Video: The obligatory UCLA/taser post; Update: Alleged eyewitness: He was asking for it

posted at 12:55 pm on November 17, 2006 by Allahpundit

Patterico has background. There’s some dispute about whether they tased (tasered?) him because he was inciting other students or because he was lying on the floor and wouldn’t budge. I thought cops were supposed to use tasers to repel physical attacks, though, not to subdue nonviolent (albeit loud and obnoxious) resisters. The campus newspaper says he was hit at least four times, yet there’s not a single account I’ve seen that alleges he made a move on them.

He’s already lawyered up — make sure to read Patterico’s post for background on that, too — and will attend a news conference this afternoon at 2 p.m. ET to discuss his police brutality suit. Check out this convergence; MEChA and ANSWER and CAIR, oh my!

The student was scheduled to attend the 11 a.m. news conference, along with representatives from the Council on American-Islamic Relations, Amnesty International, the Muslim Student Association-UCLA, ANSWER, Iranian Student Group, Student Activists Project, Progressive Jewish Student Alliance, Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan, African Student Union, Samahang Pilipina, Asian Pacific Coalition and others.

FYI, the video doesn’t show much. It’s the audio that’s key. There’s profanity, so exercise caution if you’re at work.

Update: For what it’s worth, if it’s worth anything, here’s what some guy who claims to have been in the library at the time has to say:

Yes, I was indeed at Powell Library at approximately 11:30 on Tuesday night, and yes I did see the entire event as it went down.

Let me start off by saying that the guy DEFINITELY was asking to get his ass kicked. He was being extremely rude with the campus patrol guys (who are college students…this was before the real UCPD got called in). He was not complying with their requests to leave the premises, and he was definitely itching for a fight. I actually know the guy and a few of his friends, and I can tell you that he’s the kind of guy that loves to make trouble.

Just as a little backstory, one of the quotes the guy has on his facebook (which he now has taken down) was “I like to find the most difficult solutions to the simplest of problems”.

He definitely taunted the UCPD into behaving the way they did with him.

Edit: Many people have questioned the fact that the cops tazed him and asked him to get up, and tazed him again even though he shouldn’t have the capability to get up. This was not the case here to my knowledge, because the cops were using their “drive-stun” method which administers less of a jolt than normal. I believe this because anyone who can ramble on about this being the patriot act and yell at the top of his lungs should have the capability of getting up.

And later:

[H]e just said he was leaving to add fire to the scene. The guy wasn’t going anywhere until he got tazered. It was a bait tactic on the part of tazer-boy. When the cops initially asked him to leave he was limp like a drunk’s dick.

I don’t think this changes the equation.

Update: Reader Enoxo recommends this demonstration as evidence that suspects who have been tasered can’t move — unlike the UCLA student, who was merely “drive-stunned” and could.

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Especially interesting is that the police told him to stand up over 20 times before each tazing. They even let him make his little speech (they did not say a word).

I can’t believe how he screamed like a child at the top of his lungs, then calmly made his speech.

Gangs “beat you in” to join. I would not be surprised to learn that whatever sick group he belongs to had a tazer ritual.

Considering the gathering (CAIR, etc.) I doubt he had trouble getting in – so what was his “beef”? Obviously staged.

Agrippa2k on November 17, 2006 at 5:48 PM

And by the way. From now on there is only one acceptable method of spelling. That is Tazed, with a Z.

Yeah, I know the company spells it with an “s”, but so what? That’s just a sucky spelling.

You gotta have the Z in it so you can get that good zzzzzzzz sound. Just like the crackeling buzz you hear when the tazer is activated.

I have made my decision.

So it is written. So let it be done.

EFG on November 17, 2006 at 5:50 PM

Well,

Were those rulings before all the recent rash of taser deaths are after Allah? Are you saying that new evidence on the lethality wouldn’t cause the next case to come out differently?
I am not a lawyer guy, just an oil executive, but come on. Six cops could have hand cuffed him and removed him. If the school is so interested in student safety, they should put a card swipe on the door. There are easy solutions here that don’t call for a militaristic police force.
I could just imagine the size of the taser that would have been needed when the shut you’re blog Allah. Justice, isn’t it grand.
More police more police.

Rustyw on November 17, 2006 at 5:54 PM

Anyone who screams at the top of their lungs like a 4 year old child after being clinically asked to comply deserves a few taser’s in my book.

Make that screams like a four year old girl. What a girlie mon.

wytammic on November 17, 2006 at 6:04 PM

Every time he screamed, I heard my Mom’s voice saying, “You better hush and dry up or I am going to give you something to cry about!” and started giggling. It really did sound to me like a child throwing a tantrum.

B Moe on November 17, 2006 at 6:08 PM

By the time they get him to the first doorway, they have to taze him again. This time they tell him to “get up/stand up” over 50 times. During which he makes another speech – “Won’t no one stop these people? Am I the only martyr here?”

At one point he screams like he is being tazed for an extra long time no reason. All you have to to is consider the tactics of anarchist groups.

Agrippa2k on November 17, 2006 at 6:10 PM

Wheels keep turning
Somethings burning
Dont like it but I guess I’m learning

Pablo on November 17, 2006 at 6:10 PM

It really did sound to me like a child throwing a tantrum.

And there lies the definition of a liberal.

Gregor on November 17, 2006 at 6:12 PM

I take from your comments that you’re not a POST certified police officer. And with the anger you have built up its a good thing. Understand one thing. At every fight a police officer is involved in there is one thing in common. There’s at least one gun. And usually its the officer who brought it. Before you run your mouth about how bad police are I suggest you take a look at this, or maybe this. You notice that the later was killed while making a traffic stop on Florida. But that won’t make national headlines. Guess an idiot trying to make a point is more newsworthy than an Officer killed in the line of duty. Have a nice day Rustyw.

SPIFF1669 on November 17, 2006 at 6:14 PM

Must control college students;
148 people in the United States and Canada have died as a result of the use of Tasers since 1999.

Rustyw on November 17, 2006 at 6:22 PM

Putting a card swipe wouldn’t really help. As long as someone has a card, they could easily let someone else in. UCLA is more concerned about transcript security than anything else. God forbid anyone know what your grades are.

wherestherum on November 17, 2006 at 6:30 PM

John Hawkins linked to the Chris Rock video, and I remembered the AFHV of the guy with the shock collar for dogs, both here:

John Hawkins has advice

DANEgerus on November 17, 2006 at 6:34 PM

Quick! Somebody tazer Rusty!

