Red Ken: UK veil controversy “echoes” Nazi persecution of Jews

posted at 12:35 pm on October 24, 2006 by Allahpundit

He’s a socialist, which makes everyone to his right a Nazi or some form of supremacist/separatist. Including people who oppose supremacism/separatism:

“It is quite clear that the problems we have in Britain are not because Muslims wish to be separate … I think the entire debate has been totally lopsided as though Muslims were somehow at fault for this,” Mr Livingstone said.

“That echoes very much the demonology of Nazi Germany when Hitler said it was the Jews’ fault and the problems were brought upon themselves. There is a faint echo of that in a lot of the rubbish we have been seeing in the media recently.”

If Muslims are the Jews in this scenario, how come almost all the violent threats seem to be coming from their side? In Italy, too:

Daniela Santanche recently published a critical book on living conditions for Muslim women called Woman Denied…

“A veil,” she said, “is never a symbol of liberty and it is not required in religion”.

“And in our country,” she went on, “there is a law which forbids – for reason of terrorism – people to go around with masks on”.

Her comments brought a furious response from the imam who appeared alongside her.

Ali Abu Shwaima, from a mosque near Milan, called her an infidel.

“I will not allow the ignorant to talk about Islam,” he said. “The veil is an obligation required by God.”

Ms Santanche has now been offered police protection for her own safety.

Anne Applebaum explains the problem with the veil:

[A]t a much simpler level, surely it is also true that the full-faced veil — the niqab, burqa or chador — causes such deep reactions in the West not so much because of its political or religious symbolism but because it is extremely impolite. Just as it is considered rude to enter a Balinese temple wearing shorts, so, too, is it considered rude, in a Western country, to hide one’s face. We wear masks when we want to frighten, when we are in mourning or when we want to conceal our identities. To a Western child — or even an adult — a woman clad from head to toe in black looks like a ghost. Thieves and actors hide their faces in the West; honest people look you straight in the eye.


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This is good stuff.

But you know what I need?

I need another helping of Rosie O’Donell craziness. You know, the primo stuff, with all sorts of moral equivalence and nuance.

5…4…3…2…

EFG on October 24, 2006 at 12:38 PM

With everybody comparing everything to Nazi’s these days, it just diminishes what the Nazi’s were. It’s probably part of the intent, too.

Everyone is a nazi these days.

Want to put up a 4 way stop? Nazi.
Want to not let buildings blow up? Nazi.
Want to protect the borders? Nazi.
Want to let kids eat peanut butter sandwiches? Nazi.

lorien1973 on October 24, 2006 at 12:49 PM

Its similar to the persecution of the jews?
Why don’t you ask the muslims about persecution of the jews? I’m sure they had to take a course on that at their madrassa and mosque

btw Lorien, your SOOOO on hte money.
I’m so tired of hearing hitler this and nazi that.

Defector01 on October 24, 2006 at 1:08 PM

Let’s have some fun with anagrams:

veil
vile
evil

- phil

phile on October 24, 2006 at 1:08 PM

It always amazes me how the left will call anything to the right of their poisition “Nazi”, but refuse to acknowledge the parallels between the current rise of the Islamist Empire, soon to be the new Caliphate, and 1930s Germany, between Ahmadinejad pounding the podium convincing his people of their invincibillity and future world domination and Hitler doing the same. Between the insistance of the Islamic world that the rest of the world surrender to it’s demands or else (insert your favorite implied threat here) as Hitler did in 1937-mid 1939. Between the fevered pitch and tone of the retoric in the media of Germany pre-war, and the shrill strident retoric coming out of the “Muslim world” from Egypt to Indonesia now.

The only real consistancy I can see in the lefts accusations is that they are always calling others either what they refuse to acknoledge in its proper place, or what they actually are themselves. For instance look at what these “fighters for the rights of all” will do to shut down legitmate public debate, the twisted moral base, the tactics they use, and who they will defend.

