verses as they swiftly darted on & off the screen in perfect sinc with the tension-building Islamo beat!

Parley on February 9, 2007 at 10:25 PM

Honestly, it’s hard to get excited about censorship when the victim has been ridiculing people just like you as idiots and assclowns as a hobby.

It’s hard, but censorship is intolerable. Restore his account, YouTube.

John on February 9, 2007 at 10:38 PM

Looks like we’re all doomed.

bloggless on February 9, 2007 at 10:53 PM

I’m not getting the bit about the hot beverages.

bloggless on February 9, 2007 at 10:55 PM

Spare yourself the epileptic seizure by simply reading the Koran. Well, then you have to go on and read the hadith.

Just grab the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades and you have a good Cliff’s Notes version of it all.

The Truth About Mohammed, which I just finished, is excellent as well.

And, as much as I’d like him to, Robert Spencer did not pay me for this comment.

Just to be fair, I’m starting A War Like No Other by Victor Davis Hanson tonight.

Vinnie on February 9, 2007 at 11:19 PM

All that talk of “doomed” and then that imam at the democrat winter festival said the same thing in his prayers. And there they were, praying right along with the muslim who was praying against “those who god has doomed”. It would be funny if it wasn’t so important.

Guardian on February 9, 2007 at 11:23 PM

Why do muslims and muslim appeasers squeal like pigs when you simply repeat what the precious koran says?

SouthernGent on February 9, 2007 at 11:33 PM

SouthernGent on February 9, 2007 at 11:33 PM

Good question. It could be an underlying knowledge that the “Religion of Peace” ain’t so peaceful. That their religion is stuck in 7th century thinking.

thedecider on February 9, 2007 at 11:54 PM

I’ve never bought this idea of a fiery hell.

uptight on February 9, 2007 at 9:24 PM

In the Bible, hell is defined as eternal afterlife completely separate from God our creator. The opposite is eternal life fully in God’s presence as He intended from the beginning.

One of the great mysteries is that God grants us the ability to choose between eternal Hope with God or Despair without. And I can’t imagine anything worse than an eternal afterlife totally isolated from God’s Grace.

Muslims have a similar view of the afterlife.

The primary difference is that while Christians view salvation as a free gift that Christ grants us. Muslims view salvation as something they must work for by killing or converting infidels.

Thing that scares most people about all this is that neither Muslims nor Christians are afraid of death.

Lawrence on February 9, 2007 at 11:55 PM

Lawrence on February 9, 2007 at 11:55 PM

Excellent points. Thankfully, we’re not ready to strap on that bomb-belt just yet. But if we see a cafe full of bin laden’s… No, seriously, I think many Muslims either have no idea what the Koran actually says on the subject of “infidels”, or they are just willfully ignorant and dismissive.

thedecider on February 10, 2007 at 12:03 AM

I checked out the Skeptics Annotated Bible site, and the citations he takes for violence in the Bible are so silly and so lacking in basic understanding of Christianity that I’d take his Koran quotations with a grain of salt.

Yes, but does anyone seriously think that mocking our faith will result in Christian extremists cutting his head off, or stabbing him multiple times, then pinning a “You’re next” note (to intimidate whoever re-uploads his vids) to his chest with the last thrust?

The Monster on February 10, 2007 at 12:14 AM

I think you can file a lawsuit over hot bevrages

abinitioadinfinitum on February 10, 2007 at 1:08 AM

This is a good collection of Quranic verses and Hadith that support Jihad

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Jihad.Islam

VinceP1974 on February 10, 2007 at 1:16 AM

Beneath it you’ll find a video of Gisburne himself talking about having his account cancelled. It’s oddly compelling; the hurt is evident[]

First I watched his “broken-hearted” video. Th en I watched both his anti-Islam video and his anti-Christian video last.

At the end of it all, all I have to say is that I think You-Tube did this guy wrong.

Obviously, I think he was way wrong in his interpretations of the New Testament. But that don’t mean he deserved the “kick in the gut” that he got.

I think I’m aware of the difference between Government censorship, and a private company just deciding to do what it feels like with its own private computer servers.

Still, I think what happend to this guy was real crappy.

EFG on February 10, 2007 at 2:00 AM

I had several pro-American anti-Terrorist videos on my YouTube account for many months. The youngest one was 2 months old, the oldest about 6 months. I just discovered that YouTube has suspended my account and removed ALL my videos that had anything to do with anti-terrorism and anti-insurgent themes.

I checked my e-mail and I had about 6 of these e-mails… one for each anti-terrorist/anti-insurgent video:

YouTube | Broadcast Yourself™
Dear Member:
After being flagged by members of the YouTube community and reviewed by YouTube staff, the video below has been removed due to its inappropriate nature.

USMC Counter Ambush Insurgent Chase: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJGWWFbTMrI

This is the second video removal notice for your account—if you receive one more, your account will be permanently disabled and all of your previously uploaded videos will be taken down.

Please refer to our Terms of Use and the Community Guidelines for more information on what video material is not permitted on YouTube.

