may his momma sleep with the fleas of a 1000 camels…

areseaoh on December 27, 2006 at 11:53 AM

torrentprime, you are a typical idiot on the left in this country, this discussion is about islam and democracy, it has nothing to do with christianity. You have the typical response that most on the left have when an issue dealing with islam arises… bash christianity, please pull your head out of your a$$ and address the issue at hand and stop deflecting the criticism onto another group. By the way I AM NOT religious, not one bit, I think all organized religions are for the weak minded who need a crutch, but the only religion that poses any threat to the US and the world is islam, not christianity or judeaism. GET A CLUE YOU MENTAL MIGET!!!

NeverSubmit on December 27, 2006 at 12:27 PM

torrential,

claiming to vote for Bush may not be the best way to burnish your conservative credentials here, and no, I don’t suppose that you have a clear picture of my vision of America.

As for being liberal, the GOP seems to have room for plenty of those, and your post at 11:48pm — which doesn’t merit quoting — seems to define you more clearly than you define yourself. I believe that most commenters here have determined with some certainty that McVeigh was not a Christian, no matter what you think.

Lastly, you seem to like broad brushes apparently, but I have not seen evidence here that the commenters generally “hate all Muslims”, but rather, they seem to focus on anti-American Islamists, the people that we are at war with? You bet that many of them come from Saudi Arabia; we know that. We also know that some of the Iraqis hate America and regard Jews as vermin, and Christians as infidels.

But, focus: criticizing Keith Ellison for his association with Louis Farrakhan, CAIR, and other supporters of terrorism doesn’t necessarily equate with hating all Muslims.

Jaibones on December 27, 2006 at 12:46 PM

Torrent Prime:

A simple question for you - one that I fully expect you to avoid. But it’s a question that needs both asking and answering, and those who think as you do seem not even to see the question.

It’s simply this: at what point EXACTLY, when members of a group or religion or cult or organization routinely and repeatedly commit violent anti-social acts in the name of their organization… do we eventually admit that it is the ORGANIZATION that is at fault, rather than the individual?

Let me clarify. In theory, I agree with you. It is usually a sign of intellectual laziness or moral stupidity to paint an entire group with the broad brush strokes based on a few actions. Thus, in general terms, you are right.

In the specific case of Islam, I began thinking as you did. I really did. Beginning in the late 1970s, even through Iran and Afghanistan and Kuwait, all the bombings and attacks, I assumed that such actions were the exception rather than the norm. That Islam was not itself the problem. I tried to cling to that belief even after 9/11.

But here’s the problem, my friend - and I don’t think you see it. I don’t think a lot of people see it - and it may get us all killed.

The problem is that your general principle is not ALWAYS right. At least SOMETIMES, it ACTUALLY IS the religion or organization or group that is the problem. At least SOMETIMES, that broad brush is appropriate because its factually accurate. I assume you’ll acknowledge this. The ever popular Nazi example springs to mind. It wasn’t a few bad apples; the whole bunch was rotten.

So the question that must be asked is - is ISLAM the problem?

Can we at least ask the question? Maybe the answer is as you suggest. But do you not see just how logically stupid it is to not at least consider the possibility, when looking at recent world events, that Islam is, as a whole, a corrupt and evil religion?

I don’t know the answer to the question. But I’m willing to ask it now. I think those that insist, like you, that Islam is peachy-keen … have not been paying attention. There is something wrong. The question is how big the problem is, and how bad, and how widespread, and if its endemic to Islam.

So how about it …? Can we at least ask the question? Can those of us looking around at 7000 terrorist attacks in the last 5 years alone … at all of it around the world … at least ASK the obvious question?

Or is that racist? Is it forbidden?

I’m curious. Have you even considered the question?

Professor Blather on December 27, 2006 at 1:33 PM

correction - THE ONLY reason why muslims are NOT expressing their true feelings about americans is because they know that there would be another backlash , just like what happened after 9/11 & rightfully so.

Starblazer on December 27, 2006 at 1:42 PM

I believe that most commenters here have determined with some certainty that McVeigh was not a Christian, no matter what you think.

