Study: How many U.S. troops are you willing to see die in Iraq?
posted at 3:46 pm on December 18, 2006 by Allahpundit
The median answer is 500; the most common answer is zero. The numbers fluctuate according to whether the U.S. is thought of as winning, the number of enemy casualties inflicted, and, er…
Boettcher thinks partisan loyalties play a powerful role in shaping how people think about casualties.
“Casualty unacceptability is only somewhat related to the number of actual casualties,” Boettcher and Cobb said in a joint e-mail. “If you oppose the war, dislike President Bush, are a Democrat, would like to increase troops, would like to decrease troops etc… you may find casualties unacceptable without having any knowledge of the actual number.”
I’ve always wanted to ask Michael Moore how many Americans would have to die for us to atone for our many, many sins. How many casualties would an enemy need to inflict before he considered the scales “balanced”? Presumably there’s a number. Osama’s got one. Why not Mikey?









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How many US civilians must die before we consider ourselve at war ?
William Amos on December 18, 2006 at 3:53 PM
How many must we kill to win?
blogRot on December 18, 2006 at 3:55 PM
I prefer the George Patton school of leadership.
VikingGoneWild on December 18, 2006 at 3:59 PM
Sadly, there is no limit as the left would say that any attack on us is our fault (or the fault of the current administration) and we should just try to understand why they dislike us and change our polocies accordingy.
jman on December 18, 2006 at 4:04 PM
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to a soldier (or civilian, for that matter). Attempting to live in a country controlled by Jihadists is FAR, FAR worse than death.
CyberCipher on December 18, 2006 at 4:05 PM
We lost more Americans to murder in New York State last year than we did in Iraq. Maybe we should pull out of NY.
Personally I think we should go after the people who murder others… but then, I’m not a democrat.
Jones Zemkophill on December 18, 2006 at 4:11 PM
I realize it won’t sell papers but it might be helpful to put the number of military deaths during a period of war in context with the number who die in peace time.
Take a look.
JackStraw on December 18, 2006 at 4:14 PM
Just the question alone is a sign of ignornce. We *DON’T* *WANT* *ANY* of our Troops to die. We want our Troops to KILL! We want them to kill jihadis! This enemy is determined to kill you, your wife, your mom, your dad, your kids and your dog in their attempt to recreate the world domination they once enjoyed (looooong before any of these koranimals were born) under their caliph. Now, I know you libs out there are rollin’ your eyes and sayin’ “pppfffftttt” and that’s exactly what they want you to do. And one day you’ll finally wake up, turn off your XBox, look around you and say “Look at what’s happened here. It must be all Bush’s fault! We need to fight back” I just hope it’s not too late by then.
Tony737 on December 18, 2006 at 4:21 PM
Well, now that’s interesting because Mikey would very likely say “0″ if asked in a general sense – being that they are just “kids” being sent to fight some greedy white guy’s made-up war; but if followed-up with a question regarding his thoughts on jihadis killing our troops, he’d probably respond by saying our troops deserve to die for the atrocities they have committed.
Rick on December 18, 2006 at 4:42 PM
I thought I knew what I wanted to say until I saw this post. There is no pat answer on war. Some of the nastiest things I have heard said about Bush came from an isolationist, anti-semitic right winger who simply doesn’t believe that a drop of American military blood should spill away from our soil.
Jonesy, your sentiments give a strange perspective. A few years ago, Chicago law enforcement types were talking about treating the local gangster scum like the Feds treat terrorists. They are terrorists. The Marines ought to be going through the south side of Chicago, door to door like Fallujah.
But the whole concept of suggesting that 500 lives in a war are too many, or that 499 lives is ok? Neither one makes any sense to me…
Jaibones on December 18, 2006 at 4:50 PM
This is very much like the question, “So senator, have you stopped beating your wife yet?”
And it is squarely targeted at those who support the war.
techno_barbarian on December 18, 2006 at 4:57 PM
Tony:
I think you misunderstood the question. They didn’t ask “How many American troops do you want to die?” Nor was that attitude implicit in their question. They merely wanted to know how many troops people were willing to see die before they conclude that the war isn’t worth the sacrifice of human lives.
