Therefore, our advice is for you to buy an up-to-date cable descrambler from your cable TV company….

Let’s go hypothetical for a bit, and see where it leads us.

I find myself capable of creating a living being. It has intelligence, a singular personality, and a sense of its own identity. As its creator, I have one desire of it, that it respect and love me for giving it life.

Now I have an important choice to make. I could, as the creator, infuse a love for me into my creature, or I could give it a freedom to choose. But there is a downside to each choice. With the former, can I truly call a mindless devotion that I have programmed into it love for me? No, I cannot, and that would end up being unfulfilling to me. With the latter, the creature could choose against me, and I would have not even a synthetic love from it. Ahh, but if it choose for me, I have the gift of the one thing I couldn’t create on my own, an honest love of another being.

As the architect of my local universe, I can make anything I wish, but the only thing I cannot fashion of my own will is the freely granted love of another. So important is this desire to me, that I allow the beings of my creation the option to choose to hate, despise, dismiss, or even disbelieve in me. That allowance includes the freedom to choose evil for selfish personal reasons. Sadly, many do, and much evil is committed, often ascribing the motive or justification to me, as a means of deflecting blame.

But there’s more. Those who disdain me fail to realize that my love for them is a substantial part of their very existence, that they live, move and breath through the motive force granted by me. To reject me makes them like a car engine running on kerosene. It functions, but not as I designed it; misfiring, underpowered, inefficient.

I could fix it. I could change everything, correct every bad decision, clean up every mistake or selfish action. Surely they would love me then? Hmm, that would end up being no different than having the love built-in to start with, it would be artificial and false. /illustration

A weak analogy, I know. But from God’s eyes, we are His creation, made for the purpose of loving Him, but not forced to. Hasn’t He a right to expect His creation to serve Him? He won’t offer eternity at His home to those who don’t want to be there. But He has made the way known. All it takes, all it ever takes for anyone, is to surrender the selfish and accept your true condition, a creation made to serve the Creator. You’ll never know how many things in life will make sense once that happens.

But how can we know an invisible God? I once posted the following question, and got no response: Can Hamlet know Shakespeare? He can, only if Shakespeare writes himself as a part into the story. Well God has done exactly that.

CyberCipher on January 28, 2007 at 2:06 AM

Rev 13:8 states that Jesus was the “Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world”

I believe this demonstrates that God is omniscient, knew about man’s fall before it happened and put in place a plan for salvation before the creation of the world.

Cipher, naliaka, william and other contributors, thanks for the great post.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
CyberCipher on January 28, 2007 at 2:06 AM

Haven’t seen much to complain about. :D
It’s just my suspicion, so take it for what it’s worth, but I get the feeling that the conversation in Genesis was spelled out really for our benefit, the future generations, as a teaching exercise, to let us in on why Adam and Eve had to go; and too, that it wasn’t a decision made in fury or rage, but in profound sadness for the loss of the intimacy and peace they’d all shared together. I think every now and then a solid fire and brimstone sermon can wake us up, and get us rethinking our priorities, but just once in a while – there’s a lot more to God than just that -especially since He really doesn’t want to toss us into the fire. He wants us together with Him; Jesus went through Hell, literally, to complete that sacrifice for us. He prepared the way, it is up to the individual to choose it.
Have a good one, for you, and all the posters who we hope got some encouragement out of the debate.

You’re too late. Yesterday’s thread (posted by Bryan) where some of us had a lively discussion regarding the origins, merits, and possibly uses of and for “depravity” has already been archived.

Of course, if you’ll stick around, I am fairly certain that AllahPundit would be glad to accommodate you and start a new thread dealing with that sort of thing. You have to admit that AP is not “shy” about tossing the “raw meat” out there for the consumption of the readership.

CyberCipher on January 27, 2007 at 10:14 PM

Lighten up. Unless you have been stationed in Japan, you wouldn’t get the humor.

Adam and Eve weren’t sent away because God was angry at them; He knew what was going to happen. They were sent away because they were then sinful and thus unable to approach God without being destroyed. Evil cannot be near God.

