Video: When is police brutality not police brutality?
posted at 11:52 am on November 13, 2006 by Allahpundit
When Glenn Greenwald says so, and not a moment before.
While we wait for the word from on high, his bete noire makes the case. He’s asking people to watch the video before they read his post, so hop to it. Nineteen seconds, then click the link.
Place your bets in the comments as to which lefty blogger will be the first to accuse him of a prosecutorial conflict of interest in commenting on this. All my chips on Rick Ellensburg.
Blowback
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Nope. I saw this on O’reilly Friday night. The guy is fighting against them; they are struggling to put the cuffs on.
zerodamage on November 13, 2006 at 11:59 AM
If the guy was going for the officer’s gun, he should have the crap beat out of him.
EF on November 13, 2006 at 12:01 PM
Two things. First, if you can say, “I can’t breathe,” then you ARE breathing. Second, from what I saw, the guy does seem to have wandering hands, which corroborates the policeman’s story that he was reaching for his gun. If it is concluded that he was trying to reach the officer’s weapon, then the cops should be praised for showing RESTRAINT, in that they did not use deadly force to protect themselves.
BohicaTwentyTwo on November 13, 2006 at 12:01 PM
I’ve seen worse at the grocery store.
Limerick on November 13, 2006 at 12:04 PM
If the LA Times were smart, they would pay Patterico a LOT of money to screen every article they run.
DaveS on November 13, 2006 at 12:06 PM
I don’t know. I think Patterico’s legal analysis of when force is justifiable is quite good, but most people are just going to watch the video and see a cop punching a guy.
A shallow read of the situation? Sure. But the tv news camera is an eye without a brain.
Slublog on November 13, 2006 at 12:07 PM
Yeah, it’s so easy to judge the work of police officers sitting behind a computer watching a video on YouTube, especially when the video doesn’t show the full incident. BTW, what is their (the LA Times) excuse for getting the number of punches wrong?
The guy had taken several swings at the officers, was resisting arrest, and may have even intended to reach for the gun of one of the officers. Given that the officers don’t have time to ascertain the suspect’s intentions, they did the only reasonable thing they could do.
He deserved a lot worse if you asked me.
thirteen28 on November 13, 2006 at 12:09 PM
No stun gun? No mace? I believe officers are or should be trained to subdue without hitting with a closed fist. It seems the suspect started to resist (or defend himself) after he was hit in the face.
infidel on November 13, 2006 at 12:09 PM
I’d have to see the whole video really. Those 19 seconds make the cop look to be the bad guy. But what happened 10 seconds beforehand? 20 seconds? a minute? I could cut any piece of tape to 20 seconds long and make it appear that a totally different situation happened.
lorien1973 on November 13, 2006 at 12:10 PM
The 19 second video doesn’t show what led up to that particular moment. Let’s see the rest.
Personally, I think that Cops should be able to use tasers, batons, mace, chokeholds, or the damn Klingon death grip on resisting suspects.
They should have maced the bastard and then set the dogs on him until he clawed his way into the backseat of the patrol car.
BacaDog on November 13, 2006 at 12:21 PM
You all said it best. I really don’t have much to add that hasn’t been covered (probably is something; I just can’t see it and I’ve had a day to come to conclusions).
It doesn’t look great, but when would a police officer using force to restrain someone look great? He could have wacked the hell out of the guy with intent to seriously injure, but he didn’t. Although I’m sure the punches didn’t feel too great either.
I think the cop was doing his job. I’ll even grant that he may have done it imperfectly (although I don’t understand how; if a strong man was reaching for his gun and struggling against him, how is it wrong to whack him a few times in the face? works for me), but I will grant him some slack under the circumstances.
The use of blows stopped, by all accounts, once the suspect was cuffed. I seriously hope the LAPD does not throw him overboard based on that one 19-second segment. If they do, then they better have more than that.
