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Why of course he does, but that does not mean that he hasn’t earned a one-way ticket to join Saddam.
bbz123 on January 31, 2007 at 10:44 PM
Yes, indeed it is.
It is also true that Jesus hates the things that Osama says and does. Don’t see a billboard up on that though, now DO we? The other unspoken truth is that this is a splendid example of shameless exploitation and misrepresentation of the message of the gospel that driven by questionable motives. The lust for MONEY is my prime suspect.
CyberCipher on January 31, 2007 at 10:46 PM
It is up to God to judge Osama bin Laden, it is up to us to arrange the meeting.
Savage on January 31, 2007 at 10:47 PM
Those Aussies and their prankster sheepherders.
Jesus may love Osama, but I think the opportunity to tell him so may have passed. Satan on the other hand, might have OBL on his dance card.
fogw on January 31, 2007 at 10:55 PM
The Anglican church is beyond parody. Does it ever occur to these people to acutally, you know, read the Bible?
aengus on January 31, 2007 at 11:03 PM
Actually, they are on sound theological grounds here. Jesus loves Osama. But like the article says, there is a difference between Jesus loving Osama, and Jesus approving of what he does.
You could also say that Osama makes Jesus weep. Because of the evil that he does.
EFG on January 31, 2007 at 11:10 PM
EFG, are you suggesting he has yet to cross the line into making baby Jesus weep?
bbz123 on January 31, 2007 at 11:16 PM
The sign is spot about Gods love! I know it seems unlikely but if Osama were to truely embrace Christ and all he stood for one hour or minute before his death we would have a new neighbor in heaven. Thats not likely to happen, but this is a good illustration to the public, of the depth of Gods love.
sonnyspats1 on January 31, 2007 at 11:18 PM
Looks like Allah is throwing out the God bait to get another 500+ comment thread going. Why not just use the red meat pic too?
thedecider on January 31, 2007 at 11:20 PM
Okay, I’ll bite (though I have a full-time job and refuse to stay up for this one).
For traditional Christians, this doctrine is actually true. God hates the sin but loves the sinner – and yes, that includes such hideous men as bin Laden, Hitler, Pol Pot, et. al.
It’s unlikely any of these men had a death-bed epiphany to turn to salvation and will actually be in heaven. But if we (as Christians) really believe our doctrines, *cringe alert* it could happen.
thedecider on January 31, 2007 at 11:27 PM
Let the lashing begin.
thedecider on January 31, 2007 at 11:28 PM
Things like this are what make me not very religious. It’s unthinkable that – say – Bin Laden could nuke New York and kill millions of people. Have a death bed “epiphany” and still go to heaven. Bullshit. May as well be a catholic, say a few hail mary’s and you’re good to go.
lorien1973 on January 31, 2007 at 11:31 PM
What’s the point of living a decent life if all you have to do is repent on your deathbed?
Thin i’ll go to a topless bar and sin the night away.
Scot on January 31, 2007 at 11:36 PM
*groan*
EFG on January 31, 2007 at 11:39 PM
It’s an unrequited love, though, isn’t it…
Jaibones on January 31, 2007 at 11:39 PM
Good grief He’s not a baby anymore! Didn’t you see Talladega Nights?
thedecider on January 31, 2007 at 11:41 PM
For whom?
Anwyn on January 31, 2007 at 11:45 PM
I’ve always wondered that myself.
Allahpundit on January 31, 2007 at 11:48 PM
Allah, you just love goading us on. “Oh here, let me hold your coats while you guys duke it out.” I guess that’s what blogging is all about.
Of course Christ said to love your enemies and pray for them. While He was being cruxified He prayed for his executioners.
Last minute conversions are possible. Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer both professed Jesus Christ before they died. Let’s face it, all of earth’s religions come down to “some guy said” with the exception of the Bible. In it you have prophecy that actually comes true.
In terms of when the Bible was written, we need to bear in mind the entire Old Testament was translated into Greek around 200 years B.C. by the 70 (Septuagint). The place of Christ’s birth, His date of birth, His lineage from King David, the amount of His betrayal, His method of death, burial place, etc. were all prophecied hundreds of years before the events happened. No other religious book has prophecy in it like this. With religion it’s put up or shut up. The Bible can put up.
Mojave Mark on January 31, 2007 at 11:49 PM
Off the cuff, I’d say it’s mainly because that’s not as easy to do as it sounds–honest repentance after an indecent life.
But everybody’s free to take his/her own chance with that.
Anwyn on January 31, 2007 at 11:53 PM
For an aethiest, you sure do a whole helluva lot of religion related posting AllahP.
