There are noticeably more men involved in Protestant denominations like the Baptists, but the creep of wussification is everywhere.

Not a flame, not a whine, and not to diminish your point, but a historical truth: The protestant demonimations include such as Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc. The historical Baptists were not protestants, because they did not come out of the Catholic church.

Please do not take it the wrong way, but an argument carries more weight if it isn’t based on an error. Yes, it is part of the relative natures of men and women that women are more consistent about obedience to a sovereign God, and men are more wayward. A generalization, to be sure, but one founded upon fact.

Anyone reading here who lives in the San Diego area is welcome to come and worship Where the Shout has not died out, and I can guarantee no “wussification”, and also no phony machismo. Just people who want to serve the Savior in accordance with His word. In fact, this Friday, Saturday, and twice Sunday, our church is presenting it’s Christmas musical, “The Richest Family in Town”, and everyone is welcome.

infidel4life on December 12, 2006 at 10:38 AM

Excellent post.

The man has made a plain observation, that men are not in the churches.
naliaka on December 12, 2006 at 10:18 AM

I am sure some churches are like that, not the churches I have attended. Some of newer “hip” churches are eager to provide “equal” opportunity to all. Some of the more established churches are men driven church. But there is no doubt you would be an asset to any church, and if a women can think and organize better than a man, why not lead?

No one said Pauls work weren’t a part of the NEW TESTAMENT, duh.
The point which you are either too dense to grasp or deliberately overlooking was that the EPISTLES are written to people who ALREADY HAVE HAD A FAR GREATER EXPERIENCE WITH GOD THAN YOU HAVE. They had already done the “First works’ they were already Baptized CORRECTLY, unlike you. They had already received the REAL HOLY GHOST complete with EVIDENCE unlike the fake “Spirit” peddled in most non-pentecostal churches. IF you take a moment to actually think instead of reacting like a child because someone is showing you that you aren’t saved yet, you will possibly learn something.

Soothsayer on December 11, 2006 at 9:40 PM

I was willingly baptized as an adult, by immersion, on Easter Sunday 1982, and I have done much Bible reading and study since then. I do also speak in tongues. Your derogatory characterization of me is not only a completely false assumption, it is vindictive and judgmental, simply because I pointed out how ridiculous your argument is. I have encountered many “Christians” like you over the years, angry and judgmental, who regularly condemn their fellow believers and drive non-Christians away from the Church with their wild-eyed fanaticism. Remember the parable of the wheat and the tares? Look in the mirror.

I feel the Christan love.

The old testament has NO BEARING other than as a historic outline, to your life, NONE. In fact, READING TOO MUCH OF THE O.T. can actually BLIND you to the truths in the NEW TESTAMENT.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”Knowing the Old Testament adds a richness and depth to the understanding of the fullfillment of all prophecies. To not know it leaves one open to manipulation by those would would distort the record, and therefore cast doubt on the witness of the fulfillment as described in the New Testament.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:9

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23

Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 16:29-31

And He turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And He said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith have saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 7:44-50

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:7-9

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

Acts 2:21

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

Acts 4:10-12

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. … These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:1-4, 13

Show God that you trust Him as your Creator, and accept the sacrifice of His Son as your Redeemer. God knows every person’s heart, and He won’t be fooled by lipservice. But believe it truly, and you ARE saved. Baptism is a commanded act of obedience. It is a public declaration of your surrender to God’s authority, your choice to be identified with Him by His death, burial, and resurrection. Any person who becomes born again through faith SHOULD be baptised. But the sequence is not the other way around.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8,9

Saved by grace, not an act. Saved through faith, not baptism. Jesus’ final words on the cross were “It is finished”. The greek tetelestai is a mostly monetary phrase meaning “paid in full”. My point here is that Jesus did it all. There is nothing we can add to His work as the ransom for our soul, except to believe and accept His gift.

Claiming that an action MUST be performed adds to His finished work, and would be analogous to me trying to add something to improve on the musical work of Bach, or a small child “helping” a carpenter by adding his own touches to a delicate piece of woodwork.