I didn’t know the commenters here were so powerful and all-knowing they actually determined people’s religion for them.

JaHerer22 on December 27, 2006 at 1:54 PM

lets’ see here - on 9/11, 19 highjackers flew planes in to the Twin Towers / the Pentagon & crashed in a field in Pennslyvania & killed 3,000 americans. guess what - those 19 highjackers were MUSLIMS! unless you liberals believe that the U.S. goverment was responsible for 9/11 & not your terrorist buddies. i just love it when these liberal trolls come out & defend their terrorist friends. btw - THE ONLY reason why muslims in this country are expressing their true feelings about americans, is because they know that there wold be a huge backlash towards them, just like after 9/11 & rightfully so.

Starblazer on December 27, 2006 at 1:38 PM

Shall we compile a list of Christians who have been enemies of the United States? We don’t really have to go through that tiresome exercise do we?

Perhaps this will help:

“Spot” is a dog.
Collies are dog.
Ergo, “Spot” is a collie.

True or false?

honora on December 27, 2006 at 2:02 PM

“Shall we compile a list of Christians who have been enemies of the United States? We don’t really have to go through that tiresome exercise do we?”

Yes, please do. Be sure you find the ones that are commanded by the bible and Christanity to do so.

darwin on December 27, 2006 at 2:14 PM

don’t forget to add those nasty radical christians that blow-up women & children / fly airplanes into buildings & kill those who inslut christanity

Starblazer on December 27, 2006 at 2:48 PM

again, i just love how these liberal trolls come out & defend their terrorist supporters like Ellison

Starblazer on December 27, 2006 at 3:23 PM

i read the article & they say that muslims were the biggest victims of 9/11> excuse me, but 3,000 americans died because of muslims. this article also reminds me of days after 9/11 there was this lady on Fox News and she mentioned something that “how do we know that it was muslims that attacked this country, it could have been Mexicans or some other ethnic group” of course she mentioned this after the fact that the highjackers were identified as muslim extremists. if anyone else remembers this or if someone has a video link of this, it would be appreciated

Starblazer on December 27, 2006 at 4:17 PM

I would note, that if we were looking for Collies, Spot would be a more likely prospect than Honora for example, after all Spot meets the first criteria…He is a dog.

Accordingly the same commonsense can be applied to our profiling and identification of likely terrorist. Its always good when a liberal at lasts sees the light, (click) oops they turned the switch off, rather than seeing the light.

MarkB on December 27, 2006 at 4:28 PM

What’s amazing is that people on this thread proudly defend stereotyping all Muslims by the actions of a few. How many Muslims live in America? torrentprime on December 26, 2006 at 11:48 PM

At first I thought you were just an idiot lefty who snuck in but when I read the rest of your post, I found it to be thoughtful and well reasoned, but drastically UNINFORMED. The naivete comes from NOT UNDERSTANDING THE TRUE NATURE OF ISLAM. Sorry for shouting! YES there are loads of Muslims living and working in this country who would never harm a fly, theres no question of that! In that, Muslims aren’t any different than Christians! 95% of this country “identifies themselves” as Christian. Do you really believe that 95% of this country is really Christian? If so, how is abortion legal since the question of whether a baby is a human being was answered in the Bible? See, the CHRISTIAN position on an unborn child is that it is a human being even BEFORE the egg is fertilized! It is a human in the mind of the God that placed it there who knows in his omniscience the number of hairs that will grace the head, of the as yet UN-FERTILIZED egg! Didn’t know that did ya…

Jeremiah 1:5 (King James Version)

5. BEFORE I FORMED THEE IN THE BELLY I KNEW THEE; AND BEFORE THOU CAMEST FORTH OUT OF THE WOMB I SANCTIFIED THEE, AND I ORDAINED THEE A PROPHET UNTO THE NATIONS.

