Zombie responds to Human Rights Watch report on ambulance hoax

posted at 11:15 am on December 28, 2006 by Allahpundit

Good reading, especially on a slow news day. The crux of HRW’s argument is that certain types of low-yield missiles could have caused the damage seen in photos of the ambulances; the crux of the rebuttal is that no, in fact, they couldn’t. A non-explosive projectile could have, perhaps, but if that’s what happened here then what caused the smaller, shrapnel-esque holes in the ambulances’ roofs?

Lots more at the link, including analysis of the blast damage to the pavement and injuries to the workers. Plus this point towards the end:

One thing everyone can agree on: Human Rights Watch is to be commended for revisting the scene and attempting to verify some of the evidence, however successful they were in doing so. Their resulting report has had an interesting if unintended side effect: it contradicts many of the details reported by the world’s leading media outlets. If one is to accept the HRW report at face value, then one is forced to concede how egregiously erroneous, incomplete and deceptive most previous media reports were. Refer to the summary of media reports at the beginning of my original ambulance essay to see how the Associated Press, Time Magazine, the Guardian, the Boston Globe, ITV News and many others got the facts of the case wrong.

This incident was a preview of Jamilgate, wasn’t it? The media asserted that an atrocity occurred; bloggers demanded better evidence; new evidence was offered (HRW’s report, the AP’s second story on the burning six); bloggers found logical inconsistencies in the new evidence. I’ve reached the point where, when one of these blogstorms kicks up, I half-hope the media will produce the smoking gun that proves them right, just so we can have a little faith that they’re covering sensational incidents with due diligence.

Which isn’t to say that conditions in Iraq aren’t awful or that they’re the media’s fault. I know you all know that, but Boehlert might be reading and he has trouble with these very fine distinctions. I like to help him along when I can.

Anyway, one last point about the alleged ambulance attack. Zombie makes the shrewd point that if Israel really had crossed the moral rubicon and decided to bomb two ambulances just for the murderous fun of it, why would they use a low-yield, non-explosive missile? Why not just torch that sucker? (Possible answer: because low-yield, non-explosive missiles were the only munitions the drone was armed with, assuming that it was a drone that attacked.) But that logic applies if the incident was staged, too. If the Lebanese paramedics or Hezbollah or whoever had made up their mind to fake an attack on the Red Cross at Qana, of all places, why not torch one or both of the ambulances and make it really spectacular? Hezbollah would have paid for a new one. There’s no shortage of dirty mullah money to be had.


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Which isn’t to say that conditions in Iraq aren’t awful or that they’re the media’s fault.

Sorry, AP; I have to disagree with you here. I think that the MSM is, at least partially, responsible for how bad things currently are in Iraq. The fact that they’ve played down every good thing that has happened (other than the election), and super-hyped every bad thing, real or imagined, has emboldened our enemies while slowly sapping the will of the American people. I have no doubt that many in the MSM are hoping for another Vietnam-style withdrawal, and will be fighting each other to get that “last helicopter out” style photo. Unfortunately, the American people are not diligent enought to get the facts for themselves; they rely on the MSM, with the expectation that the MSM will get the facts right. Remember, by definition, half of the populace of the country is below average intelligence. Just look at Kos or HuffPo.

rmgraha on December 28, 2006 at 11:34 AM

Zombie makes the shrewd point that if Israel really had crossed the moral rubicon and decided to bomb two ambulances just for the murderous fun of it, why would they use a low-yield, non-explosive missile? Why not just torch that sucker?

Make that a lousy drone-mounted experimental low-yield non-explosive missile, to boot. I can see where something like that might come in handy to perhaps knock a wall down without killing whoever is on the other side of it. And that sounds like something the Israelis might do, though Hezbollah would never spare the effort.

Shooting rounds like that at TWO ambulances is just foolish.

And having read the rebuttal, Zombie wins. Now I’d like to see the IDF’s response.

Pablo on December 28, 2006 at 11:39 AM

These two images, provided by HRW in their report, show what are purported to be holes created by the “missiles” that caused the ambulance damage.

Now I’m worried. Our city streets are apparently pockmarked with holes caused by missiles. I’m been meaning to complain to the Dept. of Public Works, but maybe this is a military issue.

Coyote D. on December 28, 2006 at 11:43 AM

MSM = Muslim Supporting Media

of course, they must – in order to maintain their access, just ask Mr Jordan.

Marvin on December 28, 2006 at 11:47 AM

I bet if blogging had been around in 1963, we’d know exactly who shot JFK and why.

TexasRainmaker on December 28, 2006 at 12:01 PM

To me this is a hopeless battle in the sense that the MSM will arrogantly ignore any critisims and pretend it never makes mistakes.

To admit they make a mistake is to admit they lie and that is the one truth they cant face.

William Amos on December 28, 2006 at 12:03 PM

If the Lebanese paramedics or Hezbollah or whoever had made up their mind to fake an attack on the Red Cross at Qana, of all places, why not torch one or both of the ambulances and make it really spectacular? Hezbollah would have paid for a new one.

