Guardian poll: Britons think religion does more harm than good
posted at 5:48 pm on December 23, 2006 by Allahpundit
Share on Facebook | regular view
Merry anomic post-Christian European Christmas!
More people in Britain think religion causes harm than believe it does good, according to a Guardian/ICM poll published today. It shows that an overwhelming majority see religion as a cause of division and tension – greatly outnumbering the smaller majority who also believe that it can be a force for good…
Most people have no personal faith, the poll shows, with only 33% of those questioned describing themselves as “a religious person”. A clear majority, 63%, say that they are not religious – including more than half of those who describe themselves as Christian…
Only 13% of those questioned claimed to visit a place of worship at least once a week, with 43% saying they never attended religious services.
See what they did? They set up a false dichotomy — “force for good” versus “source of division” — then used it to arrive at the fallacious conclusion they were seeking. Virtually all moral systems, including socialism, are sources of division; some are also forces for good, and some lesser number sufficiently good that they make society better on balance notwithstanding the division they cause. The Guardian didn’t poll that last point. Or maybe they did. They neglected, conspicuously, to post the raw data so there’s no way to tell.
I sure would be interested, too, in finding out if any particular religion was identified as more likely to cause “tension” than others. I’m willing to bet they didn’t poll that question, either.
Then again, would the Guardian really whitewash its facts? Well, yes, of course it would:
From Bethlehem to Blackburn – and, sadly, Baghdad more than either – religion, identity and the way politicians respond to them are shaping the first decade of the new century. Bethlehem, scene of the nativity, has been religiously diverse for most of the last 2,000 years, but now its Christian community is fleeing the economic damage wreaked by Israel’s wall.
They’re fleeing a lot more than that. Think this might have been worth including in an editorial about religious divisions?
The town’s Christian population has dwindled from more than 85 per cent in 1948 to 12 per cent of its 60,000 inhabitants in 2006.
There are reports of religious persecution, in the form of murders, beatings and land grabs…
The sense of a creeping Islamic fundamentalism is all around in Bethlehem…
George Rabie, a 22-year-old taxi driver from the Bethlehem suburb of Beit Jala, is proud of his Christianity, even though it puts him in daily danger.
Two months ago, he was beaten up by a gang of Muslims who were visiting Bethlehem from nearby Hebron and who had spotted the crucifix hanging on his windscreen.
“Every day, I experience discrimination,” he says…
Jeriez Moussa Amaro, a 27-year-old aluminium craftsman from Beit Jala is another with first-hand experience of the appalling violence that Christians face.
Five years ago, his two sisters, Rada, 24, and Dunya, 18, were shot dead by Muslim gunmen in their own home…
The fear of attack has prompted many Christian families to emigrate, including Mr Canawati’s sister, her husband and their three children who now live in New Jersey in America.
They can’t kill Jews so they busy themselves with Christians. Which the milquetoast who leads the Church of England no doubt would point to as evidence that the Guardian’s right — that it is, after all, because of Israel’s wall.
Not in Iraq, though. There, it’s business as usual.
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages:
Naturally
Opinionnation on December 23, 2006 at 6:08 PM
I have to admit it’s the first time ever I’ve heard of a “smaller majority”. What on earth does that mean?
The native UK population is thoroughly secular. I am fairly certain the small amount of people who still attend Church of England services are mostly over 80. In about 15-20 years most CoE churches will have to close — or be converted to mosques.
MoonbatMedia on December 23, 2006 at 6:12 PM
Allah,
The deception, distortion, fabrication, and creating the news that goes on today appears to be working to direct the masses into the world view that they wish.
Almost no one is taking a serious stand against Islamic Jihad, but many are taking a stand against President Bush, the operation in Iraq, the turnabout discrimination against Muslims, AKA “Islamophobia” in which we are berated for looking twice at Muslims as perpetrators of violence and mass murder – if you are concerned it is you who has the problem, not the violent Jihadis – it is insane!!!!
Christians? Why they are now the most dangerous people on planet earth. Janet Reno’s Attorney General’s office appeared to think that Christians were the most serious threat to the United States of America.
Christians are accused of being the most violent people in history, even though an examination of history clearly shows that Muslims, Maoists, Marxists, Stalinists, etc., are and were the most violent, dangerous, hate filled, and inhumane people on planet earth.
Not acknowledged is the fact that Christians are the most giving, charitable, caring people on earth, and have done more for human rights in history of planet earth.