Gregor on November 17, 2006 at 6:37 PM

The fact that MeCHA, CAIR, the ACLU, and ANSWER are in on this convinces me that he really did have it coming.

wherestherum on November 17, 2006 at 6:38 PM

148 people in the United States and Canada have died as a result of the use of Tasers since 1999

and the world is no doubt a better place for it.

Gregor on November 17, 2006 at 6:38 PM

SPIFF.
I clearly stated on most post what I do, so you’re perception is uncanny.
I am not sure about where you live, but once again, I posted where I do. There has not been one unpublished death of a police officer in this area. All of them make the news and they are well published. What dose not get publicity are the non existence sentences that officers receive when they are on the wrong side. I don’t want to change this argument in to one about the Houston police or Texas highway patrol, but it would be easy.
You’re photos do not change my mind. Both sides could produce them. What is alarming is the way police rely on these random stops to do there job. An emphasis on investigators rather than traffic cops would help.
Cops lie just like every other human on the planet. They are not immune because you or I say so. Limit government.
The idiot making an ass out of him self is not national news. Police officers, six of them, tasering students that have paid to be at a university are.
How many of those police deaths occurred on a campus?
So before you run you’re mouth realize that there are many ways to enforce minor rules than sending six officers with tasors. Have a nice evening SPIFF.

Rustyw on November 17, 2006 at 6:39 PM

To me it looks like this guy was already handcuffed when they started tazing him.

So I don’t think they tazed him because he was a threat. I think they tazed him to get compliance.

Which seems kind of harsh, but I don’t have any problem with it. Police need compliance, or the whole system can break down.

What happens if people just start refusing to walk when ever apprehended? Do police have to start carrying every criminal who just decides to go limp? OK, if the guy is just 5 feet away from a patrol car, that is no problem. But what if you have to walk him a hundred yards or two. What if there is only one officer, or two?

And suppose there are four officers, who can carry him? Doesn’t that limit their ability to respond to other threats other people might make or do while they are occupied with carrying this guy?

At these posts, people are saying the cops shouldn’t have punched that one guy to handcuff him. They said they should have used a pain compliance method. Well what is the tazer except just one big pain compliance tool? (yeah, I know it can cause you to loose temporary muscle control)

That is all any of these methods are. Tools to make somebody comply with something they don’t want to do. It is just the nature of the beast that forcing someone to do something can be a ugly thing.
.
.
.
.
Or you can just say “Now pretty please, with sugar on top. Stand up and walk.” See how far that gets you.

And yes, even pretty please would still have stimulated the “here’s your f*cking Patriot Act” somehow.

It just goes without saying that this guy was just looking for a chance to throw that card down.

EFG on November 17, 2006 at 6:43 PM

Wherestherum,

They have transcripts in the libary? How many students were hurt in this libary before these new rules were brought in?

I bet if you had to have a card to get in, you would have it when an officer asked for it.

Het Judge Gregor, didn’t I see you’re movie! Oh great, lets just call this the DU. Name calling. How stupid is that, no let’s not discuse anything. Lets call folks names and stuff. That will get the majority back! Lets start the flag burning aadmendment again. Wow, no wonder we lost.

Rustyw on November 17, 2006 at 6:45 PM

Rustyw,

Most of us understand that there are bad cops as well as good ones. We’re just more inclined to take a cop’s word over someone who is obviously looking for trouble. Seems to me if you try to pick a fight with cops you’re looking to get your butt kicked.

wherestherum on November 17, 2006 at 6:47 PM

How about less stupid laws? Then we won’t have a problem with complying. It won’t be long untill we are all tested for nicotine. We are becoming cash cows. Got to go, I’ll ck. back tomorrow.

Rustyw on November 17, 2006 at 6:47 PM

I wasn’t saying there were transcipts in the library. I’m just saying that there is tougher security for unimportant things. I always carried my ID with me so I don’t know why this kid decided to pick a fight with the CSOs when they asked for his ID. When I attended the school, the only violent incident I heard about was a suicide in a dorm. I was at the school from 2004-2006.

wherestherum on November 17, 2006 at 6:50 PM

Less stupid laws? Then vote Libertarian.

wherestherum on November 17, 2006 at 6:51 PM

Rusty, you’re the only one name calling. You’re acting like the UCLA student and every other whining crybaby liberal.

EFG –

What happens if people just start refusing to walk when ever apprehended? Do police have to start carrying every criminal who just decides to go limp?

Great point! And this again illustrates the liberal mindset. Tie yourselves to trees. Sit on the ground like Cindy Sheehan and just cry and scream “I WON’T GO.” Liberals have been trained to do this since birth. Instead of spankings or any sort of punishment … they were instead given time-outs and rewards to buy good behavior.

What’s happening now is no surprise.

Gregor on November 17, 2006 at 6:52 PM

So this is what our Universities have become with the influence of liberals, lawyers and “civil rights groups.” Taser boy should be charged with inciting a riot.

Maxx on November 17, 2006 at 6:55 PM

With all of this – I wonder what was said in the conference?

No doubt another condemnation of America and Israel. Where are the hidden cameras?

Agrippa2k on November 17, 2006 at 7:00 PM

Everyone commenting they should have cuffed him and carried him out are jumping to a conclusion: that the officers were strong and in good enough physical shape to do so! The Taser could be the result of the elimination of physical standards in law enforcement and so blame the liberals. It was not long ago a police chief was fired for suggesting his force was out of shape (was that in California I forget?)

Resolute on November 17, 2006 at 7:06 PM

Let me say for the billionth time: This was not LAPD. It the University of California Campus Police. They are an entirely different entity then LAPD. As to taser deaths, if you actually read the facts of those incidents and not the Amnesty International crap, you will see that almost all were under the influence of meth or cocaine. Combine that with resisting arrest, causes metabolic changes that will cause some people’s hearts to stop. So, the next time you snort an eight-ball, and decide to run naked on the 101 and fight the cops when they try to take you in custody, you do so at your own risk.