— The YouTube Team

They violated ALL of them in one fell swoop. Yet, all the “Islamic State of Iraq” propaganda videos are still there in all their glory. There’s some weird stuff going on at YouTube… very strange stuff indeed, and I wonder if anyone and everyone’s going to get hit or just a select few. My videos have been up for MONTHS, then all of a sudden none of the are up to YouTube’s high standards in ONE day.

Aw well. Screw YouTube. They’re definitely not the only game in town, but I hope someone some day gets the opportunity to drop that Terrorist Loving Insurgent Apologist YouTube to its friggin’ knees.

SilverStar830 on February 10, 2007 at 3:40 AM

Aren’t YouTube videos flagged by those who visit the YouTube site, seek them out, and select to flag them?

Of course!

Don’t you think that Muslims, leftists, and others are actively seeking out the video clips which are being deleted by YouTube?

Of course they are!

If everyone who got burned by YouTube and those who visit YouTube in order to censor others got together and flagged all the Islamic-Jihadi video clips, don’t you think that YouTube would have to remove THOSE clips?

Also, if one or two guys can start YouTube in their garage, isn’t there at least twenty bright conservatives-anti-Jihadis who can start their own “OurTube” site so that those who wish to can post anti-Jihadi, pro-conservative, pro-good or righteous people and wonderful content till the cows came home?

Of course that can be done!

William

William2006 on February 10, 2007 at 4:19 AM

I don’t mean to insult anyone. Jews and Christians are some of the nicest people I know and Judeo/Christian society is responsible for the invention of everything that makes life great in the west (from The Velvet Underground to Penicillin).

It’s just, we’re told that God is good but we are also told that hell is real and horrible. Those two statements don’t square with each other (unless hell isn’t really that bad).

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 7:10 AM

First of all, some attorney look at the YouBoob TOS and determine if it can be termed a contract. If so, sue the bastards.

Second, how many of this guy’s anti-Christian vids have been bumped? Knowing that would be instructive.

HerrMorgenholz on February 10, 2007 at 8:12 AM

Aren’t YouTube videos flagged by those who visit the YouTube site, seek them out, and select to flag them?

Of course!

William2006 on February 10, 2007 at 4:19 AM

Exactly. Point is that YouTube if banning videos based not so much on actual content, but on the number of complaints they get.

Pro-Islamists are simply spamming YouTube with complaints. Maybe we need to do the same?

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 9:25 AM

YouTubers should try and retaliate by “flagging” Islamofascist videos and accounts.

If YouTube complies consistently and removes all the Islamofascist content and accounts then there’s nothing more that can be said.

If the Islamofascist videos persist, then YouTube can be said at best to be apathetic to the enemy, at worst a collaborator.

As for the atheist’s video that was removed, all he did was list quotes from the Koran.

If his account name was Mahmood789 and the background music was a nasheed like ‘Qom’ would the video have been deemed “inappropriate?” :o

Ronin11208 on February 10, 2007 at 9:39 AM

It’s just, we’re told that God is good but we are also told that hell is real and horrible. Those two statements don’t square with each other (unless hell isn’t really that bad).

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 7:10 AM

In the Bible, hell is defined as eternal afterlife completely separate from God our creator. The opposite is eternal life fully in God’s presence as He intended from the beginning.

One of the great mysteries is that God grants us the ability to choose between eternal Hope with God or Despair without. And I can’t imagine anything worse than an eternal afterlife totally isolated from God’s Grace.

The Goodness of God is reflected in Salvation as a free gift through Christ’s Grace, regardless of how bad or good we may think we are. The Goodness is also reflected in God grating us the ability to choose to reject this gift if we want to… so, my question is, why would anyone want to reject this free gift?

The point here is that there are only two types of religions in the world. Religions of Law and Religion of Grace. And the only world religion based solely on Grace of God for salvation is Christianity. And the obvious measuring stick to know which side one is on is whether or not one feels Hope for the afterlife, or fear and despair.

If one is feeling fear or despair about the afterlife, I recommend rethinking ones position on whether or not they are ready to embrace Christ’s Graceful Gift of eternal afterlife with God.

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 9:57 AM

If his account name was Mahmood789 and the background music was a nasheed like ‘Qom’ would the video have been deemed “inappropriate?” :o

Ronin11208 on February 10, 2007 at 9:39 AM

No.

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 9:59 AM

Lawrence, you say that hell is defined as an “eternal afterlife completely separate from God”, but on Planet Earth there doesn’t seem to have been any tangible presence of God since the burning bush.

I believed when I was a child, but I discovered that it was my own voice reassuring me during my prayers. When I stopped believing, nothing changed except my actions weren’t tempered by a fear of the afterlife. That’s not to say I became completely amoral. I still believe in causality – my actions are now tempered by what I believe will happen to me in this life.

You also say that God grants us “eternal Hope”. That implies an eternity with no “satisfaction”. The hope goes on forever and is never fulfilled. Eternal hope sounds like eternal blind optimism. Granted, that’s better than the (possibly more informed) “despair”, but neither is much of a promise.

