Video: Caviezel et al. respond to Michael J. Fox’s stem-cell ad; Update: Talent surges ahead of McCaskill?

posted at 6:54 pm on October 24, 2006 by Allahpundit

Sort of. Fox’s spot is a campaign ad for Claire McCaskill. Caviezel’s clip is an ad opposing Amendment 2, the stem-cell initiative on the ballot in Missouri.

If you believe in “ensoulment,” you’re probably with Caviezel. If, like me, you don’t, you’re probably with Fox. And if you’re worried about slippery slopes, you should probably revisit your logic for supporting the CIA’s authority to belly-slap Khaled Sheikh Mohammed.

I’ve watched this vid six times now and I still can’t understand what Caviezel says at the beginning. Is that … Aramaic? Is he actually doing a little JC reprise to lean on Missouri’s Christian voters? Talk about playing the infallibility card.

Be sure to follow that last link and read Barnett, by the way. He’s catching hell from the Ministry of Tolerance for not having unthinkingly defended a fellow “victim.” That sort of thing seems to be going around, alas.

Update: Don’t miss Tinti’s MJF parody ad.

Update: Republican Rep. Barbara Cubin introduces a novel way of disagreeing with the handicapped. Good lord.

Update: Talent up by three in Mizzou? Mary K says the national tide’s a-turning. I want to believe — but I don’t.

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I believe Caviezel says, “My brotha’ locks me in a shack….”

So very sad.

Fargus on October 25, 2006 at 12:50 PM

OK, but only the lack of nourishment and the lack of a womb keep it from growing. Whether or not most become children, they do have the coding to become children if put in the right environment.

Not necessarily. Take a look at IVF success rates. More than half of implanted embryos don’t make it.

We don’t have His knack for success at this life creation thing.

Pablo on October 25, 2006 at 12:50 PM

On Lucianne.com there is an article by a Medical Doctor who discusses the advantages of the adult stem cell over the embryonic stem cell. I don’t know how to link but she disputes what Michael Fox says. The article appears in The American Thinker and her name is Mary Davenport.

Rose on October 25, 2006 at 12:52 PM

Pablo:

We’re being flooded with exciting new developments from the alternatives to ESCs, called adult stem cells. Taken from a person’s own body or from umbilical cords or placenta, these cells are treating ever more diseases. Further, ASC research in humans and animals keeps biting away at the alleged trump card of ESCs that only they can be transformed into every type of cell in the body. Cardiologist Douglas Losordo’s research lab at Caritas St. Elizabeth’s Medical Center in Boston has now become the latest indicate ASCs can do just that.

ASCs are now rebuilding human livers:

Until now, the only hope for persons with irreversible liver failure from such diseases as cirrhosis, which kills about 27, 000 Americans yearly, was transplantation. This requires permanent use of immunosuppressive drugs which can lead to opportunistic infections and cancer. Most importantly, it requires a new liver. About a thousand Americans are now on a waiting list for one and many will die there.

But scientists from London’s Imperial College report in The New Scientist that they have repaired patients’ own damaged livers by using bone marrow adult stem cells painlessly collected from their own blood. Five were injected with a drug that stimulated their marrow to produce extra stem cells that were then injected into a blood vessel leading directly to the liver.

Alzheimer’s:

Indeed, several studies have converted stem cells from both marrow and the central nervous system into brain cells. Stem Cells, Inc. of Palo Alto, Calif., for example, has purified stem cells from human brain tissue, multiplied them, then transplanted these into mouse brains. There they grew into human neurons and surrounding brain tissue called glia. Thus it appears we have the building blocks of brain repair for Alzheimer’s and other neurological diseases; we just need to figure out how to use them.

Doctors Use Patients’ Own Stem Cells to Build New Blood Vessels:

Aug. 2, 2005 Adult stem cells are found throughout the body in the brain, bones, muscle, skin and blood which help heal the body after injury. But now, researchers are using high concentrations of these cells to actually build new arteries in adult patients.

Results in more than 100 patients show that, within just three months after the stem cell injections, patients see a significant improvement in blood flow to the heart. The heart muscle itself actually doubles its ability to squeeze or contract.

Curing Brain Diseases by Growing New Cells?

June 22, 2005 Scientists are getting closer to reaching one of the Holy Grails of medical research regenerating brain cells to wipe out a wide range of neurological diseases, including Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and epilepsy.

Using a powerful microscope, the researchers photographed the [adult] stem cells in the petri dish every five minutes for up to 30 hours. They ended up with a time-lapse movie that shows exactly what changed every time a new chemical was tried out on the cells.

Thus they were able to change the course of the development by chemical manipulation, and that’s perhaps the most important aspect of all. That suggests that chemicals, not surgery, may be able to correct a diseased mind that is now almost impossible to treat.

