I think you can make a case that all this re-districting over the years is unConstitutional. It certainly has made Congress unresponsive and irresponsible.

honora on October 26, 2006 at 12:05 PM

Good point. I’ve never understood why redistricting can’t wait for the census anymore.

Honora writes:

And I guess this is one of the reasons so many of us questioned the wisdom of this war: if it’s a real possiblity that we will leave it in worse shape (in terms of stability and our best interests) was this a risk worth taking?

For myself, I’m not smart enough to answer this. Where my antipathy towards the administration comes, is that they didn’t ask the question and they (and their supporters) equated asking it to being somehow less than patriotic.

The reasons we went to war against Saddam’s regime were stated in the findings in Public Law 107-243. There were about 2 dozen of them including notice that Iraq had committed at least 2 internationally recognized acts of war against America: Attempting to assassinate a former head of state, and firing upon US aircraft while flying UN sanctioned missions over the No-Fly zone.

But rather than recite this long list of casus belli, George Bush spoke to the American people and told them why.

“Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late.”

President George W. Bush, State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003

In the 2004 Presidential Debates, the President expanded this poing.

After September the 11th, America had to assess every potential threat in a new light. Our nation awakened to an even greater danger, the prospect that terrorists who killed thousands with hijacked airplanes would kill many more with weapons of mass murder. We had to take a hard look at everyplace where terrorists might get those weapons. And one regime stood out: the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein.

We knew the dictator had a history of using weapons of mass destruction, a long record of aggression and hatred for America. He was listed by Republican and Democrat administrations as a state sponsor of terrorists. There was a risk–a real risk–that Saddam Hussein would pass weapons, or materials, or information to terrorist networks. In the world after September the 11th, that was a risk we could not afford to take….

…After September the 11th, our object in the war on terror is not to wait for the next attack and respond, but to prevent attacks by taking the fight to the enemy.

George W. Bush, 10/6/2004

It is unfortunate that you liberals chose to put your fingers in your ears and sing “LA-LA-LA-LA” instead of listening.

Why was war with Iraq (and Afghanistan) necessary?

And after the chaos and carnage of September the 11th, it is not enough to serve our enemies with legal papers.

President George W. Bush, “Remarks by the President at Bush-Cheney 2004 Luncheon,” 3/8/2004, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/03/20040308-7.html

As to being less than patriotic. Yes. YOUR SIDE HAS BEEN. In your opposition to the war, your side has actively attempted to sabotage the war and give bin Laden what he cannot obtain on his own: Forcing America to cut and run in Iraq, the way he promised we would do.

And, the leaked (and then declassified) NIE makes it clear: Defeat (i.e., cutting an running) in Iraq means victory for Al Qaeda, and will result in an enboldened Jihad. Winning in Iraq means a near death blow to the entire Islamofacist movement.

The actions of liberals and leftist in their attempt to undermine this war has put all Americans in danger. Our enemy does not recognize your actions as anything other than a willingness of Americans to cave under pressure.

So, yes. YOU SIDE IS UNPATRIOTIC.

Because you can’t understand what the stakes are. Michael Walzer, editor of Dissent Magazine does, and he wrote:

…We can be as critical as we like, but these are people whose fate we share; we are responsible for their safety as they are for ours, and our politics has to reflect that mutual responsibility. When they are attacked, so are we; and we should join willingly and constructively in debates about how to defend the country.”

“Can there be a decent left?” Dissent Magazine, Spring 2002,
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/wwwboard/salon.html

Your side has NOT been constructive in the debate. It has been destructive because all you offer is “cut and run.” Oh. And BUSH LIED!!, NO BLOOD FOR OIL, and HALIBURTON!!

Honora also wrote:

Well, there’s a lesson there I think. The admin behaved rashly and arrogantly and IMO have put us and our troops in danger needlessly.

I’ve cited author and columnist Austin Bay several times now. Bay was a Lt. Col. in OIF, and was on Tommy Frank’s operations staff and help plan the invasion. He wrote:

“The essence of strategic art is to force an enemy to fight on your terms, not his, and ideally in a fight he cannot refuse….”

The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan had multiple goals — take down the country that harbored the architect of 9/11/01, and take down a dictator that (1) had use WMD against both foreign and domestic enemies, (2) was actively looking to acquire nuclear weapons (and yes, Joe Wilson LIED!), and (3) present Al Qaeda with a challenge that they had no choice but to accept.