No, no one wants to acknowledge that. We are told, instead, that Muslims are the ones who stand for women’s rights, freedoms, liberties, civil rights, equal access under the law, compassion, charity, works of mercy, and so on.
Of course Christians are overwhelmingly wonderful people, and of course Christianity’s influence for good in world history, and in the world today, exceeds the influence of any other single entity, philosophy, or world view whatsoever.
Even those who don’t practice a religion, if they are honest with themselves, must admit it, and many have admitted it.
Next thing you know these surveys-polls will prove that all Christians are wife abusers, child abusers, thieves, and raving homosexuals.
Then, if they put the time into it, the surveys-polls will prove that the moon is made of green cheese, that the sun is nothing but a bright light bulb in the sky put there by a giant, that Michael Moore is the world’s smartest man, and that Carmen Diaz is the world’s smartest woman, and that we are all the offspring of the elephant and the mouse!
William
William2006 on December 23, 2006 at 6:25 PM
Yeah, a ‘certain’ religion. Funny how libs hate religion … as long as that religion is Christianity. But islamic jihadists can fly a plane into a building and they get a pass. “Well, they’re just acting out because they’re angry about years of Western oppression.” Uh huh, go back to sleep Einstein. You’d think none of ‘em ever read a book before … I mean, besides a Noam Chomsky book.
Tony737 on December 23, 2006 at 6:27 PM
“MoonbatMedia,”
That is something I have been concerned about for some time now.
It appears that with churches closing in Europe, and in the US, and elsewhere, and with the increase in the Muslim populations, churches and other buildings are, and will be, converted into Mosques.
Along with that, secular progressive societies, like Europe and the United States, have been reproducing in very low numbers, while Muslims have been reproducing in higher numbers, thus increasing their overall numbers, and the perpetuation of their beliefs.
William
William2006 on December 23, 2006 at 6:34 PM
Having a choice always creates a conflict. I have to agree, I wish we were all mindless drones. That way, we’d get along perfectly.
lorien1973 on December 23, 2006 at 7:25 PM
An excellent point, “lorien1973.”
William
William2006 on December 23, 2006 at 7:29 PM
Then, if they put the time into it, the surveys-polls will prove that the moon is made of green cheese, that the sun is nothing but a bright light bulb in the sky put there by a giant, that Michael Moore is the world’s smartest man, and that Carmen Diaz is the world’s smartest woman, and that we are all the offspring of the elephant and the mouse!
Look on the bright side: at least that would refute the (heretofore unchallenged by the media?) contention by the prophet of Islam that we’re the offspring of apes and pigs!
RD on December 23, 2006 at 7:37 PM
Sorry, William2006, meant to quote you! Next time I’ll use the Preview button to check my work (just kidding ;-)
RD on December 23, 2006 at 7:38 PM
If they’re talking about Koranimals, then yes, I concur.
JammieWearingFool on December 23, 2006 at 7:51 PM
Allahpundit’s first two sentences in this excerpt seemed at first to show that he had already made the point I wanted to make, but in the follow-through, he affirmed something of the false dichotomy that he had at first seemed to challenge entirely. We agree that the same religion can be a source of division and a source of good. However, Allahpundit doesn’t seem to allow that division can be a good or that it, therefore, can be one of the goods of which a particular religion is a source. Things appear to me this way: Partiality depends on division, and every real political community is partial. A political community gives advantage to at least some of its members, or perhaps one should say that the members of a political community are those who are advantaged by its existence and orders. Even if there were a religion that divided pirates from prey and that united the pirates and made them better at piracy, such a religion would be a source of both unity and division, and of both goods for some and harms for others.
Kralizec on December 23, 2006 at 8:33 PM
Well duuuh!
If they’d bothered to crack open their Bibles and READ it for once in their life, they’d find:
Matthew 10:34 (New International Version)
So, let’s see, the Bible was first translated into English by John Wycliffe around the time of the black death (early 1300s) and then again by Tyndale et al about what? 500 years ago. That’s only 500 years to discover Matthew 10:34. So now you’re telling me that the Brits have only NOW started to chant “religion is devisive, religion is devisive.” Could it be that the Brits absorb their information at a glacial speed?
Since the Brits have finally discovered that religion is devisive, perhaps we should test them to see if they understand HOW devisive it is? Here’s a good test question. After Wycliffe translated the Bible into the English language (for the first time in history), WHO was SO incensed by Wycliffe’s act of sedition, that he had the poor fellow’s remains exhumed 40 years after his death, and ordered that his bones be crushed and scattered to the wind. Oh, yeah. It was the Pope.
