Video: Christians vs. Christ-followers
posted at 3:43 pm on December 7, 2006 by Allahpundit
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Four spots here from the Community Christian Church. Their “Journey” page doesn’t say much but judging from the ads they’re not entirely comfortable being called “Christians,” at least in the cultural sense. Either that or they’re trying to convert unbelievers by first turning them into hip, laid-back “Christ-followers,” at which point they’ll proceed to what the CCC portrays as phase two: full-fledged dorkwad Christianity.
The ribbing is gentle, but it’s still surprising to see this kind of religious stereotyping in an ad. Even if it is intramural.
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“Christ-follower” sounds WAY dorkier than “Christian!”
Alex K on December 7, 2006 at 3:47 PM
“Christ-follower” sounds WAY dorkier than “Christian!”
Alex K on December 7, 2006 at 3:47 PM
Also, “Christian no more” sounds kind of ominous.
Alex K on December 7, 2006 at 3:48 PM
“Lately I’ve been listening to a lot of U2″
Those Christ followers, so hip!
Alex K on December 7, 2006 at 3:52 PM
Relevant and sobering Bible verses for this post:
Luke 14:25-27 (New International Version)
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 3:53 PM
That was almost as difficult to watch as Jesus Camp. Ever seen that one? It physically hurts watching it. Those people should all be facing child abuse charges. Just my opinion.
THeDRiFTeR on December 7, 2006 at 3:55 PM
BTW, I am a Christian… NOT a sugar-coated Christianette.
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 3:56 PM
Oh goody. Muslims worldwide are returning to their roots while Christians are fighting over who can reject their past more strenuously.
“Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.”
With any luck, the hipper-than-thou Christians will focus-group themselves into irrelevance, but I doubt it.
spmat on December 7, 2006 at 3:58 PM
“Christian” actually appears in the Bible that the dorkwad guy is carrying…but the “Christ-follower” probably doesn’t realize that because, well, he can’t be bothered to bring a bible to church….the Bible’s all just—fffmmmp—integrated into him, I guess.
The Bereans were considered more noble in that they “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” But “christ-follower” is cool just to sit back and accept anything the pastor, or head-dude, is feeding him. Lame and lazy.
Yeah, us Christians are a peculiar people, all right.
jdpaz on December 7, 2006 at 4:00 PM
Lets be honest. Christian music is lousy.
They need an editor. 1:30 for a commercial is way too long. especially for that music that’s playing.
mattshu on December 7, 2006 at 4:08 PM
Didn’t you blaspheme against yourself when you posted this, ALLAH?
urbancenturion on December 7, 2006 at 4:12 PM
Another relevant verse to remember:
Revelation 3:16 (New International Version)
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 4:13 PM
mattshu, you said a mouthful there:
The good stuff is few and far between.
jdpaz on December 7, 2006 at 4:18 PM
(Let’s try that again…)
Okay, these are the kind of churches that tick me off. I’m a CHRISTIAN, k? Not some guy who has to worship in a mega-church with a coffee shop by some self-proclaimed holier-than-thou “Christ expert” who took a correspondence course on preaching and wants to get down and “rap” with me on a “real” level.
These guys are out for one thing and one thing only. MONEY. And to put out these ads to say that if you’re too stuck up or too pentecostal or too ANYTHING then you’re not really “getting” Christ and you should stop in at our coffee shop and rap with our pastors while taking our scientology class on…ooh, sorry I meant, taking our “Got Jesus?” class so I can learn about the proper way of being saved then I’ll be hip and kew too.
“I don’t speak Christian-ese” give me a f*(*@(#in break.
Skywise on December 7, 2006 at 4:18 PM
Creative but misses the mark. We are a peculiar people. Sometimes we try to be too hip for our own good. ‘A’ for creativity, ‘D’ for lack of insight.
Bic on December 7, 2006 at 4:23 PM
Here’s a link to what this church may be a part of - The Emerging Church Movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church
It’s really just Christianity plain and simple. The interpretations run the gamut from the most liberal to the most conservative, but they all have 3 things in common.
1.) They are non-denominational
2.) They focus their message mostly on Christ, with less emphasis on the old testament.
3.) They’re culturally modern - Think of them as “South Park Christians”.
Mark Driscoll is probably the best example of what this movement has to offer. He’s pretty hardcore ideologically as well. Hardcore enough to be as big a critic of the emerging Church movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Driscoll
He preaches at a Church called Mars Hill in Seattle. His “Vintage Jesus” series on their website is simply NOT to be missed by anyone who has the time to watch them, Christian or not.
http://www.marshillchurch.org/sermonseries/vintagejesus/default.aspx
And for the record I’d take issue with the notion that Christian music is lousy. Check out Barlow Girl, Sanctus Real, and Switchfoot.
http://www.barlowgirl.com/
http://www.sanctusreal.com/default3.aspx
http://www.switchfoot.com/
venmax on December 7, 2006 at 4:23 PM
I’m a Trekker, don’t call me a Trekkie.
Anil Petra on December 7, 2006 at 4:24 PM
Who is the target?
honora on December 7, 2006 at 4:25 PM
Amen.
Calvin observed that God uses the Muslims as a judgment against his apostate church. We in the West are heading for it. Maranatha.
PRCalDude on December 7, 2006 at 4:25 PM
Here’s another good discernment site for you all:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com
PRCalDude on December 7, 2006 at 4:26 PM
Interesting. Some parts I can kinda identify with, other parts I want to scream at.