You ask why anyone would reject the free gift of salvation – but without any sort of proof, I might as well believe in the Easter Bunny. What harm can believing in God or the Easter Bunny do? Well I just don’t want to believe out of fear.

It’s nice to know that the hell of Christianity isn’t the pain and torture shouted about in the Koran. You beliefs make A LOT MORE SENSE knowing that it is just the difference between being with a creator and living apart.

I’m still not sold though – however, if God really is a great thing, he’ll see I’m not a bad person and he’ll forgive me anyway.

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 10:54 AM

William said

Also, if one or two guys can start YouTube in their garage, isn’t there at least twenty bright conservatives-anti-Jihadis who can start their own “OurTube” site so that those who wish to can post anti-Jihadi, pro-conservative, pro-good or righteous people and wonderful content till the cows came home?

That’s a brilliant idea – perhaps the HotAir and the Pajamas Media people can get together on that.

Michelle?

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 11:11 AM

Lawrence, you say that hell is defined as an “eternal afterlife completely separate from God”, but on Planet Earth there doesn’t seem to have been any tangible presence of God since the burning bush.

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 10:54 AM

I understand. But this is not what the Bible says. God is pretty much evident to me. But I can’t force anyone to see things from my perspective, I can only explain my perspective.

I’m still not sold though – however, if God really is a great thing, he’ll see I’m not a bad person and he’ll forgive me anyway.

I understand your position. I’m just pointing out that this is not the Christian position.

Whatever middle ground you are trying to find with your arguments regarding God, Christ affirmed the Old Testament Prophets message that no person can make it to heaven on their own merits. Because of this, Christ affirmed that He would make the sacrifice that merits our way to heaven. But Christ says we must also be willing to believe Him. Basically, in Christianity, no belief = no faith = no salvation. Period.

The point is that Jesus Christ is the proof. The key to understanding the Bible is to first know that the entire New Testament of the Bible is focused solely on identifying Jesus as the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.

Goodness does not precede faith; faith precedes true goodness. How good or bad one is doesn’t matter, faithfully repenting of our badness does. In Christianity, either one believes faithfully, or one does not. There is no middle ground with Christ.

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 11:31 AM

YouTube = Bought by Google
Google = psycho-liberal internet megapresence (they’re recording everything you do…)
Nope, doesn’t surprise me one bit.

Catroast on February 10, 2007 at 12:07 PM

Just in case this string moves from talking about a video yanked from YT to an argument about whether the Bible is to be believed, Lawrence isn’t alone-everything he wrote is basic to a belief in Christ. Good job, brother-any who do a side by side comparison between the Bible and the Koran, Christianity and Islam, find out that there is no comparison-Islam is so full of holes and contradictions that it is basically a joke. But no one is laughing.

Doug on February 10, 2007 at 12:11 PM

…My offer still stands to be “network monkey” to help design and build “OurTube” (thanks William2006 I liked that.) Lemme Know folks :) I’ll help out for free!

WastelandMan on February 10, 2007 at 12:33 PM

but without any sort of proof, I might as well believe in the Easter Bunny.

If you only accept that something is real because you have proof, do you disregard the theory of E=MC2, for example, as there is no ‘proof’ that it is impossible move faster then light or that you can convert all mass into energy? Do you disregard the theory of evolution of the species since science has never be able to produce a new and separate species?

How do you prove that you are not in an alternate reality while you dream, as some believe? How do you prove that your soul exists, as some believe? How do you prove that time in linear, as some most believe? How do you prove most of the accepted theories and postulates in math are true, as some believe? How do you, for that matter, prove that you are actually awake and that you’re not dreaming at this very moment?

I’m not saying that any of the above examples are true or not. I’m just pointing out that the world is full of unproven theories and beliefs that are accepted by many even though there is no proof. If you need proof of something before you believe that it is true, then you’ll spend the rest of your life looking for proof of just about everything you see and experience. That’s where faith comes in, the belief that something is true without actually needing to prove it correct.

RedinBlueCounty on February 10, 2007 at 12:36 PM

“Good job, brother-any who do a side by side comparison between the Bible and the Koran, Christianity and Islam,”

Doug on February 10, 2007 at 12:11 PM

One of our problems here in America is comapring wrong understandings of Christianity with wrong understaindings of Islam. There is no way we can reach any kind of realisting decision or solution when using bogus facts. This is often referred to “Category Error”.

Uptight makes a solid argument for why he/she has a problem with the definition of hell. I can’t specifically debate the given argument, but I can illustrate the problems with the fact the argument is based on.

Same thing with this YouTube nonsense. YouTube is trying to do the right thing, but their not getting the right thing done because their basing their decisions on the wrong reasons.

The people at YouTube are either ignorantly out of touch, our just stupid, or really do favor the terrorist over the victims. Personally I think the people at YouTube are just ignorant about what is really going on.