Be brave. Take the next step. Go to a church with someone you know and trust. Listen to the good word, see the good works, then ask Jesus into your heart! There’s no obligation to buy anything. It’s totally free.
SilverStar830 on January 31, 2007 at 11:54 PM
Well, it isn’t a legal loophole. You see, you have to really mean it, not just be using it in a cynical manner.
I suppose the film Bad Lieutenant expresses it better than I can.
EFG on February 1, 2007 at 12:02 AM
Allahpundit,
For a professed athiest, you surely spend a lot of time thinking about such things as belief, religion, God (or lack thereof), good vs. evil, etc.
This doesn’t mean that I think you’re a hypocrite. Actually, it makes me believe that you are not quite certain in your non-belief, and open to consideration of various viewpoints on these matters.
I would rather converse with a thinking athiest than a rabid Christian whose mind is closed to any ideas that conflict with his own.
hillbillyjim on February 1, 2007 at 12:03 AM
Enrique, on the other hand…..
hillbillyjim on February 1, 2007 at 12:03 AM
That’s actually a great question, and Allah is interested in getting a lot of responses so humor me by considering my response. Christians believe there will be “rewards” in heaven related to the lives they lived on the earth. Eternity is a very long time and apparently the rewards you receive determine the role you will play in the afterlife. So sinning the night away leading up to your deathbed repentance is likely not a good idea. Also, sinning the night away could forfeit your chance for that deathbed repentance depending on what you’re doing. Tomorrow is not a certainty for anyone.
thedecider on February 1, 2007 at 12:04 AM
I don’t, particularly.
But yeah, there’s also the fact that you never know when that deathbed will arrive.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 12:08 AM
No, I just like the debate. Religion is one of a precious few subjects that actually inspires disagreement in the comments.
To turn on a dime from sin to piety, no. To spend decades being an A-hole and then start to repent in your dotage with death at the door? That’s easier to imagine.
Seems awfully unfair to give a lifelong bastard a reprieve just because he’s afraid at the eleventh hour of going to hell.
I went to a Catholic elementary school and a Jesuit high school. I’ve listened to the good word. I say this with all due respect to Christians, many of whom I admire — Michelle, Bryan, Mary Katharine, and Kirsten, to name just a few off the top of my head — but the Biblical narrative seems ridiculous to me. If you want to tell me that’s because I’m “blind” or ignorant, that’s fine. Could be. But as I’ve said (I think) in the comments in other religion posts on this site, for all the mocking I do of Truthers, their theory of 9/11 is marginally more credible to me than the idea of someone rising from the dead. At least it doesn’t rely on magic, you know?
I don’t mean to pick on Christians, either. A lot of atheist/agnostic types claim to be against “religion,” but the more you listen to them, the more they only seem to have one religion in mind. Despicable.
Well, sure. I don’t know that there’s no god. As I say, it could well be that I’m just missing something. Two billion Jesus fans can’t be wrong. (Well, they can, but their beliefs at least deserve a respectful hearing.)
Allahpundit on February 1, 2007 at 12:16 AM
Only marginally so, for me. The vast majority of people don’t know or acknowledge that they’re a-holes, don’t know how to change it if they do, or if they know, won’t take the trouble. After a lifetime of it, it’s going to take some heavy jolt, or something to start them on a train of thought that ends in genuine repentance. I still don’t think it would be very easy.
Yes, it does.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 12:21 AM
Well stated! Honestly, it’s something everyone has to figure out for themselves. I think it’s impossible to convince anyone of what I beleive. They must have their own experience and it can’t be shoved down their throats.
thedecider on February 1, 2007 at 12:21 AM
I would pray for my enemies until they come within range. Hypocrite? Hell I’m a walking contradiction. My heroes are Sgt. York and the sniper from Saving Pvt.Ryan.
Buck Turgidson on February 1, 2007 at 12:22 AM
Well, I don’t really believe in heaven or hell as most imagine it. But anyhow, that’s not truly repenting. Being sorry because you want to have better self esteem on your deathbed or because you want to go to heaven is not true penitance. It’s just self-absorbed regret. It’s like giving to charity in order to think of yourself as charitable, rather than because you actually love the people you’re trying to help. It’s better than nothing, but it’s not enough, particularly if you’ve lived a life of evil.
sandberg on February 1, 2007 at 12:28 AM
As I just said, I don’t think that’s what happens.
But anyhow, what does fair have to do with it? Christianity is inherently unfair; the more virtuous people bear greater burdens. Look at what happened to Jesus and almost all of his disciples. If Christianity were fair, they would have lived long lives of luxury, instead of dying horrific deaths at a young age.
sandberg on February 1, 2007 at 12:31 AM
What if they really do come to understand in their old age the pain they’ve inflicted on other people, though? That’s not hard to imagine.