Stem cells from fat used to repair girl’s skull:

Surgeons have used stem cells from fat to help repair skull damage in a 7-year-old girl in Germany, in whats apparently the first time such fat-derived cells have been exploited to grow bone in a human.

These are all about Adult Stem Cells.

Esthier on October 25, 2006 at 12:58 PM

Pablo, as with what you did yesterday and the day before…you wax on eloquently on the all the benefits to be gained from ESC research (the ends) without wanting to deal with the means to that end which is abortion, a human egg market (as Pat Healy makes clear on the ad) and proprietary use of other peoples’ embryos.
This is before we start sliding down AP’s dreaded, but nonetheless real, slippery slope to cloning, genetic engineering and embryo and body part farms.

Texan, excellent commentary my fellow Texan and kaltes, TheBigOldDog, Freelancer, Esthier, others, also great!

When all is said and done, I don’t really care if ESC research could cure Parkinson’s or anything else, because destroying human life while trying to play being God is too high a price to pay for a cure for anything.
Worse than the slippery slope, this a threshold and one that we really, really do not want to cross.

Jen the Neocon on October 25, 2006 at 12:59 PM

This isn’t a slippery slope it’s a threshold and one that we really, really do not want to cross.
It doesn’t matter what ESC research promises, because destroying human life in any form to arrive at possible cures is too high a price to pay.

Jen the Neocon on October 25, 2006 at 1:04 PM

So how bout that Rush Limbaugh? Accusing M Fox of going off his meds to magnify the trembling from his Parkinson’s? Were you Rush, would you not steer clear of the subject of abusing medication?? Jesus H Christ. And as anyone with any knowledge of this horrible disease knows, the medication often stimulates the response.

Oh details.

honora on October 25, 2006 at 1:13 PM

Rush was just repeating what M. Fox said in his book. He admitted that this is what he did in order to gain more sympathy for victims of the disease.

Rose on October 25, 2006 at 1:18 PM

Exactly, he was only using Fox’s own words and even said he didn’t believe it was a problem if Fox had done that.

“Oh details”.

Esthier on October 25, 2006 at 1:29 PM

Esthier, amazing things are being done with ASC’s. I support and applaud that work.

But none of it makes the one into the other. They are not the same and they never will be.

This is already happening and we’re already paying for some of it by order of George Bush. There’s a scientific reason for that, and I’m not making it up as I go along.

Pablo on October 25, 2006 at 1:46 PM

Pablo, as with what you did yesterday and the day before…you wax on eloquently on the all the benefits to be gained from ESC research (the ends) without wanting to deal with the means to that end which is abortion, a human egg market (as Pat Healy makes clear on the ad) and proprietary use of other peoples’ embryos.

Jen, if you can’t be bothered to read the thread before you start commenting on what it says, I’m not going to waste my time talking to you, capiche?

Pablo on October 25, 2006 at 1:51 PM

I’m not saying you are making it up, but neither am I. Everything is pointing to ASC being able to do all the things ESC promise to do.

What you’re saying about using ESC to turn them into any and everything is actually being done with ASC. So what is the difference then? What is it that ESC have that ASC do not?

Esthier on October 25, 2006 at 1:54 PM

Everything is pointing to ASC being able to do all the things ESC promise to do.

I think that’s an overstatement by an order of magnitude.

What is it that ESC have that ASC do not?

Pluripotency.

Pablo on October 25, 2006 at 2:30 PM

I read the thread, Pablo, and what I said still stands.
(Although I posted 2 replies due to some a computer problem.)
ESC research and all it involves is soul-destroying and it makes me ill to think and talk about it, being a woman and all.
Life is sacred and not to be treated like a lab experiment.
I don’t care what those ESCs supposedly cure, I don’t want any part of it.
And believe it or not, I suffer from a disease that could use more research and better drugs myself.

Jen the Neocon on October 25, 2006 at 2:32 PM

Pablo, I’ve just given you several sources where ASC have been able to do just that. Cells taken from the patient’s own bone marrow or blood have been able to regrow livers. There was just a guy on the radio talking about how ASC cured his MS.

These are not overstatements or wishes. These are articles about things ASC have actually done. These ASC are being made to effect any number of cells and organs.

The only overstatement (as I’ve seen) is that ESC will ever be worthwhile. There’s no proof of that.

There is however proof that ASC can be used to cure diseases right now.

Christopher Reeve never walked before dying. But two people who were paralyzed did. With the help of ASC not ESC.

Esthier on October 25, 2006 at 2:37 PM

Cells taken from the patient’s own bone marrow or blood have been able to regrow livers.

Bone marrow SC’s are the most versitile of the ASC’s, and the most primative as far as they go, because they do go out and turn into things that adult’s need them to turn into. But they are not pluripotent. You can’t take a marrow SC and coax it into being whatever you want it to be.

