Hiroshima Video Reaction
posted at 11:09 am on December 29, 2006 by Bryan
Share on Facebook | regular view
I’m connected to Japan and to the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in a personal way. My thoughts on the video recently posted on Hot Air, and comments about that video, are here.
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: 1 2 Next »
Why is the word “japs” considered a slur? It certainly appears to be a legitimate abbreviation of Japanese. The europeans always refer to us as Amis. We don’t get all PC on them.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 11:26 AM
Yeah, I also am not sure that ‘japs’ is considered a slur; but then I’m not Japanese, so I don’t really have a point of reference. There were only two posters who spoke of ‘japs’, so I don’t think it was too out of control. (there rest were just quotes).
Bryan, given your unique perspective, can you comment on the word ‘japs’, and also on the general feeling of the Japanese people on the bombs?
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 11:33 AM
Hmm, the urban dictionary says:
So, maybe the word is considered offensive.
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 11:35 AM
Because “Japs” is a trully offensive word. Just because a word was used during wartime (60 years ago), and during a time that may have relieved some the hatred brewing in America (and rightly so), does not mean out of that context it is now ok to use the word. We are given the ability to reason and discern. When a word becomes objectionable we should just move on and use it in the context it was meant to be. If you were in WWII, 1942, go ahead and use it. But this is 2000+, move on and use the appropriate term, unless you mean to deride or disparage. Do you teach your kids to call them “Japs”? Hey mom, there is J*p in my class…Hey dad, can the J*p come over to play? Hey look there is a J*p driving a J*p car.
If you believe that is the way to raise kids, EF, than you are a barbarian.
Please, the argument of “they do so we should to”, is not an intelligent argument.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 11:37 AM
Hmmm….
Japs = Japanese
Gerrys = Germans
Brits = British
Cheese-eating Surrender Monkeys = French.
Ok….I’m sorry. Which one is the slur?
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 11:52 AM
bryan, thank you. this could just as easily be about “muzzies” or similar, and its unacceptable.
i wish charles at lgf took similar responsibility. there are commenters there who attack the demagogues on their own, but it means much much more when the authors lay down the law.
jummy on December 29, 2006 at 11:55 AM
GT, which one refers to a non-white country? There’s your answer, though you knew it all along.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 11:58 AM
don’t be churlish. bryan’s pissed about comments like this….
Well, I guess there’s always a downside.
Kralizec on December 26, 2006 at 10:23 PM
…and rightly so.
jummy on December 29, 2006 at 11:59 AM
right2bright: Since you can only win imaginary arguments in your head by calling and/or insinuating people are racist — piss off.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 12:00 PM
Why is it that when we use nick names or short names for persons, ie. Robert Ronerico (made up name) becomes “Roro” its a sign of affection and acceptance. Such as when a professional athlete is interviewed on TV he/she always refers to fellow team members by shortened names. Its usually the base of the name with an “ie” added to the end of it. But when the same thing is done with nationalities its insulting (and sometimes its not insulting). I’ll never forget that when I was in high school my social studies teacher (French) used to get all bent out of shape when Jewish people were referred to as Jews. She said it was offensive and insulting. But I noticed that Jewish people call eachoter Jews all the time. I wasn’t Jewish though so I was happy to oblige and simply used the full name. It didn’t make any difference to me either way but I didn’t want to be insulting. I’ve since asked some Jewish friends of mine if they were insulted if a non Jewish person used the term Jew or Jews. They said that it wasn’t insulting and laughed. I now suspect that my high school social studies teacher (not Jewish) just decided on her own what was and was not insulting to Jewish people and demanded that we not insult Jewish people by saying something that wasn’t insulting to Jews. So strange.
Zetterson on December 29, 2006 at 12:04 PM
Bryan, as someone who has lived in Japan for several years myself I can agree 100% with your assessment. I would add that even more lives may have been saved as Japan was also attempting to develop atomic weapons and had they succeeded, they would have been merciless in their use.
I don’t think the majority of the people who use it today mean it as an abbreviation. In the case of the post Bryan referred to, the context of many of the comments make it clear that the term is used with contempt.
jman on December 29, 2006 at 12:07 PM
Japanese people are both people from the country called Japan and a distinct race, and by the latter I mean distinct from white folks like me and most of you. That’s why “Japs” is more than just an abbreviation–it carries racial baggage.
There is no debating this. It’s a fact.
And yes, Kralizec’s comment was way over the line and into genocidal territory. There’s no place for that stuff here.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 12:07 PM
So, it’s never a slur if the majority of a population is white? You don’t think the French would find cheese eating surrender monkey rather offensive?
EF on December 29, 2006 at 12:07 PM
The French would find it offensive I’m sure, but it carries no actual racial baggage–it’s tied entirely to their behavior on the battlefield.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 12:11 PM
I only saw one or two references to it. From the way it’s being described, I expected to see a long thread of racial explictatives. That isn’t true.
I have spoken to enough people who are veterns of the war to know how much they still hated the Japanese. Now, I don’t mean they would every be rude or insulting to a Japanese neighbor, but in the context of that time, and the Japanese people and military, there was enough reason to hate them. The Japanese were/are some of the most racist people I have met — not only towards non-asians but asians who are not Japanese. God knows they murdered enough of them and have never fully dealt with their guilt for WW2.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 12:15 PM
In the context of WW2, the Japanese should be held in contempt.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 12:18 PM
Thanks for that information Bryan. I am a huge fan of the Japanese culture and would love to learn the language and visit Japan one day before I get too old. With that said, I never knew that “Japs” was considered a slur, nor did I use that word but it just never occurred to me for I do not hear that word used. Bryan, did you learn the language any? If so, was it hard (I am sure it was. hehe)
zerodamage on December 29, 2006 at 12:19 PM
Oh, I dunno. Perhaps we should ask Charlize Theron if she’s an African.
Japs does not refer to a non-white country. Its just short for “Japanese”. If you “choose” to be offended, that’s your problem.