Because then the casual news consumer wouldn’t be able to tell it was an ambulance. Random torched boxy vehicles are a dime-a-dozen.

PirateParrot on December 28, 2006 at 12:23 PM

The HRW report is like watching an idiot trying to play Clue.

Let’s see, I think it was the JEWS, in QANA, with the drone launched DIME, no wait, it was the SPIKE, no no, it was with A PREVIOSULY UNKNOWN KINETIC ENERGY PROJECTILE WEAPON, or maybe they just used their JEW BLOOD SUCKING POWERS. OK, so maybe I don’t know what happend or how, but I am positive that it was the Jews that did it and that it was a violation of human rights.

I’m sorry, they should have brought Gil Grissom from CSI because Gus always figures out who is the murderer, where it happened, and most importantly, WHAT THE MURDER WEAPON WAS. That last part is still missing from HRWs report.

BohicaTwentyTwo on December 28, 2006 at 12:48 PM

I bet if blogging had been around in 1963, we’d know exactly who shot JFK and why.

or at least who didn’t and why, which is a more scientific goalpost anyway.

the hrw “debunking” seems to be just a bunch of name-calling and credulity. those “craters” are so very questionable. i’m not saying they are what they look like, but they look like they were augered. why not even try to fish the ordinance out?

jummy on December 28, 2006 at 12:52 PM

I half-hope the media will produce the smoking gun that proves them right, just so we can have a little faith that they’re covering sensational incidents with due diligence.

I see your point, Allah, but I don’t agree with your “I know that you know…” presentation. I don’t think we all know — or beleive — what you think we know, but thanks for the flattery.

I would personally love to see Occam’s Razor applied more often to the analysis. There’s a lot of very tortured logic involved, especially it seems from those trying to support the original, and clearly false, reports. And I think the razor would reveal that if so many aspects of the media’s story can be easily shown to be untrue, we might not need to go much further.

CBS all over again; fake, but true, etc.

Jaibones on December 28, 2006 at 1:09 PM

I do have to laugh about the press and not thinking they have an effect/affect on Iraq. If I know you are going to be my mouthpiece…i will use you.

When does Iraq get it’s telethon. I mean we talk about how violent it is for whatever reason (one being that they have been in chaos under a violent leader for 35 years). We haven’t made them violent, but the world can help them along.

I remind people that 80% of Iraq voted and they shrug. Some say we need more troops…shouldn’t those troops be from Egypt or Jordan. I can’t get my mind around people regardless of political leanings who will not help these people.

Would anyone doubt the situation would be FAR better had we even vocally had more support throughout the world. Yet, we are left with leaders who won elections by campaigning against the war.

I can only think that these same people are the ones who wish to bring down Israel. In their own cowardice they are moving away from any reason at all. All the while, patting themselves on the back for it.

I wonder what would have happened if someone other than Bush took on this incredible undertaking. I would hate to think this is so much about him. I’m not glorifying war, but I know what wrong is.

tomas on December 28, 2006 at 1:12 PM

Of course the IDF did it, but they used a very low tech weapon. They have a drone capable of launching blocks of ice. All of the evidence melts, though the microscopic bits of ice embedded in the impact area account for flash rusting.

The IDF also has a drone that is able to fire while cloaked, but that’s a whole other issue.

rw on December 28, 2006 at 1:12 PM

Very interesting read. I followed this the first time around. I’m still with Zombie on this one.

KennyB on December 28, 2006 at 1:35 PM

The IDF also has a drone that is able to fire while cloaked

LOL. IDF cloaking technology is years behind ours. They don’t need cloaks anyway as they can use their Evil Jew Powers to cloud mens’ minds.

Aren’t these stories of Israel using secret weapons that cause grevious wounds getting a little old? Is this part of a larger pattern of Anti-Semitism?

BohicaTwentyTwo on December 28, 2006 at 1:35 PM

But that logic applies if the incident was staged, too. If the Lebanese paramedics or Hezbollah or whoever had made up their mind to fake an attack on the Red Cross at Qana, of all places, why not torch one or both of the ambulances and make it really spectacular? Hezbollah would have paid for a new one.

Three words: Standard Operating Procedure.

The point that’s lost on HRW is that this incident wouldn’t be the first one with a cooked-up ambulance. These shysters have been creating and using props like this for years, Red Cross ambulances in particular. And why not – when have they ever really been nailed for it by the world press? So there’s been no incentive to change SOP, and thus no change in SOP.

Good question nevertheless. We need to be asking more questions like this. The reasoning process generated by them provides clarity and overdetermination in the result if the result is just, and well-deserved problems if not.

RD on December 28, 2006 at 1:36 PM

Sorry, AP; I have to disagree with you here. I think that the MSM is, at least partially, responsible for how bad things currently are in Iraq. The fact that they’ve played down every good thing that has happened (other than the election), and super-hyped every bad thing, real or imagined, has emboldened our enemies while slowly sapping the will of the American people.
rmgraha on December 28, 2006 at 11:34 AM

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again the MSM is the enemy from within and the most dangerous. They have our Constitution to protect them were as the Jihadi’s we can shoot. They, MSM, will be the downfall our our country.