So much for the 95%. The same is true of Muslims. The Muslims that you like are NOMINAL MUSLIMS people who didn’t like the SHARIA law in their homelands and fled, certainly A MINORITY OF MUSLIMS, since most Muslims prefer their culture to ours. However, to be a DEVOUT MUSLIM one MUST believe in JIHAD. To be a DEVOUT PRACTITIONER OF THE RELIGION OF PEACE, you must believe that it is not only okay to kill Christians and Jews and whomever else is not Muslim, you must also believe that IT IS REQUIRED by the KORAN to do so. You must believe that the imposition of SHARIA will be opposed by the Christians and the Jews and THEREFORE, they must die OR be subjugated to the point where they will pay certain “infidel” taxes, IF they accept their status as second class citizens. Because in order to be a DEVOUT Muslim, you must want ISLAM to DOMINATE THE WORLD, since that is ISLAMS EXPRESS MISSION IN THIS WORLD.

Soothsayer on December 27, 2006 at 4:50 PM

Nice to see the Dhimmi’s are already defending their masters.

They should be great fodder for Islam when it comes dominate over the Earth.

“Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” — Omar Ahmad, founder of CAIR

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on December 27, 2006 at 5:15 PM

You libs kill me with this Timothy McVeigh B.S. That piece of crap did what he did out of hatred for the U.S. govt, NOT in the name of Jesus Christ, and he’s one guy, name another ten! The koranimals that hit us on 9/11 did so for Allah and Muhammed. And YES, they were TRUE followers of Islam, we’ve all read the lines from the koran telling muslims to kill infidels, I’m still waiting to hear how and why they’re *not* the true faithful believers.

What’s with you people anyway? Always taking sides with our enemies. You hate America because we’re “imeeeeerialistic”, but ya just LOVE the Soviet Union, which really was an imperialist empire. If we were imperialist, Japan, Germany, Italy, Korea, Grenada, Panama and Kuwait would be states. You hate America because we’re totalitaaaaaarian, yet ya love the Vietcong and North Vietnam, Saddam and the Ba’athists, Kim Jong I’ll and his commie regime, Castro, etc, who really are totalitarian. You think you’re big and brave because you speak out against Bush. Well, whooptie friggin’ do! You have the freedom of speech! No jackbooted thugs drag you away for it, but try that in China and see what happens to ya. You libsm your problem is that you’ve got it so good in this country that ya think it sucks. You’re smarter than us idiots because you’re “elites” … in your own mind. Try living in any other country on earth. I lived in Europe for three years, there’s no place like America. Love it or leave it.

McVeigh. PUH-lease! You guys are like the white guy who, when talking about basketball, says “Oh yeah, well, well what about Larry Bird, huh? HE’S white!” Pathetic, pointy head intellectual types who need a girlfriend.

Tony737 on December 27, 2006 at 6:04 PM

Have you ever heard a non-Arabic-speaking Muslim pray? Hey, what do you know… they use a bunch of Arabic words!
Mark Jaquith on December 27, 2006 at 5:22 PM

Yes, and since they don’t speak, read, or write Arabic, the vast majority of them have no idea if they pronounced the words correctly, what those words actually mean, or even why they are saying them. Sorta’ reminds me of you liberals.

To you, Collies are the only true dogs, and even Poodles are potential Collies.

Mark Jaquith on December 27, 2006 at 5:22 PM

Actually, the truth be known, I like dogs of nearly all breeds, and most of them “take to me” almost immediately — probably because they can sense that I like them. Unlike the trolls here on HA that usually register their disdain for me on their very first volley. (Sorta’ like you did just now.) My selection of collies as the breed that I prefer for my personal companion has nothing to do with your sweeping generalizations, any more than the fact that I choose a particular brand of dog food. Oh, and BTW, if there’s one thing that you can be absolutely sure about with liberals, it is that they always refuse to eat their own dogfood. They are, in fact, the biggest hypocrites on the planet.

CyberCipher on December 27, 2006 at 6:53 PM

hey Tony, i have a t-shirt that says “America - Love it or Leave it!”

Starblazer on December 28, 2006 at 12:45 AM

So the question that must be asked is - is ISLAM the problem?

Yes.

Connie on December 28, 2006 at 3:47 AM

Qur’an 5:73 “They are surely disbelievers who blaspheme and say: ‘God is one of three in the Trinity for there is no ilah (god) except One, Allah. If they desist not from saying this, verily a grievous penalty will befall them.”