naliaka on January 28, 2007 at 12:36 AM

This may very well be correct. When I read that passage in Genesis, I came to a different conclusion, however. Take careful note that after Adam and Eve sinned, there was a “huddle” or “conference call” in heaven. The passage suggests a “meeting of minds” of sorts. Perhaps a meeting of “God’s council” would be a more accurate term. At some point in the meeting, it was pointed out that if Adam and Eve stayed in the garden of Eden, they would most likely eat of the tree of life and subsequently “live forever” (note that they had already eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil at that point). It was at THAT point that God declared that Adam and Eve must leave the garden of Eden. Although not explicitly stated, one can easily infer that God objected to the idea that Adam and Eve would live forever in their sinful state. In other words, the ONLY possibility for salvation (and for the restoration of mankind to God) was for Adam and Eve to leave. If Adam and Eve had stayed in the garden of Eden, they would have lived forever in a sinful state — always separated from God. Maybe this is a minor, technical point. But it doesn’t, in any way, diminish or sleight God’s intentions. We are agreed that God ONLY had good intentions for Adam and Eve. The punishments meted out to the two of them, including death itself, are the consequences of their disobedience. Not because God is vengeful, but because God is a righteous, holy, and just God.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Yeah. That’s ironic.

Still, there is that little problem of “what is in the heart” of the worshipper and does God want a pure, sincere love and devotion, or does he want one from a place of dread, fear, and terror because of the fear of God’s limitless power, His ability to do whatever He wants, whenever He wants? Or does God actually hear and respond to the deep, sincere Love that non-Christians hold in their hearts for God, and their worship that they offer to God 24/7 from the most sincere place, with honesty and child like surrender and innocence?
William2006 on January 27, 2007 at 8:40 PM

William,
You have touched on an essential contrast of the Old Testament versus the New Testament. C.S.Lewis referred to the Old Testament being a recounting of God having to spend quite a bit of time pounding into the thick skulls of the Hebrews. That would be people obeying God’s Word because of fear. The big miracles – the cloud and fire descending on Mt Sinai, scaring the daylights out of the Hebrews – to the point where they said to Moses, “You talk to Him!” However, the Old Testament is also a long laundry list of backsliding, people going right back to their bad habits as soon as the pressure is lifted and they begin to forget.
You are absolutely right, God desires true love. Yes, “The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.” But fear is a richer word and concept than just being scared. It includes respect and awe, much more positive ideas. The New Testament is the recounting of grace, an in-dwelling of God’s spirit in the individual – being transformed from the inside out. Again, the huge difference between being forced and being willing. People who have this sense inside, you will find that they will at some point in their lives declare themselves in some way to be Christian, followers of the Christ, renouncing all other gods and idols.
To clarify, it wasn’t that God was angry – that He was pissed at Adam and Eve for sinning and tossed them out because He was furious and holds a grudge against all mankind for it. No. There is some things we don’t understand. One of these things is God’s nature, which is unfathomable by our merger intellects, but in all ways is perfectly good. Adam and Eve weren’t sent away because God was angry at them; He knew what was going to happen. They were sent away because they were then sinful and thus unable to approach God without being destroyed. Evil cannot be near God. It is evidently a fundamental truth that supports the entire universe. A barrier was established between God and man in order to protect us from total destruction. Since God wants us to be close to Him, He has provided a means by which we can be reunited with Him, that the sin can be removed from us so that we can approach Him. This entire planet of people is looking for that sure salvation, and it is offered freely to everyone and is accepted by anyone who recognizes it.
We cannot be too tangled up in what God will do with people who haven’t heard the Word, in fact the Bible states that God will deal with them in a fitting manner, people who live with God’s law written in their hearts will be considered righteous. The command to go out and preach the Word does mean there are plenty of people who have no hope and are living in spiritual darkness, burdened with decrees and duties that take up their time and energy, but won’t save them. At the same time, plenty of people who cry “Lord! Lord! Didn’t I preach and prophesize in your name?” will be told,”Get away from me, I do not know you.”
One of the things, among many, that got Jesus in hot water with the establishment elites was his total lack of tolerance for hypocrites. So, there are indeed some things that God, who is famous for His patience in waiting for us, has no patience for. He’s got a simple policy, walk the talk.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of atheism, I shall fear no snarkiness — ’cause William says that my God is the pushiest, meanest, nastiest false deity in the valley.

(Okay, so I’ll keep my day job.)

William

William2006 on January 27, 2007 at 8:40 PM

Well William, I seem to be taking more liberties here. You are raising specific questions that you your self can find the answer to. I would like to answer your questions but instead I’m recommending the Master himself. You obviously have knowlege of the Bible so I am assumming you either own one or have access to one. So if you go to the Book of Matthew chapter 5 you will find the Sermon on the Mount. These are the only things you need, to know the heart of Jesus. So if your know his heart and it matches yours then thats it you are saved period. All the rest is window dressing and dogma and man made religion. If its good enough for Jesus its good enough for me. Good Luck and God Bless!

Religious debates are pointless, especially with friends. No one’s going to persuade anyone, so why bother?
Allahpundit on January 26, 2007 at 11:06 PM

What an interesting insight, “no one’s going to persuade anyone, so why bother?” Most debates start out that way, but the reasonble person would never say never. The church is full of “nevers”.