The only overstatement (as I’ve seen) is that ESC will ever be worthwhile. There’s no proof of that.

Proof means different things to different people, I suppose. there is an enormous amount of evidence that they will, much of it based on what we’ve learned in decades of ASC research. Why do you think Bush authorized the funding he did if there just no point in it?

Find me a scientist that says otherwise. For all of the things ASC’s are capable of ESC’s can do more. We know enough about their nature to know that, and science doesn’t start at zero every time a new thing comes along. We know this to be true because we’ve seen the different types and seen how they behave.

We didn’t need to have home electronics systems for people to realize that electricity was capable of doing much more than fire was. We knew there was a greater potential long before we harnessed it efficiently.

Pablo on October 25, 2006 at 2:56 PM

Rush was just repeating what M. Fox said in his book. He admitted that this is what he did in order to gain more sympathy for victims of the disease.

Rose on October 25, 2006 at 1:18 PM

Exactly, he was only using Fox’s own words and even said he didn’t believe it was a problem if Fox had done that.

“Oh details”.

Esthier on October

Oh please. This is the kind of whiney excuses one expects from children. Speaking of children, how would you like your kids to follow Rush’s lead on this? Shame on him, mocking people with serious diseases. You want to disagree with stem cell research or its funding, fine. Can’t you do it in a dignified and respectful manner?

I believe this is what is known as “attacking the messenger”, a tactic associated with people who are incapable of attacking the message. Asshole.

honora on October 25, 2006 at 3:01 PM

I believe this is what is known as “attacking the messenger”, a tactic associated with people who are incapable of attacking the message. Asshole.

honora on October 25, 2006 at 3:01 PM

But seriously, how do you really feel about this?

Rick on October 25, 2006 at 3:16 PM

Oh please. This is the kind of whiney excuses one expects from children. Speaking of children, how would you like your kids to follow Rush’s lead on this? Shame on him, mocking people with serious diseases. You want to disagree with stem cell research or its funding, fine. Can’t you do it in a dignified and respectful manner?

I don’t have any kids, but if I did, I would have no problem as Rush did not mock the man.

He only said, as I already said, that Fox was likely off of his meds, which he said because Fox admitted to doing so when he wanted to show people the effects of his disease.

And after saying that, Rush also said that he had no problem with Fox doing this if indeed this is what Fox had done.

If I had kids, I would be more ashamed if they called a man an a-hole without even listening to the man to see if he is indeed an a-hole.

Listen to Rush or don’t. I really don’t care. But don’t claim to know what you are talking about when you do not, specifically when you tout “details” as your weapon of choice.

Esthier on October 25, 2006 at 3:24 PM

Bone marrow SC’s are the most versitile of the ASC’s, and the most primative as far as they go, because they do go out and turn into things that adult’s need them to turn into. But they are not pluripotent. You can’t take a marrow SC and coax it into being whatever you want it to be.

But that is what they are doing. They’ve used bone marrow to grow several different organs.

Esthier on October 25, 2006 at 3:25 PM

honora, Rush was very fair and polite in his criticism of the Fox ad; he merely pointed out that Fox has openly admitted that he goes off his meds to make political statements about his disease and that that was the case here.
He challenged Fox to deny it, whereupon he said that he would gladly apologize to Fox if he was wrong.
Curiously, Michael J. Fox has yet to say that Rush was wrong.

Your defense of Fox’s cheap political ploy merely points out what Ann Coulter said in her Godless book about Liberal figures of “infallibility” like Fox, Cindy Sheehan, the Jersey Girls or Max Cleland, that those are “holy” figures the Lefts shoves forward to do their dirty work and with whom one is supposed to be powerless to criticize.
Rush refused to do it and for this he is said to be “attacking the messenger” and “an *sshole….

Jen the Neocon on October 25, 2006 at 3:33 PM

Several people looking half-dead and as if they are in a police line-up, most of whom forgot to shave for several days. Not very convincing. And what was that about 25,000 dead? I don’t see the connection.

Vanya on October 25, 2006 at 3:41 PM

ESC’s are pluripotent. They can become any type of cell in the body.

It is this very characteristic of ESCs that is most likely responsible for the fact that ESC research is leading nowhere, whereas ASC research has blossomed. The pluripotency of ESCs is the attribute that leads to the development of teratomas in the host.

IrishEi on October 25, 2006 at 3:53 PM

The left’s counter response will be…

Those are mere facts! Don’t confuse the public with the facts.

x95b10 on October 25, 2006 at 4:24 PM

Honora, I do have kids and I would be ashamed of them if they were as foul mouthed as you and as incapble as you of discussing things in a rational manner. You are a very poor example of an adult, that’s for sure.