Now, I understand that you believe winning this war is a lot more important than most liberals acknowledge, but surely you agree that there is some limit to the number of American lives we should sacrifice. It might be a high limit, but say the number of American casualties hit 10 thousand, or a 100 thousand, or maybe a million. Surely at some point you too would conclude that the war isn’t worth it any more. That’s all these researchers were trying to determine (as well as how peoples’ judgment of this limit changes with how the question is framed).
I thought it was a fairly interesting study, although the way some of the conclusions were phrased in this article made them sound pretty banal:
Well, duh… People change their opinion on the number of acceptable casualties based on the importance and likelihood of victory. Stop the presses.
Jazzman on December 18, 2006 at 5:02 PM
However many it takes to win.
infidel on December 18, 2006 at 5:03 PM
How true. Closer to topic, we lost more American civilians last year to murder by illegal aliens than all the military personnel we’ve lost in Iraq and Afghanistan since 9/11. In fact, we’ve lost more Americans to murder by illegals EACH OF THE LAST TEN YEARS, than all combat-related American deaths over the last five years.
In addition to murders, last year we lost more American civilians (and off-duty servicemen) to illegal aliens driving drunk than were killed by the terrorist attack on 9/11/01.
So, before I would entertain the titled question, I would demand an answer from everyone on the left to the more significant question, “How many American civilians are you willing to see die here at home due to failure to enforce standing immigration laws?”
Beyond that, the callous but proper answer is however many is required, AND NOT ONE MORE, to secure total victory. Our military equipment, skills, and tactics are such that we will ALWAYS enjoy a very high casualty ratio against available foes in field combat situations. If the ridiculous rules-of-engagement shackles are removed so that our brave combat troops can do their job to the fullest, it will SAVE LIVES, both American and Iraqi, and in very short order.
Freelancer on December 18, 2006 at 5:06 PM
Freelancer, I always appreciate your point of view and way with words. My sentiments exactly.
NTWR on December 18, 2006 at 5:12 PM
I hasten to add that, given the level of ignorance reported on in the survey results, most people questioned probably think we’re still at war AGAINST Iraq. That was over and done in less than three months. Now we are an occupying force helping Iraq through the creation of a constitutional government, and supporting their nation against a powerful internal/external insurgency.
Freelancer on December 18, 2006 at 5:13 PM
You are absolutely right. To this day, it baffles me as to why this distinction is not made by the administration. I believe the November elections would have turned out very different if the public were more aware of that fact. The Dems and detractors have been hammering away about the “Iraq War”, and nobody’s even made an effort to clarify this.
Rick on December 18, 2006 at 5:46 PM
I’m not sure there’s an actual number that would give me pause. But if we lose this war and our soldiers who have already lost their lives die in vain (sp?) then it will have been too many.
pullingmyhairout on December 18, 2006 at 5:52 PM
I don’t like this question. Too many dubious assumptions underlie it. I prefer this question:
Q: How many jihadis are you willing to see die in Iraq?
A: All of them.
Tantor on December 18, 2006 at 6:04 PM
Perfect answer.
How many people are we willing to see die in automobiles before we take them away, how many drunks beating children before we outlaw alcolhol, how many people going broke before we decide business is bad? “The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.”
Stupid, stupid, STUPID question.
right2bright on December 18, 2006 at 6:22 PM
I personally would not like one my life lost but that isn’t being realistic. What the main question we should be asking is “What is Our Freedom Worth Longterm?” Freelancer’s postswere right on the mark. I see more death in this country non war related at all than all the deaths in the last 3 wars totally. Look how many die needlessly just from highway deaths, wrong drug prescriptions, and from drug killings on a regular basis besides all the illegals who create more deaths needlessly. If we are going to war to Win, than I think you can’t put a number on it. If you want it a political war, lets leave tomarrow ans start buiulding our bunkers now here at home because that’s exactly going to happen.
bones47 on December 18, 2006 at 6:24 PM
How many casualties are “acceptable?” That depends.
Example #1: The “acceptable casualties” question loomed large with the Clinton Administration when it engaged in Sudan/Afghanistan, Bosnia/Serbia/Kosovo and Operation Desert Fox. And their answer was clear: Zero, or as close to zero as possible.
