When guys start serving Jesus, somebody is always going to have a problem with it …

GoodBoy on December 11, 2006 at 6:02 PM

I would totally agree with that.

Gregor on December 11, 2006 at 6:10 PM

On the contrary, Paul’s expositions on the nature of salvation are absolutely essential to a complete understanding of ‘how it all works’. “Dangerous” to read Paul’s writings!?!?! They are as much a part of the New Testament as are the Gospels.

Soothsayer, you are doing a top-notch impression of a raving religious lunatic.

infidel4life on December 11, 2006 at 1:42 AM

No one said Pauls work weren’t a part of the NEW TESTAMENT, duh.
The point which you are either too dense to grasp or deliberately overlooking was that the EPISTLES are written to people who ALREADY HAVE HAD A FAR GREATER EXPERIENCE WITH GOD THAN YOU HAVE. They had already done the “First works’ they were already Baptized CORRECTLY, unlike you. They had already received the REAL HOLY GHOST complete with EVIDENCE unlike the fake “Spirit” peddled in most non-pentecostal churches. IF you take a moment to actually think instead of reacting like a child because someone is showing you that you aren’t saved yet, you will possibly learn something.

matthew 60AD, mark 50 AD, lu 60 AD, john 85-90 AD, acts 61 1Co56, 2co57 collossians 61 etc,

The above dates refer to when these books were written. As you can see they were written at least FIFTY years AFTER CHRISTS ASCENSION. What the heck do you think they were teaching in these churches up to that point? The silence is deafening. They were teaching the Apostles Doctrine which is the doctrine of water baptism in Jesus name and indwelling of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. Since they were written to established churches that had been up and running for FIFTY FREAKING YEARS, I would seriously doubt they would include a “METHOD OF SALVATION” for people who had already done that and were continuing to do so. That wasn’t the purpose, the purpose of the EPISTLES was to improve the conduct of the saved church! In most cases the scriptures that your churches take out of context weren’t even TALKING ABOUT YOUR NON JEWISH BUTT. Like ROMANS 10:9, every fake preacher drags this one out to show you that you DON’T have to speak in tongues and that, contrary to the expressed word of Jesus, it doesn’t matter HOW you were baptized! By the time you get to ROMANS 10 hopefully you will have read ROMANS EIGHT. See, in Romans 10:9 when Paul says, “Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved”, this isn’t a prescription for salvation, IT’S THE ANSWER TO A QUESTION. Didn’t know that did ya. I know you didn’t. See, from the EIGHTH chapter of ROMANS to the ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ROMANS, Paul is only concerned with quieting the fears of the formerly JEWISH CHRISTIANS. Just like in Acts 1:7, they were concerned with the Kingdom of God being restored to ISRAEL. That’s right, you got it. The scripture you have chosen to hang your salvational hat on WASN’T EVEN REFERRING TO YOU! Think I’m soft in the head? Au contraire mon frere….Read em and repent….And when you get to a part that mentions GENTILES you let me know!

Romans 10

1. Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. ( The subject is Irael not YOU.)

2. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. ( the “THEM” here is STILL ISrael!)

3. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (Still ISrael)

4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6.But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7.Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8. But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9.That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

NOTHING in this refers to ANYTHING SPECIFIC! It was all answering peoples concerns about their still Jewish relatives. Paul was letting them know for the past 2 chapters and through the next one that if Israel were to repent and “call on the Lord” that the Lord would be there for them, But as Paul goes on to say….

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher.
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Notice he says that the Preacher has to be “SENT” that means that he has to have “PROOF” of his salvation with the evidence attendant. Not some jack leg with a book and a charismatic way about himself. PROOF. The problem as I outlined earlier is that when you READ the bible, YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU’RE READING. The old testament has NO BEARING other than as a historic outline, to your life, NONE. In fact, READING TOO MUCH OF THE O.T. can actually BLIND you to the truths in the NEW TESTAMENT. I realize you never heard this before, but that doesn’t stop it from being true!

