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We are going to be “watching” it more close up than ever. The Jihadis are here already. One is now a duly elected official from MINNESOTA….STAY THE WATCH, people. Have faith. This nightmare will end. It begins with swinging apeman there from a tree. And soon.
It hurts to hear this week after week, and yet we fail to listen and heed what you, Mark Steyn and Michelle have to say at our and our country’s greatest peril. We must summon the moral fortitude to continue to confront this regressive force on every front.
Do I agree with Islamic Law being the law of the land in Iraq? Absolutely not. However, as someone smarter than me wrote a few months ago, if this is what Iraq decides to do in a democracy, then we must respect that. If we’re going to demand that they have a Western-type style of laws, than it’s not really a democracy for Iraq then, eh?
Robert Spencer - Thank you for pointing out the atrocities being committed on the Catholics and Christians.
I strongly urge every one to email their local pastors and ask them to make their congregations aware this is going on.
I sent my Priests a similar email about 4 weeks ago.
At my church, the sermons and bulletin notes tend to lean a little left and they never pray for “victory” or that the “terrorists are stopped”, instead they pray that “World leaders will seek peace” or they pray “our troops return home safe”…
In my email, I included links describing the atrocities and much to my surprise, the next Sunday, the Priest actually said, “pray the terrorists are stopped” and “pray for our vets and troops who have done so much for our country”.
I think the Catholic Church here in the US has its head in the sand about what the Jihadists are doing to Catholics. The congregation needs to be aware of what is happening, why are the priests telling them??
I urge everyone to send the churches the link to AINA - The Assyrian International News Agency - it has the articles describing the persecution of Christians.
if this is what Iraq decides to do in a democracy, then we must respect that. If we’re going to demand that they have a Western-type style of laws, than it’s not really a democracy for Iraq then, eh?
This is a very thorny question, but very relevant with regards to sharia law and our whole reason for being in Iraq. So let me add to it: If a country votes to throw away its democracy in favor of a tyrannical system of laws, do they still have a democracy? And do we still need to respect it?
The Jihadis are here already. One is now a duly elected official from MINNESOTA.
Okay, way to be an intolerant bigot and ignorantly assume all Muslims are jihadists. Keith Ellison is an intelligent and pragmatic politician who brings a much needed perspective to Congress. If we want to understand who we are fighting and actually win the war having a few Muslims in power is not a bad thing. Stop wallowing around in your pool of paranoid, shallow-minded thought and welcome a Muslim congressman who may prove invaluable to our relations with the Muslim world.
if this is what Iraq decides to do in a democracy, then we must respect that. If we’re going to demand that they have a Western-type style of laws, than it’s not really a democracy for Iraq then, eh?
Sharia is the antithesis of democracy. I do not believe that the troops or the coalition governments had a clear understanding of that fact based on the following information:
Here is Lt. General John R. Vines recommended reading list .
As a matter of fact, West Point’s Combating Terrorism Center seems to be more representative of the types of recommended reading issued by Lt. General John R. Vines, the U.S. ground commander in Iraq. Among other books that minimize or explain away any connection between Islam and violence the site’s library does includes Chomsky, Schwartz and Esposito among others.
“The greatest Intelligence Failure of the Iraq War was not about WMD. It was about Islam, its tenets, its nature, the attitudes and atmospherics it engenders. It was an intelligence failure that continues as long as we prate about how everyone wants freedom (nonsense), that “democracy” will lessen the threat in the Middle East (double-nonsense), that the best way to limit a threat based entirely on the classic ideology of Islam is to say nothing, to learn nothing, to hint at nothing, about Islam itself.”
I think you make some interesting points. And I don’t think it is inconsistent with much of what I think. My point is this: if you want to give Iraq “freedom” and “democracy,” you can’t start complaining when they decide to do things different than what we would want them to do. It seems like you’re saying that Islamic countries should NOT have democracies because of their ideology. I don’t necessarily disagree (I have to think about it some more), but as your Fitzgerald quote implies, let’s be honest about what we want accomplished there. If you want a certain “rule of law” that is incompatible with the values of the majority there, then let’s say that, and let’s acknowledge that Iraq should not be a democracy. People can’t have it both ways.
Can I make a suggestion for guest broadcaster? You guys should get in touch with Melanie Philips. She is such an excellent, informed speaker. I bet she would jump at the chance.
My point is this: if you want to give Iraq “freedom” and “democracy,” you can’t start complaining when they decide to do things different than what we would want them to do. It seems like you’re saying that Islamic countries should NOT have democracies because of their ideology. I don’t necessarily disagree (I have to think about it some more), but as your Fitzgerald quote implies, let’s be honest about what we want accomplished there. If you want a certain “rule of law” that is incompatible with the values of the majority there, then let’s say that, and let’s acknowledge that Iraq should not be a democracy. People can’t have it both ways.
asc85 on November 9, 2006 at 11:34 AM
We most definitely should complain when we liberate them from a secular dictatorship and they turn immediately around and institute a theocratic dictatorship. If they choose to live like slaves, that is their problem, but we shouldn’t pay the price for it.