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 12:47 PM

Please forgive my bad spelling, again…

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 12:49 PM

Are we really surprised at the cowardly reaction of YouTube to Islamofascist and/or PC Leftard pressure?

Most of the West’s MSM reaction to the Danish cartoon controversy shows the template of how media powers (including YouTube in that description) react to intimidation from these groups.

It’s OK for the vilest bashing of conservatives, Republicans, Bush and Blair, Jews, Christians, servicemen and women, etc. Just don’t make videos that simply, accurately quote from the Koran. That’s “inappropriate”.

DavePa on February 10, 2007 at 12:56 PM

It’s nice to know that the hell of Christianity isn’t the pain and torture shouted about in the Koran. You beliefs make A LOT MORE SENSE knowing that it is just the difference between being with a creator and living apart.

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 10:54 AM

This isn’t exactly what I meant to convey. What I said was, “I can’t imagine anything worse than an eternal afterlife totally isolated from God’s Grace.” Being without God is most definitely be a terrible thing. Something that we really should be concerned about, if not terrified.

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 1:04 PM

It’s OK for the vilest bashing of conservatives, Republicans, Bush and Blair, Jews, Christians, servicemen and women, etc. Just don’t make videos that simply, accurately quote from the Koran. That’s “inappropriate”.

DavePa on February 10, 2007 at 12:56 PM

Exactly. False representations of the positions of these groups is what excuses fuels the opposition’s arguments.

It doesn’t matter that the opposition arguments are based on a lie, as long as they can convince people to accept those arguments.

The worst thing we can do to our adversaries is make sure the true facts are not completely lost from the public debate.

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 1:10 PM

Lawrence – I’ve been living without God for 35 years. It’s not that bad :)

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 4:32 PM

Although God is love there is the matter that God is righteous as well. From the Christian perspective there is also a “gehenna” or lake of fire. It was prepared for Satan and his followers and not for mankind.

The problem was that mankind became infected with Satan when Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil – basically the Treel of Death. God is love and wishes none to perish. God is also righteous and cannot come in contact with sin. Those who, by faith, not by works, accept the free gift of eternal life have their sins removed and put on Christ at the cross which occurred about 2000 years ago.

Without Christ you take your chance that you never sinned. What is sin ?? – doing something you know you shouldn’t do.

Although God will judge I seriously doubt Mohammed will pass the test. He was influenced at young age by some Knostic Christians in Arabia. He probably got the idea of one god from them.

Texas Mike on February 10, 2007 at 4:35 PM

Good point RedinBlueCounty. It’s not just about tangible “proof”. There’s other factors too – logic, science and nature are also important points.

Muslims, for instance, tell you that Mohammed went from Mecca to Jerusalem in one night…on a horse…and that the horse then flew him off to heaven.

To believe that claptrap you have to suspend everything you know about science and nature. You have to suspend your normal logical thought patterns and be prepared to accept such lunacy without proof. But billions of people do.

Billions more believe equally wacko miracles in every religion.

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 4:42 PM

Mike – if God doesn’t want us to perish, why did he make us so perishable?!

I can understand him creating us so that we can worship him.

I can understand that Planet Earth is a test bed to see which of us run down the maze that leads to him.

I can’t understand condemning the rest to a Dante inferno hell thing – that just seems churlish.

Actually it seems evil – like setting fire to ones ant farm.

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 4:50 PM

BTW I apologise if this this is coming across as harsh. I have a lot of respect and admiration for Christians and Jews (two religious groups whose people have brought so much good to this planet). There’s just a few philosophical points I can’t agree with. Again, sorry if I offend anyone.

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 5:00 PM

Hi Uptight,
Great question. I love those kind of qustionss. Please forgive me for such a long answer on this forum. On the surface it doesn’t seem fair that God would condemn a big chunk of humanity like someone shaking their any farm.

You should take a look at the book of Romans in which Paul lays out very clearly the answer to some of your questions. In Romans 3:4 it said God is first judged before He judges anyone. So, you get to judge God first!! How cool is that? You will be able to ask all those question such as what about the little child in Africa who died and never heard the gospel? The end result is that your questions will be satisfied and you will admit God is fair and I have no complaint. Romans 3:23 says

all have sinned

and Romans 6:23 says

the wages of sin is death.

So, your paycheck for sinning is death. However, the rest of that verse say

the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

. So, do you want your wages or a free gift? There is no need to run through a maze or do anything to please God other than accept the free gift that is offered through Christ. Our good works or deeds? God says those are like filthy rags.

I think if anyone sincerely really reaches out to communicate to God He will honor that. Watchman Nee, a Chinese Christian and author imprisoned for about 15 years by the Red Chinese until his death, wrote of sharing Christ with a certain man in outer China. The man said when he was a young boy his mother would take him up the mountain to worship the idols in a temple. The man said he snuck outside of the temple and looking up in the sky said,

God, I believe you are too big and too high to be confined to that dirty, smelly temple. I would like to know you.

When he told Watchman Nee that story, he said,

Today I have learned from you the name of the God I met up on that mountain many years ago.