P. James Moriarty on October 24, 2006 at 1:21 PM

Nice one phile. Who woulda thunk it? Keep them coming.

jarhead05 on October 24, 2006 at 1:37 PM

What always amazes me is how they all forget: NAZI = SOCIALISM (NATIONAL SOCIALISTS) and NAZISM is “bent” FACISM. One of the primary reasons of NAZI vs COMMUNIST during WWII was which type of socialism would prevail (type of socialism from old Europe or the “new fangled” [at the time] type of socialism coming out of Soviet Union). It gets real old hearing a bunch of screaming, all knowing libs/”progressives”/socialists/whatever referring to conservative capitalists by names which have roots in their own beliefs.

keldog on October 24, 2006 at 1:45 PM

Lou Dobbs made a good point on Bill Maher last Friday. ((Warning: don’t watch, Ben Affleck appears!))

When we go to Middle Eastern countries, American women conform to their dress code; in Asia, we conform to bowing to one another. What’s wrong with Jack Straw’s request to talk with a Muslim woman face to face?

Freedom of religion? I’d certainly accept that arguement as soon as Muslim nations tolerate other religions. Religion may be a protected institution, but so was slavery in the 19th century.

budorob on October 24, 2006 at 1:45 PM

I did some investigating on the numbers and the claim that Muslims are diproportionally targetted.

My results are here.

What I found was that Jews and Muslims are on the receiving end of about as much abuse during the time frame of the report. (Jews had slightly higher last year and will probably get more this year too)

I also found that the type of incident being reported was extremely dubious. This seems like another case of “look at me I’m the victim.”

Little Bulldogs on October 24, 2006 at 2:04 PM

So what would CAIR do if a muslim woman was asked to remove her veil to verify her age when buying alcohol?

rw on October 24, 2006 at 2:38 PM

What a dick. Every time I think I’ve heard the most anti-Jewish thing coming out of that mouth..SUPRISE..he outdoes himself. He must have a really fat bank account from all his earnest work on behalf of world-wide jihad.

Don’t get me started on the veils.

WriterMom on October 24, 2006 at 2:47 PM

What always amazes me is how they all forget: NAZI = SOCIALISM (NATIONAL SOCIALISTS) and NAZISM is “bent” FACISM. One of the primary reasons of NAZI vs COMMUNIST during WWII was which type of socialism would prevail (type of socialism from old Europe or the “new fangled” [at the time] type of socialism coming out of Soviet Union). It gets real old hearing a bunch of screaming, all knowing libs/”progressives”/socialists/whatever referring to conservative capitalists by names which have roots in their own beliefs.

keldog on October 24, 2006 at 1:45 PM

Sweet Jesus. Where do you get this stuff?

Fascism at its root is extreme nationalism–you know “Ein volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer”; socialism/communism at its root is anti-nationalism–”you know Workers of the world unite”.

honora on October 24, 2006 at 3:10 PM

I wasn’t aware that Jews were going around killing German civilians in cold blood in the 1930s. I had no idea they were blowing up planes full of passengers (is that what really happened to the Hindenburg?) and blowing up buses and trains. I had no idea they wanted all Germans to convert to Islam or die. Gee you learn something new every day.

TheBigOldDog on October 24, 2006 at 3:11 PM

Fascism at its root is extreme nationalism… socialism/communism at its root is anti-nationalism

Uhm… no. Fascism is the concept that people live to support the State. Socialism is the concept that people live to support each other. Nationalism, as defined by my dictionary, is “advocacy of national independence”. Both fascism and socialism advocate forcing someone else to live for the benefit of another (be it a person or a government). Nationalism has nothing to do with either. You can be a nationalist and still be a capitalist, or a socialist, or a theocrat.

Hootie on October 24, 2006 at 3:30 PM

It gets real old hearing a bunch of screaming, all knowing libs/”progressives”/socialists/whatever referring to conservative capitalists by names which have roots in their own beliefs.

Absolutely. Hitler and Stalin were able to cooperate in the early days because they both saw British and American capitalism as a threat to their respective “new orders.” Fascism is in fact a left-wing philosophy. Like Communism and Islamism, it appeals to a perceived, aggrieved class and preaches revenge against those who have been allegedly oppressing that class. They all stand for collectivization, state-over-the-individual and intense regulation of society. The logical extreme for the right is actually libertarianism and anarchy.