2 Corinthians 3:12-14 (King James Version)
12.Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13. And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

See how little you really know? Here Paul is answering the SAME questions that the Roman church asked about their Jewish relatives which you keep insisting has some bearing on your life. It doesn’t. He let them know in greater detail what was keeping their Jewish brethren from BEING SAVED.

The Gospels are a historic account of the life, teachings, miracles, pronouncements and fulfillings of prophecy by Jesus. The book of Acts CLEARLY SHOWS you the ONLY METHOD OF SALVATION IN JESUS because it is part of the Historical Record and ONLY FOR THAT PURPOSE since the person and community to which Luke was writing, were ALREADY SAVED .

The reason that Acts includes the FIRST HOLY GHOST FILLED SERMON given by Peter with the others present on the Day of Pentecost is for exactly that reason, it was THE FIRST ONE (ACTS 2:13-44). So the text of Peters message is included as is his sermon to the FIRST GENTILES ( Acts 10 all) In this book is the historic record of the foundation of the church and since the church is made up of people it includes who was saved, and HOW. IF the Apostle Peter , to whom Jesus gave the KEYS TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, said that you need to do this……

ACTS 2:38
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Why do you follow a man in a pointy hat that says otherwise? Why WOULDN’T you be BAPTIZED THE WAY PETER SAID TO? Are you crazy, stupid or what? I mean, these people died, most in horrible ways, to deliver the gospel to you UNCHANGED and you follow an APOSTATE heretic who thinks he is “GOD”S MEDIATOR ON EARTH” That is what that deluded heretic you call a POPE thinks he is , right? It’s what YOU think he is RIGHT? The mediator, God’s man on earth? GARBAGE. He doesn’t know anything and neither do you and following him will only get you into hell early. As for that mediator junk? I will show you how wrong you are with the fragile hope that it’ll make a difference. Here’s the Scripture that shows you the Pope’s a fraud…..

1TIMOTHY 2:5
5. For there is one God, AND ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

OOOPS. Notice he didn’t say that the MEDIATOR was some hack that you could VOTE INTO OFFICE? He said the ONLY MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN IS JESUS CHRIST. PERIOD. Pope’s a fraud. I show you people a more excellent way and you scoff. You have no biblical knowledge worth anything so you answer back with stupid slogans and platitudes which show how little you know in the first place. But try it the way it’s written just once, and see what you get! I promise you that if you do this….

ACTS 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If you get water baptized in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST and you tarry (pray and repent of you sins) you will have your language changed and then YOU will know, how wrong you and most of the world have been. You have come up with a lot of GENERAL SCRIPTURES which DO NOT override issue specific scripture, in an effort to explain why you HAVE NOT OBEYED the WORD. “It’s by faith” etc, blah blah blah, but this doesn’t discount the words from the KING.

JOHN 3: 7,8

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

What part of “EVERYONE” doesn’t include you?

Soothsayer on December 11, 2006 at 9:40 PM

Let me see if I follow Soothsayer’s theology properly. If I were to wash up on a deserted island somewhere with only a Bible, I couldn’t possibly get saved because no one was around to baptize me??? Or I could hope that God would bend the rules for me like the thief on the cross??? Can a mute not be saved??? You’re majoring on the minors, SS. Go back and reexamine acts 2:41 (no tongue-speakers).

jdpaz on December 11, 2006 at 12:44 PM

Boy, you’re so stupid this is going to take a while! First off IT ISN’T MY THEOLOGY, IT’S THE APOSTLES DOCTRINE! Did I INVENT all those scriptures that you AREN’T FOLLOWING or are they in your bible too? If you have one. First of all there is a biblical account of almost the precise predicament you are relying on. It takes place in the EIGHT CHAPTER OF ACTS where the ETHOPIAN EUNUCH is reading scripture, he happens on Phillip and Phillip preaches Jesus to him. Now, when he has accepted the things that Phillip says, he says “see here’s water now baptize me’! (I paraphrase) Well they were in the desert bub, and if theres one thing that the desert is notoriously short on, it’s water, but SOMEHOW God made a way.