Christoph on November 13, 2006 at 12:21 PM
That guy’s lucky he’s in Hollywood. Here in Florida, he would’ve been hit with the stun gun, no ifs ands or buts. His repeated efforts to go for the officer’s gun might even satisfy the “life in danger” burden of F.S. 766 (The Shoot-First Law).
Kid from Brooklyn on November 13, 2006 at 12:25 PM
Is it over the line? Um yeah obviously. But this will turn into a fingerpointing circus.
Being a cop sucks. It feels good to put on a uniform, my camis always made me fel rpoud and patriotic, but for cops that is wher it stops. seeing humanity at its worst wears on you. High rates of suicide and divorce among cops is a natural outcome of such a high stress job.
Solutions:
1) Mandatory time off. Not just sitting at home and waiting to go back to work but real vacations.
2) Better training in hand to hand combat. Making incidents like these totally unneccesary
3) Mandatory counseling and moving from high stress areas to low stress areas periodically.
4) More police officers.
All of which is going to ballon the LAPD budget, but I’m betting entitlements going to illegal aliens could cover it.
Theworldisnotenough on November 13, 2006 at 12:26 PM
An update from Patterico’s post
We’ve seen stuff like this before, but it’s never okay.
I agree with one of the commenters at Patterico’s site… When asked how many punches after my first viewing, I said 2 or 3. Also, check out the weird style punch. I saw a guy on Fox the other day describe this as a specific technique. Of course the left and media give the benefit of the doubt to the bad guy, and smear him to as wide an audience as possible.
RightWinged on November 13, 2006 at 12:32 PM
Sorry, I’m a little out of it.. that should be “smear the POLICE….” not “smear him”….
RightWinged on November 13, 2006 at 12:33 PM
Oh, please! The guy was resisting and going for the officer’s gun. It may be unsettling to the public, but when Mr. Ten Percenter files his multimillion dollar law suit, the city will call use of force experts who will testify that punching in the head/face is a legitimate tactic and was necessary in this situation. You can’t pepper spray/taser a suspect before he resists. While the officer began to put the handcuffs on him, he began struggling and grabbing for the officer’s gun and he needed to be subdued quickly.
EF on November 13, 2006 at 12:34 PM
Right up to the time some liberal judge ruled that taking away their “entitlements” and redirecting that money to the police budget was unconstitutional.
But I digress …
thirteen28 on November 13, 2006 at 12:35 PM
You’d have a case for police brutality if the guy was already cuffed before the officer “cuffed” him. To me the relative calm at the beginning of the video looks like everybody catching their collective breaths. Who knows how long they’d been struggling before this footage was taken. I’m sure the officer would’ve used something else than his fists if possible. Being that close, all three guys could’ve ended up pepper sprayed and the cops being shot by the other gangbangers. You only get one shot with a stun gun. We don’t know if they’d already tried it.
It’s a tough job. They’re working with desparate criminals every day. It’s bound to get ugly sometimes. Let’s cut them some slack.
jdpaz on November 13, 2006 at 12:35 PM
The police have procedures when arresting a suspect. You and I are in no position to analyse and judge from a clippete like this, since we didn’t see everything that led up to it.
The man is refusing to submit, this is apparent. Until a suspected perp is completely subdued and frisked for weapons/hazards, the police MUST presume that they are in danger. Until they can believe that they and innocent civilians in the area are under no threat, they will continue to escalate the discomfort to the suspect.
Put yourself in the position of the peace officer in such a situation. Once a person begins to resist, you CANNOT allow their hands free, especially if you haven’t ensured that they aren’t carrying a weapon. The police would normally prefer that this man were face down, which he obviously resisted. He’s fairly large compared to either of the cops, so they cannot afford to give him any maneuvering space.
He’s repeated able to say “I can’t breathe”, which proves that he can, and is just angling for some room to try and move.
I have zippo sympathy for the guy. When police have decided you need to submit, you SUBMIT. I was recently a juror in a resisting arrest trial, and it was much less violent or confrontational than this, but the suspect got 6 months, which was attached consecutive to the 5 year sentence for the original crime he was suspected of.
