I will be back soon for more info!…

You hit the nail on the head.

As for Chuck Smith, isn’t the way a man raises his children one of the requirements for eldership? 1 Timothy, Titus (his children must believe – if they’re preaching a different Gospel, how can they be believers?)

Homosexuals need the Gospel, not acceptance. They are no farther off than you and I were when we were called, and need the same Gospel you and I received. They don’t need preachers who’ve studied the ins and outs of homosexuality.

Didn’t go to seminary. Haven’t been to Fuller’s library, just told this by one of my ministers about 10 years ago.

BTW, Chuck Smith’s son doesn’t preach on hell. Too controversial: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-smiths2sep02,0,2227134.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines . If he’s so great at discipling, why didn’t he start there?

PRCalDude on November 30, 2006 at 7:42 PM

This thread tells it all. You were told ten years ago, that is enough to attack. Chuck S. son does not preach on hell, taken from the great Christian paper the LA Times. The paper who thinks the prodigal son is Al Gore. Why Chuck S. jr. even talks to homosexuals, God forbid! Next thing you now he will be accepting those whores.
PRCalDude, the LA Times hates any strong Christian leader, they have done hit pieces on every Christian leader, including Billy Graham for decades. Quoting the LATimes to a Christian means nothing. Unless you have first hand knowledge, don’t attack an instituition for being a cesspool (Fuller seminary has produced some great scholars and ministers), or at least more than “10 years ago someone told me”. Don’t judge a person by how you think he raises his children. And for God’s sake, don’t judge someone by pointing out one supposed failure. You have a long way (we all do) to go in your walk.

Have you ever had an ache you keep trying to isolate, but you can’t quite pinpoint it’s source with the dig of your thumb? The discussion above reminds me of just such an unhappy search – every so often we take it up, only to go back to other things when we again fail to pin it down.

So what is the crux of the matter in the Warren-Assad and Warren-Obama meetings? Is there really a crux? Maybe our discussion would be more profitable if we debate whether it’s “kerfluffle” or kerfuffel. No, I believe one of the most profound truths of a genuine Christian experience is at stake.

Pastor Warren is failing the Sovereign he’s publicly sworn to by deliberately handling the social power levers King Jesus himself wouldn’t touch.

The King of Kings said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” (Joh 18:36 ESV) In other words, Christ The Heir of The Creator ignored the instruments of human power (politics, insurrection, war) as a means to ascending his rightful throne. So what other means did he choose? He claims in scripture to have established his seat of power forever by allowing the religio-political crowd to spike him to some standing timbers. This seems paradoxical to the point of being nonsensical until it’s immeasurably deep wisdom pierces our hearts . . . yes our hearts.

You see, it is the corrupt human heart that is the locus of our pain. Not a rampant virus, not inequitably distributed wealth, not waves of violent oppression and mass murder, not global warming, not our overbearing boss, not the divorce we’re suffering through, not the malignancy our doctor just found. . . these are all only symptoms. The true pathology is each one of our rebel hearts. It’s our self worship that injures people around us. It’s human self-absorption that even sent our cosmic existence spinning away from the Creator’s constant life into disease, decay, entropy, death.

Fallen humanity – each one of us – proves every day that we have no way to cure ourselves (much less nature). Down through the ages we’ve tried by inventing all kinds of religious and social systems with which to medicate ourselves and doctor our environment. But still the symptoms persist and grow even more accute. Rick Warren’s PD P.E.A.C.E. P.L.A.N. is just one among many inadequate prescriptions. Why are his energies spent in mixing up another social/religious power potion aimed to “attack” a handful of symptoms? He is tragically distracted from the real mission.

The real cure to ALL our pain is administered when we recognize the wonder of who Christ is and what he’s done for us individually. It takes effect when we respond as we logically should by humbly and gratefully bending our knee, swearing personal fealty to our true Sovereign, and offering our own heart to him as tribute.

This is the domain he seeks to own – the territory of your heart and my heart. Because when he fully commands us, he can teach us how to stop hurting the people he’s put us next to. He shows us how self indulgence numbs us to the terminal trauma we cause to ourselves and others. He leads us to share what we have with a needy neighbor, or to care for a victim of HIV AIDS. He helps us understand the meaning of “stewardship of the earth”. And on and on the cure goes until another heart, then another is led back to its Healer.

Pastor Warren should be pointing the way to this Healer. Instead he’s selling his own Rx. This makes me angry because it belittles the One I’m sworn to and substitutes another concoction for the Great Physician.

That’s why I’m compelled to keep this discussion thread going.

Discuss.

What’s not compelling politically for a cure for malaria, the scourge of hundreds of millions of people?

Indefagitable in the Urban Dictionary.

That’s, um, not what I meant. Good word though.

Folks, you may not agree with Bryan’s continuing commentary on the weaknesses of Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven” drivel, but my goodness, have you seriously never heard of this guy?

I’m pretty sure I read about him in this Tim LaHaye novel – wasn’t that Carpathia character based on Rick Warren?

In all seriousness, when a preacher starts getting “big” like Warren, Dobson, and many others, I immediately tune him out. I might agree with him on a topic or two, but I don’t seek out his opinions or take him too seriously because in my mind he’s moved from “religious leader” in the Respected category to “politician” in the Disdain and Distrust category, when I think about him at all. Someone gave me a copy of PD Life a few years ago, I flipped through it, recognized it for what it was and filed it appropriately – right after the potato peelings. So when I read the name “Rick Warren” there’s a bit of a hesitation while I make the connection – “Oh yeah, him.” I can’t be the only one who does this.