You’re majoring on the minors, SS. Go back and reexamine acts 2:41 (no tongue-speakers).

Your ignorance is only exceeded by your arrogance. In Acts 2:1-4 the APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES received the HOLY GHOST with ALL of them giving the inital evidence of speaking in tongues. After that, STILL SPEAKING IN TONGUES, the Apostles and disciples move down onto the street. People from a multitude of nations are gathered there and some of them even MOCK THE APOSTLES SPEAKING IN TONGUES, kinda like you. This occurs in verse 13,14

Acts 2:13, 14
13.Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. ( they accused the tongue talkers of being drunk. NEVER FORGET WHAT THEY WERE MOCKING.)

14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15.For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16.But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Now PETER just told these people that THE TONGUE TALKING WHICH THEY WERE MOCKING was actually the OUTPOURING of God’s Spirit and that this WAS THE FULFILLMENT OF the prophecy contained in JOEL 2. He goes on to explain to them that Jesus whom they slew was in fact the messiah and that DAVID was not (verses 2:22-32) He then brings it on home with this…

ACTS 2:33
33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now SEE AND HEAR.(remember it was the tongues they were mocking! So Peter lets them know that the very thing they were mocking was the shedding forth of the Holy Ghost)

He goes on to let them know that David is dead and in his tomb and had NOT ascended into the heavens and that Jesus is that Savior. This message reached it’s intended audience and when they were “convicted” of their sin and felt terrible they asked this of Peter;

Acts 2:37.38
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now the people heard them speak in tongues and mocked them for it. Then Peter explains that what they were mocking was actually the thing that would save them, they are “pricked in their hearts” and ask what they should do. Now HE JUST TOLD THEM THAT THE SPEAKING IN TONGUES WAS THE SHEDDING FORTH OF GOD’S SPIRIT SO WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK THEY WERE AFTER? When it says…..

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Are you really so dumb that you don’t realize that the “BAPTISM’ was the “baptism of the HOLY GHOST” similar to that which the APOSTLES JUST RECEIVED??????? Didn’t you know that you have to be born of the WATER AND the SPIRIT? JOHN 3:-8

Before you slandered me in your arrogance didn’t you know what the smallest CHILD in my church knows? That when Baptism is mentioned in the N.T. it is always WATER and SPIRIT, or was JESUS just whistling dixie? What do you think he’s referring to when he told His apostles to await a new baptism in Acts 1? Hadn’t they already been WATER BAPTISED WAAAAY back in Matt 3?

ACTS 1:4,5
4. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence.

And why would acts 2:41 redundantly tell you that all those people spoke in tongues when THE ENTIRE CHAPTER IS DEDICATED TO SHOWING YOU THAT HIS APOSTLES DID JUST THAT AND PREACHED IT’S NECESSITY? Since THEY said that this is salvation, when the Bible says someone got saved or “souls were added” how is it that you think they’re talking something else now?

So Mr Pedestrian bible scholar it would seem that it is you not me that needs to do some studying. Your efforts are evil, I show you were the church is eliminating the gift of God and instead of seeing the worth in that and striving for the gift which you LACK, you seek to minimize the gift and pretend you don’t need it. One day, you wil know how wrong you are.

Soothsayer on December 11, 2006 at 10:19 PM

Soothsayer on December 11, 2006 at 9:40 PM
Soothsayer on December 11, 2006 at 9:43 PM

You wish to prove a point; however, you’re allowing the comments of others to make you obnoxious, and condescending. No one here should doubt you believe every word you type, but respectful people can respectfully disagree.

