John Hawkins unloads on North American Union Truthers

posted at 7:25 pm on January 10, 2007 by Allahpundit

With polite, appropriate derision.

Yesterday, Jerome Corsi was prattling on about the North American Union again after Michael Medved deservedly spanked him for spreading conspiracy theories. While I don’t think Corsi is any more worthy of being taken seriously than those who think Jews rule the world or the “Truthers” who think President Bush is responsible for 9/11, I thought I would respond to him one last time…

That’s why conspiracy theorists love to try to bog people down in minutiae. Sure, lots of people saw planes hit the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, but let’s ignore that and talk about the temperature that steel melts at and the size of the hole in the building at the Pentagon. That’s how they trick people in missing the big picture. With the North American Union conspiracy theory, nobody ever talks about how this could practically be brought about when it would be almost universally opposed by the American people and would likely require a Constitutional Convention to pull off. Presumably, people like Jerome Corsi believe that there will just be a press conference one day announcing the changeover to an Amero and introducing us to our new Canadian and Mexican overlords—actually, these conspiracy theorists never really think that far ahead and they hope that you don’t either. They don’t want you to consider that there have been no leaks from the Bush Administration about this conspiracy even though thousands of people would have to know about it, that the mainstream media, which would love nothing better than to beat Bush over the head with something like this if it existed, isn’t discussing this issue, that the citizens of Canada and Mexico wouldn’t go along with a NAU — you could go on and on. The reality is that even if Bush were a diabolical mastermind who wanted to dump the dollar and form a North American Union, he doesn’t have the authority to do it without the consent of Congress and without it passing muster at the Supreme Court, neither of which would happen.

Among the high-profile proponents of the theory whom he calls out by name are Corsi, Lou Dobbs, Phyllis Schlafly, Joseph Farah, and … that’s it.

Forgetting anyone, Hawk? Any other outspoken, anti-illegal figures conspicuously omitted from that list?

Must be my imagination.


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Oh it’s on AP.
It. is. on.

billy on January 10, 2007 at 7:34 PM

Oh damn, I just finished arguing a variation of this topic on this thread today, and now you want to drag me back into it?

Al Pacino mode ON/
I keep trying to pull myself out and they just keep pulling me back in …

thirteen28 on January 10, 2007 at 7:35 PM

Mmmmmmmmmm…

Slublog on January 10, 2007 at 7:37 PM

Amazing how this crap assumes a life of its own.

flipflop on January 10, 2007 at 7:38 PM

It’s amazing how this nonsense takes on a life of its own.

flipflop on January 10, 2007 at 7:39 PM

Secure the border!

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we passed some sort of legislation last year, but didn’t fund it.

SECURE THE BORDER!!

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we want to pass this comprehensive migration reform bill first, besides, they are doing jobs Americans don’t want to.

SECURE THE BORDER!!!

Too late………..

PinkyBigglesworth on January 10, 2007 at 7:41 PM

What is disappointing is to see Laura Ingraham seemingly buy into this line of nonsense. She’s usually a lot more level headed.

billy on January 10, 2007 at 7:41 PM

Lou Dobbs? I never heard of his support for the theory. One more reason to hate that pecker.

Mark V. on January 10, 2007 at 8:07 PM

Although Bush is pro-amnesty and for softening restrictions on cross-border trade, Tanc is wrong to expicitly link him to this movement.

Tanc’s right about the fact that there are influential people in government and from industry who are favorable to a NA economic union.

Tanc is also right that we should not dismiss this as “nonsense” but that we should be vigilant and recognize that this is going on.

What’s wrong with that…?

CliffHanger on January 10, 2007 at 8:08 PM

What does Tancredo actually mean by us following a European Union model?

If he’s talking about a North American free trade zone with no tariffs or protectionism, then bring it on. That would be great.

sandberg on January 10, 2007 at 8:13 PM

The President never said, implied or suggested nor was there any evidence he wanted to import terrorists or destroy the WTC. Therefore believeing he was somehow involved is a conspiracy theory.

The President has said he is favor of a system to import more workers, in favor of an amnesty and weak on border enforcement. Therefore believeing he wants to protect the soverenigty of the U.S over Mexico is a conspiracy theory.

no specific “conspiracy” is needed to create this fabled N.A.U. it is the logical progression of the current path a decade or 2 from now

Resolute on January 10, 2007 at 8:17 PM

Maybe this is all just a Republican conspiracy to buy the Frank ’12 galaxies’ Chu voter bloc..

Reaps on January 10, 2007 at 8:27 PM

NAFTA is more effective a free trade zone than the EU without the political baggage. Everyone knows what a corrupt basket case Mexico is. Esepecially people like the Bushes who want to help change Mexico and have a freer attitude towards immigration.

To realise how idiotic it is, look at the people that believe in it. Flaming populists of the Right and the Left: Lou Dobbs and Tancredo in the US, Maude Barlow and Naomi Klein in Canada (Naomi wrote “No Logo” and went down to Argentina to film approvingly a “workers takeover” of a factory during the devaluation and Caudillo-isation a few years ago). We’re talking Chomsky level nutbars, so when you jump on their bandwagon you’ve completely lost it.