Freelancer on November 13, 2006 at 12:35 PM
Note
the wife of this bastard who got beaten said the conflict lasted between 5-10minutes
This guy resisted for no less then five, probably closer to ten minutes
What’s on youtube? under 30seconds
30 Seconds in a 5-10minute fight is enough to be declared guilty in hte media (LA TIMES; LAPD Brutality, Same ol’ same ol’)
Pathetic!
Defector01 on November 13, 2006 at 12:36 PM
I agree with the #7 from Patterico:
The guyis not fighting them at the beginning of the tape. One cop is on the radio, easily controlling the guy with one hand. The other cop switches hands to start hitting the perp.
At the very end, watch the perps hand accidentally brush the waist, the punching cop then grabs at his gun. I wonder what happened after that.
They could have EASILY cuffed the second wrist before the beating, easily. Both arms were within inches of eachother while cop A was on the radio.
Uncalled for beating, no matter what happened prior. Thats their frakkin JOB!!!
shooter on November 13, 2006 at 12:38 PM
Shooter: You must be viewing a different tape then the rest of us. I see the suspect with his right hand on the officer’s gun belt. That’s when the officer punched him. And no, it’s not their “frakkin JOB!!!” to be hurt, disarmed, shot and killed.
EF on November 13, 2006 at 12:53 PM
Look, when a cop gives you an order under jurisdiction, do it. People who refuse to follow instructions get slammed. It is that simple. You cannot handle murderers, rapists, and God knows who else, with kid gloves to protect some misguided sense of liberal sunshine and flower dancing! Good grief.
Yes, those who would judge the cops by a 30 second clip need to re-think their position.
Cary on November 13, 2006 at 12:53 PM
Again
10 minute struggle
the tape arises when the guy is finally subdued
after the officers have had a hell of a time trying to keep the bastard down and have no intention of giving him ANY leaway because he was a pain in the ass to bring down. So that’s the brutality, not the struggle of the damn suspect resisting arrest
this is liberal cop hating at its best
Defector01 on November 13, 2006 at 12:55 PM
Sorry, one more thing. It’s not your place or mine to judge the cops. It is your place to do what you are “frakkin” told!
Don’t like it? Then lump it, and take it up in court.
Cary on November 13, 2006 at 12:56 PM
Although uncomfortable to watch, the perp reached for the belt and the cop acted quickly with what weapon he had (his hands).
It looks riteous to me.
natesnake on November 13, 2006 at 12:58 PM
shooter
how many cops should it take to put on cuffs? he is resiting arrest if not he would of put his hands together and let one officer put the cuffs on him and this video would have never been made.
like someone said this is 30 seconds of what was 5 to 10 min. and you are judging thier actions without knowing the whole story, just like with this post i could judge you as being a liberal.
rocked on November 13, 2006 at 12:59 PM
The moral: Do not fight with cops. If you do, you can expect to get your ass kicked.
The Germans are really good at this. But then, their cops are more disciplined than ours, I think. No one messes with the Polezei, because the outcome is known. They will crack your head open if you get froggy with them. If you go along peacefully, you’ll be just fine. It’s quite simple, as it should be.
As for this guy, I don’t see anything to indicate that the cop was trying to beat the guy as opposed to restraining and controlling him. If the cop wanted to cave his face in, he certainly could have, and the suspect was resisting and continuing to grab at the cop.
Oh, and I’d rather get punched in the face than maced.
Pablo on November 13, 2006 at 1:01 PM
shooter and #7 are way off base.
The “calm” at the beginning is just artful editing.
The officer couldn’t have punched the perp anywhere but on the top of his head so he switched to his right. Not effective, only hurts the cop’s knuckles.
THere’s no such thing as an “accidental brush” around an officer’s weapon. The cop feels the “accidental brush” and checks to make sure he’s not been disarmed.
