Honora, it depends on *where* and *how* they live. It can be done, depending on the situation. I sold my business and got a J.O.B. at SWA as a baggage handler for SEVEN bucks an hour … at age 30! At first I struggled, I LITERALLY survived on those damned peanuts! But I worked hard, got some overtime, and after one year, I got promoted into Operations (a small raise), traded in my GMC Jimmy for a cheap little stick shift pickup truck, got a cheap little apartment and within a year I had a surplus and a couple years later (at sixteen bucks an hour) and I saved enough for a downpayment on a house. I moved up to Inflight, got married, bought a house and had a kid all in the same year. It can be done, people do it all the time. All of my coworkers are in the (approximate) same income range as me and they all live well. Not rich, not poor, but well. It can be done and IS done everyday in this country.

Tony737 on December 21, 2006 at 8:43 PM

Good for you. Nothing like education and hard work. I worked as a waitress part time thru school. My parents covered college but I was on my own for spending money and grad school. To this day I overtip waitresses and waiters, remember what hard work that was. Good for the soul though.

This books explains how:

The average “poor” family in America OWNS a 2 bed, 2 bath, 1 car garage house, has 2 foreign cars, 2 TVs, 2 VCRs (VCRs when the book was written, DVDs now) and cable (or sat dish now).

The average “rich” family owns a 3/2/2 house, 2 domestic cars, 1 TV, 1 VCR (DVD) and cable (sat dish).

The millionaire next door lives in YOUR neighborhood, you know him, he may even be YOU.

80 percent of millionaires in the U.S. are FIRST GENERATION, SELF-MADE millionaires. They did not inherit their money.

A lot of the people who live in mansions are broke. They live beyond their means and work like animals to keep up. That’s why most millionaires live nextdoor to YOU.

Sorry, NTWR. That’s not my style.

Which begs the question,how the hell does anyone live on $10, or $15 for that matter, an hour?

honora on December 21, 2006 at 12:44 PM

In San Antonio, TX, I make out well enough on $7.50/hour. The rent’s paid, there’s food on the table, clean clothes on my back and gas in the car. I can even afford the occasional book or CD/DVD. I wouldn’t care to try to support a family on what I make, but I get by.

It is my understanding that the Swift company hired illegals who had fake documentation. I don’t think the company knowingly hired illegals. If I’m wrong, feel free to tell me – I haven’t not been following this story much.

They knew. There was an expose on this by (God help us) Geraldo a couple of years ago. Swift is just one of the big meat packers who use illegals.

He said it started at $15 per hour.

Then, just today, I was down at a local auto mechanics shop / storage lot. I was talking to one of the workers there. He was a local man who was about 45 and was born and raised here. During the course of some friendly business negotiation, he mentioned he would have to talk to the boss about that for guidance, because he was just a hourly wage worker.

His wage? $10 per hour.

EFG on December 20, 2006 at 11:09 PM

If he was paying the illegal under the table, that $15 equates roughly to the $10 wage in terms of actual cost to the employer. You have to add in benefits, unemployment insurance, SS, local and state employer taxes.

Which begs the question,how the hell does anyone live on $10, or $15 for that matter, an hour?

Norad? Sheesh, they could come up with a better story than that. Tell the truth! Alien technology from the Roswell Crash… ect…

Exit question: should Santa be allowed to enter American airspace without a work visa?

NORAD already provides him fighter escort.

noradsanta.org

Can I roast marshmallows over their burning account?

:)

whats wrong with this picture?

Hernandez, who had gone to the employment office because her husband was there to apply for unemployment insurance, decided to apply for a job at Swift on a whim.

from the ‘I wonder why.‘ link above.

An Illegal still here? This family is all legal but want unemployment money instead of a job?
Why didn’t the Rocky Mtn News reporter follow this a little more? By Fernando Quintero, Rocky Mountain News /
He wont answer me or my emails.

shooter on December 20, 2006 at 8:43 PM

There’s a story waiting to happen.

It is my understanding that the Swift company hired illegals who had fake documentation. I don’t think the company knowingly hired illegals.

Yes.

This doesn’t stop the Des Moines Register from referring to those charged in Marshalltown, Iowa as “raid victims” and (I choke on this) “Iowans.” Victims my fat white hiney–how about the American citizens being called in to the IRS to pay taxes on wages credited to the stolen social security numbers?

Those willing to work “off the books” or “under the table” evade taxes that the rest of us (including their employer’s share of payroll taxes) pay AND their employers save money on benefits as well as salaries.

It is my understanding that the Swift company hired illegals who had fake documentation. I don’t think the company knowingly hired illegals. If I’m wrong, feel free to tell me – I haven’t not been following this story much.

So georgej, your theory would hold up for, say, a small construction company – but not for Swift, in this case, if I’m right.

The practical effect of illegal immigration has been to keep wages down THROUGHTOUT all economic sectors, for all “non-professional” workers.

Swift, like agri-business, wants the lowest overhead that they can get away with. Why? To sell more product by being the best bargain. Personnel costs (wages and benefits) are the single most expensive part of doing business, more than insurance, taxes, utilities, real estate, and so on. When possible, American business automate if they can (the automakers and electronics companies), or they go off shore, or they hire from a workforce that is willing underbid everybody else, such as H1 visa holders for high-skilled or illegal aliens for unskilled or low-skilled labor.