So, I just tell people to be honest with God and God will be honest with you. Trying to impress God with one’s good deeds falls way short.

Texas Mike on February 10, 2007 at 8:37 PM

Thanks Mike.

I don’t think I’ll ever understand the logic though. For instance, I don’t see why God would bother with all this.

A Christian friend said that it is so that the love he received is a result of free will…but I’m not sure. Firstly that sounds like a human frailty. Secondly, if you sincerely think about life it is very difficult to be a Christian. You have obstacles like the immaculate conception to come to terms with.

It seems like a contradiction. God creates the Planet Earth Test Bed, to allow his human creations the chance to become believers from sincere choice. Yet one can only achieve this by suspending the logic that God gave you. What sort of person does God actually want?????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Also, even if one does decide to believe in God, who does one pick – Judaism, Catholicism, Anglicanism, Mormonism, some new age treehugger version of Christianity? I can’t believe that all roads lead to Rome and that all you have to do is believe in God. What if I dedicate my life to being a Methodist and then find out that it was the 7th Day Adventists that were the only ones allowed into heaven…

Oh well – I’m hoping, as I say, that if God exists he’ll see I’m not a bad geezer and let me in. If he doesn’t exist, then no problem. If he does exist and sends me to hell…then I’m not sure I’d want to associate myself with him anyway. I only believe in the first two post death scenarios.

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 9:12 PM

Lawrence – I’ve been living without God for 35 years. It’s not that bad :)

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 4:32 PM

It’s not the last 35 years you need to worry about. It’s what you choose between now and when you die that counts.

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 9:22 PM

Mike – if God doesn’t want us to perish, why did he make us so perishable?!

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 4:50 PM

That’s just it. God doesn’t make us perishable. We were always inteded for a higher purpose. The fact that our less-than-perfect physical bodies perish does not mean that our souls perish. Point is that Christ didn’t say He would save our skins, He only offers to save our souls.

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 9:26 PM

Oh well – I’m hoping, as I say, that if God exists he’ll see I’m not a bad geezer and let me in.

uptight on February 10, 2007 at 9:12 PM

The problem with this statement is that you are trying to dictate to God how God should save you. If God won’t work they way you want, then you tell God to go scratch.

Here’s the thing… given any world religion, which one worships a god that is subservient to its worshipers? None.

Here’s the problem… when we dictate to God, we place faith in ourselves above God. This is what Satan did when he challenged God and was thrown out of God’s presence. The place God created for Satan, the place that is separated from God’s presence, is what we call hell.

Lawrence on February 10, 2007 at 9:44 PM

Hi Uptight,
It sounds like you have sincere questions which I appreciate. It also sounds like you are asking, what is the purpose of mankind? Forgive my long post on this forum, but I do want to try to answer the question.

I realized in my teens (I’m 57 now) from dabbling in the metaphysical there was an unseen world around us just like radio frequency waves are transmitting all sorts of information and communication. If you have broken radio you can’t tune it, but that doesn’t mean radio waves do not exist. I searched in many different religions and isms to try to find the answers to my main problem which was myself.

In college I decided to read a chapter of the New Testament every day just so I could argue intellectually against it. What happened instead was that after many months as I read the Bible my pathetic and pitiful situation was exposed. I put God to the test and said if Christ and this Bible stuff was real then I wanted to see a change in myself – I would try it for a semester. Otherwise I would go back to rip roaring sin. I had previously prayed to receive Christ. A change occurred that semester in my being and that was over 30 years ago, and I’m more convinced today than back then.

Its important to see that we are created with three parts – a human body, a mind and a human spirit. The greek work for body is bios (we we get the word biology), for the mind psychue (psychology), and the spirit is zoe. The human spirit sets us apart from animals. You don’t see the great apes having a religious ceremony simply because they don’t have a spirit. Augustine said in man is a God shaped vacuum (the spirit) which only God can fill. Because man has a spirit man desires to contact God. That is why there are so many relgions in the world – even in the darkest jungle there is some kind of worship going on.

When Adam ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he was contaminated by Satan and his human spirit was deadened. Man received from Satan, not from God, the desire to know the difference between good and evil. Most religions today are still eating from that same tree debating what is good and evil, right and wrong.

God’s intention was for man to have life from the Tree of Life – not to know right and wrong. If you are in the light you can see where to walk. If you are in darkness then you need someone to tell you what is the right way or wrong way.

Since man has a sin problem he expresses sin, Satan and death. Sin is a hereditary disease which is passed down from the man to his offspring. The woman does not pass her sin down – it comes from her deadbeat or saintly husband.

What was God’s solution for the sin problem, according to the Bible, was for God to put on human flesh – incarnation as a man named Jesus. Jesus means Jehovah savior. Since Mary was a virgin Jesus did not have a human father and thus no passed down sin. He was like Adam who was created sinless. He was also tested and tempted like Adam by Satan, but Jesus passed every test. In first Corinthians 15:45 He is called the last Adam.