On immigration… the US should accept many more legal immigrants, taking in the talented and ambitious from around the world. The US should not be admitting millions of illegals as a Helot class to do menial labour in the underground economy. Only letting in menials knocks off the lower rungs of the economic ladder for US citizens: middle class kids get hired, even with weak credentials, while people who need to learn the habits and traits of the middle class aren’t worth the risk at legal salaries. Letting in many more talented people improves economic growth and the ability of the US to capitalise on its advantages.

Secure the border, stop the drug war, thoroughly vet immigrants and improve security on visitors. Reduce the illegitimate traffic across the border to improve the odds of detecting and stopping terrorist activity.

libertarianuberalles on January 10, 2007 at 9:09 PM

Secure the border, stop the drug war, thoroughly vet immigrants and improve security on visitors. Reduce the illegitimate traffic across the border to improve the odds of detecting and stopping terrorist activity.

libertarianuberalles on January 10, 2007 at 9:09 PM

The political class in power is publically against everything you just stated. I dont see how it is a “conspiracy” to point out the consequences of that.

Resolute on January 10, 2007 at 9:46 PM

George Herbert Walker Bush September 11, 1990: “Out of these troubled times, our�objective�a new world order�can emerge�Today, that new world is struggling to be born, a world quite different from the one we have known.”

George Herbert Walker Bush: �What is at stake is more than one small country, it is a big idea – a new world order…to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind…based on shared principles and the rule of law…The illumination of a thousand points of light…The winds of change are with us now.�

Speakup on January 10, 2007 at 10:47 PM

NWO! NWO! Hulk Hogan! Purple Haze!

Reaps on January 10, 2007 at 10:53 PM

Secure the border, stop the drug war, thoroughly vet immigrants and improve security on visitors. Reduce the illegitimate traffic across the border to improve the odds of detecting and stopping terrorist activity.

libertarianuberalles on January 10, 2007 at 9:09 PM
The political class in power is publically against everything you just stated. I dont see how it is a “conspiracy” to point out the consequences of that.

Resolute on January 10, 2007 at 9:46 PM

Absolutely right – not only is it not buying into a conspiracy theory, it is responsible to inquire about such things and to demand that government secure the borders.

Not to do so not only hurts us as a nation but disrespects the millions of legal immigrants who took the time to do things right and become productive citizens.

Say what you will – apologists will come out for both sides and try their best to convince you of their viewpoints.

In the end, the truth will win out. Are you willing to take a chance with your nation and your freedom that government always has your best interest in mind?

Keep in mind that government, like corporations, are ultimately run by businessmen – they will do what is good for business, the bottom line, and their pocketbook – no matter who it affects – you, me, and/or our children and so on.

Emmett J. on January 10, 2007 at 11:16 PM

“Truthers” say that they know the Real Truth about something that already happened. It isn’t possible to compare them to people worried about the NAU that hasn’t happened yet. It isn’t true, and it isn’t even false. Yet.

There isn’t going to be an Amero; there’s no need for one. We just build on the work of Pizza Patron, and establish easy conversion of USD-CAD-MXN. Or just let the USD be the defacto currency of the other two countries. As it is, I can’t imagine a business refusing our money.

After Fidel dies, do you suppose we’ll let Cuba into the NAU?

The Monster on January 10, 2007 at 11:33 PM

There isn’t going to be an Amero??? Oh really, oh just acceptance of the peso til the two monies start to confuse and then VOILA the Amero is suddenly the answer. I thought intelligent people were on this site…
How can you people ignore the obvious? The National Guard is sent fleeing from mexican troops on the border, Border patrol guards are being sent to prison for protecting the border. Cities in this country have become sanctuary cities for Illegals even if they commit a crime they are not prosecuted. George Bush refuses to secure the border…wha?? because he has family that are Mexican?? 20 million of them!! WOW that’s some big Thanksgiving dinner crowd for his family!!
How stupid can you people be? You are being indoctrinated slowly but surely….already you think it’s okay press one for English and two for spanish…, oh yeah that’s okay ,Health care etc,and Social security will be given to Mexicans per George Bush’s agreement with Fox, or didn’t you see the release of info via The Freedom of Information Act?? Hello…don’t remeber giving my okay on that…Hmmmm….Bankruptcys laws, credit systems set up to exclude midddle class Americans and push them further into the lower class. Mexico is not gonna be like us-we will become like them-The Elite rich folks and the poor peons-Middle class a thing of the past-already happening, haven’t you noticed? Corporate America abandoning the USA for foreign soil, US soil being leased to foreign countries for $$$, what the heck-everything is for sale …. You people are easily fooled….but then you are too busy working at a pace never before so you won’t notice that the light you see coming is an oncoming train.

Mellen on January 11, 2007 at 12:01 AM

Corporate America abandoning the USA for foreign soil, US soil being leased to foreign countries for $$$, what the heck-everything is for sale …. You people are easily fooled….but then you are too busy working at a pace never before so you won’t notice that the light you see coming is an oncoming train.

Mellen on January 11, 2007 at 12:01 AM

And it’s the light from a bullet train, at that!

Corporate should be thankful that the average viewer only comprehends (thanks to far below average school and higher educational systems) information in sound bytes – it makes it so much easier to guide the herd.

…………….and the band played on while the Titanic sank.

Emmett J. on January 11, 2007 at 12:22 AM

Exactly, and precisely why those pushing this new world order want only the uneducated and impoverished entering the country…try getting in if you are from another country and educated, and undersatnd how things are supposed to work……read Mac Johnsons column in human events about how it is not Open borders, not really, only a select group coming in………….