This way, they make more profit for the stockholders — mostly pension funds or large investment firms these days — while better competing for additional market share.

Whatever the actual number of illegals in the US is, 12 million or 20 million, they are in direct competition with citizens for jobs. This incident ought to prove that conclusivly. Those willing to work “off the books” or “under the table” evade taxes that the rest of us (including their employer’s share of payroll taxes) pay AND their employers save money on benefits as well as salaries. The laws of supply and demand work and competition, therefore, to keep wages down.

If 5% of the workforce are illegal aliens (and that is at least the case, if not higher today, I believe), that drags down the wages of everybody else who have no choice but to compete with them in order to work at all. This progressively pulls down the wages of everybody who is not a professional or otherwise highly skilled or an entrepreneur.

There are two other forces at work here. Housing costs, despite the “real estate bubble bursting” are continuing to rise. Mortgages payments are immune to land value decreases(unless the price drops so far so fast that the bank forecloses in self-defense to prevent you from defaulting first). Real estate taxes (the rates are ALWAYS going up), do not drop unless the home sells at a price lower than the assessed valuation.

I’ve seen it in Chicago and out in the rural county that I live in now. When developers come in, they are NOT interested in building affordable housing, they are interested in making the biggest buck on each unit that they can. So, areas in Chicago that used to be lower middle class with modest homes and reasonable rents for older appartments get bulldozed and replaced by townhomes, condos, “lofts”, and larger homes that start at $500,000 to $1 million. Entire neighborhoods get replaced, their people displaced to find other affordable housing — only to find that the increased COMPETITION caused by a larger demand for a smaller supply for such, causes those rents and home values to climb too.

The Kelo decision is part of this. It will end up destroying affordable housing for everybody, including those of us in the middle, upper-middle, and ultimately the low end of the so-called “rich” (anybody making over $65,000/year) unless it is overturned. Kelo turns everybody’s home and property into a candy store for develpers.

With the pushing-up of housing values, and the educational unions’ incessent push for higher wages and benefits, which are matched or exceeded by increased salaries for administrators, come ever-higher property taxes at both the assesed level AND with higher tax rates as the schools plead poverty (as they always do) to win referrendums.

So, Joe-sixpack (-less because he had to give up buying beer ’cause the “sin taxes” went up, too) is fighting for a standard of living that is being undermined by illegal aliens driving wages down, while being bludgened by a double whammy of lack of affordable housing AND higher property (and other) taxes. The author of Pursuit of Happiness notes that he himself was homeless even though he had a job.

As I understand it, “affordable housing” is housing that which costs less than 29% of income. I know for a fact, until I paid off my mortgage, my housing costs (mortgage + taxes) was close to 50% of my income when my wife was in law school and not working. So, I know the pinch Joe feels.

That’s my analysis of what the Swift raid really signifies.

Here is my solution — (1) enforce the laws against businesses that hire illegal aliens to dry out the economic incentive to come here illegally. Start sending managers to prison and watch the practice stop. (2) Begin deporting illegal aliens in earnest and build what ever it takes to STOP illegals from crossing the border, (3) overturn Kelo, (4) place a cap on property taxes, specifically, and other taxes in general with an equivalent decrase in local government spending, (5) repeal “prevailing wage” federal guidelines that inflate public sector project costs, (6) remove the influence of lobbyists for “big ticket” items, such as the road building lobby which agitates to design sub-performing roads to insure their continued employment at every higher costs per mile.

And (7) DO NOT increase the minimum wage as the so-called calls for “living wages” is a pallative that looks good but solves nothing as long as there are illegal aliens willing to work and employers willing to hire them. Compared to the general work force, raising the minimum wage will positively effect very few people. But without draining the illegal alien work force, nothing will change except US citizens or legal residents will be fired and replace with illegals willing to work under the table for less than minimum wage — as they are doing right now.

CyberCipher on December 20, 2006 at 8:57 PM Actually, yeah, you have the whole labor leader/union boss thing down pretty well. Just add a few threats of physical harm and maybe a cocktail party with someone named Carmine, and you’ve got it. Don’t forget the ’75 caddy.

A couple of days ago I moved from one appartment to another. Most of my stuff I moved myself and with the help of my girlfriend. But I had three pieces of large furniture that I needed a pickup truck to move.

So I went to Craigs List and hired some guy with a truck for $70. He was a cool guy and during the commute, we started to talk. He mentioned that he had hired these illegals workers in the past to help him with some side construction contracting projects. I asked him what the rate was.

He said it started at $15 per hour.

Then, just today, I was down at a local auto mechanics shop / storage lot. I was talking to one of the workers there. He was a local man who was about 45 and was born and raised here. During the course of some friendly business negotiation, he mentioned he would have to talk to the boss about that for guidance, because he was just a hourly wage worker.

His wage? $10 per hour.

Surprise: Americans lining up to do “jobs Americans won’t do”Allahpundit This was the fourth objective listed in the immigration speech remix, you may recall. Jeb acknowledged today that the Bush name has left him with “no future” in politics…