EF on November 17, 2006 at 7:11 PM

In a time before tazers I was present at a convenience store when an attempted robbery occured. The guy was so drugged up it took 3 beefy cops to take this guy down. Several baton whacks didn’t even make him blink much less drive him to his knees. Had it been on video today.. libs would have screamed police brutality but I was there and saw what it took. Videos don’t tell the whole story.

Sounds like a set up which is the only way Libs can make a point.

GoodBoy on November 17, 2006 at 7:44 PM

Obviously, this guy was looking for a confrontation. I’m sure CAIR and other groups are filing as we speak. What we need now is a copy of the police report.
Who is the guy?
Where does he live?
Where are his Parents?
What groups does he belong to?
Why did he set this up?
Is he part of an organization, such as CAIR, that wishes the USA ill?
Is he Muslim?
I think we are going to see more and more of this along with “random attacks” in the comming weeks. I predict at least 1 suicide bombing in the country within the next 12 months.

mc2d on November 17, 2006 at 8:10 PM

I have worked with terrorist detainees and seen people both dry stunned (contact w/ gun rather than shooting the probes) and shot. You can move after you’re tased. It’s not like 24 where you get blasted for 3 seconds and you pass out. While you are actually being tased (when you hear that clacking sounds) you can’t move… but immediatley after they release the trigger you can move.

BadBrad on November 17, 2006 at 9:14 PM

Once again…it wouldn’t have taken but one officer if the idiot would have done what he was asked to do…he chose the battle….and lost…..but then again police officers are not paid to lose…and they can’t afford too. The stakes are too high. Ride the lightning boy…..

SPIFF1669 on November 17, 2006 at 9:20 PM

DB actually found the youtube video, but it got lost in the thread and overlooked. Figured I’d send it directly to the people behind the curtain to get it up on the top.

Enoxo on November 17, 2006 at 9:36 PM

Ah young scholars. -and they allways think they need to immediately take your badge number and talk to you while you’re in the middle of an arrest – because they obviously know more about the world than you and their immediate right to question authority takes priority over your officer safety.

It will be interesting to see if some new gadget or policy is invented to make an arrest of a jerk loudmouth like this “less shocking” to the public conscience. How long will it last before it goes the way of capture nets, lift-stretchers or some exotic martial-art come-along hold.

Limp protestors tend to get squirmy when you pick them up, and wacking your back out forever over them just isn’t worth it.

In the end, you’re back’s going to hurt anyway. Don’t quicken it. -my 2 cents anyway.

Dan866 on November 17, 2006 at 10:11 PM

Sometimes they don’t pay these people enough

EricPWJohnson on November 17, 2006 at 10:17 PM

The people asking for the badge numbers were expecting the officers to stop what they were doing, turn around, and give out their info during an arrest? I want to say that they should be given the job of police officers for a day and see how easy that is, but then, I don’t think any of us want them o be police officers even for a day.

Eric12470210 on November 17, 2006 at 10:33 PM

As an ex-cop I say well done, sir.

x95b10 on November 17, 2006 at 10:37 PM

I thought cops were supposed to use tasers to repel physical attacks, though, not to subdue nonviolent (albeit loud and obnoxious) resisters.

That was the original marketing. It has progressed and will progress further.

I of course think he got what he deserved …

The kid in the video is a moron, but you would think twice if it was you, your wife or kids being made compliant. Stop and think about it for a moment. The moron was not threatening or endangering.

Bring an unlawful situation under control without bringing unnecessary risk to the officer or the suspect.

Pray tell me, who was at risk of harm? He was clearly not threatening or endangering himself or anyone else.

Thank God for those neighbors of ours that are willing to wear a badge to protect us from the potential and unperceived dangers…an educated (so called) man.

The true statement from a coward and a shirker.

Protect you?!?!?!? How much do you value your own life? Apparently not much. You think someone else will do it for you for a couple dollars an hour? Do you value the life of the officer less?

I have news for you … Go read your local statues and you will find the “no duty” clause. Law enforcement personnel have NO responsibility to protect you. The courts have spoken clearly on this. And you call yourself a conservative? Find a little self discipline and accept the responsibility to protect yourself.

Oh man I need to get one of those tasers! I know a few liberals too. That looks like fun!

Saddam’s kids probably started off in a similar fashion.

Whether the person is a moron or not, if you enjoy watching another human being be tased or stunned, you need some help.

AZ_Redneck on November 17, 2006 at 10:45 PM

What if the cops had bad backs? Why should they have to carry the slug out? Just tase him and be done with it.

bloggless on November 17, 2006 at 10:46 PM

I watched the video yesterday and I read comments at the You-Tube site under the UCLA student tasered site.

The perpetrator’s comment about “This is your Patriot Act” is hilarious!

His case has nothing to do with the Patriot Act. He did not cooperate with the accepted campus student authority. He displayed a clear desire to make a scene, the little drama queen!

Many who got into the act appeared to have that “cops are mean” mindset, and gave the kid a free pass.

The video is about as helpful as having Vaseline on your eyes in a dark room with people who are one foot taller than you blocking your view of a Kodak moment.

Nevertheless, the loudmouth perpetrator can be heard inciting a scene. He goes on and on and on and on and on.

I am asking myself, “Self, why don’t these police, or whoever they are, shut this guy up and get him out of that environment where his victim shtick is being fueled by the anti-cop aura?”

Of course, it appears that the folks on the scene were not real cops, but fellow students. The cops came later.

How do you handle a loud mouth?

1) Ignore him.

2) Take him out of the equation by removing him from the room.

Overwhelming force applied quickly and decisively gets the job done.

Dragging it out only reaps the rewards that these poor student police, or whatever they are called, have now sown.

William

William2006 on November 17, 2006 at 11:12 PM

Whether the person is a moron or not, if you enjoy watching another human being be tased or stunned, you need some help.

AZ_Redneck on November 17, 2006 at 10:45 PM

I watched the video several times.

Did you see the perp getting tasered?

Could you even see anything?

I could hear the little twerp, or big twerp, or whatever he is, screaming his head off, drawing attention to himself.

Did he think that Hollywood talent agents were nearby and he was auditioning for a movie?

