Illegal aliens are as great an enemy to me as is Al Qaida.
Oddly enough, the difficulty we have in fighting both wars have the same root cause; massive liberal brainwashing for the past 50 years, leaving us without the rational bigotry necessary to win such wars.

I used to think it would be past my lifetime before we joined Rome in oblivion, now I doubt we’ll last even those few decades…

I also believe that Democrats picked up on Repubicans who were leaning left and leapfrogged them to the right.

Maybe after Those Republicans left standing get done washing the mud off of their faces they’ll realize the Demos out right winged them and become not just Repubicans but Conservatives again.

As per your admonition yesterday, I suggest that comments be limited to 250 words. 1000 word tomes are fine for a chat room.

Sorry folks!

I had the same thing take place at my local polling place 2 weeks ago. An informational sheet was being handed out to those standing in line outlining the 2 ballot initiatives being voted on in order to speed up the voting. The poll workers said people were spending too much time inside the voting booth reading these ballot measures (for the first time). The only problem… the material was printed in Spanish! The one copy written in English was wrinkled and worn because we were handing it back to the guy behind us over and over again…

In the US, for official purposes like voting, English only is a good law. But please keep in mind that not everyone in the US that isn’t an English speaker is there permanently. Accomodating them with some language options takes nothing from US citizens.

MayBee on November 17, 2006 at 9:07 PM

MayBee: you make complete and utter sense. But this isn’t about making sense, it’s about demagoguery. I have pointed out–largely to no avail–on this site before that in the early 1900’s the proportion of foreign to native born was higher than it is now (and yes that’s counting the illegals). Oddly enough you don’t have large pockets of German speakers or Italian speakers or Polish speakers. Alas, this matters not to the “English only” crowd. It’s not about logic, it’s about making a point.

And for Hayworth, where do you get the idea that he is pushing for mass deportations? I’ve done some searches and can’t find anything. If you can give me a reference, I’ll concede that he is more “radical” on immigration than Mitchell.

Grebrook responds with:

I don’t know, where do you get the idea that Dems, McCain and bush are pushing for amnesty?

Grebrook, are you actually admitting that you don’t know where you got the idea that Hayworth is pushing for mass deportations? That you have no basis for this claim of which you are aware? And yet you continue to spout it? Or are you just dodging yet another uncomfortable question?

If you believe the crap you’re spewing, why can’t you back it up? I think it’s because you don’t believe it, but you want to. You know you’re lying, but you’re going to feign righteousness anyway.

However, Constantine is an interesting blogger. He, at least, provides substantial points backed up with good arguments. — thedecider

…and has a sense of humor. That is always a recommendation.

You can debate a person…it’s hard debating a brick wall.

Guys, the Grebrook-baiting is getting tiresome. Either respond to him on the merits or ignore him.

Allahpundit on November 17, 2006 at 7:08 PM

I’ve tried debating him on the merits – he just changes the point of his argument as if the original point wasn’t really there. Now, I vote to ignore him. Grebrook is dead to me.

In the US, for official purposes like voting, English only is a good law. But please keep in mind that not everyone in the US that isn’t an English speaker is there permanently. Accomodating them with some language options takes nothing from US citizens.

…we’ve been through all of this before, folks, and we don’t appear to have learned a thing.

The problem at present isn’t that folks aren’t being made to speak English, it’s that the English speakers are shouting at eachother and neither are listening. The problem is then hitting the plates of these new immigrants — and the ones *I* really feel sorry for are the *LEGAL* immigrants and folks from Spanish-speaking US possessions. These folksa are being made the *PROBLEM*, and the solution seems to be to bat them back and forth like badminton birdies or hot potatoes, but not to present any solutions.

Let me be frank: we, the citizens of this country *MUST* take this one by the horns. We’re seeing communties popping up from Maine to Texas — and not small communities by any means — of people whose status is being used as a vote-getter and a score-settler, and to that extent they have my sympathies. That said, they need to be ready to compromise…’cause the English-speaking natives and legal and illegal activists don’t seem to have that word in their vocabularies.

The watchword of the day seems to be “hyperbole”. Expect tomorrow’s watchword to be “brinksmanship”.

I think that the success of English-only ordinances with the corresponding constriction accompanying tough immigration stands demonstrates that *FIRST* citizens expect these new folks to at least *MAKE AN EFFORT*.

The American people are hot-headed, but they’re also slow to act when it comes to making rules for folks who live cheek-to-jowl with them. If you doubt the inherent fairness of the American people, consider that we’re even *HAVING* this debate (such as it is, over all of the name-calling). In many other countries, the state police would round ‘em up as soon as they presented problem-one to state.

They’re not dumb, and many would be glad to assimilate, if it was made clear that this is expected of them. As far as Mexicans are concerned, this really isn’t a big problem culturally…much less so than with Chinese illegals, for instance.