For those who are criminals, the border is open.

For those without degrees, the border is open.

For the violent, the dishonest, the unskilled, the destitute, the illiterate … the border is open.

And so they flow in by the millions each year—unfettered by the compunctions that keep out their moral betters, and undaunted by the need for unforged documents that keeps out their intellectual betters (for high tech businesses have too much at stake to play the “wink, wink, nudge, nudge” game with fake IDs and random Social Security numbers).

No, we do not have an open border. We have an anti-border.

Where a real border is designed to keep out the bad of the world and let flow in all its good, our anti-border keeps out the good and drowns us in the bad.

Where a real border is intended to politically define a distinct nation, our anti-border is intended to redefine that nation into something indistinct.

Where a real border is supposed to declare to the outsider and the would-be entrant, “Here begins a new set of laws,” our anti-border declares to them “Here begins whatever lawlessness you need to get by.”

With this selection process in place, we are supposed to believe that our economy is benefited?

It would be as if a world-class company suddenly stopped interviewing applicants for new positions and simply gave the jobs to whomever managed to break into the building the night before. While titans of industry brag that much of their success is attributable to picking good people and letting them work their talents in service of the common good (Jack Welch, I believe, once jokingly claimed to be the Chief Human Resources Officer of GE), our nation is pursuing the opposite approach.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18852

Mellen on January 11, 2007 at 12:41 AM

Mellen on January 11, 2007 at 12:41 AM

Exactly right!

Emmett J. on January 11, 2007 at 12:47 AM

I thought intelligent people were on this site…

Mellen on January 11, 2007 at 12:01 AM

There are, but not the overwhelming number there used to be. Ever since Allah opened up the registration to new participants a few months ago … we’ve been flooded by leftists and trolls.

Allah himself has shown himself to be more of a far left liberal than most would like to believe. Hawkins has proved himself to be an ass on this subject as well, completely ignoring the facts and repeating claims which have been answered and shown to be incorrect many times before.

Neither Allah or Hawkins has offered a single example of a false claim by Corsi or Tancredo. There are none. Instead, they mock those who have worked endless hours researching the facts, while knowing full well they are speaking out their ass.

It’s been explained many times exactly why none of this requires Congressional or citizen approval. It’s been explained in detail by many very well informed readers on this blog. Not ONCE has Allah or Hawkins pointed to a single incorrect factual claim. Never!

Many on this site have asked Allah repeatedly to argue the facts rather than simply post this nonsense. He’s never once responded. Will he now?

Many on this site have also suggested that Michelle does not agree with Allah on this. We have asked for Michelle to comment, knowing that she will not. She can’t. If she were to comment on this topic and voice her true opinion, she would then be classified as a “truther” or “nutjob” by Allah and the rest of the lazy asses who refuse to actually explain their positions based on facts.

I will ask again for Michelle to offer her opinion on this topic. Don’t hold your breath. She will avoid it, as she SHOULD avoid it. Her reputation is too important and she’s smart enough to realize that she’ll lose the respect of many who deserve no respect themselves.

I would ask this question of those who get off on commenting on something they know nothing about. What if Michelle Malkin were to tell you it was real? What then? Would she now be a loony? A nutjob? A “truther?” And if she DOESN’T believe it’s possible, then why has she completely refused to offer a single comment on the issue after months of discussion? Would you think she’d be the first to come out and say it’s ridiculous?

You people mock sitting U.S. Congressmen and prefer to believe they are complete wackos, rather than give it a split second of thought.

Still waiting for that poll Allah? What’s the hold up? Do you fear that you’ll discover that your readers are all nutjobs?

Come on, it couldn’t be worse than knowing that HotAir readers are 80% Christian, could it?

I’ve never seen a writer in my life who purposely mocks his readers so enthusiastically.

Gregor on January 11, 2007 at 12:52 AM

nobody ever talks about how this could practically be brought about when it would be almost universally opposed by the American people and would likely require a Constitutional Convention to pull off….

The current Mexican invasion is almost universally opposed by the American people. Raich and Kelo are almost universally opposed, and you’d think all three of those things would be unconstitutional. Yet the illegals keep coming, and the other two are law.

Anti-gun laws? Unconstitutional. Affirmative Action? Unconstitutional. McCain-Feingold? Unconstitutional. And yet.

*Sigh.*

Commenters here keep making two points: that it doesn’t have to be a secret conspiracy with a name and a handshake and a password in order to be happening; and that all you’d have to do to completely disarm us-who-worry is to refute our claims with facts (and we would meet you more than halfway; we’d be happy to).

…nobody ever talks about how this could practically be brought about…

Yeah. We do.

But AllahP just keeps linking to people who scoff.

You’re good, caballero; but not, in this case, convincing.