You asked what kind of person does God want??? God simply wants Christ. God said, “this is my beloved Son, in whom I’m well pleased – Matthew 3:17.” Since Jesus did not sin he could therefore pay the the wages of mankinds sins which was done at the cross. When the soldier pierce his side out came blood (for our sins) and water (for regeneration). Now, man can once again have access to the Tree of Life which was barred to man. God doesn’t need anyone to do anything for Him – Christ has accomplished everything. What pleases God is to receive His Son.

When we receive Jesus as the Spirit in our human spirit our spirit become alive (regenerated). We also become a son of God and begin a transformation process to become the same as He. We actually become his duplication – not in the Godhead but as God’s children. Jesus is also called the firstborn of many sons. Man can now receive God in his human spirit in order to have fellowship with God and as the many sons is the body of Christ. This body is also the church, which is the many regenerated believers contituted with Christ and growing in Christ to become the bride of Christ. What does Christ want – He wants his bride and that is why He is returning. Is the church ready? No, but that is another story.

Texas Mike on February 10, 2007 at 11:24 PM

I didn’t mean to kill the thread. However, the contrast between the Koran and the Bible is like the difference between the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Jesus said to love your enemies and do good to those who do evil to you. Mohammed says something much different.

How about Jesus saying if someone strikes you on one cheek then turn the other also? I think the Jihadist say if the head does not cut off on one side try the other side also.

No wonder Christianity is not allowed in Saudi Arabia.

Texas Mike on February 11, 2007 at 12:24 AM

Here’s the problem… when we dictate to God, we place faith in ourselves above God.

Some times that God feller isn’t paying attention and needs a good talking to.

MSimon on February 11, 2007 at 10:52 AM

I’m starting to think maybe there is a God.

I went to a football match in London today, and on the way into the stadium, I saw a film crew in the distance.

I paid it no attention, but when I reached them I found myself standing face-to-face with Michael Moore.

I won’t say what I called him, but it begins with “F” and ending in “R”.

Also, my team won the match…so quite a good day :)

uptight on February 11, 2007 at 4:44 PM

Thanks Mike. I promise I will look into this further and speak to me Christian friends.

Was Jesus without sin? I though he complained to God for “forsaking him”. Not that this seems particularly sinful. Just a human reaction, I guess.

uptight on February 11, 2007 at 4:46 PM

Also – isn’t sin part of Gods creation?

uptight on February 11, 2007 at 4:47 PM

Hi Uptight,
Again, great questions.
If Jesus had sinned he would have had to pay for His own sin. No one could find fault with Jesus. Even the Roman governor Pilate found Jesus innoncent, but he caved in to the mob and allowed Jesus to be crucified. Pilate was unrightous and the falsely accusing Jewish leaders were untrighteous. However, it wasn’t the Jews’ or the Romans’ fault Jesus was crucified – it was the plan of God to take care of mankind’s sins.

You may ask, if Jesus is considered God how could God allow God to be crucified? This is where the aspect of God is three comes in.

God in His essence is one. In God’s economy (Ephesians 1:10 – also called dispensation -the Greek word is oikonomiameaning arrangment or administration)God is three – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit – all three are distinct but not separate. At the baptism of Jesus at the start of His ministry you see the economical aspect with the Father speaking and the Spirit decending as a dove. At the crucifixion at the cross the Father did not speak but instead turned away as the sins of mankind were poured upon Jesus and Jesus was made sin on our behalf- see 2 Corinthians 5:21) Jesus crying out My God, My God why have you forsaken Me is a fulfillment of Psalms 22:1 which describes His crudifixion in detail. He could endure the abuse of the Roman soldiers,the Jewish priests and the people mocking at the foot of the cross, but when the Father’s presence left it was agonizing. To bear the total sins of mankind, nailed to a cross and without God’s presence is more than we can imagine.

So, in God’s essential aspect God is one while in His economical aspect God is three – this is mysterious.

Sin was not part of God’s creation. The earth was a wonderful place when first created (Isaiah 45:18) and the angels – called sons of God – sang for joy (Job 38:7)when its foundatins were laid. When Satan rebelled perhaps millions of years ago he was cast to the earth (Isaiah 14:12)and the earth became a waste and desolate place (Genesis 1:2) In the first two chapters of the Bible man has no sin and the last two chapters in the last book –
Revelation there is no longer any sin – it has been completely dealt with. In between those chapters are all the dealings and problems with sin.

To become a Christian is not by joining some organization – it is simply to receive the free gift of life in Christ Jesus. A “good talking to” as MSimon said would do it. God will surely pay attention. What happens is that you will notice an inward change – finally, peace comes in.

Our believing therefore is simply receiving (John 1:10). Although many use the name Jesus Christ in a slang way the Bible says no one can say “Lord Jesus” except by the Holy Spirit.(Ist Corinthians 12:3) That term implies the man Jesus became the Lord of All. You will only hear Christians say Lord Jesus.