Is it me or are non-whites more easily offended than whites? I’m being serious. Any white people here truly offended when George Jefferson refers to someone as “honkey”? How about when someone uses the word “cracker” or “whitey”?
Hell, I’ve been called all three and it doesn’t bother me a bit.
Some people just need to grow up and stop being so sensitive.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 12:21 PM
I don’t blame WWII vets for hating Japan or the Japanese at all. If I had lived in that time and dealt personally with that struggle and lost friends and family in battles against them I might hate them too. But I didn’t, and neither did most of you, and whatever bad behavior the Japanese exhibited then and may even exhibit now doesn’t excuse using racially-charged slurs against them now. Two wrongs don’t make a right, right?
And besides, you’d be hard pressed to find a stronger US ally than Japan now. Much has changed since WWII in the US-Tokyo relationship.
We ought to be above throwing around racially charged insults here, and people really ought to get their facts straight before commenting. If you can’t be above using racially charged insults or can’t manage the most basic pertinent facts of a given story, don’t comment here.
If genocide really is your thing, go away.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 12:24 PM
its an honest question and i think the reason is that it implies an intimacy that isn’t there, but that is being siezed aggressively.
if you called a guy named charles you’ve just met, perhaps have some formal social distance from, “chucky” it would be innapropriate and it is indeed used as a method of invective. its a way of saying “i can call you whatever i want” and since its common to treat children this way, it has those implications as well.
when you come up with a cutesy “nickname” for another racial or cultural group, you had better share the block and some social consequences with them. in other words, you better be family. or else own the attutude you’re projecting.
are you a racist? then fine. then we’re not at war with hezbollah or al qaeda or the islamic courts council, we’re at war with “muzzies” – and you can go f**k yourself for all i care because a lot of “muzzies” risk their throats fiighting the actual enemy, which ufortunately for the demagogues is a bit more variagated and hard to keep track of than simply “muzzies”.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=muzzies+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fhotair.com&btnG=Search
jummy on December 29, 2006 at 12:26 PM
I lived in Sasebo, Japan from 1977 thru 1982 (Navy Brat). Sasebo is less than 50 miles from Nagasaki. One of my most cherished memories of Japan was going on a small group tour of Nagasaki. There were about 8 of us from the U.S. Navy base in Sasebo. At the peace park which has a oblisque which marks the exact spot over which the atomic bomb detonated a Japanese family was having a picnic lunch. As we walked by, the family stopped us, chatted for a while and then invited us to join them for lunch.
I too have toured Hiroshima and again, the Japanese were very friendly. Any anti-American sentiment in Japan is centered in Tokyo and dissapates as you travel further from the city. I suspect that the anti-American sentiment in Tokyo has more to do with the large nubmer of American servicemen stationed there (and living with their shenangans)and maybe some old “Imperial” resentment over losing the War.
Anyone who would call the Japanese “Japs” or whine because more didn’t die from the atomic bombs, should take some time and study Japan and WWII more. The Japanese people were victims of a facsist and tyrannical government. They were brainwashed from their early years in school to die for their Emperor. Japan’s war brought the average Japanese nothing but hardship, hunger and death.
DFWShook on December 29, 2006 at 12:26 PM
Then, we should absolve all the germans, too. While Japan was an extremely militaristic country, it doesn’t make the populace any less guilty for the slave labor, the murder of millions of Asians, the concentration camps and medical experiments, torture, etc. The Japanese wanted war. They got it. The hardship was due to their lost.
It was the Japanese who practiced genocide — not us. And as far as the Japanese being a strong ally now, weren’t we discussing WW2?
EF on December 29, 2006 at 12:37 PM
I only know of one person in my life who refered to the Japanese as “Japs” and that was one of my Grandfathers who served with Civil Defense in Oregon during WWII. His greatest moment during WWII was smashing the car headlights belonging to some young lovers necking on the coast. I do have a great uncle who served in the Pacific during WWII and he would tell us kids stories about fighting the Japanese. His stories were grusome and horrific, but he never used the term “Japs”.
DFWShook on December 29, 2006 at 12:40 PM
Bryan, first let me preface that I harbor no ill will toward anyone of Japanese descent. Personally, I find Japanese culture and history completely fascinating and hope to visit there someday.
But a serious question. Why is the term “Japs” more offensive than “Gerrys”? Can you point to me a non-white Gerry of WW2?
Words are only offensive if you allow them to be regardless of who uses it and why.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 12:43 PM
Sure, we’re discussing WWII, but we’re also discussing the use of racial slurs now against people who are our allies now, on this blog. And the fact that using such slurs is unacceptable now, on this blog.
I’m sorry that you find this confusing, EF.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 12:44 PM
GT, I explained it to you already. Japan is non-white, therefore “Japs” carries racial baggage that “Gerrys” doesn’t. It’s pretty simple.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 12:45 PM
Why is the term “Japs” more offensive than “Gerrys”?
i don’t think it is.
there’s this stupid formulation about this stuff what goes, “if it’s against whites, it’s not racist.”
is that stupid or not?
jummy on December 29, 2006 at 12:48 PM
i’m just saying, i couldn’t concieve of myself saying something like, “you gerry’s make some nice lenses.” any more than i’d call a brit “limey” and not expect to convey insult.
jummy on December 29, 2006 at 12:50 PM
Well, the krauts (can I still say kraut?) sure thought they were a separate race. lol!
EF on December 29, 2006 at 12:51 PM
Yes, the Japanese military machine was evil and deserved the highest contempt. However, the Japan of today bears no resemblance to the Japan of WWII. The generation of Japanese born after the war should not be held accountable for the sins of their fathers.
jman on December 29, 2006 at 12:55 PM
Yes, they certainly did, even though Hitler himself didn’t even fit the Aryan stereotype.