Once the guy did not cooperate the student protection services should have detained the guy till the campus police arrived. Once the campus police arrived, in force, they could have offered the loudmouth a choice, either leave peacefully, or be carried out, post haste.

Once a limited, preset time period elapsed, the campus police, or off campus community police, can then either escort him out of the building and off campus, or wherever he belongs, and prevent his reentry into the Library, or they can haul his sorry behind out of the building, into the paddy wagon, and off to the hooskaw for disturbing police, disobeying the order of a law enforcement officer, resisting arrest, and so on.

The behavior of the perp shows me that he did not learn manners, discipline, or self control, he is rebellious toward authority, and he likes to start trouble, and, when it comes, he likes to make a big deal out of it, making himself the victim.

I do not endorse torturing anyone, nevertheless, it is clear that this guy was not disabled by this so-called tasering. His mouth was still running, he was still resisting the authorities, and his voice was so loud, he could have competed in the Luciano Pavaroti Classically trained opera singer competition in which you should be able to fill an entire concert hall with your voice without a microphone.

I won’t be surprised if I find this guy’s photo from past anti-US “demonstrations,” which preceded this incident, and also in future anti-US, pro-Iran, and pro-Islamic Jihadi “demonstrations.”

William

William2006 on November 17, 2006 at 11:23 PM

RalphyBoy on November 18, 2006 at 12:22 AM

Let’s try this again

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/201/chl-communicate.wav

RalphyBoy on November 18, 2006 at 12:23 AM

William2006 on November 17, 2006 at 11:23 PM

Could the moron have set it up? Sure. My reaction was more aimed at many of the comments I read. I am not anti-cop, but I am a citizen concerned with the militarization of civilian law enforcement personnel and encroachment of the government.

… they could have offered the loudmouth a choice, either leave peacefully, or be carried out, post haste.

I agree. I believe the situation was poorly handled.

I do not endorse torturing anyone …

I do. When bad guys have information about pending heinous acts, and the retreival of particular information will save American lives, you bet. I will be the one holding him down on the water board.

I won’t be surprised if I find this guy’s photo from past anti-US “demonstrations,” which preceded this incident, and also in future anti-US, pro-Iran, and pro-Islamic Jihadi “demonstrations.”

Sure. I wouldn’t be surprised either. The moron can demonstrate until the cows come home for all I care. If he endangers my wife or kids, or raises arms against my country, that’s a different story and there will be a heap of hurt raining down on him.

AZ_Redneck on November 18, 2006 at 12:46 AM

Let’s try this again

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/201/chl-communicate.wav

RalphyBoy on November 18, 2006 at 12:23 AM

Terrific!

“What we have heeya, is a faylya to commyoonicate.”

I love to run that one my wife and kids just for fun, while sitting at the table, driving in the car, hanging out at the zoo, or whenever or wherever.

They hear it from time to time.

There reaction?

“Oh, dad’s doing that thing again.” They still haven’t seen “Cool Hand Luke.”

“Yoa mind ain’t right. We got ta git yoa mind right, boy.”

Anyway,

That is how this troublemaker acted, like he wanted to attention and asked for it. “Please, please. I am a naughty boy. Won’t you please help me?”

He really does demonstrate such behavior.

“Here’s your Patriot Act!”

Right.

William

William2006 on November 18, 2006 at 12:49 AM

The cops were morons for playing right into this kid’s hands. It was clearly his plan to cause trouble and by breaking out the taser they gave him everything he wanted and more. Now he’s going to be all over the news, called a hero by some, and probably win a couple hundred grand in the lawsuit. Cops should know better; using a taser on a college kid laying on the floor of a library on camera is just not smart. Didn’t they see this coming? The kid was a punk and they let him win. Ignore him, handle it quietly, and he goes back to his room and complains to his roommate about how his plan didn’t work. Now they have to worry about their jobs and he has to worry about which TV shows to do and how much he should sue them for. I’m not defending him, perhaps he did deserve the taser, but giving it to him in that situation was just stupid.

Bingo!!

The kid’s screams as he is getting tazed was the funniest thing I’ve heard all week! His is a punk and an ass but in all honesty this was a very poorly handled situation. If the kid won’t get up just carry him or drag him. There is nothing like being dragged over carpet or concrete to make a man want to get up and walk on his own. Standing there screaming at him “Get up!” when it is perfectly clear he has no intention of getting up is retarded and pointless. It clearly just served to increase the tension already present in the situation. By the end they still carried him out anyway which they should have done in the first place. Carrying a guy who doesn’t co-operate is a pain in the ass but not half as bad as the lawsuit you get for tazing him repeatedly for not standing up and walking on his own.

If this was a set up then the cops got seriously played and it is their own fault. This isn’t police brutality in my book but it is stupid. Again once the guy is on the ground pick him up and carry him. If he screams – so what, who cares? The guy looks like a psycho. Tazer him repeatedly and he looks, to the spectators, like a helpless victim being brutalized.

Halcyon on November 18, 2006 at 2:33 AM

Typical muslim behavior: first, act out, then whine when facing the consequences.

Kim Hartveld on November 18, 2006 at 7:20 AM

When anyone creates this kind of commotion, they are really screaming for attention and limits….. And he definitely got his fill of attention before he got tasered. In my opinion they should have shot him much, much sooner and gotten him to a place out of the limelight.

When we are too childish to get our human needs met inmore positive ways, we will surely take the lazy, cowardly way of least resort. Only when it becomes less and less productive will we give it up. What a baby this man is.

Webutante

Webutante on November 18, 2006 at 8:36 AM

These cops are toast. Rightfully so. First for unwarranted use of violence, second for ratcheting the situation up instead of down. So the kid was baiting them? Great, rise to the bait morons.

honora on November 18, 2006 at 9:09 AM

These cops are toast. Rightfully so. First for unwarranted use of violence, second for ratcheting the situation up instead of down. So the kid was baiting them? Great, rise to the bait morons.

Ahhh, typical liberal logic. Anyone who breaks the rules and challenges authority is right, cops always wrong. This logic invariably always punishes the poor cops who are only trying to do what they’re paid to do, while the instigator comes off as some type of “hero” for rebuking the directives of the cops.