Almost 2000 years after Jesus spoke the words quoted in Matthew 10:34, perhaps we should ask the Brits the question: “Which part didn’t you understand?”
CyberCipher on December 23, 2006 at 8:48 PM
My comment seems to have been lost in my first submittal of it, so I’m re-submitting it.
Allahpundit’s first two sentences in this excerpt seemed at first to show that he had already made the point I wanted to make, but in the follow-through, he affirmed something of the false dichotomy that he had at first seemed to challenge entirely. We agree that the same religion can be a source of division and a source of good. However, Allahpundit doesn’t seem to allow that division can be a good or that it, therefore, can be one of the goods of which a particular religion is a source. Things appear to me this way: Partiality depends on division, and every real political community is partial. A political community gives advantage to at least some of its members, or perhaps one should say that the members of a political community are those who are advantaged by its existence and orders. Even if there were a religion that divided pirates from prey and that united the pirates and made them better at piracy, such a religion would be a source of both unity and division, and of both goods for some and harms for others.
Kralizec on December 23, 2006 at 9:01 PM
So perhaps the Littlest Moonbat would be more suited living in the UK?
RightWinged on December 23, 2006 at 9:20 PM
I’d be willing to fork over the dough to buy her parents/guardians a one way airline ticket there, how about you?
CyberCipher on December 23, 2006 at 9:43 PM
Upon closer examination, perhaps good can not exist without division. The very concept of “good vs. evil” is divisive. To say that religion is harmful because it is divisive is like saying that bright light is undesirable because it disturbs the homogeneity of the darkness.
CyberCipher on December 23, 2006 at 10:15 PM
H-E-L-L-O Everybody! The ethnic cleansing of Christians in the mideast may have escalated in the last few years but it certainly started well before then and recent developments are only a minor blip in the existing radar. Islam is to blame. Nobody else. Mideast Christians, being a small and somewhat invisible minority of the population are tragically getting trampled.
As Christendom declined in England and Continental Europe, a vacuum was created and The Religion of Perpetual Outrage was there to fill the void. So much for the imbecilic notion that a secular utopia could be had!
Again though, the decline in Christians is nothing new over there, what we are seeing started back in the 19th Century and has continued to this day.
Does this mean that Christianity is itself doomed after being isolated in the USA? Not on your life! Go to mysa.com, find columnists and click onto T. R. Fehrenbach’s recent column about “Religion As A Trivial Pursuit”. In Africa, Christianity is THE growth religion and as Fehrenbach notes, those Christians are neither feminized nor pacified. They kill Muslims before Muslims can kill them. (Naturally, our State Departement is appalled!) In China, Korea, including North Korea and other parts of Asia, Christendom is firmly rooted and even growing.
And by the way, there are some really tough Christians in Iraq. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. They are killing more infidels than they are losing. (Murtha is appalled!)
Is all this divisive? I sure hope so. The enemies of Christ—–Jews are not among them—-are opposed to the very survivial of the human species. Bibi Netanyahu is going to great pains to illustrate this. He is a fine soldier and a Christian Gentleman, whether he wants to be or not. Divisiveness MUST continue so long as evil exists.
Next to the Crucifix the greatest Christian symbol came from Samuel Colt. Did not call it “The Peacemaker” for nothing.
Merry Christmas everybody. Our side is in there fighting!
Oilpatcher on December 24, 2006 at 12:42 AM
As a zygote from Minsk I’m thinkin’ “I’m f*cked now, right– like totally f*cked!
CanaryinaCoalMine on December 24, 2006 at 1:23 AM
Noam Chomsky coined the term “manufacturing consent.”
The use of false dichotomies either as part of a bifurcation fallacy or a “plurium interrogationum” (demanding a simple answer to a complex question) fallacy is how they go about it. This poll is an example of “manufacturing consent” by the choices given.
If America (and western civilization in general) is to survive, the leftwing must be driven OUT of the news media and the educational establishment.
Look up Antonio Gramsci and his “Notes” on how to take down an industrial state and impose Communism, you’ll see that left is well on its way to victory.