The point is, does use of the term “Japs” or whatever elevate or denigrate the discussion? It obviously denigrates the discussion. It’s more than a national shorthand.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 12:55 PM
“if you called a guy named charles you’ve just met, perhaps have some formal social distance from, “chucky” it would be innapropriate and it is indeed used as a method of invective. its a way of saying “i can call you whatever i want” and since its common to treat children this way, it has those implications as well.
when you come up with a cutesy “nickname” for another racial or cultural group, you had better share the block and some social consequences with them. in other words, you better be family. or else own the attutude you’re projecting.” -jummy on December 29, 2006 at 12:26 PM
Good points Jummy.
Today the US and Japan have good relations. If I used the scentence, “the Japs are our allies fighting with us” in an affectionate manner would that be considered an insult to the Japanese? Not that I really care but I’m just wondering about how terms change as our “formal social distance” becomes closer. We often refer to the British who are fighting side by side with us as “the Brits.” I’ve never heard anyone get upset or insulted by that. It never occured to me that it could be taken as an insult until now. If I heard a British soldier say that “we are fighting with the ‘Cans” (as short for Americans) it wouldn’t be insulting to me. But if Chiraq say “the Cans refuse to sign Kyoto” I might want to slap him around a bit because I consider the “formal social distance” between patriotic Americans and the French government to be quite distant.
Zetterson on December 29, 2006 at 1:01 PM
I suggest that you study pre-War Japanese society. The Japanese military and government wanted war and the spent a generation preparing their people to carry out their wishes. Talk of guilt and absolution of whole populations is ridiculous. Are the Russian people guilty of the crimes committed by Stalin? How about the Chinese and the crimes committed during the Cultural Revolution? Are Americans still “guilty” for the sin of slavery?
And the “hardship” to which I was referring was the hardship the Japanese endured during the War, not its aftermath. All metal and jewelry was confiscated by the government during the War. Caloric intake declined drastically during the War. Their sons were sent off to imminent death during the War. Their homes were burned to the ground during American bombing. What choice does one have when living in a police state?
DFWShook on December 29, 2006 at 1:01 PM
I see. So you are saying that non-whites have exclusive rights to being offended? And therefore, even though WW2 Germany was exclusively white, the term “Gerry” isn’t racial.
Isn’t it possible that the term “Japs”, just like “Gerrys”, was simply a shortened word? And, isn’t it possible that the term “Japs” became racial because some are thin-skinned and were looking for an excuse to be offended?
Which brings me to my next question concerning what is “racial”. If you stood a native Chinese, a native Japanese and a native Korean side by side, how many here could readily tell which was of which “race”? Bryan, are you suggesting that there is a distinct racial difference between the three?
Using your arguments, Bryan, isn’t referring to the Chinese as ChiComs also a racial slur? After all, the last time I checked, China is pretty much a non-white country is it not?
.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 1:04 PM
Talking about imaginary arguments, where did I call you a racist? I do not think someone using that word is a racist, just insensitive. Ignoring facts and saying “piss off” is probably the best argument you have. Look EF, just say that the word J*p is a derogatory word and that you mis-wrote and that you recognize it as a disparaging term, or debate my argument that it is ok to raise your kids with that language.
Hey EF, if you tell me to PO, than don’t use my arguments to defend yourself.
I am not here to “win” an argument, just here to present anopther side. Fight with someone else, but don’t use my agruments unless you credit me.
And are you or have you raised your kids with
that “legitimate abbreviation of Japanese”.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 1:06 PM
My sister’s fathe-in-law is of Japanese descent. He spent part of his childhood in the Interment camps during WWII. He finds the term “Japs” offensive. I will trust his judgment and opinion on this topic.
DFWShook on December 29, 2006 at 1:07 PM
Who said they did? Though again, there has been criticism of the way they teach WW2 history in that country and I think the present generation is accountable for that.
My response was to your post that the Japanese were our strongest allies. See how that works, Brian? I try to respond directly to what is being said. You on the other hand, pull out of the air that I practise genocide or some sort of rubbish which I admit I did ignore because it was so lame.
There were a couple of comments on the other post that you objected to and stated in a long addendum that you objected to them. You then made this post with the implication that there was numerous objectionable comments on the other thread. That is not fact.
No, I’m sorry that you find this confusing.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 1:08 PM
Are you saying GT, that you do not consider the word Jap as derogatory or that you do not think that it is mostly used in a derogatory manner? I am not so quick as to call someone a racist for using those types of terms, but surely you would recognize that is is insulting to a large group. I use the same argument to you that I raised to EF (the fourth post), would you teach your kids to use that language to describe their friends, your neighbor, your employer? Would you like your kids to shout out, in a mall, “Look dad there is one of the Japs you were writing about”?
Just askin.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 1:13 PM
I have to agree on this one with GT, I’ve been called names like whitey and Polack, the only thing they do to me (when they’re spoken in anger or derision) is to lower my estimation of the person using that name.
As far as ‘Jap’, I never use it, never hear it mentioned. If it’s used in a non-derogatory way, and offends a Japanese, then they should just ignore it. By the same token, though, the speaker should try to understand that it DOES bother some Japanese, and so should not use it. Should it be used on HA? If it was my blog, I wouldn’t worry about it. But, it’s Bryan’s (et.al.) blog; if he says it shouldn’t be used, then it shouldn’t be used.
The bigger issue, I think, is the comment about genocide, that is totally unacceptable. No race (or nationality) should be held accountable in perpetuity for the actions of the leaders. If someone is still upset with the Japanese over WWII, well, ‘lighten up Francis’
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 1:25 PM
And I told you to piss off, right2bright, remember? There are plenty of words that I do not use not because I consider them a slur or that they are a slur but because others may consider them a slur. Or, they just may fall into the catagory of being crude. Nevertheless, to attempt to paint people on the other thread or people who may question the logic being employed as racist or pro-genocide, is b.s.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 1:25 PM
right2bright, I think this was the only genocide-related comment (and it was on the prior thread):
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 1:28 PM
Hey, let’s all go see Letters From Iwo Jima? I am curious how the Japanese general (who’s name I forget) who lived in the US and was alleged to be a great admirerer of the American people, could allow the atrocities committed under his command.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 1:31 PM
dalewalt: If that comment would have been directed at the Germans, would it have aroused as much distain from some of the commenters? Is it being labed genocidal because it calls for the death of more Japanese as opposed to Germans? Isn’t that a bit illogical? Does the fact that the Japanese are asian give them special victim status and not the Germans? But why is one comment considered offenseive to some and while I’m guessing, not the other?