We should have forced Iraq to have what we have: a constitutional republic. “Democracy” only denotes how officials gain office (by majority election), it says nothing about what kind of powers the government has. The National Socialist Party of Nazi Germany was democratically elected. Americans need to stop swooning at every mention of “democracy” and understand it for what it is: majority rule. A constitutional republic recgonizes the protection of individual rights as the defining purpose of a government, and it establishes a constitution to delimit the powers of government to the exclusive fulfillment of that purpose.
Free societies do not spring forth from the ground, nor can they be created by government edict. They are philosophical institutions that come from the people’s mutual respect for individual rights. Iraq knows no such value. They know only brute force, and we should have left them to cut each other’s throats after having completely subdues them. If they want to live free, let them find their own way.
‘Democracy’ is three wolves and two sheep voting on what’s for dinner. We don’t want ‘democracy’; we want the rule of law, crafted to protect basic human liberties.
Iraqis have the right to organize things their way, but they need to respect the rights of minorities. They can interpret their provision to mean that no law should impose any action on a person that would violate the teachings of Islam: A cab driver should not be forced to take people to a bar. On the other hand, if the teachings of Islam violate anyone’s person or property, those teachings cannot be justly enforced by Men With Badges And Guns, nor can those MWBAGs be instructed to look the other way while thugs enforce them.
If Allah (the deity, not the pundit) doesn’t like women going about uncovered, let him strike them down himself, either with an appropriate calamity in this life, on the day of judgement. He doesn’t need anyone to do his dirty work for him.
These people will not fight for their own rights, and it looks like our country is angry at spilling our blodd for ungrateful countries, their time is coming to a craoss roads, the res tof the world won’t help them at all. And they are screwing us. They have little time before they can live in hell forever.
“My point is this: if you want to give Iraq “freedom” and “democracy,” you can’t start complaining when they decide to do things different than what we would want them to do…”
I think the point is, that ANY country or region that puts Sharia Law or ‘interpretations’ of Islam ABOVE all laws can NOT be a Democracy. Is is in and of itself impossible. Its like saying our democracy in America is now and forever going to be run by select Christians and only how they percieve Christianity, their decisions are above any and all laws that may contradict said interpretations.
A democracy in Iraq can not occure under their current constitution, imho.
Okay, way to be an intolerant bigot and ignorantly assume all Muslims are jihadists.
Just because you don’t personally kill people doesn’t mean you aren’t a jihadist. Ellison supports Hamas. That makes him a jihadist in my eyes. Plus Ellison is a member of Nation of Islam, a group whose virulent racism would make him unelectable were he white. Apparently, black racists are A-OK.
Do I agree with Islamic Law being the law of the land in Iraq? Absolutely not. However, as someone smarter than me wrote a few months ago, if this is what Iraq decides to do in a democracy, then we must respect that. If we’re going to demand that they have a Western-type style of laws, than it’s not really a democracy for Iraq then, eh?
Do I agree with Islamic Law being the law of the land in Iraq? Absolutely not. However, as someone smarter than me wrote a few months ago, if this is what Iraq decides to do in a democracy, then we must respect that. If we’re going to demand that they have a Western-type style of laws, than it’s not really a democracy for Iraq then, eh?
Unfortunately, a democracy in the modern western sense must protect things like religious rights for minorities, freedom of speech for all, etc. Sharia law contradicts all those things. We imposed a constitution on Japan after their defeat in WWII, but nowadays we have so little confidence in western civilization and have embraced multiculturalism to such a disastrous extent, that we dare not do the same today.
Okay, way to be an intolerant bigot and ignorantly assume all Muslims are jihadists. Keith Ellison is an intelligent and pragmatic politician who brings a much needed perspective to Congress.
JaHerer22 on November 9, 2006 at 10:26 AM
Keith Ellison has been a member of the Nation of Islam, has lied about it, has run for office under the name Keith Ellison Muhammad, has been associated with CAIR, and has been a supporter of cop killers and violent gangs. Power Line has had a lot to say about it, if you’d like to read more.
Excellent Vent! Robert Spencer consistently delivers excellent content, clear thinking and rationale, and superb commentary in his vents. This is the reporting and commentary that makes Hot Air so memorable - and a must read reach day.
I have definitely come to the conclusion that Islam in it’s tradtional form is not compatable with democracy. A true “Islamic Reformation” as we discussed in previous post is the solution. Trying to make democracy work in Afganistan, Iraq, or any other Muslim dominated area is an impossible task.