Being an atheist I wonder AP if you could point me in the direction of what atheists have added to society? In particular, what hospitals, out-reach programs, schools, have been built by the atheists? I do not know many, and would like to not ever short change their contributions to American culture. This is not a trick question, I have been searching, I am beginning to assume that those things are not not important.
Thanks, AP.

But given Bryan’s beliefs I kind of doubt he was seen around BC street too awfully much and certainly never at Whisper alley. Saw your other post about the Mercury club. Knowing chuckle ;)

Bradky on January 27, 2007 at 9:58 PM

You’re too late. Yesterday’s thread (posted by Bryan) where some of us had a lively discussion regarding the origins, merits, and possibly uses of and for “depravity” has already been archived.

Of course, if you’ll stick around, I am fairly certain that AllahPundit would be glad to accommodate you and start a new thread dealing with that sort of thing. You have to admit that AP is not “shy” about tossing the “raw meat” out there for the consumption of the readership.

Instead of trying to quote scriptures or try to dance around this problem, the best answer would have been, and is, I see your point. You are right and I do not have an answer, nor do I understand it myself.”

If we are talking about the Christianity, it is logical to quote the scriptures as this is where we get our beliefs. I believe I directly answered your questions and you rejected the answers, as you are free to do.

I can not admit you are right because I respectfully disagree with you. You keep bringing up the mantra that God can not be harsh (holy and just are more correct terms) and loving at the same time. I suggest that these two are easily reconciled if you read the entire bible as a whole and not pick and chose the parts you want.

If Bryan was stationed at Kadena, I can only imagine. :P

Kid from Brooklyn on January 26, 2007 at 11:09 PM

Sounds like you might have stomped those grounds at one time or another? But given Bryan’s beliefs I kind of doubt he was seen around BC street too awfully much and certainly never at Whisper alley. Saw your other post about the Mercury club. Knowing chuckle ;)

It is also “those who procreate more often pass on their genes more often than those who procreate less often, or not at all.”

So what, Evolutionists?

William

The problem with Atheism is by what standard or rules do they live by? What is the criteria for right and wrong? It would seem that each individual would have a different concept of the acceptable boundries, so there is no one standard code by which to live.

DING! naliakea wins today’s grand prize (IMHO).

I perpetually run into precisely THIS difficulty with the position held by the atheists. Case in point:
There is an card carrying member of the ACLU that works in my office. Although his family’s heritage is that of New York/Hebrew stock, he has renounced God, openly claims to be atheist, and he is rather hostile in his demeanor when he is in the vicinity of Christians (or other “people of faith”). He is well educated (Ph.D. Ohio State), snooty, and stereotypical of the condescending liberal that we all know and love. He LOVES to deride me about 1) my “superstitious” beliefs, and 2) the hypocracy of the Christian “leadership”, e.g. citing his disdain for the televangelists. He is a rabid believer in Darwinism and all things “science.”

I am only human. One day I finally got fed up with his nasty comments and his snarky attitude. I approached him and told him that “There is no one here in the office that should be MORE delighted that I am a Christian than YOU pal.” He looked at me in a quizzical fashion. “What do you mean?” he said. I asked him “Do you still believe in Darwinism.” He said “Yes.” I said “Well then, you should know that the love of Jesus is the only thing that is keeping you alive right now.” He said “How’s that?” I reminded him about the Darwinian concepts of “natural selection” and “survival of the fittest.” He acknowledged his belief in those concepts. I said, “If for one minute I believed that there is no God,and that our entire existence had nothing more to it than random chance and Darwinian evolution, I assure you that I would not hesitate to kill you at my earliest convenience, steal all of your worldly possessions, and perhaps even “have my way” with the surviving members of your family.” Of course, this made him very angry (a secondary emotion based on fear). He challenged my right to do something like that. I pointed out to him that I am MUCH bigger than him (several inches taller and probably out-weighing him by at least 60 pounds) and that I would have no difficulty subduing him at any time of my choosing. “THAT is the bottom line on that whole ‘survival of the fittest’ garbage for you.” I said. Of course, he immediately protested about how wrong and immoral that something like that would be. I countered with “There is no God,remember? Where’s your moral authority?” Before I left, I reassured him that I was only speaking hypothetically, and that I was only trying to point out to him where his atheism leads. Of course, he is significantly more polite to me now when we discuss politics and religion. And to this day, we still discuss all of those matters – minus the nastiness.