EF on December 29, 2006 at 1:38 PM
Say, Bryan. When are the Japs going to stop treating Koreans like second-class citizens? Like, stopping taking their damn fingerprints a priori?
You have some really cojones talking about racial slurs, when some of the most revilesome hypernationalism this side of France comes from the country you married into.
That comment implying that derogatory terms aren’t really slurs unless the receiver is non-white makes me think you’ve been infected by some virulent strand of thoughtless liberalism. Check your brain connection, you know that kind of illness is curable.
Until then, I’ll just avoid all your posts. Good night, to you and your Jap family.
AmericanWannabe on December 29, 2006 at 1:39 PM
Bryan, thanks for your perspective. You have a foot in both worlds.
A little off the subject but have you read some of the books by Fanny Alice Hagin-Mayer. She had compiled Japaneses Folk tales and translated them to english. I had an opportunity to meet with her, and she gave me several of her books. Her father was a missionary in the early 1900’s to Japan. Let me assure you, she would not have ever used the word “jap” to define the people or the culture.
Try this link, she tied in the Japenese folk tales with religious concepts. KSomething that I am sure you would be interested in.
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/3.pdf
A real academic, but warm and powerful. Interesting family blend, Irish, Jewish, immersed from a child (born in Japan)in Japanese culture. Lectured in the U.S. (Smith college and the University of Washington) primarily, but taught I believe at Nanzan University.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 1:42 PM
Right2Bright,
Again, why is it offensive? That is one of the questions I’m asking. Using Bryan’s definition of what makes an abbreviation a racial slur, then isn’t “ChiCom” equally offensive? Does this mean that Rush Limbaugh is a racist?
To your question, no, I do not consider the word derogatory. I was never raised to believe it was any more than referring to someone from the UK as a Brit.
I currently live in North Carolina and have been called a “redneck” by Canadians and Brits. Their intent was to be offensive. Was I offended? No. Why? Because I choose not to be. We’re too busy telling redneck jokes of our own around here. In fact, many around here are proud of their “redneck” heritage and it has nothing to do with the Confederacy and racial superiority (in spite of what Yankees think ;) ).
To me, Japs is no different than Brits or ChiComs. They are simply abbreviations. If a person is offended, its his problem. And if you want to call me a redneck, all I can say is thank you. I’m confident in knowing who I am and where I came from. Its the easily offended who aren’t.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 1:42 PM
Hey, I’m offended GT! :-)
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 1:44 PM
Bryan,
Your family ties have clouded your objectivity. I am not an advocate of genocide, and not necessarily an advocate of the first use of atomic/nuclear weapons. I did not even participate in the posts for that earlier thread. But I do not believe that simply because someone tosses the term “Jap” out there that he or she is a racist.
I have a LOT of Chinese friends. Some of them have or had immediate family members that lived through the rape of Nanjing in 1937. They can take you to the monuments that are built in that city commemorating the slaughter of 300,000+ innocent civilians (at the hands of the Japanese). I have many Filipino friends. They have taken me to Fort Santiago in Manila and shown me where the Japanese tortured and murdered their people. I once had an uncle (now deceased) that was in the Marine corps during WWII and was at the battle of Iwo Jima. That battle had one of the highest casualty rates in the war (for both sides). I once had an father-in-law that was a naval veteran of WWII. He had the distinction of serving on three different vessels (a carrier, a battleship, and a cruiser) that were ALL attacked by kamikazes while he was on board those ships. (I used to joke with him that he was a jinx.) My father also served in the Pacific theater as well (enlisted in the navy). My father’s next door neighbor was in the Marines in WWII and saw combat in the Pacific theater.
Believe me, nearly ALL of these people had some very, very nasty things to say about the Japanese. Many of them frequently use the term “Jap” in addition to some other terms that are FAR more derogatory and disparaging when speaking of the Japanese. According to your vein of thinking, we would have to brand all of these people “racist.” Horse hockey. I don’t believe that ANY of them are racist. I believe that all of them have been hurt very badly. They simply lash out at the Japanese in response to what was done to them.
Does that mean that I advocate the use of the term “Jap?” I don’t use the term myself. More than thirty years after growing up and leaving my father’s abode (that incidently was located less than 15 miles from a Japanese internment camp), I STILL stay in contact with and have some valued friendships with Japanese people that I formed way back in my teenage years. Japan is one of several countries that I have visited in Asia, in spite of the fact that I have never been to Europe and seen the lands of my Caucasian ancestors.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that the Japanese must “own up” to both the racism that they preached during the first half of the 20th century AND to the atrocities that their military forces committed. The Japanese of the WWII era were guilty of crimes that equalled or exceeded those of the Nazis. When you do stuff like that, it takes a VERY long time for the victims and their families to heal. I predict that things will not be right until both all of the pariticipants and witnesses of WWII are dead, and perhaps not until the follow-on generation has expired as well. Those are simply the consequences for the actions of the Japanese between 1931 and 1945. If you think that I am WAY off base on this, then answer me this question “Why are blacks still angry at whites for the practice of slavery? and are all of those angry blacks racists?”
CyberCipher on December 29, 2006 at 1:45 PM
EF, it *is* illogical. Although I think that either ‘Krauts’ or ‘Gerry’ is considered not so much as based on race, but based on political standpoint; i.e. the ‘Krauts’ all supported Hitler and his views (I know they didn’t, but this is an example). ‘Japs’, however, *is* based on race. Still, it *is* illogical (at least to my mind) that a Japanese should be offended at ‘Jap’. However, not being Japanese, I guess it isn’t my call.