(And no, AP isn’t even close to being a far-left liberal. It just seems to me that he’s trying very hard to keep HA from looking like a ranting wingnut Truther-type place, and this thing has been labelled a conspiracy theory, which makes it sound nuts….)

kate q on January 11, 2007 at 1:01 AM

I agree with most of those posting here: The border is disappearing–fading away like the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland, slowly vanishing until only the smile remains

I’m not a “Truther”, partly because I know/knew people who were killed/almost killed BY AN AIRPLANE which hit the Pentagon, including a guy I went to high school with who was in the parking lot and heard AN AIRPLANE’S VERY LOUD JET ENGINES for an instant before everything blew up next to him

I don;t believe there is a Hidden Conspiracy to create some new monster–there doesn’t need to be, as several people have pointed out above. It is such a cliche, but we are the frog in the pot of water, not reacting quickly enough….but it’s a fair analogy, AP

I fear this issue will either tear the Republican Party apart, or keep it from uniting. Either way, Nancy & the Crats will gain

Janos Hunyadi on January 11, 2007 at 1:51 AM

Mellon writes: “There isn’t going to be an Amero???”

No, stupid, there won’t be one. It is not going to happen. *IF* there is to be a “north American currency,” it will be the DOLLAR, because OUR CURRENCY represents our economy and our economy is the strongest and largest in the world. The US Dollar is already the national currency of Panama, and for good reason. OUR economy guarantees THEIR economy’s existance.

Mellon also writes: “How can you people ignore the obvious?”

We’re not ignoring anything except the STUPIDITY from conspiracy wackjobs like you.

Do you have ANY idea of the consequences of a “North American Union” uniting Canada, Mexico, and the USA?

Here’s one: The economy of Canada WOULD BE DESTROYED. Canada is a PROTECTIONIST country, and union with the USA would SUCK THE LIFE OUT of their markets. WE would own them, lock, stock and barrel in less than 2 years. Their industries would go under because OUR companies would take over their markets in just about every arena because their existing laws that protect Canadian businesses from American take-over or market share capture would be null and void. Unemployment, in most part of what is today Canada, would exceed that of the Great Depression. The western provinces would experience an economic revival (for a while) because WE would have unfettered access to their natural resources, and we would then proceed to suck their oil and gas fields dry.

Mexico would fare only a little better. THEIR oil fields would become OUR oil fields.

As for us? The economic incentive for companies like Swift to hire “illegals” would EVAPORATE. The illegal alien economy would CEASE TO EXIST as the illegal aliens would no longer be “illegal” and watch them take their employers to the cleaners as they demand higher pay and benefits. Not just in America but in Mexico as well.

Neither the Canadians nor the Mexican are that stupid. And neither are most Americans. I exempt you, of course.

georgej on January 11, 2007 at 2:59 AM

Do you have ANY idea of the consequences of a “North American Union” uniting Canada, Mexico, and the USA?

I’m not proposing any such thing (the last thing we need is Canadian statism and Mexican corruption), but your economics are way off. You seem to think that Canada’s economic protectionism is helping their economy; it isn’t.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 3:18 AM

Whats with all of the insults?…I would expect to hear this type of stuff in the halls of a HS but not here where people are supposed to be having a reasonable debate.

EnochCain on January 11, 2007 at 3:22 AM

Corporate America abandoning the USA for foreign soil, US soil being leased to foreign countries for $$$, what the heck-everything is for sale

It’s called free market capitalism, and it’s why poor people in America typically have a better standard of living than middle class people in much of the rest of the world.

Economic protectionism is an easy sell, and it always hurts everybody.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 3:25 AM

Like everyone else here I actually have no real idea if our rapidly vanishing borders, the NAFTA superhighway, and the Amero are part of a conspiracy to create the NAU. I hope they aren’t and I’m willing to do my part to keep a healthy level of chatter going to hopefully ensure that nothing like the NAU ever happens.

Personally I suspect that the Republican’s poor showing on the border issue along with amnesty proposals probably did much more to cause the GOP to lose their majority last November than Iraq. I also suspect that the Democrats took power because of moderate DEMS running on strong anti illegal alien campaigns. 2008 will likely be very interesting if both parties lose their base support over the border.

Buzzy on January 11, 2007 at 4:32 AM

You people mock sitting U.S. Congressmen and prefer to believe they are complete wackos, rather than give it a split second of thought.

When the sitting U.S. Congressman in question is Tom Tancredo, you’re dang right I’ll mock.

With enthusiasm.

I prefer my anti-illegal immigration arguments to be made by people with enough sense to stay away from alarmist conspiracy theories.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 9:17 AM

Another ipse dixit anti Nau theory post, do you ever get tired of this Allah.

That’s how they trick people in missing the big picture. With the North American Union conspiracy theory, nobody ever talks about how this could practically be brought about when it would be almost universally opposed by the American people and would likely require a Constitutional Convention to pull off.

He makes a valid point. My counter would be to him and you Allah would be to post a timeline of the formation of the EU. It was not built in a single act of sweeping legislation was it? No it was formed after decades of little changes. Some people are just smart enough to recognize the NAU in its infancy.

Presumably, people like Jerome Corsi believe that there will just be a press conference one day announcing the changeover to an Amero and introducing us to our new Canadian and Mexican overlords—actually, these conspiracy theorists never really think that far ahead and they hope that you don’t either

Heh. I love the characterization. STRAWMAN!!! Has the Euro replaced the Pound? No. Will the “Amero” replace the U.S. dollar? No. What it will do is consolidate the currencies south of the U.S.. How many countries other than England Germany, and France are on the Euro? Yeah that answer doesn’t support Mr. Hawkins bluster. You remeber CAFTA right? Central America is next on the list to bring into this economic prosperity bonanza.