But that’s what makes it such great news. You don’t have do anything, simply believe. If you do, God’s word says that he imparts to you His Holy Spirit, which will guide you into obedience. Earlier I quoted Ephesians 2:8,9. Verse 10, which too many people leave out, is “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Good works are the Christian’s duty, in loving service to the God who saved us. They do NOT create or add to our salvation, but they show Christ to others.

And Gregor, note 1 John 5:13 there, you can (and I do) KNOW that you are going to Heaven. It isn’t about what I do, but what He’s already done.

What the hell are you talking about? I have plenty of “faith.” There is absolutely nothing in my comment that indicates I have a lack of faith or lack of belief in God.

Dat one.

Goodboy and thedecider have officially taken this to full comedy hour now.

Please enlighten me oh mighty one. Which part of my post do you read as “cussing?”

Are you typing on a computer from the mental ward rec room?

I do have faults Gregor.. I do. When I was handing out food to the homeless the other day I forgot to put a can opener in a persons grocery sack.

Please try to leave the cussing out of discussions about Faith in God.. it tends to make people dismiss what you say.

The old testament has NO BEARING other than as a historic outline, to your life, NONE. In fact, READING TOO MUCH OF THE O.T. can actually BLIND you to the truths in the NEW TESTAMENT.

I really feel sorry for you now, Soothsayer. How can you begin to understand what the NT says unless you really know the OT? Here’s one example: When Jesus was about to die on the cross, he said “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” By itself that hardly means anything, but as a signal that Psalm 22 was written by God several hundred years earlier for that very moment, to say what his son could not because he was suffocating, it is simply breathtaking in its perfection. When you read that psalm in its entirety, it is a powerful statement that is the exact opposite of what the words in the NT by themselves say. Here you have the our Lord and Savior talking about his purpose on Earth in the NT, and you can’t even begin to understand it without the OT. It goes on and on throughout Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Isaiah, Jeremiah and the rest that was given to us by God to better understand our mission.

Now my point about the Greek word for baptism is that it is a great example of how difficult it is to translate what was said 2000 years ago into todays world. By 1500 AD, when the Bible was translated into English, the concept of baptism was already so controversial that they couldn’t translate it, and had to just leave the Greek word in the English text. Prior to that there was no English word baptism. It’s a simple transliteration of the Greek letters. 500 years after that you are in an even weaker position to try to use that word as a proof text, when that word is itself a statement by the translators that the Greek cannot be translated into English in a non-controversial way.

My suggestion to you is that you find a more productive outlet for your energy, one that shows the love of God towards mankind. Otherwise you may be like the sorcerer Philip who is so obsessed with the laying on of hands that he forgot what the spirit was really about.

I wish you luck” … I was responding to the following quote …

yes I know 100% that I’m going to Heaven.

GoodBoy on December 11, 2006 at 11:36 PM

No Gregor, I was right on point – you just missed it in your rush to prove YOU were the only right and correct person posting on this blog. And the fact that you completely overlooked and failed to respond to my other points indicates you are not at all confident with the very lame “leg” you’re trying to stand on. In addition, your snide remarks are highly indicative of your lack of confidence in any “point” you try to make.

The fact that you took what I wrote and attributed it to something I was not commenting on renders the entire remainder of your comment irrelivent [sp].

On the contrary, Gregor. It is quite relevant. Unfortunately, you have chosen to render our conversation pointless through your lack of ability to debate those points (i.e.: “Good luck with your 72 virgins”). A comment generating dull surprise given your lack of intelligent retort.

Really? Then explain this:

“You won’t know for sure until you are there. I wish you luck.”

thedecider on December 12, 2006 at 1:30 AM

Okay, now I’m just embarrassed for you. You just made a complete fool of yourself, but something tells me that you’re incapable of admitting it, for you know everything.

Thedecider the all-knowing.

Hey! Now I know where you got your screen name. “TheDecider.” You think you’re God.

Now … onto my point.

The fact that you took what I wrote and attributed it to something I was not commenting on renders the entire remainder of your comment irrelivent. If you bothered to read the entire conversation and my comments … you would have realized that when I wrote … “You won’t know for sure until you are there. I wish you luck” … I was responding to the following quote …

yes I know 100% that I’m going to Heaven.