As long as they control both the media and the schools, they can manufacture consent in the general population either by pure propaganda techniques as they have been doing since 9/11/01, or by revising history as needed, as they did concerning what really happened concerning loss of the Vietnam War. In that respect, Orwell’s 1984 is already here, as is the “double-plus ungood thoughtcrime” we call now “politically incorrect.”
Frankly, I’m more than a bit fed up with the Associated Press, the New York Times, the Washington Post, Reuters, and the rest of the media, as well as the NEA’s pervasive leftwing grip upon education and that of the ACLU.
The behavior of the media and the ACLU during this war has been not just “unpatriotic” but outright treasonous. If we conservatives do not want to see the left prevail, we are going to have to do something about the leftwing media (i.e., “liberal bias”) and the ability of the ACLU to sabotage the war. And we are going to have to do something about the left’s revisionism of history and gameplan that are being used to indoctrinate our children into liberal drones.
georgej on December 24, 2006 at 4:15 AM
This is not a great surprise coming from the UK, the world’s first secular-humanist theocracy. The Church of England has been busy shedding Christianity from its ranks for some time now, while the nation’s institutions have gone either red (socialist) or green (islamist). Unchecked “Asian” immigration from the former colonies, intimidation by the muslims, and the general lack of ‘nads in a mature industrial society have led to the surrender of its people. The phrase “There will always be an England” has always had a strangely plaintive sound to it. RIP, Britannia….
HerrMorgenholz on December 24, 2006 at 4:33 AM
The results of this poll are no surprise. They are the main reason Great Britain is neither any longer Great or Britain.
All of secular western Europe (Eurabia) is committing suicide. Birth rates are at a level that will not sustain a society. May GOD have mercy on them.
Merry Christmas to all here. May GOD Bless you and may GOD Bless AMERICA.
mountainmanbob on December 24, 2006 at 8:02 AM
Dang. I don’t think my post of a few minutes ago on this subject made it through the cyber ether. I’ll just tell you all it was brilliant and would have brought forth a new enlightenment.*
*In the event the original post actually does go through, its actual brilliance is not guaranteed and is not subject to any warranty of enlightenment, either express or implied.
SailorDave on December 24, 2006 at 9:15 AM
I’m not convinced that Europe’s visible decline has any direct correlation with its loss of Christian religion. I think there are other, more complex reasons for that.
Scandinavia, for example, has been largely atheist for decades, yet still maintained the most prosperous societies in all of Europe. Culture and religion intertwines, but is not exactly the same thing. European culture is strongly linked with the Christian faith, but is not wholly dependant on it.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 11:41 AM
People need to remember that this is Europe we’re talking about here. Europe, throughout it’s history, has had more gods, religions, believes, and faiths than just about all other countries combined. The have also had more wars, conflicts, purges, and strife than just about any other people.
Think this is a coincidence? Think again. For their entire history Europeans have been attacking each other (and anyone else) on a whim and have used many excuses to justify it, including religion. So, the Europeans think that religion is a bad thing? Not surprising, as everything is bad to the Europeans.
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 1:44 PM
Well, RedinBlueCounty, American society is basically an extension of Europe that has retained a medieval attachment to religion. And so is some other European colonies like, for example, South Africa. Fed by immigrants who sometimes fled for religious freedom, like the French Huguenots and Dutch Calvinists, the Founding Fathers made sure Americans had a deep religious foundation. It still has.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 1:59 PM
America fought a war to get rid of European control and restraint, and we won. America is not an extension of Europe, not any more.
America’s religious foundations are part of her heritage, and part of her strength. Ask the same poll question here, and I believe the answer would be in the majority that religion is a good thing.
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 2:05 PM
Of course, America is a great civilization in its own right now, and one which developed in an amazingly short period of time, relatively speaking. In some ways America attracted the best talent that Europe had to offer. Industrious Europeans settled North America. America’s roots still lay in Europe, though — including blood ties, language ties, and cultural ties. One cannot deny that. Europe is the mother continent of the majority of Americans.
You are absolutely correct.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 2:16 PM
Too bad the religion Darwinian evolution was essentially unintentionally falsified by it’s own followers recently (and apparently they are unaware that they did it). (Shhhh… don’t let word get out)
RightWinged on December 24, 2006 at 2:27 PM
No one is denying that Europe has contributed to America, as have every other culture and country in the world. I won’t call Europe the mother of America tho, as we have a multitude of people here from many cultures and beliefs. America is an independent country with it’s own constitution, it’s own government, and its own culture. Sure, Europeans have immigrated to America, and that is mostly due to the failure of the European model of continual war and strife. People came here to get away from Europe, not to become Europeans.