Bin Laden and Al Zawahira have stated numerous times, that a DEMOCRATIC Iraq is completely unacceptable and is a major threat to their goals.

Invading Iraq (and Afghanistan, for that matter) was not a rash or arrogant act. It was a deliberate, strategic, OFFENSIVE strike upon Al Qaeda and the terrorist states in the middle east, of which Iraq was one. It was designed to force him to fight THERE, not in our country.

Our conduct of the war in both Afghanistan and Iraq was plainly and clearly designed to minimize civilian casualties and infrastructure damage.

We did NOT, for example, carpet bomb Baghdad, blow up their irrigation damn, or even strike their cultural heritage. And the same occured in Afghanistan.

We did not use our full military power against either of these countries because our goal was not the complete destruction of these countries but the removal of their government. If we wanted to, both Afghanistan and Iraq COULD have been turned into radioactive green glass, with 99+% population casualties with zero casualties to US personnel.

I cannot say if the insurgency as it became was foreseen, though the act of applying only enough force to kick out the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and Saddam in Iraq clearly suggests that the administration attempted to give the peoples of Afghanistan and Iraq a chance at self government, if they would choose to take it.

Afghanistan accepted and embraced democracy; something new to a country steeped in thousands of years of tribal culture.

Iraq’s people accepted it as well. 12 million purple fingers, over 60% of the eligible population, speaks volumes about their beliefs and desire for democracy.

The most recent Iraq opinion polls at the Brookings Institution show two things: The Iraqi people want us out. But only after their country is stable. And in the mean time they are grateful for our presence.

Unfortunately, a relatively small number of people (20,000 out of a population of 26 million) disagree with the majority and have chosen terrorism (both sectarian and secular) instead.

You used the usual liberal mantra of putting “our troops in danger needlessly.”

Sorry to disagree with you but our country is engaged in a global war against a rogue branch of Islam. They struck numerous first blows against us, our embassies, our warships, and against two of our cities. The troops are successfully engaging the enemy on a battlefield of OUR choice. Our military is going in harm’s way because that is their job. The fact that our casualties are astonishing low in absolute terms is testimony that your (and liberalism’s) premise of “needless danger” is nonsense.

We need to be in Iraq because if we were not, THEY would be striking American cities instead. It really is not much more complicated than that.

I know I’m talking to a brick wall here, but the truth needs to be spoken.

Where is Jack Bauer or Chuck Norris when we realy need them?

E L also writes: “what is stopping the Shia’s from joining Iran?”

Iran is Persian. Iraq is Arab. They hate each other. Any cooperation going on between the Iran and the insurgents (both Sunni and Shiia) is the old middle east “the enemy of mine enemy” thing.

Honora:

Let’s capture the moment. How about some across the isle compromise. If you promise to vote straight Republican in 06 I promise to vote straight Democrat in 07!

Limerick on October 25, 2006 at 5:04 PM

Make that 08 and you’ve got a deal!!! (Sadly, my vote for Casey won’t matter, he’s in; more sadly, my vote for my Congressman won’t matter either as he is running unopposed. Which underscores my big issue: the gerrymandering that has only about 30 or 40 house seats competitive. I think you can make a case that all this re-districting over the years is unConstitutional. It certainly has made Congress unresponsive and irresponsible. Rant over for now.)

November and the midterm elections are almost here. For the first time in my life I am considering voting solely based on a candidates party affiliation. This is odd not just because it is first for m, but because I agree with critics back to John Adam…

Q&A – Mr. Bush pretty fluent. I always wonder how come he sometimes can speak and othertimes hardly at all. Gregory somewhat subdued. No Helen Thomas. Questioners pretty boring. Not even setting traps. Just fairly quiet. I know what they are feeling and in part thinking…Then Mr. Bush drops the ‘curtain bomb’ on them and here comes the best part:

I understand in Washington people have already determined the outcome of the election. Not this august group, of course

Time to change the world work. Then drive home to North San Diego.

HOT AiR time! So many threads, so little time. Find this one. Totally serious topic, good discussion, and total crack up.

Limerick, you’re the funniest and I’m glad you’re here.

honora, from one lady to another (under any interpretation of the word), you’re adopted by this clan. And it’s a good one, and ya know it! I know you’re grinning approvingly. Then, I spotted your intellect, wit and spiritedness a long time ago, even though we disagree often, but not always, i.e.