From the SPP:
Energy Ministers agreed to develop recommendations to further align and strengthen energy efficiency standards, identify gaps in the research and innovation chain for key technologies, and develop a trilateral legal instrument on energy science and technology collaboration.

Trilateral legal instrument? Why that sounds like an international treaty? It must be since the SPP in no way threatens U.S. sovereignty. So where is the Senate, I thought they handled this sort of thing? Hmmmm

The subject is worth debating. All the people that cal this a conspiracy theory do so because they think they can make people shutup. It is like the neocon version of the word racist meant to censor debate, via decree. I do not know why I even post this none of the folks [Allah, Medved] that call this a conspiracy would ever debate it openly. They are always trying to obfuscate and paint us as the tinfoil hat crowd for having legitimate questions that oddly enough are never addressed, hmmm. Oh well the Teamsters should be real happy about Chinese imports skipping the West Coast for Mexico to be transported into America via the NAFTA superhighway. Where are the Democrats to protect them?

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 10:05 AM

The subject is worth debating. All the people that cal this a conspiracy theory do so because they think they can make people shutup.

Where’s the debate? Every time someone expresses doubts about the NAU, they are told to ‘wake up,’ or mocked for their ‘blindness’ to ‘what’s really going on.’

Some debate.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 10:11 AM

Bush’s millions of illegals will assimilate when the dream of an American-type democracy in Iraq comes to fruition. The open borders problem is yet another impeachable Bush pipedream- NAU or not. Where is the pressure on Bush from the right?

Valiant on January 11, 2007 at 10:15 AM

Hi Georgej,
Stupid eh? Let’s talk in about 5 years shall we? Of course you will know Spanish by then of course………..
A conspiracy wackjob….??
FACT,
Millions have poured across the border, and they aren’t exactly the best and the brightest-(is that how you got in?)
The majority of Americans want the Border secured-It ain’t, or haven’t you noticed?
Yeah I’m a wacko like Tancredo and Buchanon, who just happened to be dead-on as to the consequences of open borders and no rational immigration policy.
As for free market capitalism Sandberg, all for it….now if only we could get that here in the US like China does! Hate it when that trickle down effect trickles into India, China and Mexico bypassing the good ole USA…….
Letting in millions of uneducated,impoverished,non-english speaking people is supposed to be good for the country???And hope you don’t mind paying for housing them and medical care for them while your own family goes begging,
Uh huh, yep, go back to sleep as the steamroller runs over ya!

Mellen on January 11, 2007 at 10:31 AM

Uh huh, yep, go back to sleep as the steamroller runs over ya!

Exhibit A.

Again, nice debate we’ve got here.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 10:33 AM

Where’s the debate? Every time someone expresses doubts about the NAU, they are told to ‘wake up,’ or mocked for their ‘blindness’ to ‘what’s really going on.’

Some debate.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 10:11 AM

Slublog, nice try.

In reality, over numerous threads on this subject there has been many links to government websites, many links to actual comments from government officials, many links to cold hard facts which overwhelmingly support the fact that this administration is – at the very least – attempting to open all borders to “free movement of people and goods.” That, by the way, is an exact quote from George Bush on what he desires.

But it is those such as yourself that have refused to offer any debate of the facts, and instead resort to mocking those who produce the evidence.

Get this …

I prefer my anti-illegal immigration arguments to be made by people with enough sense to stay away from alarmist conspiracy theories.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 9:17 AM

Amazing hypocrisy there Slublog.

Maybe you would like to explain a valid reason for your belief that Tom Tancredo has no “sense” … other than you simply not believing in the NAU. Does he have something else in his past that would indicate to you that he is a nutjob? Or is this all you have?

By the way, Tancredo is not the only Congressman attempting to warn Americans of these intentions. Again, you have obviously IGNORED all of the links throughout these threads which have pointed to several sitting Congressmen fighting alongside Tancredo. All nutjobs according to you.

Amazing that so many complete wackos manage to repeatedly win re-election.

Then, you take posts such as from georgej on January 11, 2007 at 2:59 AM.

Talk about fantasy. Not a single part of his quote was based on fact or evidence. Canada would be destroyed? Illegals would all be made legal citizens? Who has ever suggested that? Not a soul. Opening up the borders to free movement does not make the populations of each country citizens of the U.S. It also does none of the things he suggested. As mentioned previously, creating a common currency does not eliminate the dollar, just as the Euro did not eliminate other currencies. But still, you all go on repeating that false claim over and over as if it was never pointed out.

“The US Dollar is already the national currency of Panama???”

Really? Seriously??? PANAMA?! Well, that settles it. Panama is obviously the world’s greatest power. What nation in their right mind would dare create a common currency when Panama uses the dollar? The entire world’s economy would collapse. (For those who won’t get it. That was sarcasm).

So Slublog, instead of simply labeling everyone quacks or nutjobs … why don’t you put a little effort into providing some actual evidence that any of the points made by Tancredo are false? You know? Instead of re-posting the same line … “it simply won’t happen.”

Gregor on January 11, 2007 at 11:49 AM

So Slublog, instead of simply labeling everyone quacks or nutjobs … why don’t you put a little effort into providing some actual evidence that any of the points made by Tancredo are false?