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 1:48 PM
Hehehe….. Well, I’m really screwed. One side of my family is from New York and the other half is from North Carolina. So, I get it from both sides when I go to a family reunion.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 1:51 PM
GT, you must really hate yourself, huh?
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 1:54 PM
There are plenty of words that I do not use not because I
Glad that you admit that J*P is at least a crude, and could be considered a slur.
Now where did I say that someone is a racist or pro-genocide? And what do you mean by “other thread”, we are discussing a derogatory use of a word? Are you sure you are where you are?
If you are going to slander, at least be accurate in your slander. You are losing credibility by mis-stating.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 1:54 PM
uh, right2bright, this is a sort-of continuation of a different thread.
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 1:56 PM
This issue is similar to the usage of the abbreviation “Paki” for people of Pakistani heritage in England. They find this very offensive, for some reason.
There must be people who use these national abbreviations in innocence, without knowing it can cause offence. Perhaps it depends on the attitude the word is used, or its intent? If the intent is offense, this is usually clearly visible.
I would not personally use such a term in the company of someone who could be offended by it. Yet I think it is evident that people from non-white nations tend to accept well-intended humour and banter less readily, and are more suspicious of motives. I can call any Australian an “Aussie”, and they never mind. Even non-white Australians …
MoonbatMedia on December 29, 2006 at 2:01 PM
You are right on many points. The one of people using a disparaging word does not make them a racist. Your argument is well stated. Most people use words like that to disparage or ridicule, not to be racist. They can be hateful, descriptive, or historical, depending on the context.
Go to a WWII gathering of vets and you hear the word constantly, but you would not want to hear it in the current work place.
It is a word for another time, another place and, as you pointed out, perhaps another people.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 2:03 PM
right2bright: I really have no idea what the fk you are going on about. I suspect I am not the only one who finds your comments illogical and borderline hysterical.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 2:05 PM
Absolutely. I’m just not sure its because I’m white and some wealthy whites from 170 years ago owned some non-whites or because my Irish ancestry, Italian ancestry, German ancestry, Cherokee ancestry and British ancestry or because Johnny Cash and Pink Floyd. But I’m sure there is a DavidDukeJesseJacksonDonCorleoneBenitomussolini out there doing the Green Corn Dance and looking out for me to make sure I’m not offended by anything.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 2:07 PM
Then you can point to where I called someone a racist or pro-genocide, it wasn’t on the other thread so there must be another one out there.
I just do not know where these accusations come from. I am holding feet to the fire for making false accusations.
I don’t think you want to defend EF on this one.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 2:09 PM
dalewalt: My illogical comment was directed at labeling the comment that more japanese should have died was offensive but saying the same as to germans wouldn’t get a rise out of people.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 2:10 PM
The movie the Great Raid, which is based upon a book of that name and the book Ghost Soldiers, is a modern-made depiction of the true story of the liberation of the Cabanatuan POW camp that held some 500 survivors of the Bataan Death March.
The behavior of the Imperial Army that was portrayed in both books and movie was absolutely accurate. The Imperial Army was brutal, murderous, and they were utter contemptuous of anybody who surrendered. They had no use for those who could not follow the Bushido way which required death before surrender. And they fully intended to murder all of the POWs rather than allow them to be liberated.
America, between 1941 and 1945 had every reason to hate the Japanese people, their military, and their government. This resentment was openly held for decades after the war by those who lived the times and who fought the war. For it not to be so, would go against human nature.
But as Bryan notes, that was then, this is now.
I bring up this film (which I recommend highly; it is a great WWII movie as well) because in the “special features” section, they have a “behind the scenes, making the movie” featurette. The movie was made in Australia, and the Japanese players were cast using visiting Japanese tourists and students. What was telling was the absolute incredulosity of the Japanese players about the historical accuracy of the script. Until the Japanese historical advisers confirmed to them that the script was accurate — that their army (and country) did behave as portrayed — they thought this was a fictional or propaganda piece.
That is how far their culture has come from the fascist, militarist, state of the 1930’s. Modern Japanese simply cannot comprehend how their grandparent’s generation were the way they were. They simply cannot believe how brutal and how hated for it their grandparents were. Oh, they understand at the intellectual level, but not emotionally. Maybe modern Japan suffers from a national form of Denial, as China and South Korea sometime claim. Maybe the horror of their history simply cannot be accepted by a nation that clearly does not hold those beliefs today.
The 2 weapons used against Japan not only ended the war, but changed their culture. Nothing less than a primal use of the energy of matter could accomplish that. And, as someone noted, it took TWO uses of the atom bomb to convince the Emperor and his government that resistance was futile (to use a now trite phrase). There would be no glory in their deaths for the Emperor because the weapons that we had could destroy them the same way we can destroy an ant colony — and with little more consideration.
I once worked with a survivor of Nagasaki. She was a little girl when the bomb was droppd that wiped out almost every family member she had. She immigrated to America as a young woman and at the time I knew her, volunteered her spare time caring for the elderly in a hospital. And she had no animosity towards us, the people who killed her family. None. She put it behind her.
My father (who was too old to serve in the army in WWII) was good friends with a Nisei, a natural born American who, as a young man, was interred in a Montana camp. He joined the legendary 442nd Regimental Combat Team and fought in Italy. And he also had no animosity towards America, who wronged him and his fmily, because he also put it behind him.
If the average Japanese citizen or American of Japanese descent can put the war behind them, why can’t we? Like the word “nigger”, it has been many years since I’ve used the word “Jap.” These people are NOT our enemy any more. They are our allies. One of THEIR companies, Toyota, has 30 manufacturing plants in the USA and employ 140,000 Americans to build cars that are sold to Americans (like me) to drive.
Japan today, is not the Japan that our “greatest generation” went to war with. Let’s move on.
georgej on December 29, 2006 at 2:13 PM
Calm down R2B, I never called you racist or pro-genocide… you said:
I just pointed out that this was a continuation of another thread… most of the words/terms/etc that Bryan was upset about happened on the other thread.