All that does is perpetuate more assholes to do more of the same because they can get away with it. Bottom line is the jerk started it by disregarding the library rules in the first place. If he would have left when asked none of this would have happened. Back in the good old days of common sense people would have either kicked this ass out themselves or cheered the cops when they removed an unwanted trouble maker from their midst.

Just goes to show exactly what “liberal values” are.

darwin on November 18, 2006 at 9:32 AM

Ahhh, typical liberal logic

No, just plain logic. This weapon is designed to subdue people who are posing a threat to the police or to others. This kid may be the biggest asshole who ever walked the earth, but he was not a threat. He went limp as a protest, the SOP would be to drag him out. Using a weapon was uncalled for and as I pointed out, actually made a minor situation more dangerous for all involved, including the police.

You take my comment and build your own little story–that I am trying to make the instigator look like some kind of hero. Well, no, that’s your narrative.

Yet another elegant example of the difference between idealogy and philosophy–the idealogue already knows the answer and the actual facts are irrelevant. You “know”
-cops are always right
-Irania kid is always wrong
-liberal (like me) wants to make the kid a hero

But that’s not the case. Not for a minute do I assume this makes a whit of difference to your interpretation.

honora on November 18, 2006 at 11:05 AM

I suppose the liberals wold like a return to the old days – nightsticks to the knees and groin. The kid was fine enough to scream about the Patriot Act and have a news conference the next day without any physical damage.

This is non-lethal force used to subdue a suspect who was belligerantly disobeying the simple orders of arresting officers – perfectly legal and warranted. Did the moron stand up after the first time he was ordered? Before the cops tasered him? Nope. He played with fire, and he got burned.

He got what he deserved. College – meet real world. You don’t spit on cops and expect them to sh*t you Tiffinay cufflinks.

Good Lt on November 18, 2006 at 11:34 AM

Gregor,
Rusty, you’re the only one name calling. You’re acting like the UCLA student and every other whining crybaby liberal.
Why thank you for you’re input on this blog. I am dumbfounded by you’re insite. Man, I wish I could disscuse topics like you. Here are the rest of you’re jewels Gregor;
You’re acting like the UCLA student and every other whining crybaby liberal.
and the world is no doubt a better place for it.
Quick! Somebody tazer Rusty!
And there lies the definition of a liberal.
Just shoot him and be done with it. Tired of this nonsense.
Wow. Impressive mind. Yep makes me want to join you and you’re cause.
Wherestherum,
Thanks for the clarification. Yes I agree with you. It’s time to revamp the libertarian party.
AZ_Redneck,

You and I are on the same page.

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 12:08 PM

Yet another elegant example of the difference between idealogy and philosophy–the idealogue already knows the answer and the actual facts are irrelevant.

You’ve already given the asshole a pass by labeling his anti-social behavior as a “protest”. It was disruptive and potentially violent. The cops had no idea how this jerk would react and could have kicked, bit, spat or hit as he was being dragged out. Best to err on the side of caution than “idealism” as you do. Next time you see some disruptive asshole out somewhere, go subdue them yourself and leave the cops out of it.

darwin on November 18, 2006 at 12:12 PM

Now that I see the list of ‘activists’ that have come to his side I now know without a shadow of doubt that he deliberately provoked this whole incident to get a lawsuit going and make himself into a leftard martyr.

I’ll bet dinars to donuts that his little ‘Patriot Act’ speech, was rehearsed ahead of time.

MoxArgon on November 18, 2006 at 12:37 PM

If UCLA’s campus cops did anything wrong it’s this. They didn’t bring a bucket of water along to soak the little prick before they tasered him.

It’s LA guys. So think ‘entertainment value’ for the public’s dollar – and better luck – next time! :)

Wonder if this Mostafa f.ck had an out of body and got a look at any of his 72 virgo intactas in waiting?

Teddy on November 18, 2006 at 12:53 PM

Just for edification water does not effect the taser. The taser can be used in the water safely and effectively. But lets look at some talking points. The kid went limp so they should have just picked him up. Well first you have to know that his intention is passive resistence and not just a ploy to get the officer close enough to fight. Something none of us knew except for the suspect. The officer on the scene is responsible for getting an unlawful situation under control with the least amount of force necessary. I’ve been sprayed with chemical spray and I’ve been tased using the probes. Both suck but given the choice again tase me. Its over in 5 seconds and then its just a bad memory. Spray you usually can’t open your eyes for about 45 minutes and still feel the effect the next day. Plus spray you can’t control who else it effects. The officer used the taser without the probes. Its called Drive Stun. It is purely a pain compliance method. Thats why the kid was able to scream. If he’d used the probes the kid would not have been able to scream like that. He’d of just clinched up.

SPIFF1669 on November 18, 2006 at 1:45 PM

AZ_Redneck: “The kid in the video is a moron, but you would think twice if it was you, your wife or kids being made compliant. Stop and think about it for a moment. The moron was not threatening or endangering.

Hmmm. I’ve stopped and thought about it for a moment. If it were me being tasered, I would think, “Why didn’t I leave after being ordered to by three different sets of cops? Why did I escalate the situation until I had to be tasered to leave instead of just going home to get my college ID. Boy, am I a moron!”

If it were my wife who was tasered after making a half hour scene at the library because she didn’t have the student ID required for entrance, I would think, “What kind of an idiot have I married? Is she going to make the same sort of belligerent scene if I don’t pass the applesauce or cut the grass?”

If it was my kid, I would read him the riot act for resisting the police and then rib him the rest of his life everytime he refused to do something necessary: “Do you have to be tasered to do the right thing?”

As for saying that the cops had no right to touch the jerk because he wasn’t threatening nor dangerous, that’s a brilliant insight, AZ_Redneck. I guess the university has no right to exclude non-students from their facilities. Let the street people flood the building and bed down in the stacks. And if you are caught trespassing, all you have to do is say you’re a protestor and that trumps everything else. If you are caught in a misdemeanor, all you have to do is belligerently resist the police and they have to leave, not you.

Anon: “Thank God for those neighbors of ours that are willing to wear a badge to protect us from the potential and unperceived dangers…an educated (so called) man.”

AZ_Redneck: “The true statement from a coward and a shirker. Protect you?!?!?!? How much do you value your own life? Apparently not much. You think someone else will do it for you for a couple dollars an hour? Do you value the life of the officer less?