For one, I do agree with the point that it’s not important about what we wear to church. James chapter 3 covers that subject quite well. And besides, Jesus didn’t turn anybody away because they weren’t wearing their best.
On the other hand, it does seem like they are being flippant about identifying ourselves as belonging to Jesus Christ. (”Christian No More” sounds like they are apostates.)After all, there is a difference between following Christ, and belonging to Him. In the Bible, many people followed Christ, but not everybody identified themselves as being His.
BigOrangeAxe on December 7, 2006 at 4:27 PM
Skywise, well said.
Matticus Finch on December 7, 2006 at 4:27 PM
Well, First off this is being used to point out that Christians are not supposed to be holier than thou. And that acting/appearing Christian does not make you one. It is an outward display of a work on the inside. I would not say that this is offensive, as a strong Christian (or should I say Christ-Follower). I would say that it is a good way to let Christians know that Jesus does not want you to act like the “Christian” in the vid. He wants you to come as you are and bring others as they are. He’ll meet you there and if something you do needs to be changed, he’ll take care of your heart so that it can change to be more like Him. The whole Chritianese attitude is a HUGE turn-off to people who know nothing of the Gospel.
Oh yea - mattshu you really need to try out Pillar, Kutless, Skillet, POD, Project 86, Day of Fire, Jonah 33, 12 Stones, and countless other Christian bands. Anyone that say Christian music is lame knows NOTHING about Christian music today. I’m sorry if that is rude, but seriously, try http://www.ChristianRock.net for an afternoon. If you can’t find something you like on that site, I would be surprised.
AWESOME POST Allahpundit
God Bless!
Graceless on December 7, 2006 at 4:28 PM
I understand the idea of letting people know that being a Christian isn’t all about being a holier than though prick who refuses to listen to any music that isn’t Michael W. Smith, and usually all approaches at conveying this message are cheesy… But how does “Christian no more” fit in? Even stranger, is Christian, is right in the church’s name, Community Christian Church!
RightWinged on December 7, 2006 at 4:31 PM
So who was being “holier-than-thou”? The guy in the suit who was trying to be genuine or the guy with the snarky responses and looks?
Skywise on December 7, 2006 at 4:33 PM
Ridiculous. My wife and I have had a hard time finding a church where we live. I have a rule about never attending a church that uses electric guitars or drums in their “choir”. Sadly, it is getting harder and harder to find a traditional church with a SERMON and not a “Christ Lifestyle”.
robblefarian on December 7, 2006 at 4:35 PM
I like how they are trying to make “Christ-followers” not by teaching about Christ and His message. Afterall, isn’t it obvious that Christ-followers are truly most Christ-like when making fun of “Christians”? I don’t remember any verses where Jesus was sarcastically mocking hard-working orthodox Jews or even hypocrites. Then again the ad does make clear that the Bible is for dorks, not Christ-followers. It’s religion for the non-religious.
These are the type of folks that argue over whether they are a “Trekie” or a “Trekker.”
cmay on December 7, 2006 at 4:36 PM
Yay! I’ve recently started enjoying Christian rock too. There are some great bands out there and they fill the vacuum created by mainstream pop music and painfully dumb lyrics.
NTWR on December 7, 2006 at 4:39 PM
honora, hard to say. The target might be other Christians who may feel disillusioned with where they are, or maybe just ones who are bored. Anyone else with some insight? Is there a political component to this, like that guy who went to Syria? Are these people recruiting activists (spit)?
Sorry, I’m confused. Is Mark Driscoll part of the emerging thing, or a critic of it?
Not to be argumentative, but how can one know Christ while ignoring (or relegating to lesser important) over half of scripture?
urbancenturion on December 7, 2006 at 4:40 PM
How ironic that a troll would ask this question. Okay, I’m game on this one. As others have already posted, you have to be careful BOTH about 1) who the target is, and 2) who is taking aim. From God’s perspective, all humans are the target. He is not willing that any should perish. He is engaged in a spiritual war to capture the hearts and souls of all men and woman. Unfortunately, it is not always God that is taking aim. There are unscrupulous individuals that run some churches as their very own lucrative, personal business - and those individuals are taking aim at your wallet. If nothing else, the “less than stellar” history of the Christian church PROVES that people have ALWAYS had difficulty separating that which comes from God from that which comes from man.
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 4:44 PM
As a Christian (Christ-follower?), I thought the “commercials” were pretty funny to an extent. I think the truth is someone in the middle of those two extremes.
The Christian stereotype has unfortunately too much truth in it - not much Scripture backing for the need to wear a suit to church. Dont get me started on the need to slap Jesus on everything, including the trivial and tacky.
But the Christ-follower is even more annoying. U2? U2? Is he trying that hard to be hip? And is reading and owning a Bible not cool for him?
The “Christian” while refusing to change the message (good), also refuses to change the method (bad). The “Christ-follower” want to change the methods to reach more people (good), but also often changes the message in order to be relevant (bad).
wardrobedoor on December 7, 2006 at 4:44 PM
Being a Christian is a follower of Christ - He is the center. “If you suffer for being a Christian, don’t feel ashamed, but praise God for being called that name.”
1 Peter 4:16. That sums it up for me.
Kat13 on December 7, 2006 at 4:49 PM
Look, here’s the thing: with traditional churches lagging in attendance (with the exception of Christmas, Easter, and calamity), many are trying to modernize their services with instrumentation and a more casual atmosphere. Fine. I’m with them on that. Do what you gotta do. Have a soul patch while you’re preaching, pierce a nipple, whatever.