Given the level of passion exhibited by the Tancredo supporters, such an effort really wouldn’t be worth the time. It would be like arguing against religious belief – sure, it’s fun for awhile, but neither side is going to convince the other.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 12:08 PM

Given the level of passion exhibited by the Tancredo supporters, such an effort really wouldn’t be worth the time.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 12:08 PM

I didn’t think so. None of you have a single sliver of actual fact in your arsenal.

Gregor on January 11, 2007 at 12:19 PM

There really are such things as conspiracies. You don’t have to be drinking the Kool-Aid to see that over 20 million illegals are in your face and never plan on leaving or assimilating. We will all suffer as these “hard working” aliens send their paychecks back to Mexico or wherever. We will suffer immeasurably as their children grow up and decide that they won’t stand for being second class citizens (look at France if you doubt it)!

We are selling out our children when we deny them their sovereignty.

GWB has done nothing to secure our borders. GOP is providing lip service to defending our borders. I heard GWB say last night that part of the surge is to defend Iraq’s borders. This hypocrisy is madness.

The NAU is coming. You can insult whoever you want or even put your head in the sand and pretend that “GOP loves me!” but you better wake up.

robman27 on January 11, 2007 at 12:22 PM

I didn’t think so. None of you have a single sliver of actual fact in your arsenal.

Okay, Gregor. Whatever you say.

We’re just too scared to debate, because you’ve shown such mad debate skillz in the past.

If it makes you feel better to believe that, then I’m all for it.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 12:23 PM

This is not black helicopter stuff? But somehow Tancredo thinks the US, Canada and Mexico will be merged by “memos of understanding”?

I know a lot of people like Tancredo on the border stuff, but he’s a kook, just like the 9-11 nuts.

Brainster on January 11, 2007 at 12:59 PM

As for free market capitalism Sandberg, all for it….now if only we could get that here in the US like China does!

I was trying to have a serious discussion.

Hate it when that trickle down effect trickles into India, China and Mexico bypassing the good ole USA…….

This, of course, is not what is happening. Economics is not a zero-sum game. There is not a fixed amount of wealth and jobs in the world. This sort of protectionist thinking is why unemployment is so high in Europe.

I’m all in favor of putting a stop to illegal immigration. What I object to is anti-capitalist conspiracy theory mongering. It’s harmful.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 2:44 PM

Sandberg,
I am all for good ole fashioned capitalism too. Unfortunately that is not what we have today. Whether because of the burgeoning growth of corporate monopolies it is NOT my fathers capitalism.
Example…The dismissed-or FIRED CEO of Home Depot gets 210 million for failing! Guess what, Home Depot will not pay their own employees a living wage. As a result they cannot hold employees. What are they doing instead, hiring illegals who barely speak English. Is this capitalism as you know it. That is only an example of what corporate America is doing all over the country. Make me sick !

Mellen on January 11, 2007 at 6:41 PM

I’ll only offer one tidbit this round, as I’m sure there will be many more.

Those who claim the NAU concept is a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory have primarily employed ad-hominem flames as their side of the argument.

Those who claim that there are unacceptable activities afoot that U.S. citizens should be demanding more accountability about have primarily employed governmental site links, study links, reference quotes of investigators, etc. Rep. Tancredo spent the effort to write a book on the illegal immigration subject, and has done much more research than his detractors on that and the SPP. He knows whereof he speaks.

The most vocal opponents, such as Medved, can be demonstrated to have an open-borders, globalist mindset, so just exactly how else should we expect them to respond to someone pointing at the man behind the curtain?

If I’m the debate referee, it’s no contest.

Freelancer on January 11, 2007 at 7:24 PM

Where’s the debate? Every time someone expresses doubts about the NAU, they are told to ‘wake up,’ or mocked for their ‘blindness’ to ‘what’s really going on.’

Some debate.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 10:11 AM

Are you retarded? My post has 3 debateable points. I made my response to what Allah posted,it is up to you to respond. You do understand how a debate works right? Some debate indeed…

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 8:32 PM

Hate it when that trickle down effect trickles into India, China and Mexico bypassing the good ole USA…….

This, of course, is not what is happening. Economics is not a zero-sum game. There is not a fixed amount of wealth and jobs in the world. This sort of protectionist thinking is why unemployment is so high in Europe.

I’m all in favor of putting a stop to illegal immigration. What I object to is anti-capitalist conspiracy theory mongering. It’s harmful.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 2:44 PM

That’s not happening? Are you sure or are you just saying that? Because I have seen companies pulling Asians Indians into their ranks at an alarming rate. I supplied all the new PC’s to new employess and would joke “Don’t they hire Americans anymore?”

Is it an anti-capitalist conspiracy to acknowledge the constant illegal importation of low priced labor? It it anti-capitalist to acknowledge how these illegal activities are undercutting American wages and throwing our economy out of whack, limiting progress and stifling competition.

Tell me how is it anti-capitalist to know that if America were enforcing its borders the goals of the SPP would have already been achieved? [I'll explain if you need it]

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 8:42 PM

Are you retarded?

Are you a dick? Try being polite to people who disagree with you.

My post has 3 debateable points.

Then spell them out more clearly, so simpletons like myself can understand. The one and only vaguely clear point I can find in your post is a quote from that government site where they propose to make policy recommendations in the future. Somehow, this implies that the US constitution is about to be ignored and the Senate bypassed, but I’m a little unclear on the details.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 8:47 PM

Because I have seen companies pulling Asians Indians into their ranks at an alarming rate.