My most fundamental problem with Christianity is that it’s premised on forgiveness and I believe there are many things that shouldn’t be forgiven. The “Jesus Loves Osama” thing cuts right to the heart of it. I understand the point; I understand that Christ would have to forgive Bin Laden if he was truly sorry and accepted him as his savior. Me, I think that’d be lovely and yet I’d still want to crack his head open with a baseball bat.
Sometimes “sorry” just isn’t good enough, you know?
Allahpundit on February 1, 2007 at 12:36 AM
‘Scuse me for observing that’s why you’re you and he’s God.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 12:38 AM
That’s not enough. They have to become a person who would no longer inflict that pain if they could go back and do it all again. That’s pretty much never gonna happen. Besides, at the time that they inflicted that pain, they did understand it; it either didn’t matter enough, or they wanted to cause the pain. If they truly didn’t understand, we wouldn’t call them evil for it, just tragically misinformed.
My problem with Christianity is the walking on water stuff. The ethics stuff I quite like.
sandberg on February 1, 2007 at 12:41 AM
If there were things people could do that God couldn’t forgive, that would deny all the “omnis” that go with God–omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. It would mean a person could do something God couldn’t imagine or hadn’t foreseen.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 12:41 AM
Sorry, Anwyn. I didn’t have this earlier, but this is where the “rewards” thing comes into play: I Corinthians 3:12-15. It talks about our works being “revealed” by fire. The works are in the form of gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and stubble. I suppose sinning the night away would fall in one of the category’s of wood, hay and stubble as the fire would consume them. Only the gold, silver, and precious stones (the good works we do) survive the fire.
thedecider on February 1, 2007 at 12:42 AM
Yeah, but Christians are supposed to emulate God, no? They’re supposed to try to do what God would do while knowing that, because of their humanity, they’ll often fail. Well, I think it’s contemptible to even try to forgive Bin Laden.
Allahpundit on February 1, 2007 at 12:44 AM
Yeah. I take that as judgment, not reward. If all there is to us is “sinning the night away,” to take the current phrase, it’ll all be burned away and nothing of us left to experience eternity with God. It’s really about what you put into your soul.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 12:45 AM
Sorry, the above was to thedecider.
AllahP, I don’t happen to believe that every human being is called upon to forgive each. I’m sure there are myriad Christians right on this thread who will disagree with me. Which is simply to say that I don’t believe you or I, individually, is called upon to fogive OBL.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 12:48 AM
That’s why most Christian conservatives I know are staunch supporters of the death penalty. Christian liberals harp on the “what would Jesus do” thing when it comes to that issue.
Rick on February 1, 2007 at 12:48 AM
As humans, we can’t imagine a God that is complete love. A God who loved His creation enough to send His only Son to die – to reconcile us (His creation) – back to Him. If you loved a creation so much that you sacrificed the only child you had to get it back, would not feel that your child died in vain if you couldn’t provide a means to get the entire creation back? It defies logic, Allah. It does not defy perfect love.
thedecider on February 1, 2007 at 12:49 AM
Why aren’t you called upon to forgive him? You’re a Christian, right? Presumably Christ would want you to follow the golden rule. If you fail, fair enough; you’re only human. But you’ve got to at least try as hard as you can, no?
Allahpundit on February 1, 2007 at 12:50 AM
Let me take this a step further and be perfectly clear, at the risk of making myself a target:
I do not believe anybody who was not personally injured by OBL, for example by having a family member killed in 9/11, is called upon to forgive him and that yes, I actually agree with you that it would be presumptuous, yes, maybe contemptible, for me (or you, if you don’t fall into the category I’ve named and God knows I hope you don’t) to try to forgive him. I think people who have been personally injured by his acts have earned the right to decide for themselves and not be judged “contemptible” by you or me, however.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 12:51 AM
Okay, I think the above answers your last as well as what I quoted. If it’s an easy out, it’s an honest one, not deliberate.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 12:52 AM
I’m making myself a complete target here.