One day every knee will bow and every tongue confess – even Mohammed, Confucious, Buddha – you name them – that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. (Philippians 2:10) Thanks for the great question Uptight.

Texas Mike on February 11, 2007 at 10:59 PM

I’ve never bought this idea of a fiery hell.

uptight on February 9, 2007 at 9:24 PM

Actually, uptight, there are devout Christians who would agree with you. Lots of ‘em, actually.

I’m reminded of “It’s in the Koran” which still exists on You Tube.

Pablo on February 9, 2007 at 8:36 PM

Shhhh! I keep a low profile at YouTube so that video in particular won’t get banned! ;-) It’s pretty ridiculous that it was banned when it was (thanks, CAIR!), when you compare it with the insane number of jihadi videos there, and the obvious terrorists (i.e., this scumbag, whose account I flagged but is STILL THERE).

They’ve got such a double standard at YouTube that there’s really no need for Al Jazeera or terrorist websites any more. All they need is YouTube to broadcast their (un)holy terror war propaganda.

bamapachyderm on February 11, 2007 at 11:27 PM

Thanks once again Mike. Even if God just build the Garden of Eden and popped mankind into place, the capacity to sin was surely part of the design.

To just blame man for exercising this sin is rather like Bill Gates blaming Windows users for system crashes!

uptight on February 12, 2007 at 1:00 AM

I’m still not sold though – however, if God really is a great thing, he’ll see I’m not a bad person and he’ll forgive me anyway.

uptight,

There’s a problem with this. I am aware that I’ll be unlikely to convince you of anything new, but be advised…

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:9-11

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:5-7

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 14:12

Do not expect that God will see that you are “not a bad person”. Your idea of “not a bad person” and His are different. “For the wages of sin is death“. Any sin places you under judgement as disobedient to your Creator. But the way out follows immediately after: “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23

You presume that He will “forgive you anyway”. But not if you don’t accept His forgiveness on His terms, through the Redeemer He prepared for us all…

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:6

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Acts 4:11-13

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:7-9

Nobody will enter Heaven of their own doing, lest they have wherewith to brag about it. No, a person enters Heaven as humbly as a little child, or not at all, realizing that God not only gives them each breath they take, but offers them eternal peace and joy in spite of all our faults and sins. The word offer is significant, because it includes the chance that you may reject that offer. God forces nobody.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:20

Freelancer on February 12, 2007 at 3:57 AM

Freelancer, Thanks for those crucial verses.

I might emphaize also that, yes, God is love, but God is also righteous and won’t excuse sin without payment. We can’t make the payment. Our credit cards of sin are overdrawn. Christ, however, will pay off all our credit card debts if we allow him. That payment was made at the cross. It doesn’t matter if its one sin or ten million.

By the way, the ten commandments were given in Exodus not for man to keep, but rather to expose man’s sinful condition, so Man might receive God’s provision in Christ for his sin. Moses hurling the two tablets of stone with the commandments and breaking them shows that they will be broken.

In the Old Testament the blood of the spotless passover lamb sprinkled on the Jew’s doorpost in Egypt is what caused the death angle to passover that house. Christ is the reality and fulfillment of the pasover lamb. They also had to eat the Lamb to be strenghened for their journey out of Egypt.

Later, in the wilderness, the Jews were being bitten by poisonous snakes. God told Moses to make a brass serpent and put it up on his staff. A brass serpent has no poison. Whoever simply looked upon that serpent would live. It didn’t matter if they were good or bad – they simply had to look. Jesus was the reality of that brass serpent when He was hung on the cross – John 3:14. All we need to do is just look upon Him. The verse says, Looking away unto Jesus… Hebrews 12:2.

Jesus was crucified between two equally bad thieves who were also crucified. Both of them were cursing Jesus, but eventually one of the thieves said, “Lord, remember me in your kingdom,: Jesus replied, “truly, today you will be with me in paradise.” We are like the two thieves – we just need to ask Christ for mercy.

However, the Christian life is not just having one’s sins forgiven. Jesus said, I came that you might have life and have it abundantly - John 10:10. The angel now is no longer guarding the entrance to the Garden of Eden which contains the Tree of Life. We may now enter in and eat of that Tree which was God’s intention. Forget the Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil. What a shame to have one’s sins forgiven, but then not enjoy the marvelous Tree of Life. People just don’t know what they are missing.

Romans 10:12 says the Lord is rich to all who call on Him. That is and has been my experience. It can be everyone’s experience.

Texas Mike on February 12, 2007 at 12:44 PM

I checked out the Skeptics Annotated Bible site, and the citations he takes for violence in the Bible are so silly and so lacking in basic understanding of Christianity that I’d take his Koran quotations with a grain of salt.

That said, this double standard about criticism of Islam versus criticism of other religion needs to keep being exposed before it gets worse.

frankj on February 9, 2007 at 8:37 PM

So take a serious look at a serious hermeneutical work on the Koran: Prophet of Doom

It has been given props by Brigitte Gabriel.