Me too. I work in software. I know we’re outsourcing more than ever before.

And guess what? US unemployment is very low and our economy is doing well. Why do you think that might be?

There are reasons economists think free trade is a good thing. You should look into them yourself, because I don’t have the patience to teach you economics here.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 8:50 PM

Let me be clear that I completely agree with you that we should put an immediate stop to illegal immigration.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 9:04 PM

Because I have seen companies pulling Asians Indians into their ranks at an alarming rate.

Me too. I work in software. I know we’re outsourcing more than ever before.

And guess what? US unemployment is very low and our economy is doing well. Why do you think that might be?

There are reasons economists think free trade is a good thing. You should look into them yourself, because I don’t have the patience to teach you economics here.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 8:50 PM

Please explain to me the effect importing low priced Asians has on wages, as I’m completely unaware?

Unemployment is low, what is the unemployment rate of Americans in fields flooded by illegal aliens?

David Watts, 20, an unemployed high school graduate from Raleigh, has failed to land a job since his layoff from a call center earlier this winter — even though he has several years of work experience. He suspects his difficulties are due in part to his expectation of higher wages than the $6 or $7 an hour immigrants will work for.

“Employers want to spend less money on labor so their profits are higher,” he said last week. “It’s very frustrating.”

Nationally, the unemployment rate among workers between 20 and 24 is 8.2 percent, nearly twice the rate for all workers. The jobless rate among African-American men is even higher.

http://www.newsobserver.com/1155/story/411982.html

Yeah I’m a real fan of “free trade”. Any company can legally bring workers into the U.S. but to do is to advertise the rates at which jobs are being offered. Why do such a thing when it is easier to break the law knowing they will not suffer any consequences?

What is the unemployment rate among teens?

Between 2000 and 2005, 4.1 million immigrant workers arrived from abroad, accounting for 86 percent of the net increase in the total number of employed persons (16 and older), the highest share ever recorded in the United States.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back806.html

One more point about IT and Asians. If a shortage existed wouldn’t all the capable Americans be employed while the shortages are filled by immigrants? Why is it I can see Asians being brought into companies and I personnally know Americans that can fill those jobs?

Your point about unemployment is a strawman. It is only a useless talking point once the layers are peeled back. But it is not important because it does not affect you.

The second half of your sentence, our economy is doing well. Yes the numbers are great. The market looks good. How do you get awesome growth without low inflation? Hmmm… Since I know nothing about economics I’ll guess it is due to the largest single expense employers have, labor, being squeezed downward by an inflated supply of labor. How could that be a bad thing? Well if you are immune to the cultural consequences then you have no problem with that, but I do not and if I have to pay more for a good or service I’ll do it to neuter the illegal immigrant lobby. The politcal power they weild is a threat. The socialist policies and race baiting politcs that they bring to the table are completely unacceptable to me.

The problem with the low priced labor fueling a stock boom, that is not a boom for medium and lowskilled workers that are facing much higher unemployment due to competition from illegals. But the fact that low inflation cannot be sustained idefinitely. The cost of production will rise, oil prices are not stagnant. A guy that works in HVAC was interviewed on the radio he made $18/hr in the 1980′s which was a good income then; his 2006 $/hr? $21/hr! You may be comfortable in your software job today, how comfortable will you be when your income is only increasing at 25% of inflation for a decade or two. The continued use of the HB visa program will ensure that programming jobs will face a bloated employee pool.

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 10:03 PM

Are you retarded? My post has 3 debateable points. I made my response to what Allah posted,it is up to you to respond. You do understand how a debate works right? Some debate indeed…

While I disagreed with your viewpoint, I do not think I was rude, so your comments are unprovoked and unwarranted. However, they do have the benefit of irony, given Freelander’s comment just above yours. That’s a saving grace of sorts, really.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 10:24 PM

HAHA!!

While I disagreed with your viewpoint, I do not think I was rude, so your comments are unprovoked and unwarranted.

So I’m a meany? HAHA. C’mon Slublog respond directly to my post… The “I’ll take the high road of manners” approach, instead of engaging me is WEAK. You said you wanted a debate?

“You’re not nice” doesn’t count. Or… does this mean you concede?

However, they do have the benefit of irony, given Freelander’s comment just above yours. That’s a saving grace of sorts, really

Do you agree it is you who has the ball in his court and refuses to return a response?

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 10:37 PM

Are you a dick? Try being polite to people who disagree with you.

Yes. I waterdown my opinion for no one. Run up or shut up sandberg.

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 10:40 PM

Now that we’ve drifted from talking about a North American Union into talking about free trade, we’re still apparenly debating or talking past each other.

It’s not clear to me which foreigners you’re upset by. Illegal immigrants, who are predominantly doing manual labor? Jobs outsourced overseas? Legal immigrants doing high tech work in America?

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 10:41 PM

You don’t want to debate me. I have that wretched patina of ‘retard.’ Surely you don’t feel like lowering yourself?

As for concession, if it makes you feel better to think you’ve ‘won’ by simply making yourself too noxious to tolerate, then congratulations!

You’re a winner.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 10:43 PM

Or… does this mean you concede?