There’s another way to look at this. Jesus, on the cross and considering his tormenters (those who just beat, whipped, spat upon, mocked, and tortured Him) said to God..”forgive them for they know not what they do”. Can you imagine asking God to forgive the SOB’s that just did this to you? I doubt it. You’d want revenge, right? More than you want revenge for bin Laden, no? The point is, God is perfect love. We are not. We are fallen beings who live our lives in the flesh trying to follow the example Jesus set for us. Of course we fail. Of course our feelings and emotions get in the way. You may not understand God, but in this life I don’t believe we ever can. We can only try our best to live the life He asks us to live to the best of our ability with His help.
thedecider on February 1, 2007 at 1:02 AM
I think Christians are called upon to love what good remains in bin Laden, and to pray for his redemption; he was made in the image of God. We are not called upon to deny reality and pretend he’s somebody he isn’t. You’re relying on nuances of the English word “forgive” which I don’t think were intended in Jesus’ original teachings.
sandberg on February 1, 2007 at 1:02 AM
Allah, only you can decide what you do or don’t believe. I have no issue with your beliefs and for the most part feel you give us a fair shake. The comment about needing a third party stung a little but hey-we say lots of things too. I think not having been raised in the church worked to my spiritual advantage. On sunday mornings as a kid my trinity was Gunsmoke, Bonanza, and the Big Valley. I know many male friends and contemporaries who were raised in the Catholic church who want no part of religion. I respect the church, my anecdotal perspective gives me the impression it somehow fails to reach young men. (No priest jokes please.) I’m being serious.
Buck Turgidson on February 1, 2007 at 1:03 AM
I hate to be one of those “you’re missing the point” guys, but… You’re missing the point.
Jesus Christ, GOD the Son, offered Himself as a sacrafice for mankind’s sin. Is there ANY sin that the very blood of God Himself can’t cleanse through His blood? The Infinite price has been paid for finite sin. What is our part in all this? Just accept it. At your judgment God doesn’t await you with a graphing HP calculator to see if your goodness outweighs your badness. That’s rediculous. He awaits you with one question. Did you accept the sacrafice made for you or did you reject it.
Mojave Mark on February 1, 2007 at 1:06 AM
I’m going to assume that most of you know one about arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics.
With that being said, what’s your opinion re: Macs vs. PCs?
Star Wars vs. Star Trek?
Jennifer Aniston vs. Angelina Jolie?
Vinnie on February 1, 2007 at 1:10 AM
Yeah, actually Anwyn, I was taught that it is both. Through the judgment our rewards are revealed. The bad things are burned up and the good things remain.
thedecider on February 1, 2007 at 1:11 AM
By the way, I’m not defending those billboards, which I thought were tasteless.
As a fact, it’s literally true. But the choice of facts on a billboard is itself a meta message. For example, if I have a small billboard and I use it to state the number of deaths in Iraq and the federal deficit, it has an anti-Bush meta message, does it not? The meta message in this case is misleading, insensitive, and cold-hearted.
sandberg on February 1, 2007 at 1:11 AM
Star Wars, but I did come up with a nice Star Trek analogy with Ensign Allah wanting to separate the Christian saucer from the libertarian battle bridge. Apparently those damn ion engines in the saucer section are putting too much drag on the warp drive.
*duck*
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 1:12 AM
Hey Vinnie, great ice-breaker. I’ll say this:
1. I still prefer the PC (because it’s the biggest seller there’s more you can buy for it).
2. Definitely Star Trek (the original, and still the standard).
3. Jennifer Aniston (she’s still like the girl next door – much more so than Jolie).
thedecider on February 1, 2007 at 1:15 AM
Never tried a Mac, so I’d go with PC;
Star Wars, no contest;
Jennifer for the long haul and Angelina for a fling
Rick on February 1, 2007 at 1:17 AM
I believe that it is not up to me or anyone else not injured personally to forgive or not to forgive Osama Bin Laden. Ultimately, when the Fat Lady sings, it is up to God to decide OBL’s eternal fate.
If I had lost a loved one to this monster, I suppose I would be faced with a moral dilemma as to whether or not to forgive him.
It would be presumptious at the least, and callously disrespectful of those who are truly victims, to assume the role of arbitor of forgiveness for OBL’s transgressions.
As a Christian, it is incumbent upon me to try to love all men and to live a righteous life. In this, sadly, I fail every day. I truly hate Bin Laden and the evil that is afoot in this world because of him, and I felt a certain “there-you-go” satisfaction in your ball-bat reference.
hillbillyjim on February 1, 2007 at 1:18 AM
Hey, lookee there, I’m not the only one. Cheers, hillbillyjim.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 1:19 AM
Star Wars, but I did come up with a nice Star Trek analogy with Ensign Allah wanting to separate the Christian saucer from the libertarian battle bridge. Apparently those damn ion engines in the saucer section are putting too much drag on the warp drive.
*duck*
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 1:12 AM
Interesting, but inacurate, if I may be so bold. I don’t think real life libertarians make very good war hawks. Where as conservative Christians seem more willing to endure what we have to endure in this war.
Is that ironic? Maybe. Not really sure myself. It’s just what I see.
EFG on February 1, 2007 at 1:22 AM
When it really comes down to it, Christ desn’t ‘have’ to do anything, He is God. Period.