Of course, I’ll admit that it probably wasn’t the way Jesus would have handled the situation, but nevertheless, I am pleased with the outcome. We are now able to communicate with each other and show mutual respect for each other. And that is way better than where we started, which was akin to the whole thing that started this thread, viz.

Because their arguments are intellectually weak and intolerant. Where they once were just condescending, they are now hostile and vaguely hysterical.

Another problem is that God is a jealous God who wants to be worshiped. Anyone who does not worship God is not making God happy, hence atheists are likely to be in deep doo doo when they die.

Problem with atheists is that if they are wrong, then they can’t fix it once their are dead. It’s all over but the screaming, the weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Best thing to do is to submit to the Christian concept, but then the person is not doing so form their heart. How does God feel about worship out of fear rather than from the heart, from a point of deep, sublime, sincere devotion?

So, people can play it safe and follow Christianity because if they don’t they will go to hell, or they can live life as they see the need based on their understanding, growth, and so on, and take their chances.

Still, there is that little problem of “what is in the heart” of the worshipper and does God want a pure, sincere love and devotion, or does he want one from a place of dread, fear, and terror because of the fear of God’s limitless power, His ability to do whatever He wants, whenever He wants? Or does God actually hear and respond to the deep, sincere Love that non-Christians hold in their hearts for God, and their worship that they offer to God 24/7 from the most sincere place, with honesty and child like surrender and innocence?

William

The comments are addeing up, and many of them, somewhat to my surprise, are responses to my comments.

As they are becoming numerous, and containt a lot to deal with, I will comment in general to several, and in particular to a few.

1) “William, may I ask if you are an atheist? – jman on January 27, 2007 at 3:12 PM

“jman,”

Yes, you may ask.

2) “You posts tend to focus on the fault you find in Christianity, but if you are an Atheist I would be interested in knowing why what you believe is true.”

The focus I emphasized is the assumption that everyone is, by default, condemned to hell, and the follow up contradiction that God is a loving, merciful God who cares about us.

What is the answer to that condemned to hell as default? That God the Father sent his only begotten son to suffer and die for our sins, and only by believing in Jesus, and accepting him as our Lord and Savior, can we be saved and not end up in eternal damnation to the suffering and separation from God which is hell.

Instead of trying to quote scriptures or try to dance around this problem, the best answer would have been, and is, I see your point. You are right and I do not have an answer, nor do I understand it myself.”

That point regarding God condemning everyone to hell by default upon birth carries over into those who are not Christians but who have a great deal of love, devotion, and dedication to God. Christians claim that they are damned to hell, for, no matter what, they did not accept Jesus as their Savior and therefore they lose. That is both cruel and a sick joke.

Then some here try to reach into unseen territory and cliam that we don’t know what is inside a child’s heart or a grown up who believes in God but is not a Christian and has not claimed Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior, mainly due to accident of birth and events that occured during their lives which led those people to the relationship they have with God, a relationship which Christians discount as non-existent because those people are just plain wrong, hence, they are all going to hell, no matter how much they Love the Lord, no matter how much they worship God, no matter how devoted they are. Too bad for them.

“I’m not being judgemental, but am sincerely interested in how people can substantiate that there is no god.” — jman on January 27, 2007 at 3:12 PM

jman,

Perhaps you are not being judgemental, but I will say that many people, Christians, left wingers, fifth column hate America obsessed, liberals, secular progressives, and so on, often begin their talk with “I am not being judgemental” and then they proceed to be … judgemental.

To get back to your question, “are you an atheist?”

No, I am not an atheist.

3) “With all due respect William, you sound like a lot of disgruntled former Catholics I know. Sorry If you had a bad experience at one point. I don’t know.
Just a guess.

Buck Turgidson on January 27, 2007 at 5:37 PM”

Buck,

Sorry to disappoint you. I am not a disgruntled Catholic and I did not have bad experiences to speak of in my life regarding spirituality, religion, and so on.

The subject I raised on this thread is an important one and it is something that those who consider themselves to be “Christians” could benefit from understanding. The dogma is that all have sinned, even babies, and that all are going to hell, yet Christians who propagate this concept expect people to see God as nice, loveable, caring, merciful, etc. The fact that Christians claim that Jesus was sent to suffer and die for our sins and hence if we accept him as our Personal Savior and are washed in the Blood of his sacrifice, then we will be saved and not go to hell.

Don’t you see how that can be a tough sell? God created everything and then, when Adam and Eve, after being tempted, disobey, and God is so pissed off at them that he banishes them from the Garden of Eden, from Paradise, then he also curses them with death, AND He curses all of the rest of humanity, and animals, and everything with not only death, but with eternal damnation.