And I’m not trying to defend EF on anything… now just calm down, it’s allll okay… just find your happy place.
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 2:13 PM
You’re right EF,it IS illogical. Whoever said that peoples feelings/reactions had to make sense though? :-)
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 2:15 PM
Attacking a guy’s family simply because you disagree with his opinion is uncalled for and essentially removes yourself from any serious debate.
jman on December 29, 2006 at 2:15 PM
Where did I post the racist or pro-genocide remarks? If you make a false accusation, stand up and apologize. If you have the racist or pro-genocide remarks on this thread then quote them.
This is not a place where you can throw out lies, than curse your way out of them.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 2:16 PM
Not to mention the possibility of having your posting privileges yanked.
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 2:17 PM
This is what got right2bright’s panties in knots: Why is the word “japs” considered a slur?
EF on December 29, 2006 at 2:17 PM
right2bright: There is not enough time in the day to counter your bizarre arguments and logic. My comments speak for themself. And unlike yours, I expect the reading comprehension of other commenters to be high enough to understand them.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 2:20 PM
Absolutely. I’m just not sure its because I’m white and some wealthy whites from 170 years ago owned some non-whites or because my Irish ancestry, Italian ancestry, German ancestry, Cherokee ancestry and British ancestry or because Johnny Cash and Pink Floyd. But I’m sure there is a DavidDukeJesseJacksonDonCorleoneBenitomussolini out there doing the Green Corn Dance and looking out for me to make sure I’m not offended by anything.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 2:25 PM
Didn’t mean to come off so strong. One of the drawbacks of posting is that you cannot see the demeanor that someone is in (the poster or postee). I was more aiming at others who make false statements or attribute false statements to me than run and hide.
The intergrity in making an accusation, is its accuracy. Otherwise a thread becomes chaos. I think it helps us all to make sure that people don’t try to win arguments with lies.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 2:27 PM
The belief that:
Brits=British is ok
Krauts=Germans is ok
Japs=Japanese is not ok
is extremely hypocritical.
Scot on December 29, 2006 at 2:32 PM
Along the lines of defining what is offensive, I have a question.
I have always wondered how the Japanese or a person of modern Japanese ancestry feels when watching movies such as Midway or the tv show McHale’s Navy.
I seem to recall there was a time back in the 1980’s when some were clamoring to get Hogan’s Heroes off the air because of how it portrayed Germans during WW2.
I find some of the arguments confusing. Take Speedy Gonzales for example. I loved the cartoon and it never once made me think negatively of Mexicans. Yet, someone decides its racist and pulls it from the Cartoon Network. Then I find out that the South American version of the Cartoon Network runs the cartoons quite often and no one is offended. Quite to opposite in fact.
Perhaps someone here could explain it to me.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 2:41 PM
I guess it comes down to the context of when it used and the intent of the speaker.
As a serious question, though, if you had a friend with an Asian wife, would you ask him if his wife was a Jap?
In your heart of hearts, if you believe there is nothing wrong with the term, I would think you should have no problem asking a question like this.
jman on December 29, 2006 at 2:47 PM
God help Daffy Duck.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 2:50 PM
S.I Hayakawa, ex state senator and expert in semantics, ex president of University of San Fransisco, would help. He pulls apart the semantics of a word, it’s given meaning and helps define why some words are offensive and others are not. He also has some published articles on semantical arguments that are exceptional.
GT, just recently Taco Bell and it’s chihuawawa (sp), was taken to task by a Mexican protest group. The problem they ran into was an even larger and more influential Mexican group was honoring the dog and gave it an award. It can be confusing in some cases, others pretty easy to decide. The litmus test is would you teach your children to use that word. Would you use that word speaking to a congregation of people.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 2:56 PM
C’mon Bryan. By virtue of your family ties and where you have spent your time, you are probably more familiar with Japan than ANY of us. Have you traveled or lived anywhere else in Asia besides Japan? I have. One of the things that I find remarkable about skin pigmentation is that the Asians are a mirror image of the Europeans. In Europe, the peoples of the scandanavian countries generally possess a very pale skin complexion (frequently accompanied by blond hair and blues eyes). In general, the Europeans are darker complexed the further south (towards the Mediterranean) that one travels. I have traveled extensively in Asia. Although the Japanese frequently have darker hair and eyes (compared to the Caucasion races), there are many of them that actually have lighter skin than I do. As one travels further south in Asia, the skin pigmentation grows darker (just like in Europe). By the time one arrives in the Philippines or in Indonesia, it becomes hard for me to believe that we lump both the Japanese and those peoples into one group that we refer to as Oriental or East Asian. To me, the Japanese are white people. The Filipinos are people of color. Or do I need to get my vision checked?
CyberCipher on December 29, 2006 at 3:01 PM
We tend to refer to noncaucasians as nonwhites. However, there is much more to defining race than just skin color.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 3:12 PM
Bryan,
Thanks for addressing this issue. It is disappointing to see some of the twisted logic some posters are using to justify the use of this term. I have a close relative whose wife comes from Japan and for those who think it is okay to call her a Jap don’t be surprised if my relative launches some rather insulting comments in regards to physical attributes of your significant other. By the logic of the posters who insist on using the term they should have no argument if someone says something like “Yeah and what’s the deal with your Rosie Odonnel looking porker you are married to..” It’s just a description right?
The argument about the atrocities and continued demand that the Japanese prostrate themselves asking for forgiveness is silly. I would venture to guess that the same posters take great umbrage when someone tells them whites in the U.S. owe reparations and endless apologies for the racist things that happened during and after slavery.
The war ended 61 years ago. Most of the people responsible for taking Japan into the war are dead.
One last note of interest about Japan. There is a peace memorial park on the southern tip of Okinawa. A wall similar to the Viet Nam memorial is constructed there. The Okinawans lost 160,000 INNOCENT civilians (one third of the entire population for those who get a chuckle at mass death), and some 30,000 Japanese troops as well as the thousands of U.S. soldiers who died in the 45 day Battle of Okinawa. The name of everyone mentioned above including the Americans is on the wall. It is a memorial to the horrors of war and a fervent wish for peace.