I have news for you … Go read your local statues and you will find the “no duty” clause. Law enforcement personnel have NO responsibility to protect you. The courts have spoken clearly on this. And you call yourself a conservative? Find a little self discipline and accept the responsibility to protect yourself.

What an interesting argument, AZ_Redneck. Why don’t you go tell it to the fifty-nine police officers who died saving people in the World Trade Center on Sep 11? I guess they never heard about the no duty clause.

Anon: “Oh man I need to get one of those tasers! I know a few liberals too. That looks like fun!”

AZ_Redneck: “Saddam’s kids probably started off in a similar fashion.”

Uday and Qusay believed themselves to be above the law and untouchable, just as you believe this moronic trespasser should be. This jerk’s antics strongly resemble the antics of Saddam Hussein in court. Both believe the law should not apply to them.

I have watched many a lefty throw snowballs, potted plants, and pop cans at the police at “peace” marches here in DC without any repercussions whatsoever. So I consequently derive delight from seeing a lefty loudmouth, who adamantly refuses to comply with cop after cop politely telling him to leave, get his ass tasered. It may be the only way lefties learn respect for anyone else is be tasered.

Tantor on November 18, 2006 at 1:47 PM

Mmmmm, tazer!!

I can’t imagine the stench, though. I mean, have you ever smelled roasted hippie?? BLECCCCCHHHH!!!

I love the smell of roasted hippie in the morning…..It smells like……….VICTORY!

ronsfi on November 18, 2006 at 2:14 PM

So everyone wants a straw man to fight.
Bottom line, is this provision of the patriot act needed to keep us safe from terror? (the controversial provision of the Patriot Act which provides for repeated tasing of any students who are slow to leave a university library.)
If in fact reasonable people think that this is uncalled for and if reasonable people think more than 10 students should be allowed to study in a library at a university after ten a clock, then they should do something to stop the madness. This is a University. If there is any place for non violent protest left in this country it is at a University.
So what do we have in this blog? We have one group that says the law is the law. Cops execute the law. This is how it is done. If a cop says do anything you are supposed to do it or face the punishment.
It has been said the law can’t help you, but it can punish you. I believe that to be true. If any of you have ever had a break in or a car stolen then you know what I mean. The law has no intention of helping you. But given a chance to traser up a college student? No problem getting some law there.
Then we have the screw all folks that don’t believe in 100% conservative mind set, in their opinion. Well, those types are on both sides. That doesn’t make them any less of a bully. It is also illustrative as to why the conservative libertarians, myself, have abandon you in droves.
Then there are the lawyers, the libertarians, and I don’t think any leftist. I am not sure what every one means by liberal, but I think they mean leftist. Democracy is liberal folks.
I know, I’ve wandered. But seriously, if our government was interested in our security, they would have closed the boarders immediately? Instead, we get some restrictive laws that allow college kids to be tasered for using the library after ten with out his ID. Pathetic.
This law is there so that our police can discipline us to behave as some one, perhaps many of you on this blog, wants them to. Yea, freedom.
So when you crow about this, remember, you are know different than the rest of them. You only care about making everyone behave as you wish. They only care about making everyone behave as they wish. That is why we get more cops every year. The speed traps, the searches every time one is pulled over. The intrusions of privacy. Search warrants are practically a thing of the past. Soon we will have random searches of houses. I could go on and on.
On top of it everyone puts a super human mantel on top of these cops. They are people, people that have all the same short comings as us all. If I put the whole army on the boarder would it stop drugs? No, it would funnel the drugs through the pay off areas.
We need less government. Less taxes. Less control over us. We don’t even own our property anymore. We just rent it from the government. Feudalism. Shouldn’t we at least taser all the folks behind on their taxes? Isn’t that a little more serious than not having you’re Id after 11:00?
Maybe we can get those swell numbers tattooed on our arm’s instead? Then the cops will know who to billy club or taser.
What is next? How about a law that allows us to taser students that don’t put their book back on the shelves? I bet a lot of folks in this comment section would salivate over that law. Then you could get those malcontents. Geeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 2:19 PM

Isn’t that a little more serious than not having you’re Id after 11:00?

No. On campus rape, sexual assault, and theft are bigger crimes. They check IDs to keep out people who do not belong there.

EF on November 18, 2006 at 2:33 PM

EF,
As I said before, then put a card swipe. Look, I have 232 hours a university education. Even as long ago as 1985 the University of Houston had card swipes at the entrance. You know, the entrance where the front desk is, where people sit, even after ten……
Now I will bet you any amount of money that there has never been a problem with on campus rape, sexual assault in that library or any other. Now theft, well, I can tell you only having students around will not solve a theft problem.
So EF, are you saying that this provision is a necessary part of the Patriot act and the war on terror?

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 2:42 PM

My masters sat to dine,
Full of liberty your’s and mine,
Is there nothing for the non powerful I yelled?
Yes they said and belched up the law.

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 2:49 PM

The woman in the taser demonstration video couldn’t move while she was being tasered, but she could stand on her own and walk just seconds after. That guy’s screaming in the library was pure liberal street theater (or library theater, in this case).

Here are some more good examples of the temporary effects of a taser — and these are the more effective projectile kind:

Policeman demonstrates and explains taser

Dog gets tasered, recovers immediately and runs off

I can’t find the one I was looking for, but there a lot of police training videos online showing policemen and women getting projectile tasered and the effects are clearly dramatic… but quite temporary. As you may have seen, there are also tons of videos on YouTube and elsewhere of people “drive stunning” each other for fun! It isn’t anywhere near so bad as this thespian wants people to believe. Police brutality it’s not — that would have lasting effects — but it looks like a lot of people are buying this drama queen’s performance.

insomni on November 18, 2006 at 3:05 PM

I think we can all agree that, there are plenty examples of low level taser blasts on the net.
I think we can all agree that the situation was set up by the student.
I think we can all agree he did it to challenge what he believed to be a stupid law.
I think we can all agree that he over acted.
I think we can all agree that the majority of the cops out there are good people.
I think we can all believe the cops behaved as they felt they should when they tried to enforce the law that was written.
Now can we just get past that? Isn’t there one person here that believes this should be in the patriot act? Why? Do you think it costs the right votes when they insist on stuff like this? Do you think it costs the right votes when you are called unpatriotic for saying this is stupid?