But DO NOT come off like you don’t need no stinkin’ Bible. DO NOT cherry-pick your scriptures. Jesus himself quoted scripture, and if we are ‘Christ followers’ then we should try to be like Christ. Christ taught about hell, which is something the hip new megachurches want to avoid, because it ‘turns people off’.
The gate is narrow. Yes, there are hypocrites in church. I am one. So is everybody else. That doesn’t mean that we should be hip, mocha-drinking, lukewarm, I’m okay-you’re okay, trendy, three-day-beard havin’, patchouli-smellin’, hybrid-drivin’,toe-ring-wearin’, “plugged in”, quasi-believers who think that acting half-stoned makes you cool.
Sorry. Give me the pocket protector Christian who reads his Bible every day above the kewl dude.
Matticus Finch on December 7, 2006 at 4:51 PM
urbancenturion-This why I like Joyce Meyer. She is down-to-earth enough to appeal to major skeptics (like my former self), talks about how Jesus welcomes “cracked pots” because they show His light from within off better than the Ned Flanders types, and yet emphasizes the importance of the Old Testament.
And she’s not smarmy.
NTWR on December 7, 2006 at 4:53 PM
It’s his general impression (and he’s probably right) that the emerging Church movement leans too far to the left in their interpretation of the Christian faith.
But make no mistake - and please take the time to watch his Vintage Jesus series if you can - the dude is cutting edge and downright funny in a way that I’ve never seen Christians before. You’ll understand why I call him a “South Park Christian”.
venmax on December 7, 2006 at 4:57 PM
Billy Sunday would scare the heck out these “Christ-followers”.
Come to think about it, so would Jesus.
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. I John 2:15
The funny thing about these “Christ-followers” is that they try so hard to look and sound like the world that I have a tough time telling the two apart.
.
GT on December 7, 2006 at 5:02 PM
I assume that comment was in response to me, where I said:
Correct?
Reread what I’m saying again. And first of all the guy in the suit wasn’t “trying to be geniune” he’s playing the part of a caricature of what non-Christians and teens fear being a Christian is like. He couldn’t listen to anything but Christian music and has Christian bumper stickers lining the inside of his jacket, bitches about how someone is dressed for church, etc. It’s not like these are “real” people, they were playing a part… so first you need to remove the idea that the guy in the suit was “being genuine” from your mind.
Secondly, my point wasn’t about who is or isn’t being holier than though here (believe me I know carbon-copies of both of these people and they’re equally obnoxious), I was only stating what the message is supposed to be about.. it’s clearly geared toward teens and it’s to tell them “you don’t have to be this guy in order to be a Christian”.
RightWinged on December 7, 2006 at 5:03 PM
Yeah — what he said. The man is enlightened and annointed I tell you.
We all need to remember that God is the author of diversity.
If the wide range of people that call themselves Christian doesn’t convince you of this, well than just take a look at the insect world. God is not only the champion of diversity, but He has a sense of humor as well. So it is OK to be different, as long as you are COMMITTED to Christ — and commitment MEANS obedience. That brings us to:
Luke 6:46 (New International Version)
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 5:09 PM
Honora is not a troll. She is poster to argue against on occasion, roll our eyes in frustration, share the infrequent chortle.
allie on December 7, 2006 at 5:11 PM
I am a devout Darwinist-Evolutionist.
I follow the religion of Darwinism-evolutionism.
I know that it is the one true faith because science tells me so, and because science is based on fact and scientists are the high priests and would never lie, fabricate, distort, misdirect, misguide, mislead, or misinform anyone about anything.
I know that Darwinism-evolutionism is true about all species developing from shared ancestry, all from a single organism long, long ago.
I know this because I had a penny that I lost a long time ago. When I found it recently it was no longer a penny. It has wings, teeth, legs and arms, hair, eyes, ears, and it had babies. It also had a very complex language system, it recorded information via books, video tape, etc., and it could drive a car.
It had two PhDs as well, and was performing advanced minimally invasive neuro surgery and vascular surgery.
It even prepares its meals, seasons them, etc.
In fact, not only did that penny “evolve” into a living creature with advanced language, music, etc, but one of our three children’s toy, a musicial stuffed animal, has evolved into a swimming, flying, walking, talking, well educated creature who also reproduced and has children and grand children as well.
Yes, life comes from nonlife. I know that now.
So, I don’t believe in God or Jesus the Christ, or even Krishna, or Rama, or Vishnu, or Brahma, or Shiva. I believe in Darwinism-evolutionism for that is the true faith, backed by science.
William
William2006 on December 7, 2006 at 5:13 PM
They are making it seem that anybody who actually cares about knowing anything about Christianity is stuck-up and too orthodox. True, there are legalistic, judgemental people who think that if you do not have a bumper sticker and a WWJD bracelet then you are not a good Christian. There are also stuck up people like the dude on the right who think that it’s okay to just be “chill” about everything, and if you ever decide to look in a Bible commentary or anything you are a geek or a dork.
emmaline1138 on December 7, 2006 at 5:20 PM
Lots of people would do well to remember that. Whether they are those who made the video or those who comment about churches they don’t care for.
It’s ok to critisize, but please if you’re a brother keep it civil and constructive.
One Angry Christian on December 7, 2006 at 5:22 PM
Which one of these guys would you trust going on a business trip with your wife?