I’m sure the objective of the face punching is to effect a bloody nose. Get the guy tasting his own blood to take some of the fight out of him.
jdpaz on November 13, 2006 at 1:01 PM
I don’t know about you – BUT – growing up I intuitively understood the idea that if a Cop tries to handcuff you – surrender! I was born in 1954 and went through the normal stages that at times had me face to face with the law- mischevious adolescent, long hair – motorcycles – etc.
Papers like the LA Times think that sensationalizing stories like this is more important than solving the crime and gun problems in their city. I find it quite interesting that liberal thinking like this has doomed the citizens in most inner cities. They live in a war zone – shootings have become acceptable, hearing helicopters buzzing all hours of the night is commonplace and gang killings and drugs is a subculture that papers like the LA Times and Hollywood finds romantic. It is a disgrace for children to grow up in these conditions. Sending the message to children that it is OK to resist a Police Officer is appalling. And of course when the word is out that you can sue for millions and win – it becomes a profitable endevour.
In 2004 there were 518 murders in LA – the rate per/population is almost 3 times the national average. There were almost 30,000 aggravated assaults – more than twice the national average.
Let the LA Times reap what they sow.
iam7545 on November 13, 2006 at 1:02 PM
Gross amount of typos in my previous post, ugh.
And the Rodney King strategy begins. Don’t get me wrong the guy deserves nothing. The emphasis should be on why two police officers cannot subdue a guy that does not have drug induced superhuman strength. Better training, hello.
Theworldisnotenough on November 13, 2006 at 1:03 PM
I’ve watched the video several times. Some points to consider:
1) The suspect’s right arm is cuffed, but the suspect is face up on his back. One can reasoably derive that prior to the footage shown, the first cuff was successfully attached to the right wrist.
2) The video catches a physical confrontation in progress. The handcuff was attached either during the confrontation or the confrontation erupted after the first cuff was applied.
3) The officers are in an awkward position. Ideally for them, the suspect would be face down, cooperative to being cuffed, both cuffs would be attached, and the suspect transferred to cruiser and ultimately through the legal system.
Under the law, the individual on the ground is a suspect, not a convicted criminal (for this incident). The suspect retains rights.
The Police will always be held to a higher standard of conduct than those that they apprehend, it’s the nature of our system and most LE’s I know are well aware of that.
It would be next to physically impossible for the suspect to remove the officer’s gun out of a quality duty holster. It’s difficult enough for the officer standing upright at the line to remove his duty weapon. I officiate shooting competitions where officer’s routinely utilize their duty gear. Some of them refer to these holsters as “cop-killer” holsers because of the difficulty of removing them. The suggestion that the suspect was “going for the gun” while plausible from suspect intent, is hardly probable from an Officer’s perspective that the suspect would have any chance of succeeding.
Closed fist striking to the face is a less than ideal suspect restraining technique.
It’s apparent that the suspect is a large male, and despite the officer’s best efforts, has succeeded in preventing the attachment of the 2nd handcuff behind his back.
I beg to differ with this assertion. Police Officers are not immune to corruption within their ranks. It is plausible that there would be circumstances within which a law abiding citizen would be justified in resisting an unlawful arrest. It’s also becoming a disturbing trend that individuals impersonating LE’s are using the “do what you’re told” programming that has been inflicted on our society to criminially assault individuals, particularly women.
Bottom line, the video evidence is not conclusive. Whether LAPD has a reputation or not is irrelevant to this circumstance. The size, ethnicity, immigration status, or criminal history of the suspect is irrellevant. What is relevant is that way too many are willing to draw “video-bite” conclusions when there is not sufficient evidence to do so based on their political/emotional/affinity bias.
Those who have posted above that got it right…those who are unwilling to draw a conclusion based on 19 seconds of YouTube video posted by an organization committed to “exposing” incidents of Police brutality.
Y’all have brains…don’t be afraid to use them, and don’t be afraid to abstain from expressing an opinion based on ignorance.
CZ52′
CZ52GUY on November 13, 2006 at 1:12 PM
Before William J. Bratton, the current Chief of the LAPD, any activist or gang member could have complained, almost having followed a “101 Against the LAPD”, and the officer or detective was removed from the task/job.