He instituted the plan of salvation because He wanted to, because He loves us. Yes, ALL of us. But the promise of salvation in response to repentance and faith does not in any way negate all of the other promises God has made. For example:
Galatians 6:7 “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.”
A lifetime of evil will corrupt the human soul to the core, to the point of being irredeemable. The reprobate soul has no desire to be saved. That’s what makes the concept of deathbead conversions of people like Hitler and OBL ludicrous, IMO.
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”
Even the faith we need to repent and believe and be saved is a gift from God. There is a lot more going on here than just a simple human choice that God doesn’t participate in. We have the free will to choose, but He is intimately involved in bringing us to that choice. He has a choice as well. In Exodus we are told that God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” against the children of Israel, in response to Pharaoh’s refusal to show them mercy. That doesn’t sound like God was holding out much hope that Pharaoh was gonna change his mind. IMO, God looked into Pharaoh’s heart and saw that he was reprobate, beyond hope. I would be extremely shocked if OBL was not in that same hopeless condition.
Salvation is far more than just a simplistic choice like fries or onion rings. The condition of the soul, and God’s involvement play huge parts in addition to the human decision.
infidel4life on February 1, 2007 at 1:25 AM
It’s been a fun debate tonight folks. Thanks for humoring me but I live in the central time zone and as I said in an earlier post, I have a full time job I need to get up for in the morning. Good night and thanks Allah for another interesting thread.
thedecider on February 1, 2007 at 1:26 AM
I’ll have one of each, please, with a side salad and some beer-battered mushrooms.
hillbillyjim on February 1, 2007 at 1:27 AM
Back atcha.
Difficult subject– no perfect answers to unanswerable questions.
hillbillyjim on February 1, 2007 at 1:32 AM
Jesus was commanding us, as God, to love our enemies. We, as sons of Adam, are in the same lot as Osama – cursed for our sins. Jesus was not. Jesus loves those whom have been given to Him. We should all pray for Osama, and forgive him, but if he goes to his grave unrepentant, rest assured, Jesus does not love those burning in Hell.
PRCalDude on February 1, 2007 at 1:52 AM
Much as I like you both, Anwyn and hillbillyjim, ObL injured many more than just the 9/11 victims and their families. He injured all of us Americans, and really all freedom-loving people in the world.
I will never forgive him. His beliefs and actions are a personal affront on everything I hold most dear. I will not even try to forgive this monster and I am not in the least tortured about this decision, not even a bit doubtful for that matter.
Entelechy on February 1, 2007 at 1:55 AM
Who is guaranteed a deathbed? Better pray that you don’t get hit by a car on the way home…
Mallard T. Drake on February 1, 2007 at 2:01 AM
Entelechy, yes, more than just those murdered and those who loved them were hurt, but there are a couple of levels here: to the extent that he injured people’s beliefs in freedom and damaged our national security, that is a state matter that our government took and is taking steps to handle. On the personal level, however, no, he didn’t hurt me. I hope that does not make me callous–I believe instead that it doesn’t make me presuptuous for thinking I can identify with what a family member or other loved one went through. And the personal is what we’re talking about here, not the state.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 2:09 AM
One point missing here is that Osama doesn’t care a fig about being forgiven by Jesus. Given his druthers, he’ll break every cross and blow up every church. He’s more in the profile of a classic anti-Christ. Forgiving him seems as senseless as having a moral response to a tornado, tidal wave, etc. (act of God?).
laelaps on February 1, 2007 at 2:12 AM
Okay, clarification time: that is NOT to say I didn’t *feel hurt* when it happened. I’m just saying my hurt is not like the hurt of the direct victims, which includes the survivors who loved the dead.
Anwyn on February 1, 2007 at 2:12 AM
I hear ya… though I’d probably want to start with all his fingers and toes first.
Watcher on February 1, 2007 at 2:13 AM
Aw crap. All this speculating about how Jesus feels about Osama, etc. This is getting so deep it’s probably going to make him come back to straighten this all out for everyone. Unfortunately, I doubt he’ll be in a very good mood about it.
Then again, I think this is what some people want.
Benthoven on February 1, 2007 at 2:16 AM
Of course any thinking, feeling human being was in some way damaged by nine-eleven, and the other atrocities committed and/or abetted by Osama Bin Laden.
Every time I watch a re-run of NYPD Blue, I am furious and sad at the same time, when the shots of the twin towers are aired on the opening ‘reel’.
Yet, I still don’t feel that it is up to me to forgive or not. “Judge ye not, lest ye be judged” applies here, I believe.