Remember, it is America that has pulled Europe ass out of the fire of war several times in the last century, and it is America through the stationing of American troops in Europe that has prevented Europe for falling back into war.
As for industrious Europeans settling America, I don’t know what history class you attended but by far and large was is Europe’s poor and destitute people that helped settle America. Most of the intellectual and industrious people of Europe stayed away from early America as they saw it as a competitor and a threat to their power and control.
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 2:48 PM
America has never had war and strife? In its short history, it’s had a massive civil war, wars against the Native Americans, and participated in both World Wars. And after, into Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, … nope, Americans have broken with Europe, the continent of strife! ;-)
Poor people can’t be industrious to improve themselves? Because that’s exactly what happened. Who built America, other than industrious immigrants from Europe?
Of course America is multicultural, multiethnic, blablabla, and so is Europe these days. Yet the majority of Americans have ethnic roots and blood ties in Europe — Irish, German, English, Scandinavian, Italian, etc etc.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 3:01 PM
America has fought one civil war, and that was over a hundred years ago. We fought a war with the American Indians, and that ended long time ago as well. America has not been at war with itself in a long time. Can Europe say the same?
America fought in both world wars to help Europe end THEIR wars, remember? We did not start ether war, we finished them. It was Europe that started WWI and it was American involvement that ended it. It was Europe and Japan that started WWII, and it was America that finished it. It was America that has since prevented war in ether place. without us, where would Europe be today? No doubt it would be fighting another war with itself and others.
America has been in conflict with itself and others in our past, and in our present, but we have not been at war with ourself continually has have most of Europe over it’s entire history. We have done more to end and prevent wars than Europe can even consider, let alone emulate. Please do not equate America with Europe, that is a false analogy.
Apparently in old Europe, poor people COULD NOT improve themselfs due to the economical and cultural constraints of European governments and their control. Why else would they come here?
You need to look past the eurocentric thinking and see America as it really is. America is a country where everyone is a king and a queen, a prince and a princess, a country where everyone have an equal chance to achieve their goals and to improve their lives and the lives of others. Can you name any other country that has our success and our achievements?
America has done more to alleviate pain and suffering, war and strife, poverty and hunger, and has improved the lives of millions and millions of people all around the world. We have done this faster and more effectively that all other countries or cultures throughout the history of mankind. Can Europe say the same?
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 3:34 PM
Yeah, it came to a natural end when the Native Americans were exterminated. ;-)
The reason for this is because America is now a single political entity (I’m talking of the USA), hence border disputes are not a factor. Europeans have now formed the EU, for the very reason that they want to prevent further border disputes in the future, and aid continental integration. (By the way, I’m not a great fan of the EU …)
It is rather silly to compare Europe in America in this way. Political dynamics are different. I’m not an opponent of America, but a supporter and a fan of America. Europe needs America, especially in these days. But America also needs Europe. We should not divorce our blood ties just because of some silly competition or something. Life will become a lot more harder for the West in the years to come. We will have to strengthen old ties and explore common bonds to survive.
Well … you have, actually, since you share a common history with Europe for thousands of years, just splitting a few centuries ago. All these European “warmongers” you loathe so much were likely your ancestors.
I’m not sure where exactly you derive this from. Do a poll on the streets of Baghdad tomorrow to prove your point, please. ;-) Or in Serbia, where America “bailed out” the Muslims by attacking the Christian Serbs.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 3:54 PM
I can not, hence me stating that I’m a fan of America.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 4:06 PM
My last post apparently didn’t show up, so I’ll repeat it. Sorry if it is a double post.
Yea, America has had a civil war, one that ended over a hundred years ago, can Europe say the same? Yes, America fought with the American Indians, but that conflict started before America existed and was, I believe, started by Europeans. WWI, and I can’t believe your even bringing it up, was started by, you guessed it, Europe and didn’t end till America became involved and stopped it. Too bad we didn’t stay because 30 years later Europe is fighting ANOTHER war which doesn’t end till America gets involved. And after we won that war and stationed troops in Europe, another war has not started. As far as all the rest of the wars, I do believe most of them, Vietnam, Korea, etc, were European colonies before American involvement and were started by the inhabitants of those countries to end that colonization by Europeans. Once again, Europeans started wars that eventually involved America. Both Iraq and Afghanistan were wars to overthrow a brutal and murderous government, ones that Europe was more than happy to allow to continue.