Now, Mr. Bratton put new P&Ps in place and the nonsense has diminished – not gone away totally, just lessened.
Concretely, in the past, interrogators were reassigned, if gang members complained they were too tough with their questions. Of course, most always, racism entered the picture.
Entelechy on November 13, 2006 at 1:13 PM
And he will lose. If you haven’t noticed, the officers did subdue him and as quickly as possible using department approved techniques. And LAPD is one of the best trained departments in this country.
For those who might not know, this gangbanger has been identified as a high ender of the Ten Percent club, i.e., they have identified the 10% who commit the majority of the crimes in Hollywood. I’m estatic that he has a date with the gray bar hotel. It’ll make neighborhoods, businesses, and homes, safer.
EF on November 13, 2006 at 1:14 PM
Guys, watch the punching officer’s arm closely right from the time the clip starts. You will see that he is putting most of his weight, not on the guy’s neck, but on restraining his arm. Yet the arm is not on the ground, in spite of the officer’s weight. After the officer punches him 3 times he uses both arms to control the suspect’s left arm and he still can’t ground the suspect’s hand.
This means two things:
a. the suspect is very strong,
b. the suspect is using all his strength to resist.
Aylios on November 13, 2006 at 1:15 PM
Of course the size and criminal history of a suspect is relevant. You think they use the same techniques on a 90 lb woman they use on a 180 lb young male? On a fta on a traffic warrant as a warrant for a homicide?
EF on November 13, 2006 at 1:18 PM
Cmon guys, watch the first few seconds of this vid. The cop on the left has enough control to hold him down and GRAB HIS RADIO TO RADIO IN THAT THEY HAVE HIM. Then the second cop starts to punch and they lose control. If the left cop had put the cuffs on the guys SECOND wrist (was one already on the first wrist)FIRST, when his arms were inches away from eachother, it would have ended. But he took his radio, and cop 2, who has his knee in the perps throat, started hitting him.
I’m saying, just like our cop friend here, ” Is it over the line? Um yeah obviously.”
The cops were jazzed up, wired and ready, but with out the entire 10 minute vid, I can NOT give anyone permision to beat ANYONE half handcuffed, held down acroos his neck and body by two cops. And YES, it is their job to SERVE AND TO PROTECT.
Not to beat at will. We know it happens…IS this one case, or not.
shooter on November 13, 2006 at 1:20 PM
We now have over 300,000,000 people in the USA. Prisons are overcrowded, and unless everyone is on isolation, they rule the roost.
Let’s bring about Judge Dread. Watch things get really nice and peaceful.
(and those weren’t hard punches at all, either.)
Mazztek on November 13, 2006 at 1:20 PM
If the suspect died from getting hit in the face with a fist does that make it justified?
infidel on November 13, 2006 at 1:25 PM
Now, if the guys an Illegal, I have a whole different solution.
A BIG FRAKKIN FENCE!
shooter on November 13, 2006 at 1:28 PM
To all the guys here who still thing the poor suspect is being brutalised, head over to the Patterico thread and read the opinions of the people there as some of them actually know what they’re talking about.
Aylios on November 13, 2006 at 1:47 PM
With plenty of BIG FRAKKIN’ COPS to guard it.
Cary on November 13, 2006 at 1:49 PM
the guy who was caught, for those who don’t know, is a member of one of LA’s most notorious gangs (the Monroe St. Gang if i recall correctly), he’s 6’3 190lbs and he’s ranked by LAPD as being a 10% which means he’s is one of the most violent gangsters out there and he had another warrant out for….resisting arrest.
Defector01 on November 13, 2006 at 1:50 PM
Being a cop over in Germany we aren’t authorized to carry mace or pepper spray. I sometimes have to resort to using the fist or my baton since the Germans have this thing against gassing people in any capacity.
I don’t know where they got that idea.
Black Adam on November 13, 2006 at 2:18 PM
For the record, that was a joke and I’m a military cop for the Air Force.