William

One of the purposes of the Ten Commandments, apart from setting the foundation for a civil society, was to establish a conscience in people. To establish the concepts of right and wrong.

naliaka on January 27, 2007 at 6:16 PM

I completely agree with nalika on this, but I’d like to suggest one more thing about the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses that many people have not considered.

The Law not only clearly deliniates the WHAT of good and evil (what is right? and what is wrong?) It also clearly “draws a line in the sand” that segregates ALL humans into one of two camps. The Law of Moses clearly identifies every single human that has ever existed (before, then, after, or now) as a sinner. How do I know this? Because NO ONE can say that they have kept ALL of the Law ALL of their life in ALL situations and circumstances. The Law CLEARLY identifies WHO we are. We are sinners. There has only been ONE exception to this in ALL of human history. Jesus was the only human EVER to have lived a sinless life. So the Law clearly identifies WHO Jesus is. He is NOT like the rest of us. He is not a sinner. The camp of Jesus is a lonely camp. He is the only member.

The only way you are supposed to prevent ending up in hell is to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, a guy who, if he lived at all, lived 2000 years ago, who we never met, who has no direct interaction with us, as we interact with our friends, family, coworkers, etc., and who we only know about by hearsay, and by reading a scripture.

William, you repeat yourself. You have already made the objection that God has not “shown up” or “manifest” Himself in a real or tangible way for people in our present age. You did so in your earlier post (before this one). I can see that you simply INSIST on a response. I am NOT necessarily the best one here to give you one (a response), but I’ll give it a shot.

Others here have already pointed out that God DID show up in the person of Jesus of Nazerath some 2000 years ago. You seem to have issues that Jesus hasn’t “appeared” to you personally (or to your friends) in more contemporary times. And somehow, you feel that this is unfair. Jesus Himself pointed to the exact same argument when he told the parable about the poor man (named Lazerus) that died and went to be “in the bosom of Abraham.” The rich man in the story, who ended up in hell, appealed to have “messengers” sent back to the temporal world to warn his family and friends about the awfullness of hell. Jesus says that the response that the rich man got was that his family and friends that were still alive had the words of Moses and the other prophets, so they have no excuse at all. Apparently, God does not feel obligated to fulfill YOUR whims to have Him visit you. He has already made the judgement call that the words of Moses, the prophets, and of Jesus are sufficient for you.

Jesus said that it is a wicked generation that requires a sign in order to believe in God. Let me remind you that not only did Jesus perform MANY miracles, but the Old Testament prophets (like Moses) presided over some real doozies (like the plagues on Egypt). Remarkably, virtually each and every time this sort of thing happened, the vast majority of the people clamored for more, more, more. And when they didn’t get what they wanted, they turned away from God.

I can only conclude a few things:

First of all, you seem to VASTLY underestimate the fickleness of human nature. No matter how many miracles God performs, it’s never enough. People ALWAYS clamor for more. If God responded to all of the demands, He’d turn Himself into a Barnum and Bailey side-show. I, for one, sure wouldn’t respect Him if He did that.

Second, you clearly place your will and your agenda ABOVE God’s will and God’s agenda. This is the oldest human sin in existence. It the same sin committed by Adam and Eve. When Jesus arrived on the scene, He had God’s agenda in mind. He told His followers over-and-over again that He was not there to pander to their every whim. He was there to go about the business of completing God’s work of salvation. He was following God’s agenda, not His disciples’ agenda, and not even His own agenda. He expects all of the rest of us to do exactly the same, viz. to seek the truth, discover God’s agenda, and then faithfully conform to God’s agenda through our obedience. This theme runs throughout historical accounts recorded the Bible, over-and-over again.

Third, you seem to think that God is somehow obligated to fulfill you agenda. I assure you that He is not. He OWNS you and me. We are His property. He created us. His rights to us VASTLY outstrip and overshadow any “demands” that you or I might make of Him. (The clay does not say to the potter “Why did you make me this way?”) Perhaps you have “issues” with the nature of God. Admittedly, He DOES seem to be the reclusive, quiet type. I can only speculate that this has something to do with the fall of man (the sinful human condition), and the fact that God is a righteous and holy God. God tells Moses that no man could bear to see the face of God and live to tell about it. THAT’s how righteous and holy He is.

In summary, I think that you see the glass as half-empty. I am the opposite and I see the glass as half full. Judging by my experiences in life, and the caliber of the vast majority of the human beings that I must work with and live around from day-to-day, I am both astonished and overwhelmingly delighted that Jesus showed-up 2000 years ago AT ALL. Only a God of limitless Love could carry out the work of salvation that Jesus did 2000 years ago.