Apparently in Europe, poor people COULD NOT improve themselves due to European governmental and cultural interference and control. Why else would they come here, if not to break the shackles of that oppression and begin to live a better life? Why risk the travel unless you had no other choice?
As Europe was not the only country who’s emigrants helped build America, Have you forgotten the millions of Asian people, or the South Americans? Or all the rest of the world? Do they not count?
America is America. It is not another Europe, no matter how much you wish it were. America has done more to alleviate pain and suffering, war and strife, poverty and hunger than any other country or culture throughout the history of mankind. We have accomplished this faster and more effectively that any one else. We are the ones that the world turns to when there is trouble, we are the ones the world depends on when there is destitution, we are the ones that everyone solicits when there is need. Can Europe say the same?
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 4:07 PM
They count, but only a little. Until very recently America was over 80% of European ancestry. This means the European emigrants built America (with some help of slaves from Africa …).
South America? Well … not exactly the epitomization of economic success!
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 4:11 PM
Well, you may believe that America is another Europe, but that is not true. You may believe that we are not the strongest, most charitable country in the world, but that also is not true. You may believe that Europe is the father of all civilization, but once again that is not true. But don’t let me stop you from believing it anyways, enjoy your delusions.
BTW, I know a lot of Native Americans that would be surprised to know that they have been exterminated. To think, their entire life is just a dream!
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 4:11 PM
Americans built America. That’s been true since the Revolutionary War. For the last 200 years, people have been leaving Europe to get away and to become citizens of America, remember? But don’t let that little fact bother you.
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 4:14 PM
By the way, RedinBlueCounty, I have plenty of American friends. And most of them are proud to be linked to their European roots. You are not, which may suggest you have origins from elsewhere in the world. Which is fine, of course. I am not really interested in entering into a “my country is better than yours” dispute with you. Besides having no point, it is a little immature. The Americans I know love to cooperate with Europeans to achieve common goals.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 4:17 PM
And you say your not eurocentric? They count just as much as any American, it doesn’t matter where someone is from, or where their parents or grandparents were from. Once they immigrate and become citizens, they are Americans.
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 4:18 PM
I was born here and I am a native American, and that’s something to be very proud of. I’m not going to claim some distant link to Europe as a source of pride as my family LEFT Europe because of the pain and suffering, the hunger and destitution they were experiencing. Do you think that’s something to be proud of? I don’t.
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 4:21 PM
There. Fixed that for ya’. Moonbat, you need to keep in mind that a Muslim is not a Muslim just because he says he believes in Islam. Similarly, a Christian is not a Christian simply because he says he believes in Jesus. No need to respond. Judging by your little exchange with RedinBlue, you won’t agree with my posts either.
CyberCipher on December 24, 2006 at 4:23 PM
You mis understand me, I’m not trying to say I hate Europe as Europe has some good things to offer. I was stationed in Germany for a year and a half back in the mid 80’s and I enjoyed that very much. I just think Europe has a lot to learn from America and I am tired of the European belief that they are the enlightened ones and America is the source of the world’s pain and suffering. History shows time and again it is the other way around.
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 4:27 PM
I’m Eurocentric and proud of it. :-)
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 4:28 PM
Which is more cool, because simply agreeing with everything is boring and conformist.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 4:29 PM
You misunderstand me too. Let me say that again: I’m a fan and admirer of America. But I won’t go along with your Euro-bashing, because a lot of it is rooted in ignorance.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 4:31 PM
And arguing for the sake of an argument is childish and shows little respect for the opinion others. If you have a point, then by all means use arguments to make that point. If you goal is just to argue for the sake of entertainment, then let me know as I do not wish to debate simply for your amusement.
RedinBlueCounty on December 24, 2006 at 4:34 PM
Oh, again a misunderstanding. I never argue for the sake of it. Only when I have a point to make. It does not amuse me either. Your responses do, though.
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 4:37 PM
It is interesting to note that, according to census figures, more Americans view their ancestry as “German” than those who view it as simply “American”. If you want some insight into “Eurocentricity”, then have a look at this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.jpg
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 4:42 PM
LOL! The only thing that post of your proves is that you have never spent a significant amount of time traveling within the United States. The people that live here can take one glance at that map and they laugh because the only thing that it indicates is something that everyone that lives here already know, viz. a majority of the hillbillys in the U.S. are not really certain where they came from, and even if they do know where they came from, most likely they’re too xenophobic to admit it.