While you are looking at the doctrinal beliefs of Islam, check out the History of Jihad

Tim Burton on February 12, 2007 at 1:00 PM

Thanks once again Mike. Even if God just build the Garden of Eden and popped mankind into place, the capacity to sin was surely part of the design.

To just blame man for exercising this sin is rather like Bill Gates blaming Windows users for system crashes!

uptight on February 12, 2007 at 1:00 AM

Even accepting your priori that the capacity to sin was part of the design fails to put the burden upon God for sin based upon logical terms.

If God is infinitely powerful, he could.
If God is infinitely good, he would.
If God could and would, then he must.
Since He must, then He did.
Since he did create the universe good, then it must be man who is responsible for evil.

But you are ignoring a second part, who then becomes responsible for the crash. If Gates issues a patch and you refuse to DL and install that patch, then you have no one to blame for the crash, except yourself.

Also, hell isn’t there for not choosing Him, it is there for rejecting Him. God believes in your intrinsic value, that he will give you the exact thing you desire. Since you desire yourself to be God (or at least God like), then he will allow you to be God-like in a place apart from him. Now imagine every human alive being placed in a room, all trying to be god-like. We are sickened by the elitism of celebrity, can you imagine it multiplied a billion fold?

Sure, he could give you a choice after you meet him, but that no longer gives you a choice, it would be manipulation, so God allows you to choose freely. It is why I believe Theism is the only rational worldview, but His existence isn’t written in the sky. If it was written in the sky, the freedom to choose would be gone.

Tim Burton on February 12, 2007 at 1:23 PM

Also – isn’t sin part of Gods creation?

uptight on February 11, 2007 at 4:47 PM

Not part of God’s original creation, no.

The first sin is Satan challenging God. Satan wouldn’t repent and fought God, and God removed Satan from His presence. Second sin was Adam and Eve’s temptation by Satan to challenge God’s instructions to not do something. And we do exactly the same things now when we are tempted to challenge God.

Lawrence on February 12, 2007 at 2:34 PM

To just blame man for exercising this sin is rather like Bill Gates blaming Windows users for system crashes!

uptight on February 12, 2007 at 1:00 AM

And that would be a false comparison.

Humankind is weak to Satan’s temptations to strive for equality or superiority with God. Consequently one of the illustrations of Original Sin is the temptation to become equal to or better than God.

Without the saving Grace of Christ’s sacrifice there is no way for us to account when we fall to temptations. We can’t blame ourselves for something that is inherent to our human natures which are born weak due to original sin. If there is blame, it goes to Satan for tempting us to sin through our weaknesses.

But, like before, this isn’t God’s original plan. That’s why Christ was born and then died for us.

Yet, God doesn’t dictate that we believe and follow Him. He gives us a choice. Eternal life with God or eternal life without God, but according to God’s rules, not according to our misguided temptation inspired rules.

Lawrence on February 12, 2007 at 2:45 PM

Hi Tim,
I agree with you. Man has the freedom and responsibility to choose. It is no glory to God to have robots follow Him. Even the angels had the freedom to choose.

However Romans 3:11 says no one seeks out God, so man has already made a choice to reject God. The reason man made that choice is due to being infected with the virus of sin – this is the result of Satan and not God. God allows a choice, Satan does not. Satan deserves blame, not God.

So, in effect man has no choice. But man doesn’t care. Man is in a hopeless, pitiful condition. It is only due to God’s far reaching mercy that man has a stirring within to even consider these things.

Texas Mike on February 12, 2007 at 2:49 PM

Some times that God feller isn’t paying attention and needs a good talking to.

MSimon on February 11, 2007 at 10:52 AM

The last thing our omnipotent creator needs is one of his creations lecturing him about things we don’t fully understand.

God creates solutions. In the face of Satan’s challenges and our temptations to do the same, God provides a solution for us to resist and escape our sinful temptations.

This is the beauty of the Biblical creation story. Adam and Eve fell to temptation and God exacted the punishment that He promised. A punishment that affects all mankind since, ending in the eventual death of our physical bodies and possible eternal life apart from His presence.

Yet, in His loving compassion, God provided the way for our eternal souls to escape that punishment and again share in His full righteous presence. Just like Adam and Eve did prior to their fall to Satan’s temptation.

Lawrence on February 12, 2007 at 2:58 PM

I agree Lawrence,

After the rebellion of Satan God made man in His image and likeness to have dominion over everything in the earth including every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. God does not deal with Satan directly – He uses man, his creation, to deal with this spirit-being. Although man was damaged by the Satanic virus of sin, Satan was now trapped in man’s flesh. Satan made a big blunder. Before then, he was elusive. However, by entering into man he was trapped like a fly on flypaper.

Christ took that “flesh of sin” and it was crucified on the cross. So, not only were our sins paid for, but Satan was also dealt with and his works destoyed on the cross – Romans 8:3 and I john 3:8 makes that clear. Satan today is like a toothless roaring lion who no longer can do damage.

What a glory to God that God can change sinners to sons.

Texas Mike on February 12, 2007 at 3:05 PM