Matticus Finch on December 7, 2006 at 5:23 PM
Oooo! Hot button issue. Hmmm., William it is. Bill O’Reilly, is that you? Well, at least you are aware that Darwinism is a religion. So there is hope for you. BTW, have you seen the Southpark episode covering evolutionary retard mutant butt-sex?
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 5:23 PM
emmaline said:
Try listening to Joel Osteen sometime. You’ll swear you’re listening to the “kewl” guy. Just a bunch of feel-good, touchy-feely sweetness (no need for all that dirty old “repentance” stuff. ‘K?) Unfortunately, too many preachers try to bring people into the church building instead of trying to bring them into the church, while others think that there is some “dress code” hidden somewhere in the Bible.
PS. Todd Agnew, Newsboys, and Building429 are good to listen to as well.
BigOrangeAxe on December 7, 2006 at 5:34 PM
Either one.
My wife is wonderful! I would be surprised if she got involved with either one of these two.
William
William2006 on December 7, 2006 at 5:34 PM
Seems a minor detail, but is actually quite important. It is part of the works based vs. faith-alone based argument. Are we saved because of what we do, or because of what Christ/God/Spirit does for us?
It depends how we interpret the following Bible passage:
John 14:6. Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
Are we saved because we do good works? Or do we accomplish good works because we are saved?
The CCC web page says: “Followership is defined at CCC as a life guided by personal commitment to Jesus and his Church.”
This is not the same as the other Christian view that followership is defined as a life guided by the Holy Spirit.
So, are “Christ-followers” part of the group of Christians that believe they follow Christ of their own volition in order to earn salvation, or part of the group of Christians who believe they follow Christ because of the influence of the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost because of Christ’s free gift of salvation?
On their main web page CCC references Mathew 16:24, where Jesus says, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.” Taken out of context this is very much a works based passage, but since scripture interprets scripture, let us combine it with the words of Jesus I noted earlier.
If we put the two passage together we see that Jesus is saying that we must deny our sinful human natures if we want to follow Him (Mathew 16:24), but He and only He has the spiritual power to make/help us do it. (John 14:6) and (John 3:16).
Problem is that no where on the CCC web page can I find any reference about Jesus Christ’s free gift of us salvation, only the steps we must follow to earn it. Their recommended reading list is a compilation of self-help and leadership management books. Not one book discussion the Theology of Christianity, no discussion of Theology of The Cross, and nothing about the significance of the death and resurrection of Christ.
Example: The book titled “The Life You’ve Always Wanted”.
Question: Is Christianity about the life I have always wanted, or about the life Christ has always wanted for me?
Personally, I confess that I am a Christian because Christ gave me salvation and I am living the life Christ wants for me, not because of anything I have ever done to earn any of it. Consequently, I am a Christian who does not want to be identified as one of these “Christ Followers”. And I could not in good conscience encourage anyone else to embrace the CCC teachings reflected on their web page.
Lawrence on December 7, 2006 at 5:38 PM
“Which one of these guys would you trust going on a business trip with your wife?”
I wouldn’t trust either. My wife’s a whore.
scootran on December 7, 2006 at 5:40 PM
Brother,
Check out http://www.opc.org.
PRCalDude on December 7, 2006 at 5:40 PM
Bic on December 7, 2006 at 5:41 PM
As as Christian myself, I have mixed feelings on these.
I despise the Christian sub-culture and hate virtually every Christian bumper sticker I see. Likewise do I hate a good 90% of Christian music with its horrible theology and its attempt to disengage from culture completely.
But displaying that side as a dork, with the other side as hip is equally as stupid. Christians have a varying degree of freedom with certain things which you can see from 1 Corinthian 10. Some are fortunate enough to have the freedom of conscience to listen to “secular” music, dress comfortable to church, and ummm, not have dumb-ass stickers on their car. But when you advertise that you have those freedoms, then it seems to be getting too close to a line that shouldn’t be crossed.
“Ha, I can drink, and smoke, and listen to U2, and wear shorts to church! And any one who can’t do those things is a ‘Christian’ instead of a ‘Christ Follower’! Ewwwwwww! Those people are nerds!” Pft.
Slightly on-topic. Presbyterians have Real Ultimate Power. Yah, baby.
CorinthianJest on December 7, 2006 at 5:41 PM
Amen. Take a look at photographs of old theologians like BB Warfield or anyone on the Banner of Truth Trust. They all comport themselves in dress and appearance like the the Holy Spirit dwells within them. The gate is narrow, and the worldly shall not enter. True Christians do not try to look and act like the world. They are distinguishable. They are a peculiar people.
PRCalDude on December 7, 2006 at 5:45 PM
Haha. Good one William.
PRCalDude on December 7, 2006 at 5:46 PM
Yeah, I really don’t get how the ‘cool dude’ calls himself a ‘Christ-follower’ while acting as if the Bible is not needed. While it’s easy to mock the bumpersticker WWJD crowd (and certainly there are many of them that seemingly drift perilously close to the Pharisee on the corner) we are, as christians, called to spread the faith, so I can’t really fault folks who do as long as they are able to keep the focus on Christ and not their works/zeal.
My church is a moderately large traditional Presbyterian church in NJ, and we, like many churches are struggling with how to attract new members. I’m simply not sure if the desire to ‘be contemporary for the kids’ that Tom Lehrer parodied so brilliantly in The Vatican Rag” is the call of spiritual and communal growth or the call of the Sirens. We have a large traditional Sunday morning service, replete with full choir and organ, and we’ve added a more contemporary Saturday night service of the guitar-based variety and we’ll see how it goes.