Blowback
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We are going to be “watching” it more close up than ever. The Jihadis are here already. One is now a duly elected official from MINNESOTA….STAY THE WATCH, people. Have faith. This nightmare will end. It begins with swinging apeman there from a tree. And soon.
seejanemom on November 9, 2006 at 8:07 AM
It hurts to hear this week after week, and yet we fail to listen and heed what you, Mark Steyn and Michelle have to say at our and our country’s greatest peril. We must summon the moral fortitude to continue to confront this regressive force on every front.
Thank you for not letting us get away.
Webutante
Webutante on November 9, 2006 at 9:13 AM
Do I agree with Islamic Law being the law of the land in Iraq? Absolutely not. However, as someone smarter than me wrote a few months ago, if this is what Iraq decides to do in a democracy, then we must respect that. If we’re going to demand that they have a Western-type style of laws, than it’s not really a democracy for Iraq then, eh?
asc85 on November 9, 2006 at 9:19 AM
Robert Spencer - Thank you for pointing out the atrocities being committed on the Catholics and Christians.
I strongly urge every one to email their local pastors and ask them to make their congregations aware this is going on.
I sent my Priests a similar email about 4 weeks ago.
At my church, the sermons and bulletin notes tend to lean a little left and they never pray for “victory” or that the “terrorists are stopped”, instead they pray that “World leaders will seek peace” or they pray “our troops return home safe”…
In my email, I included links describing the atrocities and much to my surprise, the next Sunday, the Priest actually said, “pray the terrorists are stopped” and “pray for our vets and troops who have done so much for our country”.
I think the Catholic Church here in the US has its head in the sand about what the Jihadists are doing to Catholics. The congregation needs to be aware of what is happening, why are the priests telling them??
I urge everyone to send the churches the link to AINA - The Assyrian International News Agency - it has the articles describing the persecution of Christians.
flagwaver on November 9, 2006 at 9:24 AM
opps - it should say, “why aren’t the priests telling them?”
flagwaver on November 9, 2006 at 9:29 AM
This is a very thorny question, but very relevant with regards to sharia law and our whole reason for being in Iraq. So let me add to it: If a country votes to throw away its democracy in favor of a tyrannical system of laws, do they still have a democracy? And do we still need to respect it?
Hack Ptui on November 9, 2006 at 10:20 AM
Okay, way to be an intolerant bigot and ignorantly assume all Muslims are jihadists. Keith Ellison is an intelligent and pragmatic politician who brings a much needed perspective to Congress. If we want to understand who we are fighting and actually win the war having a few Muslims in power is not a bad thing. Stop wallowing around in your pool of paranoid, shallow-minded thought and welcome a Muslim congressman who may prove invaluable to our relations with the Muslim world.
JaHerer22 on November 9, 2006 at 10:26 AM
ecs85 stated:
Sharia is the antithesis of democracy. I do not believe that the troops or the coalition governments had a clear understanding of that fact based on the following information:
Here is Lt. General John R. Vines recommended reading list .
As a matter of fact, West Point’s Combating Terrorism Center seems to be more representative of the types of recommended reading issued by Lt. General John R. Vines, the U.S. ground commander in Iraq. Among other books that minimize or explain away any connection between Islam and violence the site’s library does includes Chomsky, Schwartz and Esposito among others.
Not a single volume from Ibn Warraq, Bat Ye’Or , Robert Spencer, Emerson, Trifkovic or Pipes.
To quote Hugh Fitzgerald:
heroyalwhyness on November 9, 2006 at 10:51 AM
heroyalwhyness,
I think you make some interesting points. And I don’t think it is inconsistent with much of what I think. My point is this: if you want to give Iraq “freedom” and “democracy,” you can’t start complaining when they decide to do things different than what we would want them to do. It seems like you’re saying that Islamic countries should NOT have democracies because of their ideology. I don’t necessarily disagree (I have to think about it some more), but as your Fitzgerald quote implies, let’s be honest about what we want accomplished there. If you want a certain “rule of law” that is incompatible with the values of the majority there, then let’s say that, and let’s acknowledge that Iraq should not be a democracy. People can’t have it both ways.
asc85 on November 9, 2006 at 11:34 AM
Can I make a suggestion for guest broadcaster? You guys should get in touch with Melanie Philips. She is such an excellent, informed speaker. I bet she would jump at the chance.
WriterMom on November 9, 2006 at 12:16 PM
We most definitely should complain when we liberate them from a secular dictatorship and they turn immediately around and institute a theocratic dictatorship. If they choose to live like slaves, that is their problem, but we shouldn’t pay the price for it.
We should have forced Iraq to have what we have: a constitutional republic. “Democracy” only denotes how officials gain office (by majority election), it says nothing about what kind of powers the government has. The National Socialist Party of Nazi Germany was democratically elected. Americans need to stop swooning at every mention of “democracy” and understand it for what it is: majority rule. A constitutional republic recgonizes the protection of individual rights as the defining purpose of a government, and it establishes a constitution to delimit the powers of government to the exclusive fulfillment of that purpose.
