Sorry. You inserted yourself into a conversation between us and the resident atheist. I mistook you for one.

PRCalDude on January 23, 2007 at 12:00 PM

No problemo. Easy to get confused on who said what, why, when. I applaud you on your civility!

Let’s look at presuppositions (is this a word? talk about redundant) shall we? I am a fervent believer in God. My point, which I thought was rather simple, apparently not, is that faith is a concept that unhinges on uncertainty.

honora on January 23, 2007 at 10:15 AM

Sorry. You inserted yourself into a conversation between us and the resident atheist. I mistook you for one.

When someone discovers proof that the Earth, the sun, the galaxy, all of mankind, and the entire universe were all created by accident or chance … let me know.

Last I checked, atheism is also unprovable.

Gregor on January 22, 2007 at 5:55 PM

See above comments.

And don’t be cute, you’re smarter than that. If you are looking at this strictly from a logic POV, the only logical conclusion is agnostic–not knowable.

honora,

What? Are we supposed to be deterred somehow or intimidated by your caustic remarks? As far as I’m concerned, your snooty, condescending sarcasm only betrays your innate feelings of inadequacy. Perhaps rightly so.

Speaking of “beliefs,” it painfully obvious to me that you haven’t been following astronomy and physics for the past ten years, HAVE YOU? If you think belief in God is a stretch, try “dark matter.” Of course, THAT wasn’t meta-physical ENOUGH — so now the astronomers have their “dark energy” to go with it. Then again, there’s that whole “string theory” thing. Oh yeah, and BTW, all of this stuff is completely unverifiable by ANY scientific experiment known to man. Nevertheless, there a lot of university professors making a lucrative living off of this kinda’ stuff. Next thing ya’ know, they’ll be on television asking little old ladies to send their money in before the Great Cosmic Force “calls them home.” (Surprise, surprise –there are snake-oil-salesmen in the halls of our so-called scientific institutions, as well as in the religious establishment.) And, if the physicists weren’t bad enough, we got the biologists with their whole Darwinian cult thing goin’ on. But mercifully (for the readers), I’ll let go of it here.

In stark contrast, at least the vast majority of the theologians (and their followers) don’t try to pass-off their “beliefs” (”faith” is a more accurate term) as “science.” They should get points for honesty on that count alone. (BTW, that’s WAY more honest than YOU are, honora, with the people that post comments here on the HotAir web-site).

Oh, and BTW, I’ve noticed that there are some other well informed individuals lurking here at HotAir that can tell you ALL about the scientific facts that DO, at the very least, suggest that there are other forces at work in the universe besides random chance — not that you’d listen, of course. If there’s one thing we can ALL be certain about, it is that a liberal’s mind is closed to the facts (scientific or otherwise).

But it is well with my soul, honora. You just keep-on believing in that “cold fusion”, okay?

CyberCipher on January 22, 2007 at 6:42 PM

Alrighty then….I’m delighted you are “well with your soul”. You might want to consider a little work on your mind….

Here’s another prime example of the atheists’ condescension toward Christians. She acts as if we believe in a vacuum, as if there is no external evidence for the faith we profess. Do yourself a favor, examine your own presuppositions to determine where your truth comes from before you deride ours. Do yourself another favor: listen to the Bahnsen-Stein debate, if you’re brave enough.

PRCalDude on January 22, 2007 at 5:02 PM

Let’s look at presuppositions (is this a word? talk about redundant) shall we? I am a fervent believer in God. My point, which I thought was rather simple, apparently not, is that faith is a concept that unhinges on uncertainty.

Exit question: If many Muslims incorrectly think that God wants them to suicide bomb people, is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps your own conception of God might be flawed? Like on the basic premise that he exists at all? That’s where I started pondering in early 2005, and I ended up in Atheism Land. Maybe you will too. Just sayin’.

Enrique on January 22, 2007 at 7:07 PM

There is no equivalency between Muslim belief in killing all non-believers-infidels, and non-Muslims believing in God.

Muslims believe that Allah commands them to kill infidels and gain heavenly reward if killed in war against nonbelievers.

Enrique,

Your attempt to dissect whoever you are addressing in that quote is rather strange. Are you attempting to read their mind, or are you attempting to tell them what THEY think and believe?

For example this piece “perhaps your own conception of God might be flawed?” What is the purpose of that statement? Are you attempting to attack the person you are addressing in a round about way, or are you merely projecting your personal conflicts with your own belief or disbelief in God?

“The basic premise that he exists at all?” That is for each and every individual to arrive at on their own, not for someone else to tell you what to think or not to think.

Your comments on this pace betray a deep devotion and desire to resolve your conflicts about your own concept of God and His existence. That speaks volumes.

It is quite likely that you possess a deep potential for deep devotion to God and you are at this time undergoing a sincere search, albeit experiencing, confusion about this.

I wish you well in your journey, in your search for Truth.