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:11 PM

Here’s another one where a woman hit by a taser (projectile) for two seconds immediately walks off. Notice the lack of sustained screaming! Either she’s extremely tough or the Taser Tot in the library was playing for your sympathy.

And here’s a good example of someone who had her Taser treat coming and reacted similarly to the oppressed trespasser.

insomni on November 18, 2006 at 3:16 PM

Rustyw, what are you talking about? What should be in the Patriot Act? The only connection this incident has with the Patriot Act is that this attention-starved wuss decided to scream about it while being dragged off for trespassing. Is there some other connection I’m missing?

insomni on November 18, 2006 at 3:20 PM

Fine,
Let’s argue over stupid stuff.
Well go to useless junk. They have tons of folks falling over. They are doing it on purpose though. No I don’t know, but if I were a cop and that was all the device would do, then I probably wouldn’t use it. I’d use my club. Do you think a cop taser only bumps someone? No they use the setting where it stuns someone, abet temporarily. Here is another hint. If it isn’t effective the first time, they turn it up.
The truth is, you don’t know. So enough of the useless analogies.

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:25 PM

insomni,

Didn’t you read the links? Let me help;
He is referring, of course, to the controversial provision of the Patriot Act which provides for repeated tasing of any students who are slow to leave a university library.
http://patterico.com/2006/11/17/5405/student-protests-patriot-act/

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:27 PM

Why do you think he is screaming here is you’re patriot act?
It is a protest that is designed to show how stupid this part of the law is.

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:30 PM

Rustyw, there is no such provision. See, that was sarcasm. Patterico was being sarcastic.

insomni on November 18, 2006 at 3:31 PM

Well then I am the stupid one.

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:34 PM

So you mean he was tasered for a policy? Not even a law? A school official says this is so, taser anyone who breaks my rule?

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:36 PM

So you mean he was tasered for a policy? Not even a law? A school official says this is so, taser anyone who breaks my rule?

He was stunned for being a potential danger to the cops and for refusing to obey their directives. The jerk got off light. I was wondering though, where you were getting the Patriot act bit. Now I know …

darwin on November 18, 2006 at 3:41 PM

Well,
What dose the daily Brun say?
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960

Tabatabainejad was walking with his backpack toward the door when he was approached by two UCPD officers, one of whom grabbed the student’s arm. In response, Tabatabainejad yelled at the officers to “get off me.” Following this demand, Tabatabainejad was stunned with a Taser.
But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so.
Tabatabainejad was also stunned with the Taser when he was already handcuffed, said Carlos Zaragoza, a third-year English and history student who witnessed the incident.

“(He was) no possible danger to any of the police,” Zaragoza said. “(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed.”

But Young said at the time the police likely had no way of knowing whether the individual was armed or that he was a student.
During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would “get Tased too.” At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser.

Such a threat of the use of force by a law enforcement officer in response to a request for a badge number is an “illegal assault,” Eliasberg said.

“It is absolutely illegal to threaten anyone who asks for a badge — that’s assault,” he said.
Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.
The incident, which Zaragoza described as an example of “police brutality,” left many students disturbed.

“I realize when looking at these kind of arrest tapes that they don’t always show the full picture. … But that six minutes that we can watch just seems like it’s a ridiculous amount of force for someone being escorted because they forgot their BruinCard,” said Ali Ghandour, a fourth-year anthropology student.

“It certainly makes you wonder if something as small as forgetting your BruinCard can eventually lead to getting Tased several times in front of the library,” he added.

Edouard Tchertchian, a third-year mathematics student, said he was concerned that the student was not offered any other means of showing that he was a UCLA student.

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:43 PM

LA Times
“It was beyond grotesque,” said UCLA graduate David Remesnitsky of Los Angeles, who witnessed the incident. “By the end they took him over the stairs, lifted him up and Tasered him on his rear end. It seemed like it was inappropriately placed. The Tasering was so unnecessary and they just kept doing it.”

Campus police confirmed that Tabatabainejad was stunned “multiple” times.

By then, Remesnitsky said, a crowd of 50 or 60 had gathered and were shouting at the officers to stop and demanding their names and badge numbers.

Remesnitsky said officers told him to leave or he would be Tasered.

Tabatabainejad declined to comment. He was arrested Tuesday night and cited by campus police for resisting and obstructing a police officer and was released.

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:51 PM

NBC4 News
Officers were escorting Tabatabainejad out of the computer lab when the trouble started, according to the Daily Bruin. One of the officers placed a hand on one of his arms, to which the student objected.

As a second officer approached, he repeatedly yelled “get off of me,” the newspaper reported.

It was then that one of the officers shot Tabatabainejad with a stun gun, dropping him to the floor as he cried out, according to the newspaper.

“Any student who witnessed it was left with an image you don’t want to remember,” said a witness who asked not to be identified.

When asked whether the student resisted when officer attempted to escort him from the building, the witness said, “In the beginning, no. But when they were holding onto him and they were on the ground, he was trying to just break free. He was saying, ‘I’m leaving, I’m leaving.’ It was so disturbing to watch that I cannot be concise on that. I can just say that he was willing to leave. He had his backpack on his shoulder and he was walking out when the cops approached him. It was unnecessary.”

Greenstein said a Community Service Officer employed by the library was performing a nightly check to ensure that all patrons using the library after 11 p.m. were authorized to be there.

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:55 PM

Why again darwin?

Officers were escorting Tabatabainejad out of the computer lab when the trouble started, according to the Daily Bruin. One of the officers placed a hand on one of his arms, to which the student objected.

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 3:57 PM

Somehow that really doesn’t sound like an objective report of what happened. Just based on how he was primed and ready to start screaming “Patriot Act!” makes me doubt he was just some poor, passive student who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. These cops were called there for a reason … by the library staff I believe. Personally, I think it’s a big ado about nothing. People always questioning cops though. Ever been a cop? I haven’t. I know damn well they experience more stress in one week than I do all year yet for the most part act like professionals. Same with the military. Everyone who’s never been in thinks they’re a friggin’ expert when they don’t have a clue.

darwin on November 18, 2006 at 4:00 PM

Regardless,
I saw the statement in all three of the papers from the area. Anyway, the papers also explain why they were called, so we don’t have to speculate. Just start with the Brun. Hey since everyone thinks it is such a great Idea, how about vagrants? Can we just start tasering them?