Black Adam on November 13, 2006 at 2:19 PM
To EF at 12:34
Even if appropriate force ends up being shown, LA is a great place for jackpot lawsuits. They just paid out $2.7 million to a black firefighter claiming racial harrassment when his fellow firefighters put a couple of pieces of dog food in his spaghetti after a volleyball game where the (6’5″) guy kept yelling “Feed it to the Big Dog! Feed it to the Big Dog!…” A prank among co-workers? Nope. Racial bias trying to create a hostile environment to drive black firefighters out of their jobs.
I don’t even need to go into what the drill will be here.
eeyore on November 13, 2006 at 2:19 PM
Guys, watch the punching officer’s arm closely right from the time the clip starts. You will see that he is putting most of his weight, not on the guy’s neck, but on restraining his arm. Yet the arm is not on the ground, in spite of the officer’s weight. After the officer punches him 3 times he uses both arms to control the suspect’s left arm and he still can’t ground the suspect’s hand.
This means two things:
a. the suspect is very strong,
b. the suspect is using all his strength to resist.
Aylios on November 13, 2006 at 1:15 PM
Soothsayer on November 13, 2006 at 2:51 PM
As many others have said, if you can say “I can’t breathe”, then you CAN BREATHE.
It’s very, very, very simple.
And if you have children or any loved ones, look for blue faces to see if someone’s choking, instead of waiting for them to tell you something they’d never be able to truthfully voice.
Esthier on November 13, 2006 at 2:56 PM
You folks must be watching a different video than I am. Pause the video and watch it slowly.
1. At the VERY BEGINNING of this clip the suspect’s right hand is already in 1/2 of a set of handcuffs that are controlled by the officer astride his abdomen.
2. The police officer (astride the suspect’s abdomen) is gripping the other half of the handcuffs and has his own hand between the suspect’s hand and the second officer’s firearm.
3. The suspect’s hand NEVER comes close to the second officer’s firearm UNTIL AFTER he has been struck in the face.
I realize that this is only a small clip of the actual event. However, as a former cop (and a court recognized Use of Force expert) I am appalled at the second officer’s actions.
Regardless of what happend in the 5 to 10 minutes prior to what appears in this clip, the second officer has moral and (more importantly in this case) a legal obligation to properly deescalate his use of force. All cops are trained in the Use of Force Continuum and when they’re allowed to escalate and when they must, I say again, MUST, deescalate
Let me put that in plain English. It DOES NOT matter what the suspect did even 30 seconds earlier. When the suspect stops, so most the cop. From what I saw the suspect did not attempt to grab the sidearm and that hand was already in a handcuff that was being controlled by the other officer. That cop had ZERO REASONS to strike the suspect like that.
Was he still struggling? Yes, he was, but at that point the cops should have used pain compliance techniques (like a wrist lock) and not multiple strikes to the suspect’s face.
At the very least that cop deserves a 2 week suspension, without pay. Just my opinion. And for the record! I’m not some lef twing-nut-job-anti cop-liberal. I am a fairly conservative former soldier and cop.
Also, so people know:
1. Choke holds are generally forbidden by most departments. Except in cases of life and death. A knee to the neck/throat is not a choke hold.
2. If the suspect can shout out (several times), ‘I can’t breathe,’ then he’s lying. You can’t talk without breathing.
3. Use of Force strikes to the face are usually not very effective. Except for a very quick strike to the nose in order to break it, and bring a fighting suspect quickly to his knees. Usually used by a cop that is much smaller than the suspect in a toe-to-toe fight.
4. Pain Compliance techniques are usually much more effective than actually striking the suspect.
5. The cop in the video hits like a girl. No offense to any girls intended.
~V5
V5 on November 13, 2006 at 3:11 PM
eeyore: I have several atty friends who work in the police-litigation unit of the LA City Atty. I do not know all the facts with the case involving LAFD. My gut reaction is that there was a lot more going on than reported by the press. Like the McDonald scalding case, there is often selective report of the facts of the case when one side is claiming “juries gone wild!”