I guess what bothers me most about this whole contemporary movement is that it seems to be based on the idea that Christ is our ‘best buddy’ and that if you profess belief than everything is peachy and cool, when in actuality nothing could be further from the truth.
And it’s sad that people who profess to follow Christ would want to separate themselves from the term ‘Christian’ and the Bible for political convenience.
Mr. Bingley on December 7, 2006 at 5:54 PM
Allah,
You’re stirrin’ it up lately, what with Warren-Assad, Warren-Obama and now this! And already a truck load of comments - just like those prior posts.
Honestly though, if this intramural ribbing is a surprise, you ought to get out to the right-wing base a little more. I’ve moved among Fightin’ Fundies all my life and I’ve seen alot worse.
Then again I have a sneaking suspicion you’re smart enough to realize you’ll get a pretty vociferous response when you poke a stick around on the right side.
The Ritz on December 7, 2006 at 5:57 PM
Corinthian, that site you linked to is a hoot.
As an elder in my presbyterian church I can attest that we spend loads of time on governing issues and forming ‘task forces’! Ha!
Mr. Bingley on December 7, 2006 at 5:59 PM
Oh man, if your wife reads this blog, you are in SO MUCH trouble.
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 6:04 PM
…good point.
2000 years, give or take, and thanks to modern bozos we’ve *FINALLY* figured out who God is, who Christ is, what that pesky “holy spirit” things…all because we’ve got computers.
…how arrogant.
Some folks have a “new perspective on Paul”, and their writings seem to show that they don’t understand Paul as well as did their grandfathers. Some folks are just bored with church, but don’t want to lose the social functions of church, and so need to be entertained while they’re there.
Some folks want a “seeker-friendly” church because all of that “thou shalt not” limits their options.
Thorough it all, genuine, orthodox Christianity is lost in the shuffle.
People got bored, church attendance fell, and *BANG* we in America had a Great Awakening. Their sons and grandsons got bored, and *BOOM*, on Great Awakening deserves another. The problem is that with each Awakening — especially with Finney and the Second — folks moved further and furhter from the Word, and closer and closer to satisfying mankind’s desires…when what mankind really needed to do is get his nose stuck in Scripture instead of monkeying with the machine.
Maybe, just maybe, these folks are “Christ-followers” because they *REALLY AREN’T* Christians…they’re just Wiccans who use Christ instead of Isis or “the Goddess” or some other man-made idol. Their idol reinforces their own self-images, makes ‘em feel good, maybe they think it makes their crops grow faster or something if they bow to it just right. Sunday is funday!
Christianity has taken a real beating since 1900.
There are still pockets of Christians out there…but their churches don’t have “stadium seating”, they don’t need billboard-sized plasma screens to see the pastor during sermons, and they don’t sing “praise songs”. Their pastors and sessions/deacons don’t gauge the effectiveness of their ministry by the number of “butts in seats” on Sunday. They don’t have “Hawaiian-themed worship” in Oklahoma. And, they don’t ever, *EVER* have a “clown service“.
John 11:35
Puritan1648 on December 7, 2006 at 6:12 PM
That’s what I’m afraid of too…
urbancenturion on December 7, 2006 at 6:27 PM
Really they’ve lost the message here…
You should not focus on a good ’sermon’ for the church you are looking for. Nor a nice building, or a good guitarist, or a big screen projector… etc.
Indeed, the point of the Christian is to be filled with the Holy Spirit. As such, neither this laid-back seeker friendly church or a rigid orthodox church really hit on the essence of Christianity.
Each person should read the scriptures for themselves and understand them. A ‘preacher’ should be preaching to the unbeliever; the believers should be teaching one another. Worried about ‘unorthodoxy’ spreading? If everyone is participating, then it is hard to hold a secret resentment and unorthodox view. If you’ve got something to say, you can say it.
Neither 500-year old hymns (God bless ‘em) or new Christian Rock songs (pretty good too) hold a monopoly on Christianity. They are both just old and new, and not timeless.
Christianity looks more like an old American one-room schoolhouse or a big thanksgiving dinner than a visit to a ancient temple or a theater or rock show.
Don’t know how many of you understand what I mean, but if you do, holla back.
RiverCocytus on December 7, 2006 at 6:31 PM
Ah yes, the “Lawrence of Arabia” of Christian televangelism. (I’ve noticed that she does not take prisoners.)
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 6:38 PM
By the way, despite their anti-political stance, the Amish do a damn fine job of being good Christians. Their reaction to a recent even where a man shot and killed several schoolchildren is an example.
This is the original story
Here is an after-reaction.
Note this quote from later on in the second article:
That my friends, is what one should be seeing.
RiverCocytus on December 7, 2006 at 6:40 PM
…absolutely, positively, 100% *WRONG*.
So we’re clear, this isn’t my opinion.
Romans 1:17 “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, [4] as it is written, ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’”
Romans 10:17 “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
…so preaching is sort of important…Paul goes on and on and on and on about it….
…touchy-feely, but I think you miss the point.
Doctrine is *KEY*. Stray from sound doctrine and you’re a hobby center, not a church.
Just because you’ve got a lot of people all gathered together of a Sunday morning, all doing more or less the same thing, doesn’t mean that you’ve got a proper church. After all, bowling clubs, biker clubs and wife-swappers meet regularly, too.
You have to be united *FOR* something. Doctrine and proper church discipline should proceed any such congregational effort.