GoodBoy on December 11, 2006 at 11:36 PM

I was not responding to a question about the existence of God. I was responding to a human being who feels that he “knows” without a doubt that he is going to heaven. I hate to tell you this, but when the Bible talks about “faith” it is referring to “faith in God” and not “faith in the fact that you are a fantastically special person who’s going to heaven to play poker with God and all the rest of the boys.”

On that note … everything else you wrote in that comment just makes me embarrassed for you.

What the hell are you talking about? I have plenty of “faith.” There is absolutely nothing in my comment that indicates I have a lack of faith or lack of belief in God.

Really? Then explain this:

You won’t know for sure until you are there. I wish you luck.

This is not an expression of faith. It is an expression of doubt. Plain and simple. I don’t know how you can deny it.

Do you understand the word “knowledge?” Look it up. “Knowledge” and “faith” are two very different things. My statements have simply said that you can’t possibly “know” until you’ve been there, done it, experienced it, or seen it. Anything else is a belief or “faith.”

I certainly know knowledge. Do you know faith? Of course they are two different things. That wasn’t the point. Faith, as the bible says is “evidence of things not seen”. In other words, it’s outside of the knowledge factor – that which you can prove by some scientific concept.

How absolutely arrogant to state that you “KNOW” what God thinks.

How absolutley foolish for you to presume this is my point. My faith is not an acknowledgement that I know what God thinks. My faith is taking Him at his Word without any physical acknowledgement. It’s really unfortunate that you can’t grasp this concept. Do YOU know the meaning of the word “faith”? It seems you don’t.

It wasn’t too long ago that humans “KNEW” that the world was flat. We all know what happened with that.

This is a point regarding physical science. It has nothing to do with faith. Why would you even bring this up to prove a point? It means nothing in this debate.

Those of you who “KNOW” you’re going to heaven and “KNOW” you have it all down correct … are no more confident than they are.

Again, it’s about faith Gregor. Not some scientific knowledge. You purport to be strong in faith, but your points rely on something else. Your points do not reflect someone who understands or is strong in faith.

I realize (after reading your other comments) that this is far too simple for you to grasp. You require some positive evidence (God, himself, perhaps) to grab you by the shoulders and convince you. It will likely never happen. Not because it isn’t real, but because you seemingly have no faith.

thedecider on December 12, 2006 at 12:37 AM

What the hell are you talking about? I have plenty of “faith.” There is absolutely nothing in my comment that indicates I have a lack of faith or lack of belief in God.

Do you understand the word “knowledge?” Look it up. “Knowledge” and “faith” are two very different things. My statements have simply said that you can’t possibly “know” until you’ve been there, done it, experienced it, or seen it. Anything else is a belief or “faith.”

How absolutely arrogant to state that you “KNOW” what God thinks.

It wasn’t too long ago that humans “KNEW” that the world was flat. We all know what happened with that. Suicide bombers “KNOW” they are going straight to paradise to receive their 72 virgins. Those of you who “KNOW” you’re going to heaven and “KNOW” you have it all down correct … are no more confident than they are.

I don’t have any doubt that there is a God. I’ve never said anything to suggest I do not. But I’m not so blind as to say that I have all the answers while the rest of the millions of humans roaming the earth are somehow less intelligent than myself.

Meekness and Humility Toward God

Explanation of Luke 18:9-14

A Pharisee trusted in himself that he was righteous, prayed with himself, thanking God he was better than other people. Note the Pharisee’s emphasis on self, exaltation of self, and his failure to see his sins.

The Publican pleaded for mercy admitting he was a sinner. Note the conclusion in v14 – One who exalts self will be abased, one who humbles self will be exalted! Humility is the opposite of self-exaltation and self-righteousness.

A preacher once preached a sermon on this story and afterward a man prayed, “Lord, we thank thee that we are not proud like that Pharisee”! He was doing the very thing he was saying he was not doing! We are all sinners. We have no right to look down on anyone as if we deserve salvation because we are so good, and they don’t deserve it. We can be more righteous than the Pharisee, but only by humbling ourselves like the publican and calling on God to forgive us.