That’s why, in the 1990s, we relied almost entirely on sea-launched cruise missiles and aircraft dropping precision-guided munitions from 15,000 feet. Didn’t want the other guys to be able to hit back. Remember how long it took for the Army to “deploy” troops to the fighting in Kosovo? Even a few Apache attack helicopters took weeks to get there … and that was on purpose. The administration was in no hurry to expose ground troops to hostile fire.
Why did the Clinton arrive at the figure of “zero” for “acceptable casualties?” The answer is twofold:
1. Clinton was extremely sensitive about his Vietnam draft-dodging, so he was also extremely hesitant to risk battle casualties as commander-in-chief lest charges of hypocrisy be leveled at him. Clinton himself has said as much.
2. The Clinton administration generally didn’t bother to gain the approval of the Senate or the American people for its military engagements (not to mention that of the United Nations); as a result, without building up a clear consensus for war with the Senate or the American people, the administration couldn’t afford anything more than a few casualties without risking a political backlash (especially after the Republicans gained control of Congress in 1994).
Lesson to be learned from this experience? The number of “acceptable casualties” is directly linked to how well the administration – any administration – has prepared the Congress and the American public to be prepared to accept casualties. Americans have shown throughout their history that they will put up with scores of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of combat deaths when they clearly understand that the stakes are high enough; even when our national survival wasn’t at stake, we took more than 50,000 battle deaths in Korea and Vietnam before the public began to seriously demand an end to those two conflicts.
Example #2: This is where the current administration has clearly failed in getting the message to the American people about the stakes involved in the current struggle. For after suffering in nearly four years of fighting battle deaths that were little more than a day’s work at the Normandy beaches, a large portion of the American public has become convinced that even 3,000 combat deaths are “not worth it.”
The as-of-late aversion of the American people to sustain large-scale casualties is thus the product of two administrations’ approaches to not preparing them for high casualties: The Clinton administration didn’t even bother trying, and the Bush administration never could come up with a coherent message in the face of media and democrat hostility.
Spurius Ligustinus on December 18, 2006 at 6:30 PM
Crap like this freakin enrages me. Whenever I get into a “discussion” with a wacko lib about this I ask them the following – “Do you have any freakin idea how many Americans were murdered in OUR COUNTRY last year? Of course they have no idea. Most libs that I know live the good life and think that the social welfare programs that their favorite wacko lib raise your taxes and save the world politicians fund really work. After the Jeopardy music ends I tell them – 16,700+. This is actually below average for the past several years. I then remind them that most of these murders take place in major cities that are governed by Libs like YOU. I then ask them – how many murders are acceptable? Why haven’t the Liberal Democrat Mayors of these cities done anything to stop this??? So since the war in Iraq began there have been over 50,000 Americans murdered.
In the past 2 weeks in the Baltimore area 3 Police officers have been shot and more than 12 people murdered. Why isn’t Michael Moore and his gang counting this and WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?
iam7545 on December 18, 2006 at 7:19 PM
How many cops are we willing to lose in the line of duty?
Perchant on December 18, 2006 at 9:21 PM
Learn from history, or be cursed to repeat it.
E L Frederick (Sniper One) on December 18, 2006 at 9:57 PM
Ask, how many more will have to die if we keep putting off the enevitable? They declared war on us in 1979 and so far, we have just shrugged our shoulders as they strengthened and grew.
The longer we wait to destroy them, the harder it will be.
“Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.”– Winston Churchill Speech made in the House of Commons as the Battle Britain peaked on August 20, 1940.
Freedom isn’t free and must be paid for with the blood of the brave and courageous.
LewWaters on December 18, 2006 at 11:34 PM
Tantor nailed it. They asked the entirely wrong question.
Patton on December 19, 2006 at 12:54 AM
No casualties are acceptable, the answer is, none are acceptable.
The truth is however, in war people die. The reasons and the factors of how many, ranges wildly and has nothing to do with what anybody feels is OK because none are OK.
We feel the loss of each and every American.
Anyone who lived through Vietnam remembers the TV news screen having to scroll on a daily basis to show the names of all of the casualties.