Were I Caesar, and the Arena was my domain, I would surely give “Thumbs Down” for OBL. Yet that is not my role.
Even those directly damaged must yield to the ultimate Decider when it comes to these matters, for it is up to Him in the LONG run and we risk our souls by carrying hate around in our hearts.
Yes, I do hate. But the struggle to overcome this human weakness is a part of what Christianity, and religion in general, is all about.
hillbillyjim on February 1, 2007 at 2:37 AM
I agree. He injured THE WORLD. His acts will have negative repercussions for generations to come.
Yet it is important, even essential, that we don’t let his brand of hate infect us all.
Retribution is a very good medicine. But there is a fine line between retribution and revenge. Revenge is retribution coupled with hate, and hate is a self-destructive emotion.
Well, hell. Enough philosophy for one night.
How’s the Entelechy corner of the Universe?
Inquiring minds want to know.
hillbillyjim on February 1, 2007 at 2:49 AM
The one thing I think we can all agree on, is that it’s a glorius world when even people in Saudi Arabia have the opportunity to watch King of Queens.
RightWinged on February 1, 2007 at 3:31 AM
You know, I don’t remember which ones, but some of the very ancient Christian theologians used to debate exactly this issue. Some of them said God couldn’t forgive the devil, but that was shot down and the official position emerged was that God could forgive the devil himself.
The devil doesn’t seem to be too interested in forgiveness or repentance, however, so the debate seems academic to me.
see-dubya on February 1, 2007 at 5:35 AM
I wasn’t sure if I should get in on this or not, but here it goes.
Of course Jesus loves Osama, but the article made the point that he doesn’t approve of what he does. Of course something like this does not make sense to our puny mortal minds. Read Ezekiel 33. It doesn’t seem fair.
As far as the “let’s party, then I’ll convert on my deathbed” comments. First off, you don’t know when you’ll be on your deathbed. You could pull a John Ritter and drop dead on the spot without warning. Secondly, you don’t think God knows what you’re up to? I mean it’s not like he’s omnipotent or anything. “Oh, yeah lets just pull one over on the old guy, he won’t notice.” How about “God will not be mocked.”, “You will reap what you sow.” If you think you can just pull the wool over God’s eyes, you need to get over yourself.
vcferlita on February 1, 2007 at 6:54 AM
Hehehe….If I were Osama (given what he believes) I’d be insulted by that banner. The church may have just made itself a target.
.
GT on February 1, 2007 at 7:21 AM
I think he meant Obama, who’s the Messiah.
Attila (Pillage Idiot) on February 1, 2007 at 7:49 AM
Osama bin Obama, er, Osama Obama, er, Hussein Osama, er, I need another drink.
TwinkietheKid on February 1, 2007 at 7:49 AM
The liberal bastards love Osama Bin Laden.
Everyone knows that.
JackM on February 1, 2007 at 8:29 AM
They on the other hand – well, we just can’t imagine how grime like them could ever be forgiven.
But, from the altitude of Christ’s perfection my “decent” life looks no closer to heaven (more deserving of forgiveness) than Dahmer’s or Osama’s. Heaven is heaven because it’s the home of Perfection Himself. If a little imperfection is allowed in, why shouldn’t all of it be? What hypocrites we are, expecting allowances for our “mistakes”, but demanding justice to rain down on the “sin” of others. Don’t misunderstand me, existence would be futile without the hope of justice. Just recognize that if pure justice falls, it’ll crush all of us.
My one and only hope comes not from my achievement, but from The Only Perfect Man who deliberately stood in my place and took the crushing I deserve.
“There was nothing beautiful or majestic about His appearance, nothing to attract us to Him. He was despised and rejected-a man of sorrows, acquainted with the deepest grief. We turned our backs on Him and looked the other way. He was despised, and we did not care. Yet it was our weaknesses He carried; it was our sorrows that weighed Him down. . . . He was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed.”
Thank God for His amazing love.
Oh, and Allah – if life comes from you to begin with you should be able to put it down and pick it up whenever you want. Reading this blog and every other, it should be readily apparent that we humans have made an utter mess of this world and have no hope of restoring it. I for one have staked my destiny on the all-or-nothing proposition that there is a God with the power of Life and Love who has purposed to straighten every crooked thing!
The Ritz on February 1, 2007 at 8:33 AM
Sorry, here’s the whole post . . .
Funny how our first impulse is to pull the Dahmer-Osama standard out to measure ourselves by. We’re sure that the cut-off line for the heaven-bound is somewhere below us, but we’re equally as sure it’s above guys like them. We’re trying to be decent, you see. They on the other hand – well, we just can’t imagine how grime like them could ever be forgiven.