Grow up and call people by their name and respect their wishes not to have offensive slurs launched at them.
Bradky on December 29, 2006 at 3:41 PM
It was a normal word like Brits that became a racial slur because of the contempt which it was used against Japanese people. On the previous thread, people were using it in anger at the Japanese. It is used in the same derogatory way as “Gooks” in my opinion but there’s nothing inherently offensive about it.
aengus on December 29, 2006 at 3:52 PM
An excellent example.
Well, as I explained earlier, the answer is yes. In fact, I have done it and will in the future. Just like I’ll be using Brit, Redneck, Yank, Ruskie, Dems, Libs, Cons, and so on.
That said, I have a theory on why “Jap” is offensive. It has absolutely nothing to do with race or skin color. Let me say it again. It has nothing to do with race or skin color. I think Bryan is way off base on that. After reading all of the responses, I think it has to do with pride. Pride is such an interesting word because it encompasses several things. Some good. Some bad.
Having pride in your accomplishments is one thing. Being prideful is something else. And when your pride is broken due to failure such as losing WW2 to what you considered to be barbarians. Pride turns to shame. When we hear the words “Jap” or “Japs”, we instantly think of WW2 and the barbarity and failure of Japan. No one of Japanese ancestry wants to be reminded of it. Its akin to being called a loser.
And because of pride, the term is considered a derogatory and offensive. And if you don’t want other people not to use the word because it is harmful to your pride, what do you do? Easy. Use social pressure’s best modern day weapon of choice — call it racism.
Well, that’s pretty much the idea. I don’t have the literary gift that someone like AP or Michelle have in making a point, but there it is for what its worth.
Thoughts?
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 3:55 PM
Pretty close to being right. One other point, sometimes people just get tired of being called something. That’s all, they just get sick and tired of being labeled something they don’t want to be part of. It’s like, enough is enough…sometimes it doesn’t have to be anything more than that.
I will guarantee that if any one of these posts that state the word is not offensive, needed a job and the interviewer was Japanese, the word Jap would never be said under any circumstance. They are big men on the posts, but when it comes to walking the walk, it is yessir Mr. Yoshi. Did a little consulting for Sanyo, never heard that word even uttered behind someones back.
Good comments GT.
right2bright on December 29, 2006 at 4:15 PM
I don’t think it is pride so much as it is being associated with something they (the current generation) had no part in.
I think Bradkey hits it on the head when he says it is like:
jman on December 29, 2006 at 4:19 PM
Our education and culture does not gloss over the horror of slavery or our part in it. From what I have read, there are constant battles over Japanese text books misrepresenting the war as a war of liberation for Asia and not mentioning the war crimes committed by the imperial Japanese armed forces.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 4:48 PM
I’m in the same boat as Bryan, being married to a Japanese woman, and I can tell you that if I was sitting around with a bunch of people and they constantly referred to Japanese people as “Japs”, I’d certainly be offended. I’d bet anyone else in the same situation would also be offended.
To use another example, Michelle is of Filipino descent, but would any of you write of her being a “flip” in your comments? You get the picture.
I could perhaps let it slide if a WWII veteran (and particularly one of the Pacific theater) threw the term “Japs” around casually. And I can certainly understand their usage of the term at that time, as the Japanese were our mortal enemies. But the war is over now, we won, and Japanese culture was fundamentally altered as a result. While it’s a good thing to look back and learn the history of the war, there is no need for maintaining the animosity of that time, and that’s what the use of the term “Japs” does.
thirteen28 on December 29, 2006 at 4:57 PM
I’m done with this thread and this topic. GT, EF, others who agree with them, if you don’t get it by now you never will. Nothing I can say or do will reach you. Simple logic hasn’t sufficed and won’t. So let’s just end this awful discussion right here, right now.
If I continue to see justifications for using “Japs” or any other racial slurs on this site, the person doing so gets banned.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 5:08 PM
Well, guess that settles that! :-)
dalewalt on December 29, 2006 at 5:16 PM
Not only do you misrepresent what I posted, you threaten me with banning for what I didn’t post. lol!
EF on December 29, 2006 at 5:16 PM
EF, I didn’t misrepresent a single thing you posted. You have continued spinning around Japanese history to justify using the term now. It’s irrelevant. So knock it off.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 5:18 PM
Um, yeah… Bryan’s personal bias aside, “Japs” is simply a shorter way of saying “Japanese” and nothing more. Similar to “Yanks” when refering to Americans, “Kiwis” when refering to New Zealanders, “Aussies”, “Brits”, etc ad nasueum. George Jefferson spent numerous weeks on TV during the 70’s refering to me as “honky” and “whitey”. These days I’m refered to as “cracker”, with an occassional “honky” and a smattering of “white devil” thrown in. Whatever. Cry me a river.
I have come to refer to black people as “African-American”, even though many of them are neither African or of African descent. My job demands that I keep racial stats in my paperwork and whatnot. One day I was interacting with a man who appeared to me as being African-American. When I recorded his race as such, he became irate with me and yelled at me that he was not “African-American”, he said, “I’m black! I’m not African!” Another time I was recording the race of a person whom I thought was Japanese. I recorded it as “Asian”. He got pissed off and demanded I change it to “Oriental”. Gimme a break.
Everyone needs to grow up and stop being so sensitive. Everyone’s a victim, except for, of course, caucasions who are the source of the entire problem of racism to begin with since the dawn of man…
And yes, the Atomic Bombs dropped on the Japs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved untold numbers of lives on both sides, American’s and Japs. That’s a historical fact. What is also a historical fact is that we could have vaporized Japan but we didn’t. We gave them their country back and seeded them with everything they could possibly ever need or want (from money to technology) which resulted in them becoming the one-sided economic powerhouse they are today. Trade deficit aside, I think they’ve done pretty damn good for themselves… thanks to us.