America has greatly improved the life expectancy of our brave men and women in uniform and for that I am very grateful.
Speakup on December 19, 2006 at 1:32 AM
Jazz, OK, fine, then I steal my answer from Infidel: However many it takes (and my reason, not stolen) because if we don’t fight ‘em over there with Marines and Soldiers, THEY will fight US over HERE and we’ll hafta fight back with cops and SWAT teams and firetrucks and ambulances and EMTs and nurses.
The question should be “Which American city are you willing to see become a battleground in the jihadis’ War on America?”
“How many SWAT team members are you willing to see die before we give up and convert to islam?”
Tony737 on December 19, 2006 at 8:33 AM
Wait…what?! Freelancer, I don’t believe this for a second. I am a loud critic of our policy and practice on illegal immigration of all kinds — not just “border security” — but where on earth are you getting this information from?
Jaibones on December 19, 2006 at 9:54 AM
The Math: [ (12 + 13) x 365 = 9125 ]
We’ve lost around 3000 total since 9/11
E L Frederick (Sniper One) on December 19, 2006 at 11:41 AM
ELF,
I think Allah called “BS” on this unsubstantiated claim first, but if he didn’t — I am. I’ll let you know what Steve King’s office says when I ask them where they got their numbers.
Jaibones on December 19, 2006 at 12:04 PM
I’m cool with that. I don’t know if it’s true or not. I just pass along the information.
E L Frederick (Sniper One) on December 19, 2006 at 12:07 PM
Waiting for the call back; this should be fascinating.
Jaibones on December 19, 2006 at 12:11 PM
Btw, E L, the biggest reason I question the numbers is that I have heard of exactly one high-profile illegal alien murder story, the one in upstate New York. With all of the outrage that came out of that, I can scarcely imagine that there were 11 more that day and 12 more every day since, and nothing … anywhere?
Jaibones on December 19, 2006 at 12:13 PM
E L F, (acknowledging right off the bat that we are wildly off topic, but it seems like everyone else has moved on, anyway) I have found this piece from Heather MacDonald on FrontPage. I don’t know about you, but I won’t be challenging her on facts any time soon.
Uncle.
Jaibones on December 19, 2006 at 12:23 PM
The media is wildly… inconsistant on reporting crime, espcially when it’s a local crime, at a national level.
It’s a big nation. Very few murders ever make it to the national news. If that wasn’t the case, we would spend hours of listening to the murders for the major cities. Could you get through covering 5 murder stories per state, for the lower 48, in an hour?
25 deaths per day (atributed to illegals) for the entire lower 48 doesn’t seem so out of line to me.
I could be wrong. But then I would be surpised if we didn’t have at least 240 deaths due to crime/drunks in the lower 48 per day.
I’m pulling the idea of 5 per state per day out of my @$$.
E L Frederick (Sniper One) on December 19, 2006 at 2:57 PM
Jaibones,
I have made the same statement in numerous threads, and congratulations, you are the first to specifically question its veracity. I was strongly tempted to answer you immediately, but it was clear you were undertaking your own research of sorts, and I was willing to give it time.
Certainly the most vocal news outlet on this issue is WorldNetDaily. If you go to the WND search box on the left side of the home page and enter the words killed illegal alien you will get over 250 articles, of which about 45 are specifically concerning American deaths at the hands of “undocumented” foreigners. Try drunk alien fatality, you’ll get 8 articles, all but one from this year, and only one of those that isn’t specifically about a DUI illegal killing an American.
I first heard the numbers of approximately 3,500 illegal alien drunk driving-caused fatalities, and approximately 4,500 illegal alien-caused murders, on the Paul Harvey radio spot. I still haven’t learned what source he was quoting, but my own news-checking showed the problem to be nearly, if not completely, as large as that, so it is worthy of repeating.
Freelancer on December 19, 2006 at 4:48 PM
BTW,
He never did, or I wouldn’t repeat it without corroborating links. Allah runs the place, I wouldn’t disrespect him by doing otherwise.
Freelancer on December 19, 2006 at 4:51 PM
All….or at least convert the survivors….
Jihad is historical in Islam until all are destroyed or they all destroyed us.
Tim Burton on December 19, 2006 at 11:29 PM