But, from the altitude of Christ’s perfection my “decent” life looks no closer to heaven (more deserving of forgiveness) than Dahmer’s or Osama’s. Heaven is heaven because it’s the home of Perfection Himself. If a little imperfection is allowed in, why shouldn’t all of it be? What hypocrites we are, expecting allowances for our “mistakes”, but demanding justice to rain down on the “sin” of others. Don’t misunderstand me, existence would be futile without the hope of justice. Just recognize that if pure justice falls, it’ll crush all of us.
My one and only hope comes not from my achievement, but from The Only Perfect Man who deliberately stood in my place and took the crushing I deserve.
“There was nothing beautiful or majestic about His appearance, nothing to attract us to Him. He was despised and rejected-a man of sorrows, acquainted with the deepest grief. We turned our backs on Him and looked the other way. He was despised, and we did not care. Yet it was our weaknesses He carried; it was our sorrows that weighed Him down. . . . He was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed.”
Thank God for His amazing love.
Oh, and Allah – if life comes from you to begin with you should be able to put it down and pick it up whenever you want. Reading this blog and every other, it should be readily apparent that we humans have made an utter mess of this world and have no hope of restoring it. I for one have staked my destiny on the all-or-nothing proposition that there is a God with the power of Life and Love who has purposed to straighten every crooked thing!
The Ritz on February 1, 2007 at 8:34 AM
Indeed. However, “love” and “forgive” don’t mean “sit idly by as these animale saw your head off with a rusty butter knife”.
Kid from Brooklyn on February 1, 2007 at 8:43 AM
Amen.
Buck Turgidson on February 1, 2007 at 8:49 AM
I have a lot to work on – I can’t bring myself to forgive ObL. I guess my Sacred Heart education didn’t indoctrinate me enough.
pullingmyhairout on February 1, 2007 at 8:51 AM
And all Democrats are traitors right?
Yawn…………………..
Bradky on February 1, 2007 at 9:00 AM
We’ve had this debate on this site before. At that time, I seem to recall a number of people pointing out that there is a difference between forgiveness and justice, and that there is something to God giving governments the authority to hand out justice.
As for the resurrection relying on magic…well, I think that if you are going to have a problem with the Christian narrative, then the resurrection is a good thing to have a problem with. I mean, how incredible is something like that? All I would say is that magic – probably not. If one can imagine that there is a God, who is the source of all that it (whether evolved or created fully formed), is it then really so much of a stretch that that same God can bring a person back from the dead?
nailinmyeye on February 1, 2007 at 9:03 AM
I struggle with Thou shalt have no God before me, and how does that reconcile with the moon worshippers and their false god? Jesus loves everyone. Does He condemn and curse those who willfully break His laws? He loves us all yet weeps for those who turn away.
Only Sister Leonella, a much better Christian than I will ever be, could pray that God forgive her murderers as she was dying.
CrimsonFisted on February 1, 2007 at 9:06 AM
AP: “My most fundamental problem with Christianity is that it’s premised on forgiveness and I believe there are many things that shouldn’t be forgiven.”
All things can and will be forgiven if the repentance is true and honest. At the core is free will and the constant struggle to exist in a material world yet strive to adhere to the teachings of Christ. Very few have even come close to existing and living as Christ did and taught. In fact God expects us to sin, but wants us to understand our frailities and work to overcome them. The power to overcome anything is within us all but the understanding of how is not, although it can be taught and learned.
Early Christianity is far different than the Christianity of today. There are gospels and writings excluded from the bible that are fascinating to say the least. There’s more to us than just trying to live decent lives. Jesus wanted us to understand who and why we are and encorporate that into our daily lifes. I also went to Catholic schools but at this point I just trying to understand the true meaning of who we are and why we’re here. I’m only scratching the surface, but I can say there’s much more than we’ve been told.
darwin on February 1, 2007 at 9:29 AM
Exactly right.
The question we must ask ourselves is:
Do we Love Jesus in return?
Do we return Jesus’ sentiments, or do we reject and mock Him?
Everyone in these discussions fit into one of these two camps. As individuals we know in which one we fit.
Lawrence on February 1, 2007 at 9:30 AM
There are plenty of murderers on death row whose parents love them despite their actions. God is love, he can’t help but loving even the most heinous of us. That being said…
Justice most be done, both here and in the hereafter, because of the actions of the heinous against God’s other children who are also loved. God gave the only way out for even the most heinous among us, repentance and forgiveness through the blood of his only begotten Son.
Valiant on February 1, 2007 at 9:32 AM
Your fundamental problem with Christianity is the very thing that makes Christianity different from other religions.
There are only two types of world religions. Religion of Law, and Religion of Grace.