That’s where a lot of these “seeker-friendly” churches fall over: they’re all afire to change the church to fit the expectations and felt needs of the seeker, so that when the seeker arrives he’s presented with a shapeless mess, left over from baiting in the last seeker.
The church has got to have a skeleton. That skeleton is doctrine.
…tread carefully…the theology of your praise is of *VITAL* importance. It was held once upon a time, when orthodoxy walked the earth, that we “sang our doctrine”. Hymns *ARE* vitally important, so long as they’re not “Jesus is my boyfriend” music.
Puritan1648 on December 7, 2006 at 6:44 PM
Let’s not be so hasty to judge them and prove the commercial correct, lol. A simple perusing of their web site shows sound core theology. ;)
CorinthianJest on December 7, 2006 at 6:44 PM
Or a cult.
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 6:52 PM
How do you rate John Hagee?
allie on December 7, 2006 at 6:58 PM
Hey, there’s alot of good Christian music out there. Some others have mentioned stuff they like. I like Skillet,Stavesacre and some other stuff.
vcferlita on December 7, 2006 at 7:08 PM
A few points:
1) Some Christian music is decent. Some popular music is decent. On the whole, most of the music that is produced (whether Christian, pop, rock, alternative, etc) is crap.
2) Honora is not a troll. She is a person who (usually) has a different opinion than most of the people on this board, but, she will always back up her claims and engage in debate with anyone that debates her points. While I rarely agree with her, I do enjoy having her here to add a different point of view that I might not otherwise get to hear (Who am I kidding, I hear it all the time, I live in CA - but it’s nice to hear it in a forum that more readily allows for discussion).
3) I belong to a Christian denomination that is more formal. Girls in dresses. Boys in suits. Piano and Organ music (no guitars or drums!). Sermons are very heavily scripture based. That’s what church is for me and what I prefer. When I first moved to CA, I stayed with a friend and attended church with their family. They went to a non-denomination church (coincidentally, it was also called Community Christian Church) with praise songs complete with drums, electric guitars and keyboards. The services themselves seemed a bit ‘feel good’ and ‘fluffy’ to me, but, the fact is that my friend’s parents are some of the best Christians I have ever met in terms of living the Word. They are very well-versed in scripture and live what they read.
My point being, I think you find what works for you and brings you closer to God. I don’t think that you are somehow better because you wear jeans to church at a coffee house nor do I think you’re better if you get dressed up in your Sunday best and sing along with an organ. So, if they’re trying to recruit people that would feel more comfortable in a casual church setting, great. If they are trying to make others feel ‘less Christian’ because they have more formal services….well that’s just dumb.
JadeNYU on December 7, 2006 at 7:08 PM
…or, at its most innocent, a waste of a Sunday morning.
1 Corinthians 15:17-19
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
1 Corinthians 15:32b-33
“If the dead are not raised, ‘Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.’ Do not be deceived: ‘Bad company ruins good morals.’”
If you *REALLY* think it needs improvement, you mean to say that it isn’t really true…not *REALLY*…in which case, fall back on the “eat and drink”.
Puritan1648 on December 7, 2006 at 7:08 PM
Wow - those are fabulous! Remember who Christ hung out with when He waslked among us…those who needed Him. He told the ultra-religous pharisees to their faces that they were vipers, and dead men walking…that they were so religious they forgot about love and kindness. He came to heal the sick, not the healthy. His best frieds were tax collectors and people who “society” had cast off. He loved people so much that they decided they wanted to be like him. Awesome vid’s. Amen, brudda!
JustTruth101 on December 7, 2006 at 7:18 PM
Oh, and by the way, the guy in jeans is being totally accepting of the guy in the suit. The guy in the suit is not being put down, reading the bible is not being put down, nor is listening to Christian music. The point is that Christ is for all, that you don’t have to wear a suit, that you don’t have to listen to only Christian music, etc. That you can start following Christ right from where you are. It’s a journey, and you have to start somewhere, what better place than where you are.
JustTruth101 on December 7, 2006 at 7:23 PM
Where do I even begin with this?
First of all, Christ did hang out with tax collectors and ’sinners.’ But he preached repentance of sins and faith in him. “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.” The main problem with the pharisees was not the fact that they were “ultra-relgious” but that they had invented a new religion entirely. They invented a system of rules and regulations in an attempt to keep the law more perfectly, not realizing the intent of the law in the first place.
The Law increased the burden of Adams’ sin, it was added for transgression. It pointed ahead to the Son of God who would keep both the original covenant of works and the Law. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” The pharisees thought the Law was the end in of itself. They still do. They invented their own extraeneous system of laws to try to live more perfectly, but their new laws didn’t agree with the Law given by God through Moses. They lost the original forest through the hedge of their own making. The original forest, of course, being Genesis 3:15. The Mosaic covenant (the Law) was merely an organic development of this original promise.
What did Jesus do when the pharisees tried to entrap him? He either quoted from the Law of Moses or from Genesis to show how far the pharisees’ doctrine was removed from its original intent. The law is good, only if one uses it lawfully.
The entire commercial was itself judgmental of the Christian on the left. It was an attempt to show how passe suit-wearing, orthodox believers are.
We all start following Christ from the same place: dead in transgressions and sins. We’re tired of seeing marketing and business models trump the Gospel - as Christ preached it, not as it’s been reinvented.
PRCalDude on December 7, 2006 at 7:45 PM
…amen….
…preaching Christ and Him crucified is what folks need…not reinventing a perfectly functional wheel….