If I’m in a bad mood and I find you to be overly rude, I’m just going to “concede” very quickly. And then you can pat yourself on the back for “winning”, but the end result will be that neither of us will have exchanged any information. But that’ll probably happen soon enough anyway, as this thread moves its way off the bottom of the main page…

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 10:46 PM

While I disagreed with your viewpoint,

Wait, wait, wait… Now I see where my button was pushed. It was the disingenuousness of your post, and your attempt to assign attributes to my post that do not even exist. You actually are not disagreeing with me…

The subject is worth debating. All the people that cal this a conspiracy theory do so because they think they can make people shutup.

Where’s the debate? Every time someone expresses doubts about the NAU, they are told to ‘wake up,’ or mocked for their ‘blindness’ to ‘what’s really going on.’

Some debate.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 10:11 AM

When did I do any of that Slublog? When? Where in my post did I state anything of the sort? The fact is that you did not actually disagree with me. Your post was BS. It was your pathetic attempt to belittle my post; that is what got you lambasted. Again “you’re being rude” is not a response. Grow a set will ya.

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 10:50 PM

Now that we’ve drifted from talking about a North American Union into talking about free trade, we’re still apparenly debating or talking past each other.

It’s not clear to me which foreigners you’re upset by. Illegal immigrants, who are predominantly doing manual labor? Jobs outsourced overseas? Legal immigrants doing high tech work in America?

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 10:41 PM

The fine art of obsfuscation.

You wrote:

And guess what? US unemployment is very low and our economy is doing well. Why do you think that might be?

I addressed both unemployment and the state of the economy, DIRECTLY. You either have a response or you do not? Which is it? This whole I’m to rude is such a freaking cop out.

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 10:58 PM

It’s gettin’ ugly in here, folks.

All right. There’s only one way to settle this. In the interst of peace, let me propose that each side in this debate take turns kicking the other side in the junk. The last poster standing is right.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 10:59 PM

When did I do any of that Slublog? When? Where in my post did I state anything of the sort? The fact is that you did not actually disagree with me. Your post was BS. It was your pathetic attempt to belittle my post; that is what got you lambasted. Again “you’re being rude” is not a response. Grow a set will ya.

Actually, my post was not directed specifically at you, but was an expression of my frustration. Arguing this issue brings out the worst in everyone, since we are all set in our opinions.

And your “grow a set” comments are yet another example of your lack of civility. I’ll make you a deal – I’ll “grow a set” just as soon as you grow up.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 11:02 PM

The fine art of obsfuscation.

Dude, I’m not trying to be dishonest. I’m just not all that smart. I am honestly losing track of what we’re debating. I had thought you were talking about outsourcing, so I addressed that. Now I think that’s not what you were talking about. So I asked.

As far as it not affecting me, I’m not sure how you can know that. I live in California, and my current job is on its way to India.

sandberg on January 11, 2007 at 11:02 PM

And with that comment, my participation on this thread ends. Feel free to interpret this as capitulation on my part if you wish.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 11:03 PM

You don’t want to debate me. I have that wretched patina of ‘retard.’ Surely you don’t feel like lowering yourself?

As for concession, if it makes you feel better to think you’ve ‘won’ by simply making yourself too noxious to tolerate, then congratulations!

You’re a winner.

Slublog on January 11, 2007 at 10:43 PM

Cop out. You have points to discuss in this thread. C’mon Slublog, do it. You called for “debate”.

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 11:04 PM

Freelancer?

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 11:05 PM

It’s not clear to me which foreigners you’re upset by. Illegal immigrants, who are predominantly doing manual labor? Jobs outsourced overseas? Legal immigrants doing high tech work in America

? Sandberg

How about ALL OF THE ABOVE!!

I don’t know how old you are Sandberg but when I was growing up, jobs were 9-5, with health care, retirement benefits and pensions…if you see any left please let me know!!!! (OOPs Too late past the age of corporate consent)
Tell the auto workers laid off how great the economy is…tell those people losing their homes which will probably now be occupied by twenty Mexicans!! Sorry but the boys in charge are not exceptionally bright. You can trust them if you want-I don’t!
Illegals doing just manual labor-got news for you, many of those jobs USED to be good paying career positions in construction and manufacturing ( not any more-Americans pushed out ), I know several myself. And those contractors illegally employing these people forcing out those who do play by the rules,
Not gonna argue with you anymore, you will be enlightened soon enough. Meantime I am going to send faxes to representatives who will throw them in the garbage choosing to screw the Americans who built this country.
I will add this, I do NOT know how on earth Michelle, Tancredo, Buchanon , and all the others who saw this coming a long time ago can contain their frustration and outrage as they see this country virtually destroyed. I can barely keep my blood pressure down . It must drive Michelle insane to see them deliberately ignore the obvious anarchy to come.

By the way whilst we all argue back and forth 10,000 or more Illegals have crossed the border tonight…………so let’s see 10% of Mexicans are already in the US, 15 % of Brazilians …..and if they stall long enough discussion of a North American Union is a moot point…..Done Deal!
Hasta La Vista baby!!

Mellen on January 11, 2007 at 11:07 PM

As far as it not affecting me, I’m not sure how you can know that. I live in California, and my current job is on its way to India.

Well that is free trade. Moving a job is not something I have a problem with. Importing labor to undercut Americans is what I have problem with.

Theworldisnotenough on January 11, 2007 at 11:27 PM