Christianity is the only religion that is based on Grace where salvation is won for us by God. All others are based on some kind of Law where we must do something to earn God’s salvation.
God is the one who defined what sin is, and likewise defined what slavation is. We may not like or agree with it, but we don’t have the power to change it.
Beleive what you will, but Christianity really is a different kind of religion.
Lawrence on February 1, 2007 at 9:37 AM
Well said.
.
GT on February 1, 2007 at 9:56 AM
Don’t you people sleep? Sleep is good.
Slublog on February 1, 2007 at 10:04 AM
As painful as it may be I will open my mouth anyway…
When I face God He will not pat me on the back for the good things I have done. He will hold up to me the bad things I have done. It doesn’t matter to God if I accepted his Grace at age 2 or at age 95. Repentence is not ‘coping a plea’.
Repentence is the heart felt acceptance of the consequences for my actions. What those consequences are I have no idea but I will not be allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless I suffer them willingly as my just desserts.
Some, who’s souls were less soiled by sin, will suffer little if any. Others, who’s souls are filty, will suffer much. Like Jesus suffered on the cross, I will suffer. How much I suffer is up to me.
Vengeful God? Maybe. One day I will find out.
Limerick on February 1, 2007 at 10:25 AM
That’s right. Normally, a person would claim to repent, and then the rest of the world would have the chance to observe to see if indeed he’d had a change of heart – there would be a transforming, a liar to a truth teller, a cheat to generous, etc. – with a genuine happy heart. Others make a big deal of confessing, then in a year are right back where they were. God knows what’s in a person’s heart. He knows if it’s complete or not. A deathbed conversion? Some are genuinely complete, some are backsliding quality. That’s it. Keep it simple.
There are only two types of world religions. Religion of Law, and Religion of Grace.
Laurence
Well put. It’s easy to see what this means when one compares Islam to CHristianity. Islam requires obedience to the Law – a list of strict requirements to fulfill in order to achieve paradise. It is an easy trap to fall into even for CHristians, salvation by deeds, not by faith. A complete Christian has faith and good deeds follow. Good deeds alone aren’t enough – anyone can do that. The rich spend a lot of time doing good deeds, cause they have the money. Poor people don’t have that cash power and if salvation was based on deed, the poor could easily be left behind in the big scramble. This is just the problem Martin Luther concluded with the Catholic Church in the 1500s, selling indulgences to finance church projects. He found there were too many “activities” that were being pushed as being tickets to redemption. He had wanted the Church to reform itself; he didn’t expect to be kicked out. To be fair, the Catholic Church, facing competition and correction from the Protestant movement did over time eliminate the most egrecious of these activities.
naliaka on February 1, 2007 at 10:28 AM
My friend (sincerely), if you believe even a few have come close you don’t understand the light years between Christ’s perfection and our human condition. Point to Mother Theresa if you will, my assertion won’t change.
Look around, the chasm of human impotence will never be filled by our pitiable attempts at self-improvement. If the unachievable is reached and human depravity is fully overcome, still disease and death remain. Flawless existence is beyond us – unless it is gifted to us by Someone who has the ability and authority to do so.
The Ritz on February 1, 2007 at 10:47 AM
Repectfully, please read Romans, chapter 3.
.
GT on February 1, 2007 at 11:00 AM
Jesus hated evil, Osama is evil, Jesus hates Osama. Sometime academics get in the way of logic.
Never did Jesus embrace and tolerate evil…and nor should we.
To be saved you must ask for God’s forgiveness, but along with that are verses to support that you need also the forgiveness from the people you have harmed. If you have murdered someone you cannot ask for their forgiveness…unfortunately for Osama, one of the sins that cannot be forgiven by anyone but God. So we are charged with what is before us, a murderous evil man (and his followers) bent on destroying as many of us as he can.
Jesus does not love him, and neither do I.
right2bright on February 1, 2007 at 11:01 AM
I fail to understand your point GT. Sorry. Layman and all.
Did I fail to understand that we all bear sin?
Limerick on February 1, 2007 at 11:12 AM
Jesus claims His defeat of all sin on our behalf is for every human, regardless, because all of us are sinful in some way.
While Jesus does Love Osama, just like He loves everyone, (including everyone posting here at Hot Air) Osama has rejected that Love and Mocks the message of Christ’s Grace. In rejecting Jesus, the Christ, he abandons his protection from condemnation under God’s Law.
Osama will try to answer to God on his own merit, without Christ’s intervention, and God will judge him accordingly.
Question we must ask ourselves is, are we also hoping to answer to God on our own merit, without Christ’s free gift of salvation?
Lawrence on February 1, 2007 at 11:18 AM
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