I suggest that everyone read the article in full, very interesting. The holes in the pavement made me think of prepositioning of IED’s.

bubbadog89 on December 28, 2006 at 1:43 PM

Even if it was some sort of kinetic weapon, would there not be scorching/melting of the fabric of the gurney and the rug on the floor from friction alone?

CUS on December 28, 2006 at 2:07 PM

The point that’s lost on HRW is that this incident wouldn’t be the first one with a cooked-up ambulance. These shysters have been creating and using props like this for years, Red Cross ambulances in particular. And why not – when have they ever really been nailed for it by the world press?

What is noteworthy about this is that the Hezbo’s clearly understand Israel intentionally firing on an ambulance carrying civilians would be looked upon as violations of international law/human rights/etc. They also understand how exercised useful idiots will become when the allegation is made.

Meanwhile, the Hezbo’s can carry out very clear and public violations of international law/human rights/etc., and there is not a peep from those same useful idiots.

As to the ambulance, the picture posted in Zombies report in the THE HOLES IN THE ROOF AND THE FLOOR section is a little better than others. I would say the two creases in the lower left shows what happens from small arms fire, fired almost level with the roof, from the lower left towards the upper right.

I still say the metal in the upper part of the hole was peeled back. A munition impact would likely leave a more rounded hole. Peel back metal, and it will curl straight back.

Perhaps if HRW were not so arrogant, they would have asked Zombie to assist in their “investigation”…they wouldn’t have looked like such damn fools then.

91Veteran on December 28, 2006 at 2:14 PM

I forgot to add…

If the guy had his leg severed by a munition impacting it while lying on the gurney, I would have expected a good deal more blood around the hole in the floor, and particularly soaked into the foam padding shown in Zombies rebuttal.

…particularly if the guy bled for an hour and 40 minutes as he/HRW claims.

91Veteran on December 28, 2006 at 2:17 PM

maybe they just used their JEW BLOOD SUCKING POWERS

You mean they used the SCHWARTZ?

Spaceballs, the Conspiracy Theory!

Mazztek on December 28, 2006 at 2:34 PM

Bear in mind that HRW is an organization that is protesting, not only the death sentence against Saddam Hussein, but the verdict itself.

aunursa on December 28, 2006 at 3:02 PM

Sorry, AP but I trust not anything that the ‘old’ media posts, writes or says. I believe that the lack of any credibility associated with this alleged incident is directly connected to the huge media hype which fervently tried to cast Israel to ‘another’ inhumane activity. You must know that in incidents involving the Jews and ANY Muslim party, the media always blames Israel, never the muslim.

docdave on December 28, 2006 at 3:18 PM

The AP lives in the General de Gaulle world.

tomas on December 28, 2006 at 3:20 PM

You cant have it both ways…Zombie makes an excellent point that the HRW report would totally contradict the MSM’s reports of massive carnage, fires, explosions and injuries resulting from Israels use of their new, secret SpongeBob Micromissiles.

Once again the moonbats screw themselves.

Doctorted on December 28, 2006 at 3:23 PM

Game, set, and match to Zombie.

Once again, well done! It seems to me that mere kudos are not enough, it’s time for another Paypal donation. So once again, where is the Paypal button on your site?

MattSkosh on December 28, 2006 at 3:29 PM

(Thanks to all for mercifully ignoring my f**ked up post above.)

Point was: Zombie’s version seems to have zero out-and-out lies, and infinitely fewer distortions and mistakes than any other version.

Occam’s Razor: do not discount the most obvious answer so quickly.

Jaibones on December 28, 2006 at 3:52 PM

Let’s apply Occam’s Razor, shall we?

Question: What caused the damage to the ambulances?

Undisputed fact: Ambulance was not hit by a Hellfire or TOW missile. (It would have been blown to tiny bits if it had)

Most Obvious Answer: The damage was not caused by any sort of weapon.

HRW Answer: Super Secret Magical Kinetic Energy Micro Missiles

BohicaTwentyTwo on December 28, 2006 at 4:11 PM

Why doesn’t anyone call the Palestinians to task for trashing all the ambulances they get for free from sucker western countries?
What it all looks like is irritatingly typical Third World lack of care and maintenance of humanitarian aid gifts, not IDF “melting missles.” They abuse the vehicles to non-function, strip out everything saleable and then hit on the excuse to the donors who come by to check on how the “gifts” are being used … oh uh, they look like this because … because … those bad old Israelis dropped their missles on them. Yeh, that’s it!
This is not conjecture – seen plenty of humanitarian aid wasted like that – just few aid recipients in the world have been so creatively vile in blaming someone else for their crass wastefulness.

naliaka on December 28, 2006 at 6:20 PM