William

Exit question: If many Muslims incorrectly think that God wants them to suicide bomb people, is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps your own conception of God might be flawed? Like on the basic premise that he exists at all? That’s where I started pondering in early 2005, and I ended up in Atheism Land. Maybe you will too. Just sayin’.

Enrique on January 22, 2007 at 7:07 PM

I’m so glad you decided to ponder in 2005 and came up with the greatest revelation of all time – I guess that means books should be written about your discovery. You are the man!! You have solved the MYSTERY, dude.

Seriously, I hope you aren’t still smoking whatever it was you were smoking back in 2005 – it can’t possibly be good.

Free markets from now on, “kids”, as we are lovingly referred to by our friend honora.

Exit question: If many Muslims incorrectly think that God wants them to suicide bomb people, is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps your own conception of God might be flawed? Like on the basic premise that he exists at all? That’s where I started pondering in early 2005, and I ended up in Atheism Land. Maybe you will too. Just sayin’.

Enrique on January 22, 2007 at 7:07 PM

So if someone has a “flawed thought” than others may have a flawed thought? Well yeah, if you have a flawed thought than others on this blog may have a flawed thought. If one scientist has a flawed thought, than others may have also. It does not mean the two are connected. One thing is for sure, your logic is flawed. If I think that suicide bombing is wrong from a Christian point of view, and you think it is wrong are we both flawed or correct? That is one way you determine the correct path, with discernment. You think building hospitals and schools are wrong (or at least atheists do not think them worthy to build), I think they are right to build…who has flawed thinking now? If you do think they are worthy, show me some examples of atheist built schools or hospitals (you have several hundred years of examples).
If there are none, can I assume your thinking is flawed?

Exit question: If many Muslims incorrectly think that God wants them to suicide bomb people, is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps your own conception of God might be flawed? Like on the basic premise that he exists at all? That’s where I started pondering in early 2005, and I ended up in Atheism Land. Maybe you will too. Just sayin’.

Enrique on January 22, 2007 at 7:07 PM

A fair question. In other words, how do we know that the Bible describes God accurately? There is no short answer to this, but I think I could direct you to the right resources, if you’re truely interested.

If many Muslims incorrectly think that God wants them to suicide bomb people, is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps your own conception of God might be flawed?

Enrique on January 22, 2007 at 7:07 PM

If many scientists are routinely having to correct earlier incorrect theories on things as simple as what causes cancer and what is good for you, is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps your own conception of the origins of the world might be flawed?

I feel that the conservative movement in the U.S. is damaged by this unhealthy attachment to God….
So that’s why I keep bringing it up. My way of trying to remind conservatives what’s important – capitalism and limited government.

Enrique on January 22, 2007 at 7:07 PM

Funny thing, and all this time I’ve been worried that many Christians have an unhealthy attachment to capitalism.

Speaking of appeasing something that is DECIDEDLY absent, there’s that whole ‘limited government’ thing. Are you SURE that you can prove that it exists (anywhere in the universe)?

How about we compromise? I’ll let you worship conservatism, and I’ll worship the one true God — and make no mistake, you may call yourself an atheist, but conservatism is nevertheless your god. We ALL have SOMETHING that we put first in our lives–whether we admit it, or not.

Frankly I’m going to wait and see. D’Souza has been quite smart and on point in the past. I’m going to at least do him the courtesy of judging him on his own words and not an NYT abridgment of them.

see-dubya on January 22, 2007 at 1:07 PM

Amen!! I have read all of Dinesh’s books and the man is a textbook conservative and American. I would read his book before assuming what others have said is true. I plan on picking up my copy asap.

is it me or does Enrique find a way to insert “there is no God” into every debate regardless of the subject?

I’ll cop to that. I feel that the conservative movement in the U.S. is damaged by this unhealthy attachment to God. I think we need to move past it. Let’s work on the things we know for sure are true, i.e., free markets for free people, etc. Let’s get over trying to appease this absentee creator.

So that’s why I keep bringing it up. My way of trying to remind conservatives what’s important – capitalism and limited government.

And yeah, I’m an ass. But at least I try to word things in a clever manner – try getting that from Michael Newdow.

Exit question: If many Muslims incorrectly think that God wants them to suicide bomb people, is it that much of a stretch to think that perhaps your own conception of God might be flawed? Like on the basic premise that he exists at all? That’s where I started pondering in early 2005, and I ended up in Atheism Land. Maybe you will too. Just sayin’.

What? Are we supposed to be deterred somehow or intimidated by your caustic remarks? As far as I’m concerned, your snooty, condescending sarcasm only betrays your innate feelings of inadequacy. Perhaps rightly so.