I have read through every word of every post you’ve presented here. Your points (yes, I will use that word) in scripture are well-presented, but they can take on a different meaning to prove different points - making it hard for me to argue that water baptism is required for salvation, and hard for you to argue that salvation is achieved through any means other than that described in John 3:16. Simply put, christianity is not as difficult as the rigid interpretation of your religion makes it. Salvation is not earned through a combination of things - it is simple faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

I have no doubt that if you truly believe everything you have posted here I will meet you in heaven one day. You will have arrived under your understanding of the scripture, and I will have arrived under mine because the basic principal is there: we have both accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord.

Please save your sarcasm of my post. It is well-meaning.

thedecider on December 11, 2006 at 10:24 PM

The Great Commission:
Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always to the end of the age.”

All other references to baptism must be interpreted in a manner that is in harmony with this command…

naliaka on December 11, 2006 at 10:45 PM

aww Gregor… you sound like you have some major conflict going on in your heart. Lets join hands and pray….

GoodBoy on December 11, 2006 at 10:59 PM

I believe we have a few people in here who represent the portion of Christianity which causes some to fear it. The “I will tell you exactly what you’re supposed to do or else you burn in hell” crew. The “God has chosen me to see what nobody else can see and therefore I’m allowed to judge you” crew.

I am a Christian, and you scare the hell out of me. So I can imagine what effect you have on those who lack faith.

Gregor on December 11, 2006 at 11:20 PM

I believe we are sometimes right and we are more often wrong.
We are only pitiful sinners in filthy rags, that is our nature. There is not one of us righteous, no, not one.
We can only rejoice that we have salvation and that Jesus Christ is our Mediator before God the Father.
Be thankful and humble because it is our good fortune that we live in the Age of Grace and have been chosen by Him to be part of His Church.
Each of us believes in our sinful, arrogant pride that we have the answers and others do not.
I believe we are all in for a surprise at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
I can barely wait.

oledawg on December 11, 2006 at 11:24 PM

I think that I know where you are coming from when you say that no one has all the answers. It is my understanding that Jews have stood outside the gates of Auschwitz and have prayed that Germans are NEVER “this sure of themselves” ever again. As you point out, Hitler/Himmler and the Nazis thought that they had all the answers.

CyberCipher on December 11, 2006 at 11:35 PM

I believe that correct doctrine is important. The absence of correct doctrine can hinder spiritual growth. That said, now I’m going to go out on a limb and dare to say that in my estimation, for every case of spiritual growth that is hindered because of some heresy that has been introduced, there is probably at least ten times more cases where spiritual growth has been hindered by harboring “bad atitudes.” In summary, it is MOST important that each us get our “compass” pointed in the right direction (a good atitude). That done, I am willing to trust the words of Jesus — He promised that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

CyberCipher on December 11, 2006 at 11:52 PM

yes I know 100% that I’m going to Heaven.

GoodBoy on December 11, 2006 at 11:36 PM

You “believe” that you know 100% that you’re going to heaven. The only way for you to “know” would be for you to be God. Only God can judge you. Not even yourself.

Unless of course … you’re already dead and you’re an angel writing on blogs from Heaven.

It reminds me of how many times I’ve heard scientists say they “know this” or “know that” only to have them admit ten years later that they were wrong.

You won’t know for sure until you are there. I wish you luck.

Gregor on December 12, 2006 at 12:14 AM

Sorry Gregor.. I DO know 100%. Im sorry you don’t.

GoodBoy on December 12, 2006 at 12:52 AM

Please don’t feel sorry for me Goodboy. Let me worry about myself, and you concentrate on your own flaws - if you feel you have any.

Gregor on December 12, 2006 at 1:19 AM

Really? Then explain this:

“You won’t know for sure until you are there. I wish you luck.”

thedecider on December 12, 2006 at 1:30 AM

Okay, now I’m just embarrassed for you. You just made a complete fool of yourself, but something tells me that you’re incapable of admitting it, for you know everything.

Thedecider the all-knowing.

Hey! Now I know where you got your screen name. “TheDecider.” You think you’re God.

Now … onto my point.