RD on December 28, 2006 at 3:11 PM

Hi Professor Blather,
Happy to answer your question, as it is a good one. “at what point EXACTLY … do we eventually admit that it is the ORGANIZATION that is at fault, rather than the individual?”
I’d say anytime now or the last several years: your points are not in debate! Now, now, now! is the time to consider whether Islam is the problem. I think that in its everyday Middle Eastern practice, it IS the problem. Of course Islam as an institution and a religion has its faults and they may be fundamental flaws. I never said it didn’t, and that’s why people on this thread calling me an Islamic apologist and the like are so laughably far off course. I don’t like Islam as a faith; I never have. It’s derogatory (ie: violent) towards women and gays, and the latter has personal relevance. I never said I liked Islam.
But the issue is not whether Islam is a problem or not, or whether you or I like it, or want to encourage it or stamp it out. The issue is how we treat American Muslims who have committed no crime, done no wrong, and have raised no suspicion of either. Keith Ellison may be a partisan shill, a forward scout in a cultural war, an honest man trying to represent his constituency, or some bizarre combination of the above. But we don’t know. And there are millions of muslims in this country who do not deserve to be told that they are disqualified from office on religion alone, which, aside from being expressly forbidden by the Constitution, is un-American by culture. That’s what makes us better than them, remember?
And do not for one second try to dignify the vitriol on this thread by claiming that all of these people here only want to stop radical Islam: look at sniper and darwin’s comment from the very top of the thread and explain to me how they should be taken and interpreted by any American Muslim, radical or secular:

Yeah… a real Muslim. So when is Keith going to strap on his vest and blow up the capitol building?
I’d say where this guy can shove his Koran, but I’m in a polite mood.

This clown must go. No room for muslims in US politics in this day and age. Islam is not, and can never be compatible with western values.

Explain to me how the millions of Mulsims in this country should interpret that. Explain to me how that helps those Muslims that everyone here wants to stand up and fight radical Muslims do that job. This thread does not represent some line in the sand, saying, “We tolerate your faith, but only insofar as it doesn’t threaten our nation.” A statement like that I would not only find fair game, but I would agree with! But that’s not what we have found here. What we have found on this thread is a wholesale rejection of the faith, its practitioners, and all associated with it.
And for an American-born Muslim, who loves his/her country and has done it no wrong, they deserve far, far better than the poo (and yes, hate) on this thread.

Lastly, my favorite sign of paranoia on this thread was that when one poster tried to point out that radical Islamists had in fact rejected Ellison as being insufficiently Islamic, the poster’s knowledge of this decision was taken as proof that that poster listens to and supports radical Islam. How crazy can you get? Since our CIA guys know what terrorists are plotting by listening to or in on them, does that mean they support terrorists?

torrentprime on December 28, 2006 at 6:42 PM

Explain to me how the millions of Mulsims in this country should interpret that. Explain to me how that helps those Muslims that everyone here wants to stand up and fight radical Muslims do that job. This thread does not represent some line in the sand, saying, “We tolerate your faith, but only insofar as it doesn’t threaten our nation.” A statement like that I would not only find fair game, but I would agree with! But that’s not what we have found here. What we have found on this thread is a wholesale rejection of the faith, its practitioners, and all associated with it.
And for an American-born Muslim, who loves his/her country and has done it no wrong, they deserve far, far better than the poo (and yes, hate) on this thread.

Lastly, my favorite sign of paranoia on this thread was that when one poster tried to point out that radical Islamists had in fact rejected Ellison as being insufficiently Islamic, the poster’s knowledge of this decision was taken as proof that that poster listens to and supports radical Islam. How crazy can you get? Since our CIA guys know what terrorists are plotting by listening to or in on them, does that mean they support terrorists?

torrentprime on December 28, 2006 at 6:42 PM

Welcome to bizarro world. The major rule is that the conclusion of any set of facts is pre-determined, ergo the facts are irrelevant. The general ones–Muslims are all evil, liberals are all evil, Europeans (and generally all non-Americans) are all evil. George Bush is a benevolent idiot.

honora on December 29, 2006 at 11:05 AM