EF on November 13, 2006 at 3:14 PM
Is he on the radio saying, “we have him, no worries”, or is he trying to let the dispatcher know precisely where they are and that they might need help (we have him, but he’s causing trouble)? I couldn’t hear what he said, if he had time to actually say anything. Could you?
taznar on November 13, 2006 at 3:17 PM
Black Adam,
Ramstein, by chance?
Pablo on November 13, 2006 at 3:25 PM
At the very least.
SouthernGent on November 13, 2006 at 4:49 PM
Was the guy they clobbered a liberal?
That would be funny.
JackM on November 13, 2006 at 4:57 PM
They didn’t beat him bad enough. When an officer tells you to do something, do it. Plain and simple. Then you don’t get hurt. The guy had an outstanding warrant, was a repeat offender, resisted arrest, then went for one of the officer’s guns. On top of all that, the gangster’s friends were in the area also. There’s criminals every bit as bad as these jihadist nutcases in LA. The cops have a tough job, they’re underpaid, and the libs and media don’t support them. Chances are, the neighborhood criminals saw what happened to that guy and will be a little bit more compliant next time.
PRCalDude on November 13, 2006 at 5:18 PM
The problem with this video is that we see what happened from a neutral point of view. As they say, hind sight is always 20/20.
From what I have seen on the video there seemed to be no provocation for the punches. What we don’t know is what was going through the officer’s mind. The suspect had obviously been struggling and, even with two officers on him, refused to comply.
I am going to have to disagree with you on that. If the suspect had already gone for the officers gun once before it would naturally leave him jumpy about the guy going for it again.
I can say one thing for certain: If you are/want to be a cop, stay the hell away from the 9th circut in general and LA in particular. There is no easier place to get screwed over.
SnakeintheGrass on November 13, 2006 at 5:18 PM
Oh, and as for stun guns and pepper spray…
1. Stun guns work until they stop sending out juice. They have no lingering effects, meaning someone who was just hit with one can immideately jump up and continue to fight. The ones that give up are the ones afraid of being hit again.
2. Pepper spray is all but worthless. It is just as likely to be a detriment to the officer and dosent do much to hinder your ability to fight. I know from experience. Nothing takes away your repect for pepper spray like being hit with it then running an obstacle course.
SnakeintheGrass on November 13, 2006 at 5:24 PM
Snake,
I can say one thing for certain: If you are/want to be a cop, stay the hell away from the 9th circut in general and LA in particular. There is no easier place to get screwed over.
That’s the problem. The officers get no support, so they pull back from doing their jobs as effectively. Then we’re at the mercy of criminals. Libs frown on self defense as well.
PRCalDude on November 13, 2006 at 5:31 PM
AMEN!!
I’ll tell you something else I hate about pepper spray. NEVER NEVER NEVER spray a suspect, wrestle the suspect to the ground, handcuff and (finally) arrest the suspect, and then after transporting to (and processing at) the county jail take a leak. BECAUSE I CAN TELL YOU FOR SURE you never got all the pepper spray off your fingers before grabbing your unit to take said leak. And that burns like PURE FIRE! LOL True story.
~V5
V5 on November 13, 2006 at 7:13 PM
Look at that officer’s arm.
Look at the biceps.
Those were controlled love taps to the perp’s forehead in an effort to take the piss and vinegar out of him.
If a man that size really wanted to inflict brutality, the perp’s face would be unrecognizable and probably in a cast today with jaw pins and a frame.
As to the fact that one cuff is on, I’ve been in that situation, there are people who will suddenly try anything necessary to escape being arrested and they can go into that fight or flight adrenaline thing at any time during the apprehension.
Monday morning quarterbacking these situations is the sport of fools and is pretty much useless stuff.
I’d personally like to see the reactions and level of violence of those who cry brutality if THEY were in that situation, now that would be the entertainment of the century.
.
The Machine on November 13, 2006 at 8:50 PM
Pablo,
No. Spangdahlem. 90 Mins away.