The fact that you took what I wrote and attributed it to something I was not commenting on renders the entire remainder of your comment irrelivent. If you bothered to read the entire conversation and my comments … you would have realized that when I wrote … “You won’t know for sure until you are there. I wish you luck” … I was responding to the following quote …

yes I know 100% that I’m going to Heaven.

GoodBoy on December 11, 2006 at 11:36 PM

I was not responding to a question about the existence of God. I was responding to a human being who feels that he “knows” without a doubt that he is going to heaven. I hate to tell you this, but when the Bible talks about “faith” it is referring to “faith in God” and not “faith in the fact that you are a fantastically special person who’s going to heaven to play poker with God and all the rest of the boys.”

On that note … everything else you wrote in that comment just makes me embarrassed for you.

Gregor on December 12, 2006 at 1:50 AM

I wish you luck” … I was responding to the following quote …

yes I know 100% that I’m going to Heaven.

GoodBoy on December 11, 2006 at 11:36 PM

No Gregor, I was right on point - you just missed it in your rush to prove YOU were the only right and correct person posting on this blog. And the fact that you completely overlooked and failed to respond to my other points indicates you are not at all confident with the very lame “leg” you’re trying to stand on. In addition, your snide remarks are highly indicative of your lack of confidence in any “point” you try to make.

The fact that you took what I wrote and attributed it to something I was not commenting on renders the entire remainder of your comment irrelivent [sp].

On the contrary, Gregor. It is quite relevant. Unfortunately, you have chosen to render our conversation pointless through your lack of ability to debate those points (i.e.: “Good luck with your 72 virgins”). A comment generating dull surprise given your lack of intelligent retort.

thedecider on December 12, 2006 at 2:07 AM

The old testament has NO BEARING other than as a historic outline, to your life, NONE. In fact, READING TOO MUCH OF THE O.T. can actually BLIND you to the truths in the NEW TESTAMENT.

I really feel sorry for you now, Soothsayer. How can you begin to understand what the NT says unless you really know the OT? Here’s one example: When Jesus was about to die on the cross, he said “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” By itself that hardly means anything, but as a signal that Psalm 22 was written by God several hundred years earlier for that very moment, to say what his son could not because he was suffocating, it is simply breathtaking in its perfection. When you read that psalm in its entirety, it is a powerful statement that is the exact opposite of what the words in the NT by themselves say. Here you have the our Lord and Savior talking about his purpose on Earth in the NT, and you can’t even begin to understand it without the OT. It goes on and on throughout Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Isaiah, Jeremiah and the rest that was given to us by God to better understand our mission.

Now my point about the Greek word for baptism is that it is a great example of how difficult it is to translate what was said 2000 years ago into todays world. By 1500 AD, when the Bible was translated into English, the concept of baptism was already so controversial that they couldn’t translate it, and had to just leave the Greek word in the English text. Prior to that there was no English word baptism. It’s a simple transliteration of the Greek letters. 500 years after that you are in an even weaker position to try to use that word as a proof text, when that word is itself a statement by the translators that the Greek cannot be translated into English in a non-controversial way.

My suggestion to you is that you find a more productive outlet for your energy, one that shows the love of God towards mankind. Otherwise you may be like the sorcerer Philip who is so obsessed with the laying on of hands that he forgot what the spirit was really about.

pedestrian on December 12, 2006 at 2:17 AM

Um … “cussing?”

Goodboy and thedecider have officially taken this to full comedy hour now.

Please enlighten me oh mighty one. Which part of my post do you read as “cussing?”

Are you typing on a computer from the mental ward rec room?

Gregor on December 12, 2006 at 2:29 AM

ROFL! You must have really had a messed up life. I hope it’s okay for you now.