SilverStar830 on December 29, 2006 at 5:24 PM
That’s an out an out lie, Bryan.
EF on December 29, 2006 at 5:26 PM
Bryan,
I’m sorry if trying to have an honest discussion is offensive to you. I wasn’t aware that expressing an opinion and having a civil discussion about it with others was a bannable offense. I thought you were more mature than to behave like that.
Looking over the Terms of Use, I fail to see where having this discussion in good faith is worthy of banning. If its because its hitting a nerve, I apologize. It isn’t my intent. Relax.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 5:43 PM
My ex girlfriend could not stand the Japanese because of the attitude they had towards her as someone from Korean heritage…they themselves were racist towards her because of the fact that she was one Korean and two she was darker skinned which seems to be something they do not like…thats what she told me anyway.
EnochCain on December 29, 2006 at 5:43 PM
In your heart of hearts, if you believe there is nothing wrong with the term…..
Jman December 29 at 2:47 PM
I do think Japs is offensive.
I was pointing out the obvious hypocrisy of saying one term is offensive and the others are’nt.
For example, i can type cracker when reffering to a white person, but i would prabably be banned from this site (and others) if i typed the “n” word in full.
Scot on December 29, 2006 at 5:51 PM
Isn’t it time to drop this whole ‘that’s offensive’ thing?
When the Left starts screeching racism! you just turn it off; you know it only means the Left has run out of arguments.
When you get called a honky or a gringo, or your hometown gets referred to as flyover country, same.
If someone doesn’t respect you, that will be true no matter what words he uses. And if someone calls you a gringo without offensive intent, and you react badly, you’ve created a hostile situation, needlessly.
If you don’t want to be offended, then how about you simply refuse to take offense? That puts it under your own control, not anyone else’s.
Of course it also means you don’t get to tell others what to do, with great offended moral authority….
If a ’slur’ is used enough, and offense is not taken, perhaps we get a word back. At least we won’t have to keep coming up with new euphemisms all the time.
When I want to call someone an asshole, there’s already a pretty unmistakeable word for it.
kate q on December 29, 2006 at 5:51 PM
A Gwyneth Paltrow “Oh my God!” to you. I didn’t know that Mel Gibson was hanging out at Hot Air. Or is it just my imagination? that this statement sounds an awful lot like Mel’s rant in drunken stupor when he said something like:
“The Jews are responsible for all the wars that have ever been fought.”
I hope that you were only being sarcastic. It’s hard to tell in these posts — with no body language or voice inflection to tip us off. That’s why I make liberal use of capital letters (which, of course, honora likes to draw attention to and poke fun of — she’s SO mean).
CyberCipher on December 29, 2006 at 5:51 PM
Bingo! Kate got it. Well said.
.
GT on December 29, 2006 at 5:59 PM
EF and SilverStar830 will no longer be joining us. SilverStar, for using the term with the express intent of causing offense. EF, for being intentionally obtuse and dishonest.
This discussion began because several commenters on the original post reacted to a CG video of the Hiroshima bomb by throwing around the term “Japs” and, one, by lamenting the fact that the atom bombs didn’t kill more Japanese. As I explained in my reaction, it’s an offensive term and there’s no place for it here. Use of such terms is lazy and does nothing to elevate the discussion. It only drags the entire site into the gutter. As the discussion went on, another commenter went out of his way to insult my family directly. He also won’t be joining us anymore.
This thread has been a disappointing one for me. I love the Hot Air community that I have helped build, but there are obviously elements here who just don’t care if they cause offense to the hosts or say and do things that make this site and our community look like a pack of racists. We work very hard here to bring you news you won’t get anywhere else, and insulting my family and questioning my honesty is how I’m repaid?
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 6:01 PM
Well, I don’t have as direct a connection to the Japanese but, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be here today if Truman hadn’t dropped the bombs. My father was a pilot in the Army/Air Force Pacific theatre and they were just gearing up for assault against the Japanese mainland when the bombs were dropped.
As it was, my father died at the age of 63 from cancer. I can’t help but think that bathing in DDT (as they were ordered to do) while in the Pacific hastened his demise.
After learning about the atom bombs dropped on Japan in school, my children came home to tell me what a horrible thing the U.S. had done. I told them they wouldn’t be here today if Truman hadn’t dropped the bombs… Talk about a lot for a 7th grader to process…
Babs on December 29, 2006 at 6:02 PM
Oh and one little part that I left out somehow is that she is also part Japanese.
EnochCain on December 29, 2006 at 6:05 PM
Wow… Lots of bannage going on.
I don’t see any express intent to offend anyone in SilverStar830’s single solitary post. I see his OPINION and stated facts is about it. I don’t see EF being intentionally obtuse and dishonest either. Watch Shawshank Redemption much?
Lord help us if we don’t gather in a straight line and supress our feelings and opinions. Bans? This is how Hotair runs things?
Quick! Everyone get in line and goose step behind der adminfuhrer. Unbelievable that you would stoop to such childish response BRYAN. Yeah, you take your ball and run home then pal. And by the way “news you can’t get anywhere else”? HAH! It’s all on the front pages of practically any blog and news site out there. What a pathetic display by a very small pompous man.
I think I’ll just take Hotair for what it most definitely and obviously is from now on… HOT AIR. Adios cretin!
Dhurka Dhurka on December 29, 2006 at 6:10 PM
I’ll add one final thing. In our entire time in the US, my wife and I have experience overt anti-Japanese racism exactly two times. One was while walking down a street in San Antonio, TX and a black lady leaned out of her car and yelled at us “Go back to China!” Which was more than ironic, since we had never even been to China.
The second time was right here on this blog, when several people threw around the term “Japs.” Do you folks really want to put yourselves in the same light as that ignorant racist who yelled at us years ago? I hope you’re all better and smarter than that.
Bryan on December 29, 2006 at 6:13 PM
Comment pages: 1 2 Next »