Puritan1648 on December 7, 2006 at 7:49 PM
I [...] hate virtually every Christian bumper sticker I see.
Everyone, CorinthianJester?
What about “Are you Following Jesus This Closely?”
or
“Jesus Loves You. Everyone Else Thinks You’re an A**hole” (seen in my church parking lot).
baldilocks on December 7, 2006 at 8:28 PM
Being that I was born Jewish-yes I left the faith-I gotta have my music-which is why the Lutheran Church(Missouri Synod) and the OPC didn’t work for me. I need to be able to move.
The Reformed Church in America-which is the denomination my my husband and I got married in-is trying to give PCUSA, United Methodists, and United Church of Christ(”Rev” Barry Lynn’s people) serious competion as the most PC far left “mainline” group.
I support ordaining women-husband doesn’t- so fundamentalism was out too.
That’s why I’m glad we were introduced to the Nazarenes.
http://www.nazarene.org
The Nazarenes are the conservative siblings of the methodists-yet they believe women can be called to the ministry and encourage worship through music.
They’re not “legalistic” Christians-but they’re Bible following, spirit lead ones.
They’re a great bunch of folks too.
Btw-I’m part of my churches worship team-I sing-and I love it.
annoyinglittletwerp on December 7, 2006 at 9:05 PM
I […] hate virtually every Christian bumper sticker I see.
I have seen at least a umpty-ump gazilla so-called “Christian” stickers/chrome icons/etceteras on the back more cars than I can count during my 50+ year lifetime. On one (and only on one) occasion did I EVER see a bumper sticker that I found compelling. It was the only one that I’ve ever seen, that when I saw it, I was envious, and I wanted one like it on my own vehicle. (I normally detest the idea of putting ANY kind of bumper sticker on my vehicle.) Some Christians might not think that what I saw was a Christian bumper sticker. Nevertheless, I wanted it. It read three simple words:
“Atitude is EVERYTHING.”
CyberCipher on December 7, 2006 at 9:06 PM
“Escape from Reason” The O.C. Supertones
vcferlita on December 7, 2006 at 9:15 PM
I won’t add a bumper sticker to my car. I don’t want the sticker marks left behind, and I don’t want it to look trashy - although we make enough of a mess INSIDE the car, via our children dropping their snacks, etc., all over the place.
There are a few I enjoyed:
“As a former fetus, I oppose abortion” is one of my favorites. That style goes well with the way Rosie O’Donnel attempts to establish moral superiority on someone before she bullies them with “As a gay woman …”
Has anyone observed the Darwin-evolution bumper stickers in which they depict a fish, one of the symbols of Christianity, with legs, a la the belief that fish grew legs and walked or crawled out onto land, a la evolution?
How clever!!!
William
William2006 on December 7, 2006 at 9:35 PM
Annoying,
Why did Jesus call only men to be part of his 12 apostles? Why were all the OT Priests and Levites who served in the temple men? If your church ordains women, how conservative can it be, and how can the Holy Spirit bless it?
You gave several reasons why churches didn’t work for you, but they were all based on felt needs, not on Scripture.
PRCalDude on December 7, 2006 at 9:52 PM
PRCalDude on December 7, 2006 at 9:52 PM,
Regarding your questions above, what is your opinion?
Why did Jesus call only men to be part of his 12 apostles?
Why were all the OT Priests and Levites who served in the Temple men?
What is the reason? Was it cultural? Was is political?
Was it sexual discrimination?
Was it scriptural?
Did God amlighty tell someone that is the way it should be?
What do you think?
William2006 on December 7, 2006 at 10:11 PM
Why did Jesus call only men to be part of his 12 apostles? Why were all the OT Priests and Levites who served in the temple men?
What do either have to do with whether women can preach the Word or not?
Jesus never spoke on this specifically and had other followers who were not men. (Mary Magdelene ring a bell?) Also, I think if it were important, JC would have addressed it.
BTW, there’s a passage in First Corinthians (written by Paul, of course) stating that “women should be silent in the church.” One has to know the context, i.e. what Corinth’s women were up to at the time.
As for the OT prescriptions, one of them says that women shouldn’t cut their hair (it’s in the NT also, referring to Corinth’s crazy chicks again; another contextual issue in both cases), but I doubt that my salvation will hinge upon whether or not I stop shaving my head nearly bald every two weeks.
Before I became a Christian (but was thinking about it; reading, studying, listening to those who were already there), some old man came up to me and admonished me for cutting my hair, citing the relavant OT scripture. I looked him straight in the eye and told him that it was people like him who kept others away from God.
I wish more people who are interested in the Bible would read knkowledge-based Bible assistant reading like Strong’s Concordance and/or find a pastor who’s more interested in digging into the Word than selling trinkets for donations or casting their half-baked judgment down on others.
Legalists!
baldilocks on December 7, 2006 at 10:54 PM
PRCalDude,
Slice has discernment?! That was a joke, right?
Allah,
You might get a laugh out of this video which is really pretty funny. It’s also available on You Tube in lower rez.
John on December 7, 2006 at 11:52 PM
Here’s Mark Driscoll’s Blog. It’s a fun read.
http://theresurgence.com/blog/2
venmax on December 8, 2006 at 12:06 AM
Wow. Awesome thread people. I’m glad we can all debate Christian-ness without the car bombs and apostate head chopping. We are all in God’s ball park.