Also, I couldn’t decide if Bush looked angry or scared or both.

honora on October 25, 2006 at 1:38 PM

I was totally alert and he didn’t seem either. He was just himself, full of worries and confidence. I falt him for much but I believe he’s the man for these times. He’s got the fortitude and we sure need it. I loved it when he said accountability rests with him, while responding to the Rumsfeld question, which was lame. The reporters looked and acted scared.

p.v. cornelius, after I was already in stitches over the path this thread took, you topped it off with the “from Venus” comment. Killed me off.

But, I’m back to tell you – women and men are from Earth – they’re very different from each other and all we have to do is accept this as fact. Hah! Therin lies the challenge, the fun and the horror, because women:

- simplify your life
- duplicate your happiness and
- triplicate your expenses

…at best.

No beers, but cheers anyway.

On a very serious note – we can’t leave Iraq and we can’t bomb the entire region – we must concentrate our efforts to communicate better on what the WoT s/b called, what it is and what it will take on multi-levels, and in myriad ways to win it. If not, we won’t be around to banter about anything freely, on threads like this one.

Excerpt……

If it makes you feel any better, many of us here at HotAir see your political views as coming straight out of Mars – just kidding…sort of.

Rick on October 25, 2006 at 4:25 PM

Wait—I thought women were from Venus.

oh, man, Honora’s last post was reasoned and well-thought-out (even if I didn’t agree w/all of it). Quick, someone hand me a beer and a shot!

dalewalt on October 25, 2006 at 3:51 PM

Yep. While I seldom agree with her on almost anything, her civility and tone here are to be commended and respected.

Lively discussion among intellectually honest people is a very good thing.

You just got me cut off Rick…..$##@#$%#@!@

How many beers is that now?

Let’s capture the moment. How about some across the isle compromise. If you promise to vote straight Republican in 06 I promise to vote straight Democrat in 07!

And when we get tired of the love and kindness, we’ll invite GregH back.

I always told my girls when they were growing up to “act ladylike”; they looked at me like I was a Martian.

honora on October 25, 2006 at 4:12 PM

If it makes you feel any better, many of us here at HotAir see your political views as coming straight out of Mars – just kidding…sort of.

honora is a lady.

Rick on October 25, 2006 at 4:00 PM

Well, not always as you have probably observed!!!

;^)

Isn’t it funny that “lady” in the sense of well bred is not something you hear very often. Kinda sad I think. I always told my girls when they were growing up to “act ladylike”; they looked at me like I was a Martian.

1)Cut & Run (they call it redeployment)from Iraq

2) appease countries like North Korea & Iran – by letting them have nuclear power (well, nuclear weapons)

3)give constitutional rights to captured terrorists at Gitmo Bay (well democrats say that we have to be nice to them so that they can be nice to us)

4)give amnesty to all 12 illegal immingrants in this country & to keep the borders open so that they can keep giving amnesty to everyone (well, Democrats call it a “guest worker” program).

5)get rid of the NSA program so that the terrorists can call anyone they want & to plan another terrorist attack on this country. (of course democrats want to follow the law, even if thousands of american lives would be lost, so long as liberal democrats again, follow the law).

6)kill the “Patriot Act” because it infringes on the rights of terrorists in this country & heaven forbid, that we should ever infringe on those who want to kill us.

I even find myself agreeing with Allah about KP.

HotAir, bringing Dems and Reps together…

For myself, I’m not smart enough to answer this. Where my antipathy towards the administration comes, is that they didn’t ask the question and they (and their supporters) equated asking it to being somehow less than patriotic.

That’s a bunch of crap. I just love how the Dems are making every single election about Iraq – and then lose. You know why? Because most of the Dems were “for the war before they were against it”. We went in there, all looked good early on, and everybody was happy. Things got tough and the Dems changed their minds and said – this really sucks, it’s hard work, we need to get out of there – that Damn Bush, he lied to us!! Every liberal became an armchair general – second guessing the administration.

Which reminds me, whatever became of that Congressional investigation into statements made by our political leaders that allegedly led us into the war in the first place? It somehow went to the backburner when the Republicans fought to also include statements made by Democrats (as opposed to just statements made by Bush – claiming he misled us to war)