Rose on October 25, 2006 at 4:27 PM

The left can draw the line at what is, and what is not torture, and then they can invoke their arguments when that line is crossed, but not before.
Keltes

Let me be clear, I agree with your stance, except the presumption that the left can actually be rational. If you give the left the right to draw a line, they will draw it at no-consequences-for-bad-behavior, no jail time for child rapist or murderers, no detention or deportation for illegal aliens, etc. Just like if one gave Hamas the right to define acceptable terms in Israel: Jews can live just west of the “Palestinian” shoreline.

Flame on!!

urbancenturion on October 25, 2006 at 4:30 PM

Wow, there might be a clean up on aisle 9.

**sits back to watch… : )

ar_basin on October 25, 2006 at 5:55 PM

It is this very characteristic of ESCs that is most likely responsible for the fact that ESC research is leading nowhere, whereas ASC research has blossomed.

ESC research is moving along a a fairly brisk pace, considering the limited funding. And we are still funding it. Here are the guidlines for applying for Federal funding for embryonic stem cell research grants. ESC’s were first discovered 8 years ago. We’ve been playing with ASC’s since the 50′s. Adult Stem cells are the reason we do bone marrow transplants.

What gets me with this line of argument is the idea that finding out ASC’s can do amazing things should prevent us from looking at ESC’s. I think it’s an argument for. Knowing what we know about ASC’s, and now knowing how much more versitile ESC’s are than that, it seems to demand investigating ESC’s.

The pluripotency of ESCs is the attribute that leads to the development of teratomas in the host.

Do you have a source for that?

Pablo on October 25, 2006 at 6:53 PM

Esthier,

But that is what they are doing. They’ve used bone marrow to grow several different organs.

That’s plasticity, or multipotency. It is still not pluripotency, and it has limits. It is not the same thing. It is a wondeful thing, and it demonstrates the potential of this area of investigation. But it is simply not an either/or proposition, and it isn’t being pursued as if it were.

Pablo on October 25, 2006 at 6:59 PM

I believe this is what is known as “attacking the messenger”, a tactic associated with people who are incapable of attacking the message. Asshole.

What is his message, other than “Look how sick I am and vote to help me!”

The messenger is the message in these ads. That’s why Fox is in them. They really son’t have a damned thing to do with the Senate race. They’re pandering celebrity plugs and a flank attack on the Amendment 2 front.

Really, what is Fox’s message?

Pablo on October 25, 2006 at 7:10 PM

Do you have a source for that?

From the NIH page:
http://stemcells.nih.gov/StemCells/Templates/StemCellContentPage.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7b3C35BAB6-0FE6-4C4E-95F2-2CB61B58D96D%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2finfo%2fglossary%2easp&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest#Stemcells

Teratoma— Scientists verify that they have established a human embryonic stem cell (hESC) line by injecting putative stem cells into mice with a dysfunctional immune system. Since the injected cells cannot be destroyed by the mouse’s immune system, they survive and form a multi-layered benign tumor called a teratoma. Even though tumors are not usually a desirable outcome, in this test, the teratomas serve to establish the ability of a stem cell to give rise to all cell types in the body. This is because the teratomas contain cells derived from each of the three embryonic germ layers.

IrishEi on October 25, 2006 at 7:33 PM

Well, that sucks for immune deficient engineered mouse models, doesn’t it? Then again, when you’re a rodent genetically manipulated to be immune deficient for research purposes, the handwriting is on the wall for you pretty early on.

How does that point to pluripotency causing teratoma? Do you know that wouldn’t happen in such a mouse with various multipotent cells?

Pablo on October 25, 2006 at 7:52 PM

You know what, Pablo? I’m not going to do your research for you. If you don’t even know why they had to use immunodeficient mice then you really don’t know what you’re talking about. Enough said.

Meanwhile, I am leaving this blog now and will have my tea while I curl up with a good book. I suggest you do the same. You’ve been cranky all day–arguing with nearly everyone on this thread.

IrishEi on October 25, 2006 at 7:59 PM

If you don’t even know why they had to use immunodeficient mice then you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

They use immunodeficient mice so they won’t fight off the foreign material. They are bred to be susceptible to disease. But the question of why they use such mouse models is unimportant in regard to the effects of pluripotency.

Let’s review. You said:

The pluripotency of ESCs is the attribute that leads to the development of teratomas in the host.

I asked for a source to support that claim, and you pointed to something that doesn’t say what you’re claiming it said. Are you Do you know Glenn Greenwald?

The moon is made of cotton candy. but don’t ask me how I know it, do your own research.

You’ve been cranky all day–arguing with nearly everyone on this thread.

Cranky? Nah, you haven’t seen me when I’m cranky. Trust me on that one. I do appreciate lively debate though. Oh, and this conversation has been going on for 3-4 days now…

Pablo on October 26, 2006 at 3:21 AM

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