Although I am a protestant, I don’t like the term. I found less to protest about John Paul II, for example, than many protestant leaders.

BTW, Chuck Smith’s son doesn’t preach on hell. Too controversial: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-smiths2sep02,0,2227134.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines . If he’s so great at discipling, why didn’t he start there?

Their library has a full wall of homosexual studies material.
PRCalDude

So how long did you hang out at the wall?

I wasn’t supporting or casting dispersions on Fuller, only stating that small groups in the PD concept have been around well before Warren started preaching. I am sure the seminary you went to is far superior to Fuller.

Catholicism is works-righteousness, just as I understand Mr. Warren to be. I can’t see, from what you echoed of my screed in your post, where you derive works-righteousness.

Pruitan,

Although there is a lot of history and anger behind this debate, in general, you’re mistaken about Catholic theology. It is not as you characterize. You originally said “works will follow faith.” That’s exactly the point that Catholicism makes about “works.” They follow faith. Faith without works is dead. The whole “faith alone” vs. “works” debate between Protestants and Catholics has been history’s biggest misunderstandings. In fact, although I don’t have it handy, I recall that recently there was some kind of joint theological statement between the Vatican and the Lutheran Church which basically said “you know what, this debate WAS just a big misunderstanding.” I remember it well in the Catholic blogosphere because posts were headed with titles like “Reformation Over” and stuff like that. Obviously, of course, the 2 churches still have certain theological differences.

Here’s a nice little summary:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/faith_vs_works.htm

…to continue screed: this is why churches are *AWFUL* places to hold secular meetings. If you need a venue, rent a hall somewhere. Meet in the gym. I expect that Saddleback has a gym.

Then again, Saddleback is probably one of those big, shiny auditorium-type buildings with stadium-style seating and big panels screens, so you can see the pastor preaching even when you’re in the “cheap seats”…er…so to speak.

If you want to hold a skull-session to figure out the cure for the common cold, energize voters, sell pots and pans, or hear the latest “praise” band sing “Jesus is my boyfriend” music, rent the VFW hall.

Church is for worship. Full stop.

Exactly. As Meredith Kline is known for saying, “What hath the cult to do with the culture?”

right2bright,

Fuller Seminary is one of the biggest cesspools of devilry in the Christian sphere today. Their library has a full wall of homosexual studies material. They’re as theologically liberal as they come, and don’t even believe that the Word of God was breathed out by God.

PRCalDude,

The file’s 39 Mb. I’ll try to break it up. I tried to zip it, and it’s still to big to attach and email. Sorry. Let me give it some thought.

Puritan1648 on November 30, 2006 at 3:51 PM

FYI, Puritan, you could upload it to Rapidshare–it’s just a free upload host that’s handy for transferring larger files–and then send PRCalDude the download link that they’ll give to you. All he’ll have to do then is click on the link and download the file to his computer. I use Rapidshare all the time. (Yes, mostly for porn.)

So the Pope took off his slippers, went into a mosque, faced Mecca, and…prayed? meditated? assumed the “posture of tranquility”? I would say Hell froze over, but I think quite the opposite is true. Coming soon: apologies for Lepanto. At……

So Warren isn’t a Billy Graham. He’s more influential, albeit more quietly, than Graham ever was.

Bryan, I think Warren has about 40 more years to live up to Billy Graham. You are a little naive on the influence of Billy Graham.
Most churches have a small group ministry, PD is now one of the component, but not entirely the focus. Small groups started many years before he was in the pulpit. Fuller Seminary, not far from his church, was one of the leading seminaries to promote and educate small groups. We will see where his church is in 25 years. FYI, Chuck Smith also a So. Cal. minister, has discipled many more church leaders with greater influence than Warren (although as you put it “albeit more quietly”.
Warren is one of many in a long line of charismatic church leaders, I could name a dozen with greater influence in the past 10 years than him.
Warrens influence will either continue or fade away depending on the bedrock it is built upon. He is what I call a “boutique minister”.

Most of what I have learned about Warren (other than skimming through his book brought to our office by a co-worker) has come from you. And a big part of what I have learned is that, somewhat ironically, you are riding in his wake. He is your reason-to-be.

By the way, when you use phrases such as “reportedly” instead of specific attribution it carries even less weight than an AP story about the fighting in Iraq.

Ultimately, only time will tell.

…not that there’s anything wrong with that….

Puritan1648 on November 30, 2006 at 3:22 PM

Heh.

Great thread on Warren, all. Appreciate the post, Bryan; well done.

And is it just me, or does anyone else think GregH just changed his name to JaHeyDere22?

The file’s 39 Mb. I’ll try to break it up. I tried to zip it, and it’s still to big to attach and email. Sorry. Let me give it some thought.

We should ask them what they hope to gain by supplying these guns. We should inform them that the more Iraq devolves into civil war the more refugees and more problems they will have on their border. — JaHerer22

…then what? Do we put ‘em in “time out”?

This is why Mister Rogers stayed on Public Television, playing with cardigans and handpuppets. This is why he wasn’t an international arms dealer or a rising star at the Pentagon.

This betrays an amazing lack of understanding of how nations interact, or even of how people interact. I had expected better.