CyberCipher on December 24, 2006 at 8:01 PM
Sure, like our friend RedinBlueCounty? ;-)
MoonbatMedia on December 24, 2006 at 8:26 PM
I presume that our friend RedInBlue is a conservative living in county filled with moonbat liberals (based on his handle alone). I know how he feels. My geographic circumstances are similar. Life’s hard for people like us.
Although it is true that most Americans can trace their ancestry back to the caucasian races of Europe, a good portion of our similarites end right there in the DNA. Some of my ancestors arrived in Jamestown Virginia on the second British boat that arrived — in 1610 (first boat to arrive at that colony was in 1607). So a little arithmetic reveals that my ancestors and I have had ~400 years to separate our way of thinking from the Celt/Roman/Anglo/Saxon/Norman tribes that squabbled over the British isles. Most Americans are probably no more like the Europeans than the Europeans are like the ancient Greeks or Romans. My children are a mix of Irish, Welch, English, Italian, Portuguese, and American Indian (and probably some other things that I don’t know about). I believe that this is one of the most significant differences between Americans and Europeans. We Americans are much more of a melting pot. We assimilate everyone and everything. Europeans are stark segregationists by comparison. It is only now, in the 21st century, that the Europeans are taking some steps (with the EU and a common currency) to “mix things up a bit”.
Although I have worked on business deals with Europeans, and I spent many my formative years in school with many Europeans, I can not say that I feel any more binding ties with them than I do with my Asian friends and business associates. Furthermore, I have never been to Europe and quite frankly, I have no desire to go there. Does that mean that I’m a xenophobic hillbilly? Not exactly. I have made numerous trips to Asian countries. When someone asks me why I’ve never visited Europe, my reply is that “My ancestors left Europe a.s.a.p. back in 1610. It is enough for me to trust their judgement.”
Another point to ponder is that although you Europeans think of us Americans as the “new kid on the block,” the truth, according to geneticists like Spencer Wells (BTW, he’s an American Stanford Ph.D. working at Oxford) says that it is actually the Europeans (the caucasian races, in general) that are the true “newcomers.” Based on DNA evidence, he claims that humans (possessing our current DNA code), have been around for 60,000 years, but the causian races of Europe have only been around for the last 20,000 years or so. I have no problem with you being Eurocentric. Just don’t go around telling everyone that the Europeans were the first and best at everything — because they were’nt.
CyberCipher on December 24, 2006 at 11:24 PM
It shows. I do admit I have never been to America either, mostly because I have not been able to yet. But perhaps in 2007 …
I would warmly invite you to visit us in Europe, though. We’re not as different from you as you may imagine. You may just like it. I know that Americans love it here in London, and they love visiting cities like Paris, Rome, etc. Completely different world, but the people are genuine if you can look past their un-American reservedness
Well good on you. Most Europeans have no desire whatsoever to “mix things up a bit”. Most Europeans oppose the un-democratic EU too. Why try to fix something that isn’t broken.
So, if you have European ancestry, the same would hold true for you as well? Regardless of the fact that you are now American.
I am actually also a “Colonial” … of Dutch/German heritage, but born and bred in South Africa. My paternal ancestors left Amsterdam back in 1666, at the same year of the Great Fire of London and the end of the Plague.
Now, I am back in Europe. I feel as if I have come home to where I belong. I’ll stay here, and I don’t feel attracted to go to America, Australia or anywhere else in the New World.
MoonbatMedia on December 25, 2006 at 7:28 AM
Merry Christmas to all you Americans.
MoonbatMedia on December 25, 2006 at 8:17 AM
I must disagree. Good can indeed exist for it’s own sake, without requiring evil as the counterpoint. Evil, on the other hand, cannot say the same. It exists always as a perversion of some good, whether due to greed, lust, jealousy, etc. Always it is someone’s selfish wish for a good that they either don’t deserve or haven’t earned that drives evil.
And since the concept of light/dark was brought up, consider this. Even the smallest candle lit in a room dispels the darkness, but is there any way to bring darkness to a place to remove light? No, it is impossible. Light has power, darkness has none, is nothing more than the absence of power. So it is with good and evil. Evil has no power other than the shreds of light which represent the twisted good which is its goal. Real evil, faced with real good, is wiped away as darkness is before a bright light.
Freelancer on December 26, 2006 at 6:22 AM
Comment pages: