Schlussel: Is Obama a Muslim manchurian candidate?

posted at 5:05 pm on December 19, 2006 by Allahpundit

Let me choose my words carefully here.

I like Debbie. She does good work. But I am, shall we say, skeptical in the extreme of both the reasoning and conclusion of this particular post.

A (very) few of you have raised the same points in the comments here before, though, so there’s the link for your enjoyment on a slow news afternoon.

Update: Excellent response here from Greg Tinti, whose skepticism is as extreme as mine.

Update: Baldilocks issues a warning to the right.

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2

She is not nuts.

Anyone who doubts the possibilty that this could happen is ignoring the obvious.

Hum louder, he’ll go away….

seejanemom on December 20, 2006 at 9:15 AM

[Debbie Schlussel]

So, even if he identifies strongly as a Christian, and even if he despised the behavior of his father (as Obama said on Oprah); is a man who Muslims think is a Muslim, who feels some sort of psychological need to prove himself to his absent Muslim father, and who is now moving in the direction of his father’s heritage, a man we want as President when we are fighting the war of our lives against Islam? Where will his loyalties be?

I think your predisposition to either count or discount what Debbie said depends in part on whether or not you agree with her larger point: are we fighting the war of our lives against Islam per se (or will we be at some point) or is it something else? That’s what she is claiming, and her points regarding Obama rest & fall on that to a significant degree.

If it is Islam that is our existential threat, then why is it fringe to consider Obama’s mixed identity an issue when deciding whether to entrust him with executive decision-making power over that very issue? If not, and it is actually a sub-group within Islam that is our existential threat – one we can identify/name and challenge directly without pitting the rest of Islam aginst us – then perhaps his family’s Muslim identity (and life in a Kenyan community that practices parts of the shari’a) ought not be a matter of concern to us.

And with due respect, it’s unfair to suggest Schlussel is selling the fear of a Manchurian, activate-on-my-command Candidacy. There are enough Mike Hawashes in the real world that we don’t need to conjure up strawman fantasies to knock down.

Even to frame Debbie’s point solely as a “will Obama pull a Mike Hawash on us?” is to edge Obama’s probability cloud in only one narrow direction. If this non-war turns into a war focused toward Islam, whether by choice or by circumstance (such as, a self-declared worldwide Islamic caliphate declares all-out war against us), then what kinds of psychological pressure will Obama be under personally that no other U.S. leader in history has had to endure? Will he cave and do less than he needs to? I think it’s a valid point, it needs to be brought out, and it follows naturally from what Debbie wrote (unlike the proto-sleeper-cell theory some have jumped to).

On a personal level, does Obama realize what he may have to contend with as President if he is put in the position of confronting the Muslim umma, with them egging him on publicly to face his own “apostasy from Islam”? And if/when he finally is, will he have the moral and physical courage to stare them down? If so, then as President he could be the polar opposite of what Debbie fears: a shining example and role model for other ex-Muslims and Muslims looking to apostasize the world over – the right “come-to-Jesus” ;-) figure at the right time in world history…

So: even in Debbie’s framing of the issue, there’s potential upside as well as downside. But the risk and volatility is not absent, as some would like to believe. And it ought be discussed openly and forthrightly (which is one plus of the blogosphere).

For example: I think Barack opening up about his childhood experiences, family life in Indonesia, customs, attitudes, practices, etc., would help to alleviate some uncertainties. Did he go to a secular government school or to a madrassa? Why did his father (and mother) not send him to any of the American schools in the area? What did the other pupils say about him, what were his friendships like? Was he disgusted or revolted by the educational experience, or was it a happy time? What did he enjoy most about it and how did it compare with the education he received elsewhere?

RD on December 20, 2006 at 9:29 AM

Debbie is spot on. Where will his loyalties lie? When we are at war with a group that want to subjugate us, enslave us, or kill us, I don’t want anyone in our government a member of that group. For example, I don’t want mulism infiltration of our government like the communists did in the 1950′s. Loyalty tests are perfectly appropriate in this case. As another example, Israel has four arab/muslim members in its Knesset. Each one has visited with a leader of Israel’s enemies that vow to destroy it. They have no loyalty to the state that they live in. Why should Barak Hussein Obama be any different? Like I said before, EVERY muslim is suspect unless proven otherwise. Especially when we are in a war.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 20, 2006 at 12:01 PM

In my view, it’s the question of our time — is what we are seeing the belief system of Islam itself, or is it a perversion of Islam? It’s a horrifically difficult question, and one no one really wants to ask because of the implications either answer opens.

Oh puh-leeze. There is no such thing as Islam the belief system and Islam the practice. Islam is defined as the behavior of its adherents. Just as for ALL religions, one can only judge a religion by the behavior of its members. And Islam is a deathcult by my judgement. Do I here any Muslims saying otherwise???? [crickets]

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 20, 2006 at 12:16 PM

The two schools of thought here seem to be:

1) You’re a lunatic and a fringe dweller if you feel Obamas background should be at vetted…

Obama wasn’t in the Texas National Guard as far as I know so what would be the point of looking into his background?

You know, the more I think about it the more it seems to me that Obama is being set up for failure by the Democrats.

The Dems keep selecting white candidates who claim to be the first, second, etc. black president and at some point blacks will notice that these crackers aren’t black and will start to wonder why no black Democrat can collect more than one or two percent of the votes in the Democrat Primaries.

That and the fact that the last Republican President chose blacks to fill some of the most important positions in the administration will force the Democrats to at least pretend that they are behind a black candidate, even if it’s one who is descended from slave traders rather than slaves.

The Democrats just want the Obama charade to last a few states into the primaries before it all falls apart and they can say they tried…so you see, it’s actually all a left-wing conspiracy rather than a right-wing conspiracy:)

Perchant on December 20, 2006 at 1:50 PM

Oh puh-leeze. There is no such thing as Islam the belief system and Islam the practice. Islam is defined as the behavior of its adherents. Just as for ALL religions, one can only judge a religion by the behavior of its members. And Islam is a deathcult by my judgement. Do I here any Muslims saying otherwise???? [crickets]

Way to cut the knot, Alexander.

Now are you going to set yourself up as arbiter of which Muslims are members of deathcult and which ones aren’t? Are you going to condemn all 1 billion+ Muslims based on your observations — and to be germane to the topic at hand, are you going to condemn those who *might be* Muslims as well?

Be careful where your answers lead you.

Il Padrino on December 20, 2006 at 1:56 PM

one can only judge a religion by the behavior of its members

I disagree. I fail to live up to my religious standards frequently. Doesn’t mean the religion is to blame.

The behavior of those Westboro “Baptist” folks does not define the Baptist or Christian faith.

mikeyboss on December 20, 2006 at 2:55 PM

Schlussel: Is Obama a Muslim manchurian candidate?

Hmmm, well I dunno….Here’s another interesting question:

Is Schlussel as crazy as a shithouse rat?

Talk amongst yourselves…

honora on December 20, 2006 at 3:24 PM

He’s too liberal for me. As for the rest, I think it’s pretty far out on the limb. I worry more about Hillary.

KennyB on December 20, 2006 at 3:45 PM

The behavior of those Westboro “Baptist” folks does not define the Baptist or Christian faith.

mikeyboss

There is nothing in the teachings of Christ that reflects from the Westboro folks but there is everything of the teachings of Muhammad that reflects from the al qaeda folks.

Perchant on December 20, 2006 at 3:47 PM

Let me make my point and why:

We are not at war with all Muslims. We are at war with a few extremist Muslims who have gone militant. Because of this we shouldn’t sweep all 1.4 billion Muslims under one rug. I know many Muslims who do not want to destroy America or decapitate non-believers (gasp!). Simply because someone has a Muslim name does not mean that they are sympathetic to or under the control of the few extremist Muslims. To think otherwise is racist. Asking questions is fine, but accusing someone of being a “Manchurian” candidate is libel.

Nonfactor on December 20, 2006 at 4:14 PM

Now are you going to set yourself up as arbiter of which

Muslims are members of deathcult and which ones aren’t? Are you going to condemn all 1 billion+ Muslims based on your observations — and to be germane to the topic at hand, are you going to condemn those who *might be* Muslims as well?

Be careful where your answers lead you.

Il Padrino on December 20, 2006 at 1:56 PM

Arbiter? WTF? I said I judge a religion by its adherents. Do I hear morally outraged muslims saying ANYTHING in this greatest free country on Earth AGAINST the jihadis? No.

Furthermore, of course there are moral muslims, silly. So obviously I’m not gonna “condemn” all 1.2 billion. Okay, clue in, I’m making a JUDGEMENT about ISLAM’s followers, not individual muslims. But, if the vasr majority of muslims is not moral outrage, what kind of morals do they have?

The rest of your argument is irrelevent and too PC.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 20, 2006 at 4:28 PM

I disagree. I fail to live up to my religious standards frequently. Doesn’t mean the religion is to blame.

The behavior of those Westboro “Baptist” folks does not define the Baptist or Christian faith.

Wrong. You don’t understand what I mean. I’m talking about the vast majority of followers of a religion. What is their moral compass? Just like out society has a moral compass. The vast majority of Americans condemn murder, but there are individual murderers in our country. Same for religion.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 20, 2006 at 4:33 PM

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 20, 2006 at 4:28 PM

So what does that have to do with Obama? He isn’t a Muslim.

Nonfactor on December 20, 2006 at 4:33 PM

So what does that have to do with Obama? He isn’t a Muslim.

Nonfactor on December 20, 2006 at 4:33

Ah, but his middle name is Hussein. (Yes I know it’s idiocy, but there you are).

honora on December 20, 2006 at 4:41 PM

Obama is a phoney all the way through. He is full of platitudes to charm the people who hate politics. You can know enough about him by knowing that he votes against everything a conservative would support.

Debbie Schlussel has done a yeoman service in writing about Islamic Jihad in the U.S. especially in the lower Michigan area. If she’s worried about what Obama’s middle name signals in terms of real allegiance, then maybe it’s a question that should be explored.

Let’s try not to character-assassinate our friends, shall we?

Margaret McC on December 20, 2006 at 5:19 PM

Ah, the resident leftard vomited:

Ah, but his middle name is Hussein. (Yes I know it’s idiocy, but there you are).

honora on December 20, 2006 at 4:41 PM

Learn to read, before you post.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 20, 2006 at 5:27 PM

So what does that have to do with Obama? He isn’t a Muslim.

Nonfactor on December 20, 2006 at 4:33 PM

No one attends a madrassa that isn’t. Clue-in, he’s a muslim.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 20, 2006 at 5:29 PM

“I know many Muslims who do not want to destroy America or decapitate non-believers (gasp!).”

I don’t believe them. They’re probably telling you just what you want to hear. Where are these “moderate” and “non-violent” muslims? Why don’t they speak out? Could it be their loyalty is to islam and not the US?

“We are at war with a few extremist Muslims who have gone militant.”

Then why don’t the remaining 999,999,000 muslims clean house and kick their ass? I mean, according to you they’re more outnumbered than Custer was.

darwin on December 20, 2006 at 6:08 PM

No one attends a madrassa that isn’t. Clue-in, he’s a muslim.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 20, 2006 at 5:29 PM

So you think that because he attended a madrassa for a bit as a child he has somehow become indoctrinated to the extremist Muslim belief system? And you think that because he attended something he had no control over he should thus be labeled as a “Manchurian candidate” for militant Muslims? Give me a break.

I don’t believe them. They’re probably telling you just what you want to hear.

Simple question first: do you know any Muslims? I can guarantee you that 1.4 billion people in this world do not want to destroy the United States and Israel, they aren’t all lying. I know people from Iran, Turkey, all parts of the middle east, even parts of Russia who are Muslim; I’m very good friends with some of them, and I know they aren’t “telling me what I want to hear,” when I talk politics with them.

Why don’t they speak out?

I take it “because they don’t want to,” won’t be a good enough answer for you? But the truth is they don’t have a stage to speak out. Muslims I know say that these extremists make Islam look bad. When Muslims do get the stage what happens? Ask Rep. Ellison and Glen Beck. A majority of black/white/etc. people don’t speak out when their race is portrayed badly in a movie or when their race does something stupid, it doesn’t mean that they agree with what they’re doing.

Then why don’t the remaining 999,999,000 muslims clean house and kick their ass?

Are you seriously asking why the majority of Muslims don’t “kick the asses” of the militant Muslims?

Good luck man. Get out some and at least try and meet a few Muslims. They aren’t as evil as you think.

Nonfactor on December 20, 2006 at 6:40 PM

So you think that because he attended a madrassa for a bit as a child he has somehow become indoctrinated to the extremist Muslim belief system? And you think that because he attended something he had no control over he should thus be labeled as a “Manchurian candidate” for militant Muslims?

He attended for two years. Facts are important. Indoctrinated? Oh no, not at all. I mean, madrassa’s are after all just for religious training. No extremism is taught there.

Simple question first: do you know any Muslims? I can guarantee you that 1.4 billion people in this world do not want to destroy the United States and Israel, they aren’t all lying. I know people from Iran, Turkey, all parts of the middle east, even parts of Russia who are Muslim; I’m very good friends with some of them, and I know they aren’t “telling me what I want to hear,” when I talk politics with them.

I know muslims. I also work with them. You are very naive and ignorant if you think 1.2 billion muslims don’t wanna destroy Israel. I will grant you there are probably a handful of muslims that don’t want to. But most do. Ever heard of taqqiya? Or a hudna? Fill you brain with knowledge not PC bs.

I take it “because they don’t want to,” won’t be a good enough answer for you? But the truth is they don’t have a stage to speak out. Muslims I know say that these extremists make Islam look bad. When Muslims do get the stage what happens? Ask Rep. Ellison and Glen Beck. A majority of black/white/etc. people don’t speak out when their race is portrayed badly in a movie or when their race does something stupid, it doesn’t mean that they agree with what they’re doing.

Correct, it is not good enough. The muslims you know may say that, but they agree with the goals, not necessarily the means. Oh puh-leeeze, if muslims spoke out against the “small minority of extremists”, Americans would love it. Stop whining about muslims being victims, its stupid and pathetic.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 20, 2006 at 6:57 PM

He attended for two years. Facts are important. Indoctrinated? Oh no, not at all. I mean,

You act as if he had a choice in the matter (didn’t he attend a Catholic school as well?), and then you base your entire conspiracy on the supposition that he was indoctrinated by extremist Muslims.

I know muslims. I also work with them. You are very naive and ignorant if you think 1.2 billion muslims don’t wanna destroy Israel.

How is that naïveté? I see by your statements that you do think more than one billion Muslims want the destruction of Israel (perhaps the U.S. as well and the decapitation of non-believers?). Why do you think this? But I’m not talking about all Muslims (I’m sure some do want the destruction of Israel) I’m talking about Muslims in America, and I’m saying that all Muslims do not want the destruction of Israel. But this shouldn’t even be an issue when talking about Obama considering the fact that he isn’t a Muslim.

but they agree with the goals, not necessarily the means.

Don’t act like you know what my friends think. You come off as ignorant.

Stop whining about muslims being victims, its stupid and pathetic.

Please, show me where I claim that Muslims are “victims.” You can re-read my post at 4:14 pm. The attitude you seem to have is that all Muslims wish the destruction of U.S. and Israel; I told you about my friends, and then you started to claim that my friends were actually lying to me. Talk about stupid and pathetic.

Nonfactor on December 20, 2006 at 7:13 PM

“I can guarantee you that 1.4 billion people in this world do not want to destroy the United States and Israel, they aren’t all lying.”

Yeah buddy … I’m keeping my powder dry, just in case.

“I take it “because they don’t want to,” won’t be a good enough answer for you? But the truth is they don’t have a stage to speak out.”

This is absolutely the most asinine answer I’ve ever heard. They have the ear of every major media outlet in the world.

“Are you seriously asking why the majority of Muslims don’t “kick the asses” of the militant Muslims?”

What, am I typing incoherently or something? That’s exactly what I’m asking. It’s a damn serious question that deserves a damn serious reply which you obviously don’t want to answer.

darwin on December 20, 2006 at 8:46 PM

This is absolutely the most asinine answer I’ve ever heard. They have the ear of every major media outlet in the world.

Is this kind of like the “Jews control the media” line or am I seeing something more into this? What do you mean Muslims have the ear of every major media outlet in the world? Can they just call up CNN and get on a live feed or something? What would denouncing them solve? I don’t publicly denounce black people when they do something I don’t agree with (I’m black), and I don’t plan to–why? Because I don’t think it’s necessary and it wouldn’t solve anything. And what does this have to do with Obama; he isn’t a Muslim?

What, am I typing incoherently or something? That’s exactly what I’m asking. It’s a damn serious question that deserves a damn serious reply which you obviously don’t want to answer.

I didn’t answer because it was the same exact statement you made earlier with a visual. You want to know why Muslims don’t step up and publicly denounce (or kick the ass of) other extremist Muslims, sorry bud, sometimes we just can’t know why people do or don’t do something. And I honestly asked if you were serious because it isn’t plausible that a majority of people from one religion physically kick the asses of extremists of the same religion (who happen to be armed).

Your questions of “why” are meaningless considering that I’m not a Muslim and can’t seriously answer you.

Nonfactor on December 20, 2006 at 9:08 PM

I can’t believe this got bumped off the front page instead of being moved over to toppicks.

EF on December 20, 2006 at 10:09 PM

“What would denouncing them solve?”

What would denouncing the horrific and violent acts muslims have visited upon mankind solve? Are you for real? Lay off the booze and try prescription drugs.

“I don’t publicly denounce black people when they do something I don’t agree with (I’m black)”

Why not? Yeah, nevermind, I understand. Bill Cosby tried to interject some common sense and I saw what happened to him.

I didn’t answer because it was the same exact statement you made earlier with a visual. You want to know why Muslims don’t step up and publicly denounce (or kick the ass of) other extremist Muslims, sorry bud, sometimes we just can’t know why people do or don’t do something. And I honestly asked if you were serious because it isn’t plausible that a majority of people from one religion physically kick the asses of extremists of the same religion (who happen to be armed).

Your questions of “why” are meaningless considering that I’m not a Muslim and can’t seriously answer you.

I seriously can’t believe I’m reading this. Look, just stay out of the way, keep your head in the sand and we’ll let you know when it’s safe to come out.

Oh yeah … don’t ever run for any political office.

darwin on December 20, 2006 at 10:26 PM

Just a quick set of questions for AllahPundit and the few who still have some critical thinking skills on this issue, which limits the pool severely, apparently:

Since we (or actually just me–Debbie Schlussel) are now not allowed to judge people by their names-that’s now strictly not allowed by these few minor pundit police who are mad I’d dare note Barack Obama’s middle name, are you now going to condemn Mark Steyn? After all, Steyn’s book that Allah lauded–as did this illogical “ex”-Nation of Islam follower Baldilocks (whose site I never heard of until today, but who apparently loves Steyn and his comments about Muslim names)–is full of lamentations about people named Mohammed and Mahmoud being terrorists-Steyn points out several with those specific names. And he constantly laments the growing lists of countries and cities in Europe where Mohammed is the most popular new baby name. Why would he do that? That’s “bigoted” and “racist” (Islam’s now a race?) by the new standards now unilaterally imposed on me by these few holier than thou sites, including those two linked above, who’ve appointed themselves the Muslim PC police. After all, we can’t judge people by their Muslim names, right? Shame on you, Mark Steyn. That’s intolerant, just like Schlussel, right?. And while you’re at it, you might as well condemn Mark about noting the Muslim birth rates in Europe (something I’ve also written about for years), b/c why is that a problem? We can’t judge people based on their religion like Debbie Schlussel did, right?

Allah, just asking. The sites you linked to with approval about my post have the same illogic as you on this issue. So should I tell Mark Steyn, you were really lying when you said you liked his book–b/c isn’t that whole “judging people by their Muslim names” thing is just far-fetched? I mean “aren’t you skeptical in the extreme with the reasoning and the conclusions” of Steyn in judging these people named Mohammed?

Again, just asking. And I suppose Drudge is also a racist, too, b/c he posted a story on how Mohammed is now the most popular UK name for a baby. Why should we care? That there is even a story is racist and bigoted, right? We can’t judge people by their Muslim names. That’s just wrong.

Debbie Schlussel on December 20, 2006 at 11:23 PM

Gee, Debs, I’m shocked you’re not threatening to sue because Allahpundit had the temerity to link you.

Let’s use your own “logic,” Ms. Schlusselupagus.

Your last name, Schlussel, has a decidedly Germanic ring to it.

Is it not safe for us to assume, then, that you may be a Nazi? Or at the very least, a sympathizer?

Because, according to you, we are all allowed to judge someone by their name.

Vinnie on December 20, 2006 at 11:51 PM

Oh, Debbie, Debbie, Debbie…you never fail to amuse.

Speaking of lacking critical thinking skills, you moron, Baldilocks wasn’t a member of the Nation of Islam. Her parents were, YEARS ago.

I guess all the black men and women (and children!) in America with Muslim-sounding names (Aisha being a very popular one) are all now terrorists or sympathizers now, aren’t they? HA! And I guess all of the black Americans who have African names are now real Africans, too? How about those named…John Smith? Are they really Englishmen?

And yeah…Schlussel…sounds awfully German to me. Let me guess, you’re a Jewish Nazi sympathizer?

Idiot. Aren’t Obama’s left-of-Pelosi-and-Kennedy politics ENOUGH? You must have so little faith in your own political views that you have to resort to this risible nonsense. Pathetic. Next I suppose you’ll be saying he would declare war on the British–what with him being of Kenyan descent. You know, that Mau Mau is just IN HIS BLOOD. “One drop,” etc. etc.

P.S. My last name is Cleaver–OMG! I guess that makes me a Black Panther!!! Call the FBI!
(Oh wait, I forgot–the FBI sympathizes with terrorists too, right?)

Debbie Schlussel: The “Truther” of the Paranoid Extreme Right.

bamapachyderm on December 21, 2006 at 1:21 AM

Also, comparing yourself to Mark Steyn is, frankly, an enormous stretch. Delusional. LOL!!!

bamapachyderm on December 21, 2006 at 1:24 AM

Since we (or actually just me–Debbie Schlussel) are now not allowed to judge people by their names-that’s now strictly not allowed by these few minor pundit police who are mad I’d dare note Barack Obama’s middle name, are you now going to condemn Mark Steyn?

Condemn seems a bit harsh, but I’ve certainly deprecated him. The eloquence and humor in his opinions do not abate their odiousness.

As for your post:

- Arabic does not equal Muslim
- Muslim does not equal terrorist
- One’s faith is not defined by someone else’s view of what it should be
- People should be judged by their words and their actions, not their name or their heritage

I’d certainly never vote for him, but I don’t need to stoop to questioning of his loyalty to this country to make that decision.

Mark Jaquith on December 21, 2006 at 3:55 AM

“I’d certainly never vote for him, but I don’t need to stoop to questioning of his loyalty to this country to make that decision.”

If we can’t even contemplate the possibility that his past muslim experiences may have the ability to influence future decisions … or his loyalty, then why the hell do we even care anymore? Let anyone run for political office and give them carte blanche.

“Muslim does not equal terrorist”

With everything that has happened and will probably continue to happen with ever increasing frequency … “muslim” most certainly equals terrorist. The tacit approval by the worldwide muslim population leaves a rational person no choice but to be wary of all.

“People should be judged by their words and their actions, not their name or their heritage”

Exactly … I’ve heard the words (or lack of), witnessed the actions (or lack of) and conclude that anything touched by the cult of islam must be looked upon with a critical and wary eye. That’s not saying one can’t be examined and found to be free of islamic influence, but it’s better to have questioned than not at all.

darwin on December 21, 2006 at 8:04 AM

Gee, Debs, I’m shocked you’re not threatening to sue because Allahpundit had the temerity to link you.

Let’s use your own “logic,” Ms. Schlusselupagus.

Your last name, Schlussel, has a decidedly Germanic ring to it.

Is it not safe for us to assume, then, that you may be a Nazi? Or at the very least, a sympathizer?

Because, according to you, we are all allowed to judge someone by their name.

Vinnie on December 20, 2006 at 11:51 PM

Newsflash for Vinnie: America defeated the Nazis over 60 years ago. Germans aren’t the enemy anymore.

So, how f’ing stupid are you? We are at war with a people that will do anything for the ummah. Apparently you are completely ignorant of the nature of this enemy.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 21, 2006 at 12:44 PM

- Arabic does not equal Muslim

True.

- Muslim does not equal terrorist

Wrong. Now we move on to double jeopardy where the stakes are, oh say, your life. Muslim equals follower Mohammad and the Koran. Koran equals sharia law. Sharia law equals slavery or death to infidels. Infidel equals Christian or Jew. You know nothing of the nature of the enemy.

- One’s faith is not defined by someone else’s view of what it should be

No. But its defined by the people or barbarians that practice it.

- People should be judged by their words and their actions, not their name or their heritage

Ohhh, almost. But I’ll give you partial credit. People should be judged only by their actions. No muslim outrage at terrorism equals moral corruption. Moral corruption equals sick bastards.

So by the property of transitivity your argument is total crap.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 21, 2006 at 12:50 PM

- Arabic does not equal Muslim

True.

- Muslim does not equal terrorist

Wrong. Now we move on to double jeopardy where the stakes are, oh say, your life. Muslim equals follower Mohammad and the Koran. Koran equals sharia law. Sharia law equals slavery or death to infidels. Infidel equals Christian or Jew. You know nothing of the nature of the enemy.

- One’s faith is not defined by someone else’s view of what it should be

No. But its defined by the people or barbarians that practice it.

- People should be judged by their words and their actions, not their name or their heritage

Ohhh, almost. But I’ll give you partial credit. People should be judged only by their actions. No muslim outrage at terrorism equals moral corruption. Moral corruption equals sick b@st@rds.

So by the property of transitivity your argument is total bs.

Andy in Agoura Hills on December 21, 2006 at 12:52 PM

Andy’s argument:

All Muslims are terrorists. All people with Arabic names should be questioned because they might be sympathetic to terrorists.

Nobody is taking you seriously, buddy.

Nonfactor on December 21, 2006 at 4:08 PM

Uh, you are the one no one takes seriously, nonfactor.

EF on December 21, 2006 at 7:52 PM

Schlussel is nuts. I have zero respect for anything she writes or has to say. And this BS has no real proof so once again there is no credibility from what she writes.

Obama is scum just being a liberal, he doesn’t even need more fuel added to his bio. Being a liberal is enough for me to not like him.

Wild Thing on December 22, 2006 at 12:30 AM

[Debbie]

… he [Steyn] constantly laments the growing lists of countries and cities in Europe where Mohammed is the most popular new baby name. Why would he do that?

The money quote: “It’s the demography, stupid.”

[Vinnie]

Let’s use your own “logic,” Ms. Schlusselupagus [Roman?]. Your last name, Schlussel, has a decidedly Germanic ring to it.

Is it not safe for us to assume, then, that you may be a Nazi? Or at the very least, a sympathizer? Because, according to you, we are all allowed to judge someone by their name.

Her position is what it is; no need to caricature it further by (1) glossing over the difference between a given name and a family name, (2) equating making judgments of any kind to making “safe assumptions” or (3) confusing a case of mistaken identity with the real thing.

On #1 – Debbie’s “logic” – keep in mind that she is opposing a categorical negative: “not allowed to judge people by their [Muslim] names” means NO names are allowed, so the opposite is not necessarily *all* names or *any* name. To be fair, we ought to check the examples she provides.

I did; it turns out that both she & Steyn deal primarily with first or “given” names. When we compare apples to apples the idea isn’t nearly so ridiculous as your conjecture implies: her first name, Deborah, is a Hebrew name; Nazi parents did not, as a rule, give their children Hebrew names; therefore it’s extremely unlikely her family background was Nazi. Nothing ridiculous in that judgment whatsoever.

Debora – Deba, Deborah, Debby, Debra; 21.09.
hebräisch; emsige Biene

On #2: Debbie’s “logic” does not request blanket permission to make “safe assumptions” about anyone or anything, it requests the removal of a blanket taboo that anything be concluded whatsoever. The conclusion that a child born in Germany in the 1930′s named Zachariah was not destined for the Hitler Youth is a good example of where a warranted conclusion ought not be prevented by the kind of blanket taboo suggested by your ridicule.

Having said that, of course I condemn the the pseudo-science of “namerology”, where people determine a person’s stool softness, ticklish zones and favorite color based on their name. And I’ll agree that whoever believes in that is kooky; but identity is a different matter entirely. I condemn idol-worship of names as much as the next guy; it’s what’s behind the name that interests me (though I can’t speak for Debbie or anyone else). The Baraka Husseins of the world – like the Mohammed babies of Steyn’s article – didn’t just name themselves. Like it or not, [one-time] Muslim identity is embodied in the name. Did Mrs. Obama ever consider naming her son Peter or George? Why did the parents bestow on their child a Muslim name, the very embodiment of Muslim identity[, apartheid and supremacy]?

[Beth]

I guess all the black men and women (and children!) in America with Muslim-sounding names (Aisha being a very popular one) are all now terrorists or sympathizers now, aren’t they? HA!

No, nor do they have Muslim identities, so they’re not the issue. And to mistake one for the other would be idiotic like you suggest. But there is no case of mistaken identity here. We are not looking at the son of black American parents, who might be just as apt to name their boy Carlos or Kwame as they are Jamal (or their girl Keisha vs. Aisha); we’re dealing with a nominally Christian white American parent and a sub-Sarahan African Muslim parent, and we know that we are. No Arab Christians here either, and we know that too. The only identity matching his name is a Muslim one.

That this identity is telegraphed to the whole Muslim world via the media, and that at some point Obama would be forced to deal with it, may be lost on you but it isn’t on the umma – and therefore it is worth discussing. The concern isn’t without precedent either; Lackawanna and Mike Hawash are emblematic of a wider susceptibility to the appeal of Muslim identity that causes abrupt psychic changes in otherwise rational people.

But like I said in an earlier post, this is a “fringe” concern. My real worry is that he has never confronted his family’s identity in the way that Walid Shoebat or Ali Sina have, doesn’t understand his vulnerability to the charge of apostasy, and thus won’t be fully prepared to deal with it when the time comes. Maybe my worry is unfounded. But only Obama himself has the power (and I dare say the obligation) to understand where he fits into the big picture and bring clarity to his own situation as eloquently and forcefully as do Shoebat, Sina, Wafa Sultan or Ayaan Hirsi Ali on a regular basis.

RD on December 22, 2006 at 3:25 PM

I know that no one besides you, Debbie Schlussel, will read this, since I’m responding a few weeks after you have.

The fact that you’ve never head of me before has no bearing on my logic WRT your bigotry toward those with Arabic names who may or may not be Muslim. Nor does anything else in your comment above. Face it: you’re a bigot. It’s understandable–what with those who are of that double culture who want to kill those of us who are not. I’ve even admitted to much of my bigotry toward Arab Muslims on my site when the UAE ports issue was in the news. (Not to mention how Arab Muslims have treated black Africans over the past several centuries.)

The problem with you, Ms. Schussel, is that you view your bigotry as a feature rather than a bug.

baldilocks on January 4, 2007 at 12:04 AM

Baldilocks, did you see my paragraph above?

We are not looking at the son of black American parents … we’re dealing with a nominally Christian white American parent and a sub-Sarahan African Muslim parent, and we know that we are. No Arab Christians here either, and we know that too. The only identity matching his name is a Muslim one.

That this identity is telegraphed to the whole Muslim world via the media, and that at some point Obama would be forced to deal with it, may be lost on you but it isn’t on the umma – and therefore it is worth discussing.

The point being, no one besides Muslims, Arabs and modern-day American blacks – for whom (and for no one else) it became fashionable to give their Christian children names that are found all over Africa – give their children Arabic names. For American blacks, that gesture might be incidental; but that was not the case during the entire history of our respective civilizations. When any other society names their child with an Arabic name, it means only one of two things: either (1) they’re Arab or (2) they’re Muslim.

As it applies to Baraka Hussein Obama: we know he isn’t an Arab, or from American black parentage. We also know he didn’t just name himself; someone named him. (It happens to be his father’s name, so nothing nefarious here necessarily.) But significant? You bet.

It’s clear his mother didn’t assert any Christian identity with regards to his name, not even a middle name; nor did she appear to assert any Christian identity when he was sent to madrassa instead of the American School at Kuala Lumpur, and raised under two different Muslim heads of household, until middle school.

Not until he was returned to Hawaii and raised by his maternal grandparents did his environmental influences revert to what we Americans consider, and should consider, “normal”.

RD on January 20, 2007 at 12:14 PM

I know that this comment may not be read, RD–due to it being posted many months later–but thank you for paying attention to the finer points of the issue(s).

baldilocks on August 15, 2007 at 11:43 PM

Comment pages: 1 2