Free societies do not spring forth from the ground, nor can they be created by government edict. They are philosophical institutions that come from the people’s mutual respect for individual rights. Iraq knows no such value. They know only brute force, and we should have left them to cut each other’s throats after having completely subdues them. If they want to live free, let them find their own way.
Lazarus on November 9, 2006 at 12:27 PM
‘Democracy’ is three wolves and two sheep voting on what’s for dinner. We don’t want ‘democracy’; we want the rule of law, crafted to protect basic human liberties.
Iraqis have the right to organize things their way, but they need to respect the rights of minorities. They can interpret their provision to mean that no law should impose any action on a person that would violate the teachings of Islam: A cab driver should not be forced to take people to a bar. On the other hand, if the teachings of Islam violate anyone’s person or property, those teachings cannot be justly enforced by Men With Badges And Guns, nor can those MWBAGs be instructed to look the other way while thugs enforce them.
If Allah (the deity, not the pundit) doesn’t like women going about uncovered, let him strike them down himself, either with an appropriate calamity in this life, on the day of judgement. He doesn’t need anyone to do his dirty work for him.
The Monster on November 9, 2006 at 12:54 PM
These people will not fight for their own rights, and it looks like our country is angry at spilling our blodd for ungrateful countries, their time is coming to a craoss roads, the res tof the world won’t help them at all. And they are screwing us. They have little time before they can live in hell forever.
retired on November 9, 2006 at 1:37 PM
I think the point is, that ANY country or region that puts Sharia Law or ‘interpretations’ of Islam ABOVE all laws can NOT be a Democracy. Is is in and of itself impossible. Its like saying our democracy in America is now and forever going to be run by select Christians and only how they percieve Christianity, their decisions are above any and all laws that may contradict said interpretations.
A democracy in Iraq can not occure under their current constitution, imho.
shooter on November 9, 2006 at 1:56 PM
Islam is a government. I’ve said it here before, heard it here before, now I truly believe it.
It’s de facto governing, in Iraq’s constitution.
shooter on November 9, 2006 at 1:59 PM
Lazarus, by defining the democratic republic - you covered it better than I could - thanks.
Retired -
not completely true - the Kurds are very greatful.
heroyalwhyness on November 9, 2006 at 2:01 PM
Just because you don’t personally kill people doesn’t mean you aren’t a jihadist. Ellison supports Hamas. That makes him a jihadist in my eyes. Plus Ellison is a member of Nation of Islam, a group whose virulent racism would make him unelectable were he white. Apparently, black racists are A-OK.
aynrandgirl on November 9, 2006 at 2:39 PM
tommy1 on November 9, 2006 at 5:00 PM
Unfortunately, a democracy in the modern western sense must protect things like religious rights for minorities, freedom of speech for all, etc. Sharia law contradicts all those things. We imposed a constitution on Japan after their defeat in WWII, but nowadays we have so little confidence in western civilization and have embraced multiculturalism to such a disastrous extent, that we dare not do the same today.
tommy1 on November 9, 2006 at 5:01 PM
tommy1-
“…we dare not...”
Exactly.
And those who lose their daring are aiming for a paring.
Of the only things that ultimately keep us free.
Testicular Fortitude.
(Or Ovarian Obstreperousness, for the ladies.)
“Democracy” is meaningless without a secular Bill of Rights.
Otherwise we merely open the gates of the Zoo(Iraq) and allow the most rapacious predators (al-Sadr/al-Sistani) to set the new rules.
Sharia is merely Lex Talionis with a “God” to wash its bloody claws.
profitsbeard on November 9, 2006 at 5:36 PM
I think all the Vent episodes should be on Brit Hume’s news cast. This edition was very enlightening. Thanks Robert.
Zorro on November 9, 2006 at 7:12 PM
Keith Ellison has been a member of the Nation of Islam, has lied about it, has run for office under the name Keith Ellison Muhammad, has been associated with CAIR, and has been a supporter of cop killers and violent gangs. Power Line has had a lot to say about it, if you’d like to read more.
kate q on November 9, 2006 at 8:19 PM
Excellent Vent! Robert Spencer consistently delivers excellent content, clear thinking and rationale, and superb commentary in his vents. This is the reporting and commentary that makes Hot Air so memorable - and a must read reach day.
I have definitely come to the conclusion that Islam in it’s tradtional form is not compatable with democracy. A true “Islamic Reformation” as we discussed in previous post is the solution. Trying to make democracy work in Afganistan, Iraq, or any other Muslim dominated area is an impossible task.
omegaram on November 10, 2006 at 3:22 AM