That being said, I can’t think of any contemporary Western politician – right or left – that deserves comparison to the Nazis, and to do so only cheapens the horror of that regime. I don’t expect any better from Mr. Livingstone, however.

Coyote D. on October 24, 2006 at 3:34 PM

Dammit, OldDog beat me to it. But, what the heck, here goes… Hey Mayor Jackass, JEWS DIDN’T BLOW UP ANY GERMAN TRAINS PRIOR TO THEIR PERSECUSSION! Go read a friggin’ history book! Moron.

He’s either stupid OR (or should I say AND/or) he’s just being a good little Dhimmi so that the “victims” don’t blow HIM up next time he appears in public.

Either way Ken, you’re on the wrong side of history.

Tony737 on October 24, 2006 at 4:00 PM

I stopped going to Britain 13 years ago. The only Americans stupid enough to think we are welcome in Britain are anglophiles.

mymanpotsandpans on October 24, 2006 at 4:15 PM

When Hitler complained that Jews were a danger to German Society it was obviously a lie. The Jews that fled Germany and came to America supplied the greatest contributions to mankind. Quantum mechanics, the splitting of the atom, thousands upon thousands of discoveries, inventions, innovations. Despite not even being a quarter of one percent of the worlds’ population, Jews garnered over 20% of all Nobel Prizes and more scientific discoveries than any other single group in the world. And in Germany 75 years ago, if a Jew threatened anyone it was a threat not to talk to the person anymore.

Muslims on the other hand, with 100 times more in number than Jews have won less than a pitiful handful of Nobel Prizes and in the past few hundred years contributed almost nothing in patents, discoveries, inventions, innovations, or ideas. And as for violence, Muslims do indeed treaten the very fabric of Western Culture and Civilization.

When Hitler complained about Jews, it was because they were too smart, too rich, too clever, too industrious, too peace-loving, too-etc and certainly no one lost any sleep worrying about a marauding, barbaric, vicous Jew.

When Westerners complain about Muslims, it certainly is not for any of the above reasons and no one living near a Muslim can sleep peacefully.

When Europeans complain about Jews, Jews need to walk around with body guards.

When Europeans complain about Muslims, Europeans need to walk around with body guards.

bernieg1 on October 24, 2006 at 9:57 PM

“A veil,” she said, “is never a symbol of liberty …

That’s … nice.

Axe on October 25, 2006 at 2:03 AM

Uhm… no. Fascism is the concept that people live to support the State. Socialism is the concept that people live to support each other. Nationalism, as defined by my dictionary, is “advocacy of national independence”. Both fascism and socialism advocate forcing someone else to live for the benefit of another (be it a person or a government). Nationalism has nothing to do with either. You can be a nationalist and still be a capitalist, or a socialist, or a theocrat.

Hootie on October 24, 2006 at 3:30 PM

To paraphrase Bogart, you’ve been misinformed.

The term “fascism” was coined by Mussolini in the 30′s. See below

Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production…. Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied – the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society….

After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage….

…Fascism denies, in democracy, the absur[d] conventional untruth of political equality dressed out in the garb of collective irresponsibility, and the myth of “happiness” and indefinite progress….

…iven that the nineteenth century was the century of Socialism, of Liberalism, and of Democracy, it does not necessarily follow that the twentieth century must also be a century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy: political doctrines pass, but humanity remains, and it may rather be expected that this will be a century of authority…a century of Fascism. For if the nineteenth century was a century of individualism it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism and hence the century of the State….

The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State.

honora on October 25, 2006 at 12:41 PM

Hootie: look at reference.com under nationalism

In the interwar period, the extreme nationalist movements of fascism and Nazism came to power in Italy and Germany respectively, and similar groups took over several other European countries during the late 1930s. This new wave of nationalism had powerful racist undertones, and it culminated in World War II and the Holocaust.

Compare to my post:

Fascism at its root is extreme nationalism–you know “Ein volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer”; socialism/communism at its root is anti-nationalism–”you know Workers of the world unite”.

honora on October 25, 2006 at 12:52 PM

These are merely two sides of the same coin – one is national socialism, the other is international socialism. They are not opposites. They are complementary.

Coyote D. on October 25, 2006 at 2:35 PM