My church’s congregation runs the gamut. People in suits are nice. I tend to be more like the jeans guy. We all love and respect one another. I have learned so much about caring for my fellow man from the supposedly “uncool and geriatric”there. Substance of character is not a fashion statement.
Ten years ago I was in a local Alt-Rock band,(pre-church) then organized a band at the church where I got married in 98′. Some sundays I would play after a saturday nightclub gig till 2am. Gradually, I lost interest in singing about pain, hopelesness, casual sex and dysfunction. I prefer listening to Jars of Clay rather than all the moonbat stars who campained for Kerry. Or Greenday, with their “commie chic”. Four years ago, I graduated to worship leader and we blend together hymns, praise and worship, and contemporary in the same service and it works. I have come to love the melodic conventions of traditional hymns. Good ones give me goosebumps.
The difference is I am no longer an “entertainer”. The message is the star-not the musicians. My audience is no longer drunk people hoping to get laid,(though all are invited), but that place in the heart where the Holy Spirit dwells in us all.
Buck Turgidson on December 8, 2006 at 12:14 AM
What?
There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support this claim. Science can not create life from non-life now, and have never been able to do so, regardless of how hard they try.
It takes a live embryo and a live sperm to create another singular life form. Yes, frozen embryos and sperms are used often, but they have to be frozen while they are alive, frozen and unfrozen under very specific and exacting conditions. If they are first dead and then frozen they can’t be reanimated after unfreezing.
So, you can believe that life comes from non-life all you want, but it certainly isn’t a belief based on science.
Lawrence on December 8, 2006 at 12:17 AM
So, you’re priority for going to church is music? Not the doctrine the church teaches?
What’s the point of going to church if all you are there for is non-theological music?
Lawrence on December 8, 2006 at 12:20 AM
Actually, I’m sorta’ fond of John Hagee (maybe for the wrong reasons). He reminds me of the old “fire and brimstone” preachers that used to be commonplace back in the 1950s and 1960s. I don’t know. Is nostalgia enough of a good reason to like somebody? Oops. Guess I really gave away my age here. Okay, so I’m a dinosaur.
CyberCipher on December 8, 2006 at 12:26 AM
scootran, you made me laugh tears. One never knows what these threads may turn into. You’re a riot! And you might not even have a wife or might be one…the beauty of anonymity.
Entelechy on December 8, 2006 at 12:50 AM
Christianity…or Christ Following, I don’t care what you call it.. is a committment to uncompromising TRUTH of Jesus Christ. It isn’t about how uncomfortable your tie is. It’s not about whether you would rather hear Aunt Bessie pounding on the keys or your paster pounding on the drum kit. It’s about teaching and living the Gospel. Everything else is “personality”.
jjjen on December 8, 2006 at 1:17 AM
With any luck, Christ will firebomb this forsaken rock, with all of its Third Day clones and Death Cab for Cutie knockoffs. Three cheers for God’s judgment on mankind. Speed the day.
Romance is well and truly dead.
spmat on December 8, 2006 at 2:35 AM
How much you want to bet that this church does not do the following:
1. Teach Doctrine
2. Teach Apologetics
Nothing like bubble gum Christianity that these people are spreading.
Tim Burton on December 8, 2006 at 3:26 AM
Dude.
Dude.
Dude.
Dude.
And, Dude.
see-dubya on December 8, 2006 at 3:48 AM
Y’all are making atheism look more attractive. I suppose I should count my blessings that nobody has uncorked arguments about predestination, Mormons, or the Pope.
Can we get back to politics? As a Christian, I have some strong feelings about many of the topics above. As an American, I am happy to unite with Christians, Jews, Scientoligists, New Agers, Wiccans, atheists, and Giaia-worshipping Burning-Man types in opposing our common enemy: radical Islamic fascism.
This is the best comment of the thread:
Anton on December 8, 2006 at 7:58 AM
Well, they got one thing right…the parody is as elitist and as annoying as the original.
James on December 8, 2006 at 8:17 AM
Lawrence:
God uses music to reach me.
In 3rd grade my music teacher had a side job as a gospel pianist on some local church tv program.
He told me that I could sing and showed me love when my abusive father wasn’t.
In 1984 when I was a freshman music major at the Chicago School of the Arts-it was a fellow freshy music major(who attended the famous Moody Bible church)who got me hooked on this new christian crossover artist named Amy Grant.
My friend said that though I was Jewish she’d thought that I was one person who would appreciate Amy’s positive message.
I wore that tape OUT.
Through the years the Lord has brought me to my knees many times with song-and being that I’m also somewhat autistic it’s also the way He uses to help me let my true feelings out.
I was also born Jewish. Orthodox Jews pray by singing and dancing, shouting and chanting. I was raised reformed Jewish-but that style works for me.
“A Mighty Fortress is our God” is a great song-but I can’t truely praise HIM in music while standing like a statue.
I’d rather praise Him while singing and dancing, shouting and chanting.
Jesus is a Jew.
I’m sure HE understands.
annoyinglittletwerp on December 8, 2006 at 8:28 AM
Baldy:
I’m with you on the hair /dress thing.
I wear my hair in a short but feminine style-and my usual church garb is polo shirts and sweaters with jeans or khakis. I even usually wear my Cubs ball cap too.
I don’t even OWN a dress.
There’s an orthodox pentacostal church near me.
They’re of the long hair/long dress/be silent/have lots of babies way of thought.
I walk by that church serveral times a week.
The mind boggles at what they must think of me.
lol
annoyinglittletwerp on December 8, 2006 at 8:37 AM
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