Speaking of “beliefs,” it painfully obvious to me that you haven’t been following astronomy and physics for the past ten years, HAVE YOU? If you think belief in God is a stretch, try “dark matter.” Of course, THAT wasn’t meta-physical ENOUGH — so now the astronomers have their “dark energy” to go with it. Then again, there’s that whole “string theory” thing. Oh yeah, and BTW, all of this stuff is completely unverifiable by ANY scientific experiment known to man. Nevertheless, there a lot of university professors making a lucrative living off of this kinda’ stuff. Next thing ya’ know, they’ll be on television asking little old ladies to send their money in before the Great Cosmic Force “calls them home.” (Surprise, surprise –there are snake-oil-salesmen in the halls of our so-called scientific institutions, as well as in the religious establishment.) And, if the physicists weren’t bad enough, we got the biologists with their whole Darwinian cult thing goin’ on. But mercifully (for the readers), I’ll let go of it here.

In stark contrast, at least the vast majority of the theologians (and their followers) don’t try to pass-off their “beliefs” (“faith” is a more accurate term) as “science.” They should get points for honesty on that count alone. (BTW, that’s WAY more honest than YOU are, honora, with the people that post comments here on the HotAir web-site).

Oh, and BTW, I’ve noticed that there are some other well informed individuals lurking here at HotAir that can tell you ALL about the scientific facts that DO, at the very least, suggest that there are other forces at work in the universe besides random chance — not that you’d listen, of course. If there’s one thing we can ALL be certain about, it is that a liberal’s mind is closed to the facts (scientific or otherwise).

But it is well with my soul, honora. You just keep-on believing in that “cold fusion”, okay?

When someone discovers proof that the Earth, the sun, the galaxy, all of mankind, and the entire universe were all created by accident or chance … let me know.

Last I checked, atheism is also unprovable.

Gregor on January 22, 2007 at 5:55 PM

So being an atheist requires one to have “faith” in something that is “fundamentally unprovable”?

But…but…but…

Here’s the thing kids: part of the whole God schtick is the idea that it is fundamentally unprovable.

honora on January 22, 2007 at 4:33 PM

When someone discovers proof that the Earth, the sun, the galaxy, all of mankind, and the entire universe were all created by accident or chance … let me know.

Last I checked, atheism is also unprovable.

Oh God, no God, tomato, tomahto. Here’s the thing kids: part of the whole God schtick is the idea that it is fundamentally unprovable. Were it provable, there would be no need for faith. No faith, no religion.

Why does the Nicene creed begin: “I believe in God?” Not worship or love, but believe.

We’ll talk about the concept of hope next time…..

;^)

honora on January 22, 2007 at 4:33 PM

Here’s another prime example of the atheists’ condescension toward Christians. She acts as if we believe in a vacuum, as if there is no external evidence for the faith we profess. Do yourself a favor, examine your own presuppositions to determine where your truth comes from before you deride ours. Do yourself another favor: listen to the Bahnsen-Stein debate, if you’re brave enough.

Why does the Nicene creed begin: “I believe in God?” Not worship or love, but believe.

We’ll talk about the concept of hope next time…..

;^)

In case it wasn’t clear, I agree with you 100%. The first line was not directed at you.

In order for this to work, wouldn’t it require us to convert to muslims? How can conservative muslims “join forces” with infidels?

Rick on January 22, 2007 at 4:14 PM

This is a great example of the fundamental lack of understanding of Islam.

In Islam – as guided by the Qur’an – it is forbidden to “join forces” with “non-believers.”

There are far too many who fail to grasp this basic concept. Islam demands that Muslims refused to accept us, except for the purpose of slavery and collecting taxes.

This is not just a concept of “radical Islam.” It’s the QUR’AN! The words of their prophet!

And, most important of all, conservative religious believers in America should join forces with conservative religious believers in the Islamic world to combat their common enemy: the cultural left.

In order for this to work, wouldn’t it require us to convert to muslims? How can conservative muslims “join forces” with infidels? I realize that I’m somewhat exaggerating this (he does appear to differentiate between “radical” and “conservative” muslims, but I think the line is somewhat blurry nowadays).

I have not read his book, so I’ll reserve my judgment (but it does seem like a ridiculous notion

is it me or does Enrique find a way to insert “there is no God” into every debate regardless of the subject?

EnochCain on January 22, 2007 at 1:59 PM

Those who talk about God like Enrique did are actually quite devoted, sometimes more devoted than those who claim to believe in God, because they actually have God in their mind, even negatively.

Enrique’s post betrayed his words. God is a very real consideration for him, which is why he so vociferously complained about God and God’s existence, a clear indication that Enrique is a sincere seeker of Truth, wrestling with his confusion and personal inner conflict.

That devotion to God, albeit appearing “negative” in Enrique’s post, could one day transform Enrique into a strong advocate for devotion to God and His purpose, and by his example, lead others into the path of joy, love, and devotion as well.

Could we look back on this day at sometime in the future and say “I remember him, Enrique. He was angry and trashed the existence of God and those who believe in God as brain-dead religious believers” but now he is completely devoted to God?”

William

“Lan astaslem.”

I will not submit. I will not surrender