Gregor on December 12, 2006 at 3:02 AM

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:9

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23

Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 16:29-31

And He turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And He said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with Him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith have saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 7:44-50

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:7-9

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

Acts 2:21

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

Acts 4:10-12

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. … These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:1-4, 13

Show God that you trust Him as your Creator, and accept the sacrifice of His Son as your Redeemer. God knows every person’s heart, and He won’t be fooled by lipservice. But believe it truly, and you ARE saved. Baptism is a commanded act of obedience. It is a public declaration of your surrender to God’s authority, your choice to be identified with Him by His death, burial, and resurrection. Any person who becomes born again through faith SHOULD be baptised. But the sequence is not the other way around.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8,9

Saved by grace, not an act. Saved through faith, not baptism. Jesus’ final words on the cross were “It is finished”. The greek tetelestai is a mostly monetary phrase meaning “paid in full”. My point here is that Jesus did it all. There is nothing we can add to His work as the ransom for our soul, except to believe and accept His gift.

Claiming that an action MUST be performed adds to His finished work, and would be analogous to me trying to add something to improve on the musical work of Bach, or a small child “helping” a carpenter by adding his own touches to a delicate piece of woodwork.

But that’s what makes it such great news. You don’t have do anything, simply believe. If you do, God’s word says that he imparts to you His Holy Spirit, which will guide you into obedience. Earlier I quoted Ephesians 2:8,9. Verse 10, which too many people leave out, is “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Good works are the Christian’s duty, in loving service to the God who saved us. They do NOT create or add to our salvation, but they show Christ to others.

And Gregor, note 1 John 5:13 there, you can (and I do) KNOW that you are going to Heaven. It isn’t about what I do, but what He’s already done.

Freelancer on December 12, 2006 at 6:13 AM

The old testament has NO BEARING other than as a historic outline, to your life, NONE. In fact, READING TOO MUCH OF THE O.T. can actually BLIND you to the truths in the NEW TESTAMENT.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”Knowing the Old Testament adds a richness and depth to the understanding of the fullfillment of all prophecies. To not know it leaves one open to manipulation by those would would distort the record, and therefore cast doubt on the witness of the fulfillment as described in the New Testament.

naliaka on December 12, 2006 at 10:03 AM

The man has made a plain observation, that men are not in the churches. Now, the main-line churches that preach women’s issues and Kumbaya instead of solid theology are among the worst offenders. There are noticeably more men involved in Protestant denominations like the Baptists, but the creep of wussification is everywhere.
Women have long been stalwarts of the Christian Church from day one, because Jesus gave them a dignity that the world did not. What’s pathetic now is the radical feminism that has slipped in to corrupt the traditionally solid, no-nonsense female presence. One could argue that the men are useless, but some of those women are pretty appalling themselves. Solution: It’s always the right time to go back to basics.

naliaka on December 12, 2006 at 10:18 AM

The man has made a plain observation, that men are not in the churches.
naliaka on December 12, 2006 at 10:18 AM

I am sure some churches are like that, not the churches I have attended. Some of newer “hip” churches are eager to provide “equal” opportunity to all. Some of the more established churches are men driven church. But there is no doubt you would be an asset to any church, and if a women can think and organize better than a man, why not lead?

right2bright on December 12, 2006 at 10:39 AM

There are noticeably more men involved in Protestant denominations like the Baptists, but the creep of wussification is everywhere.

Not a flame, not a whine, and not to diminish your point, but a historical truth: The protestant demonimations include such as Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc. The historical Baptists were not protestants, because they did not come out of the Catholic church.

Please do not take it the wrong way, but an argument carries more weight if it isn’t based on an error. Yes, it is part of the relative natures of men and women that women are more consistent about obedience to a sovereign God, and men are more wayward. A generalization, to be sure, but one founded upon fact.

Anyone reading here who lives in the San Diego area is welcome to come and worship Where the Shout has not died out, and I can guarantee no “wussification”, and also no phony machismo. Just people who want to serve the Savior in accordance with His word. In fact, this Friday, Saturday, and twice Sunday, our church is presenting it’s Christmas musical, “The Richest Family in Town”, and everyone is welcome.

Freelancer on December 12, 2006 at 12:27 PM