Rustyw on November 18, 2006 at 4:19 PM

Rustyw, your massive amount of university education hasn’t served you so well, perhaps you should ask for a refund.

The taser shots weren’t punitive, they were motivational. Much less damage was done to the perp than would have been done had they attempted to drag/carry him out, and he surely wouldn’t have continued shouting had they employed the full force available to the taser. A taser so used is much better described as a tool than a weapon.

The campus police didn’t initiate the situation, but they are responsible to control it once on hand. They made ONE DEMAND, that he leave the library. His refusal requires a response. Agree or disagree about degree of response, he brought a response on himself.

Any comment that includes phrases such as “without ID” need to consider that this STUDENT most likely had valid ID. If that is true, his refusal to show it was a malicious move intended to create the scene. Again, he is responsible for his actions and their consequences.

If he is a current valid student at UCLA, then he is accountable for campus standards and regulations of behavior. His choice to violate those standards as a political protest against the Patriot Act are quite far-fetched. Let’s see if you have a clue…

Bottom line, is this provision of the patriot act needed to keep us safe from terror? (the controversial provision of the Patriot Act which provides for repeated tasing of any students who are slow to leave a university library.)

Seriously, when you snatched that sentence from Patterico‘s comments, did you not know he was being facetious, pulling the perp’s chain, as it were?

Patterico’s entire point is that the student is a complete idiot in trying to link the campus police response to the Patriot Act. Too subtle for you, I see. Maybe a couple more years in class then, and you’ll have all the nuance you need.

Freelancer on November 18, 2006 at 4:54 PM

Take your straw man and find somewhere else to play, Rusty. There’s no connection between tasering a guy who is resisting police and causing a scene and tasering vagrants.

Not that some bums shouldn’t be zapped — or at least taken off the streets — such as the one my wife saw completely naked in downtown Chicago. He was casually dressing at State & Randolph and was not arrested. Anyway, that’s off-topic.

insomni on November 18, 2006 at 5:03 PM

Wow insomni … your logic seems to have vaporized Rusty. Nice job.

darwin on November 18, 2006 at 6:16 PM

Maybe, darwin, but I think some folks in a neighboring thread took some wind out of his sails, too. He has all the marks of a typical lib-troll, and logic is their Kryptonite.

insomni on November 18, 2006 at 6:51 PM

Tantor:

Hmmm. I’ve stopped and thought about it for a moment. …

From the video, I was unable to discern what occurred when the kid received the initial tase/stun. Speculation, but perhaps it was required to stop some particular action, say, assaulting the officer or another student. However, I am referring to a point where I believe the kid had cuffs on. Somewhere in that sequence I heard (paraphrase), “get up or you will get tased again”. He was. That is where I question subsequent action.

As for saying that the cops had no right to touch the jerk …

I never said “the cops had no right to touch” the kid. However, the situation was handled poorly.

I guess the university has no right to exclude non-students from their facilities. …

You are forming ludicrous knee-jerk extrapolations. I will just blip over.

Why don’t you go tell it to the fifty-nine police officers who died saving people in the World Trade Center on Sep 11? I guess they never heard about the no duty clause.

What those officers performed was above and beyond the call. At risk to their own lives they attempted to save others. They are commended by any individual that still has a heart. They saw other humans in peril and acted.

If a citizen were being stalked by someone, does the state have a statutory obligation to protect that person from harm? No. If harm does come to that person, the state does have an obligation to investigate and determine if a law was broken. If so, they will follow up with the process …

Crime exists because citizens have bought into the false notion that someone else will protect them. That is, citizens let it happen.

I have watched many a lefty throw snowballs, potted plants, and pop cans at the police at “peace” marches here in DC without any repercussions whatsoever. …

I have observed similar situations in AZ with the Reconquista demonstrations and other related activity. Clearly in a couple instances, laws were broken, but for some unknown reason, there was no enforcement. Based on what I was able to gather, I believe it was a decision rooted in political correctness. I would gather more so in your area.

AZ_Redneck on November 18, 2006 at 7:20 PM

The kid got everything he deserved.

dougless on November 18, 2006 at 9:09 PM

The dumb bastard should have stood up.

Very entertaining.

JackM on November 18, 2006 at 10:26 PM

What were the police supposed to do, stand there and watch this dope sprawl around on the floor all day? It was either taze the clown, or do a Rodney on his butt.

I say the loudmouthed loser got off easy.

JackM on November 18, 2006 at 10:29 PM

Unnecessary use of force.

Nonfactor on November 19, 2006 at 12:49 AM

Who knew the Patriot Act could be so much fun?

JackM on November 19, 2006 at 7:49 AM

They didn’t taze his mouth shut? Reminds me of that Python skit “I’m being oppressed!”

Coronagold on November 19, 2006 at 10:54 AM

Unnecessary use of force.

Nah … more like an abuse of freedom on the jerks part.

darwin on November 19, 2006 at 11:06 AM

This has nothing to do with the Patriot Act. The perp’s mention, or, rather, his screaming “Here’s your Patriot Act” is nonsense, along the lines of Keith Olberman or Bill Maher’s fabricated statements designed to insight hatred and animosity toward their world view enemies.

This kid is a Prima Donna, a regular princess.

This diva can be seen in that video kicking away with his legs. The chump!

“Don’t Touch me!!!” he screamed. Come on, you girly man! Shut up, follow directions, and stop making a scene.

The enforcement personnel need more training. Maybe next time they won’t allow a chump like this to dictate the scenario and control the situation. Maybe next time the patrol personnel will act more decisively and take the chump away immediately, shut shutting off his opportunity to do his Broadway show.

This guy even got a standing ovation from observers who applaud him while demonizing the “officers.”

Instead of helping the officers by screaming at the guy “Shut up and do as your told, you trouble maker! Get up and leave, and stop with the vitriolic pabulum about the Patriot Act!”

I truly believe that these babies are well trained in the school of “How to get the spotlight on yourself, and how to make yourself to be a victim and martyr” school of ethics.

William

William2006 on November 19, 2006 at 4:59 PM