The problem is that there’s this brinksmanship-thaaaang going on, with anyone interpreting the call for compromise as a call for surrender. It’s all about juice, fully as much as such a deal would be among street gangs.

If we wish this to be a nation of street gangs, let’s thrown down. If not, if we want a more controlled and equitable solution to present itself, we need to knock off all of the horse-hockey and *LISTEN* as well as speak.

…lately, listening’s been in short supply even in as small a forum as this one. We need to tune out the shrill, one-note voices and get down to brass tacks.

Yeah we all do, but we pretend we don’t notice

That’s right RightWinged, that subject is neither here nor there. All matters are the marching orders our commander issues.

Deport them all: 16%
Allow to stay: 66%
Remain only for a limited time: 17%
Face it, you’re just not winning this debate.

Grebrook on November 17, 2006 at 7:42 PM

That is such a rediculous strawman that millions of people need to all be deported. It is about enforcing real rules that stop a demographic trend of poverty stricken people breaking the law to come across the border and damage our economy and society. Sending millions of people back over the border doesnt even enter into it. You could “deport them all” today and half would be back in a month this is a totally meaningless question. Find a poll that says most support “amnesty”? You cant. they are just houseguests we “allow them to stay”

Anyone ever notice Michele is, like, kinda cute?

JammieWearingFool on November 17, 2006 at 6:55 PM

Yeah we all do, but we pretend we don’t notice so that we can give her the respect she deserves, particularly in her own home away from home.

Assimilation: At a city meeting last week, there was more talk about printing all these documents , again, for spanish speaking parents. Parents of elementary , middle school and high school students were all going to receive spanish printed letters, notices, report cards and a few other docs again this year. Apparently its been this way now for a few years and will continue for quite a while. Asked how much cheaper it might be to teach these parents to SPEAK ENGLISH, it became obvious it would be substantially cheaper. Plus the ongoing benefit to entire families if the parent(s) did speak english is the best possible scenario for the community.
Cheaper, kinder, etc….except the parents just aren’t WILLING. We made it too easy for them, like Michelle said, press 1 for english. This needs to stop for monetary reasons if nothing else.

And for Hayworth, where do you get the idea that he is pushing for mass deportations?

I don’t know, where do you get the idea that Dems, McCain and bush are pushing for amnesty?

Ok, right, because you’ve done this little thing called reading between the lines.

There were 4 immigration-related ballot initiatives that passed by a wide margin in AZ. English-only was just one. I’ll leave it to you to go hunt them down, I’m not going to do your homework for you.

And for Hayworth, where do you get the idea that he is pushing for mass deportations? I’ve done some searches and can’t find anything. If you can give me a reference, I’ll concede that he is more “radical” on immigration than Mitchell. But if you think Mitchell positioned himself as less tough on immigration, and that’s what got him elected, well, I’m done debating this with you–you’re living in a fantasy land. Just go read his website and educate yourself.

You must make yourself dizzy spinning that into a referendum in favor of an amnesty type position and rejection of “enforcement”.

http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

“Which comes closest to your view about what government policy should be toward illegal immigrants currently residing in the United States? Should the government deport all illegal immigrants back to their home country, allow illegal immigrants to remain in the United States in order to work but only for a limited amount of time, or allow illegal immigrants to remain in the United States and become U.S. citizens but only if they meet certain requirements over a period of time?”

Deport them all: 16%
Allow to stay: 66%
Remain only for a limited time: 17%

Face it, you’re just not winning this debate.

MUST DIGG, Must digg

You must make yourself dizzy spinning that into a referendum in favor of an amnesty type position and rejection of “enforcement”. I dont know how the MSM does it with a straight face.

Maybe you need to clarify what you think is “comprehensive immigration reform.” Because you aren’t making any sense to me.

Every poll taken out on the issue of comprehensive immigration reform versus mass deportion, which is what Hayworth’s “enforcement only” approach essentially, shows deportation losing in a massive landslide. The fact is that the public support allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens if they pay fines, learn English, undergo background checks, etc…

You claim that he was a “hothead” on immigration and it caused him to lose, yet immigration reform passed.

What immigration reform. You mean the ballot measure making English the official language of Arizona? That’s what you call a victory? How does that relate to deporting illegal immigrants?

No, he’s not a new candidate, but comprehensive immigration reform is a new concept. And it won out and Hayworth lost.

OK, genius, here’s a clue. This is from Harry Mitchell’s own website. Which one comes across as more “radical” on immigration? Someone who claims to oppose amnesty, or someone who is accused of supporting it?

Maybe you need to clarify what you think is “comprehensive immigration reform.” Because you aren’t making any sense to me.