Black Adam on November 14, 2006 at 12:42 AM
I always like reading comments about cases like this. People who quite possibly have never been in a fight come out with comments like Shooter’s, “If the left cop had put the cuffs on the guys SECOND wrist (was one already on the first wrist)FIRST, when his arms were inches away from eachother, it would have ended.” Right. A 10%er with his hands cuffed IN FRONT OF HIM is just going to dociley say, “Ok, you got the cuffs on, I quit.” It ain’t happening. Besides, hands cuffed in front are almost as dangerous as hands not cuffed at all. Also, just becuase there are 2 cops on him does NOT mean he’s not fighting; he surely was. You put 2 guys on me in the same position and I can assure you if they don’t subdue me pretty damned fast I’m going to inflict some major harm on them. One of the things I’m going to do is rip one of their guns off….and I do not mean the one in the holster. Think about what else is at belt level. It only takes something like 6.5lbs to rip off testicles, even through slacks. From the video this man was resisting the entire time; his body was tense, muscles bulging, he was trying to lift himself off the ground while grabbing at the officers. The punches the Officer administered were short jabs to the face, not haymakers. My take is they used justifiable force.
Btw, for those complaining they shouldn’t have hit him becuase he hadn’t actualy pulled the gun out of the holster… once you touch that cops gun the situation has escalated into a lethal force incident. At least in Virginia, and I’m sure in many other states as well. Going for a cop’s gun is a statement of intent that you intend to kill the officer.
wolfva on November 14, 2006 at 2:08 AM
Wolfva,
I agree with what you say about fighting suspects (especially 10%-ers) and going for a cops sidearm. But from what’s shown he doesn’t even come close to touching the sidearm until after he’s punched.
If you pause the video and study the footage the other cop’s hand is controlling the suspect’s right wrist and stays between the suspect’s hand and the first cop’s sidearm.
There may have been other factors that aren’t shown on the clip, but we’re asked to go with what we see. And as a cop and a Use of Force expert there is no reason for the punches.
Also, in my opinion, the love taps he gave the suspect were a total waste of time. All they did was make the suspect react more, possibly putting the two of them in greater danger.
I know, I know, we’re all armchair-quarterbacking this and we weren’t there. But I do honestly believe that the cop who punched the suspect was wrong… for more than just Use of Force reasons. His energy would have been better spent if he had used both of his hands on one of the suspect’s arms and the second cop taking the suspect’s other arm.
Having been in similar situations (wrestling/fighting a suspect on the ground) I know first hand that there is no easy answer. You take stuff and react as it happens. I just think the punches were stupid and un-needed.
Again, just my opinion based on 19 seconds of video. I’ll be happy to re-evaluate if the whole video ever airs.
~V5
V5 on November 14, 2006 at 3:52 AM
Shooter
No offense but how many arrests have you made?
I am retired Law Enforcement and can tell you that watching the video is very deceiving.
Did you know they just finished a foot pursuit?
Having made 1000 of arrests I can tell you that your remarks are naive. Until you have been in the fight of your life with one of these scumbags you have no idea how hard it is to get them handcuffed even with two guys on top of him.
This guy is a prior offender. They practice in prison and on outside with their gang buds on how to take officers guns and resist arrest. They have it down to science.
I am currently permanently disabled as the result of a fight with a gang banger very similar to one on tape. He attacked my female partner and almost broke her neck. I had to break his ribs and throw his head into the concrete to get him to stop and finally handcuff him. After his visit to the hospital, it was found that he had a large amount of speed and alcohol in his system.
I got two herniated discs out of the deal. My partner is disabled with cervical discs cracked and herniated and has not worked since.
The doctors said he probably felt no pain and had enormous strength from the speed
Until you walk in the shoes of the cops that risk their lives everyday, I suggest you stop making arm chair snap judgments on a video clip that has been edited to make the perp look good.
A court watched the whole tape and concluded they used justifiable force.
ScottyDog on November 14, 2006 at 10:41 AM